Homophobia

[currentchristian]

According to Merriam-Webster (m-w.com), "homophobia" is the "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals."

 

It seems to me that most of those in the U.S. who oppose, for example, equal marriage laws for same-sex couples, non-discrimination policies that include "sexual orientation" as a "protected" category, and the general nationwide movement toward a normalization of same-sex love, often use their religious values and certain biblical writings (e.g., Genesis 19, Leviticus 18.22 & 20.13, Romans 1, I Cor. 6.9 and I Tim 1.10) as the foundation for their views.

 

Homophobia, however, may also be culturally-based and independent of any antagonism stemming from religious or biblical texts. Therefore, I'm interested in the views of those on this forum that do not make use of religious/scriptural values in determining their position, in regard to homosexuality, homosexuals, and the movement toward legal equality for gay/lesbian people.

 

Does anyone who has freed him/herself from what s/he perceives to be the shackles of religion oppose equal marriage laws, protection of gay/lesbian rights, etc.? Does anyone struggle with homophobia? (Don’t worry to state what you really think as we’re all anonymous here.)

 

-CC in MA

[Vigile]

Asimov likes butt sex and we don't like him. And that IBF character is pretty shady , but we like gays just fine around here.

[Lycorth]

It took a little time for me to overcome my hatred for homosexuals. After leaving Xianity, I began to question everything in my life, including my stance on gays. It didn't take me long to realize how lopsided my view was, and to see the light of reason pointing towards change.

 

I was always into girl on girl stuff, like most guys. I had no problems, even as a Xian, with women being bisexual or performing bisexual acts. I still love it today. After leaving Xianity, I realized that homosexuality in men makes men no worse than women who bat on both sides of the plate - or women who are lesbian for that matter.

 

Once I allowed myself to dally with this opinion, I found it easy to accept. Eventually, I found a job where a number of gay men and women happened to work, and lo and behold - they were normal folks as I was.

 

It was easy to just accept gays and bisexuals after that. Today, even though the thought of men going at it is still a big turn-off for me, I have no problem with gays, after learning they aren't the abominations the Babble says they are

[currentchristian]

Asimov likes butt sex and we don't like him. And that IBF character is pretty shady , but we like gays just fine around here.

 

Clue me in: I don't get the Asimov or the IBF references?

 

And, of course, being homosexual has no more to do with one's sexual energy or proclivities than being heterosexual or bisexual does.

 

-CC in MA

 

It took a little time for me to overcome my hatred for homosexuals. After leaving Xianity, I began to question everything in my life, including my stance on gays. It didn't take me long to realize how lopsided my view was, and to see the light of reason pointing towards change.

 

I was always into girl on girl stuff, like most guys. I had no problems, even as a Xian, with women being bisexual or performing bisexual acts. I still love it today. After leaving Xianity, I realized that homosexuality in men makes men no worse than women who bat on both sides of the plate - or women who are lesbian for that matter.

 

Once I allowed myself to dally with this opinion, I found it easy to accept. Eventually, I found a job where a number of gay men and women happened to work, and lo and behold - they were normal folks as I was.

 

It was easy to just accept gays and bisexuals after that. Today, even though the thought of men going at it is still a big turn-off for me, I have no problem with gays, after learning they aren't the abominations the Babble says they are

 

Unfortunately, some cannot think of "gay" without thinking of what they might or might not do sexually. It's a double standard, as we don't usually think about the sexual lives of our heterosexual friends, family, colleagues. Interesting (and probably common for heterosexual men)that "the thought of men going at it is...a big turn-off." While the thought of two women "going at it" is in no way erotic or exciting or interesting for me, it does not turn me off. It's just ho-hum, boring, turn the channel please.

 

Thanks for the post.

 

-CC in MA

 

 

For an overview of the policies on homosexuality/homosexuals of 47 Christian denominations, religioustolerance.org has a fine site:

 

POLICIES OF 47 CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS ON HOMOSEXUALITY

 

-CC in MA

[Vigile]

Sorry, the references will be understood by those they are directed to. It was just an inside joke.

 

I, like Varokar, got over my homophobia when I actually became aquanted with a few gay people. Sometimes I actually prefer the company of homosexuals. They can be very interesting and on average have much more class than the average hetero. Most of my friends in DC are gay. I miss them.

[roman]

I am sick and tired of homosexuals. Except for Russians (they are so hot...even the straight Russian boys kiss each other on the lips in public...ooh - russkiye mal'chiki! Bce molodetsi!), and Germans, and of course Brits. And my favorite, ex-Mormons from Utah. Other than that, forget about it.

 

Now if you were talking about the ones that I don't have a chance of ever going to bed with...well, they're just like everybody else, am I right? So what's not to like? I mean, you take away the sexual aspect and what have you got? Just some guys. With great clothes and fabulously tricked out apartments. And above-average disposable income.

[Vigile]

even the straight Russian boys kiss each other on the lips in public...ooh

 

Well, I haven't seen them do that, but they do take banjas together. You would probably enjoy the bath houses with 20-30 naked Russian men beating each other with aspen leaf brushes.

[roman]

even the straight Russian boys kiss each other on the lips in public...ooh

 

Well, I haven't seen them do that, but they do take banjas together. You would probably enjoy the bath houses with 20-30 naked Russian men beating each other with aspen leaf brushes.

Nah. I don't like men, and I'm not into S & M.

 

I know you're in St. Pete, so I'm surprised that you haven't seen Russians guys kissing. Every summer Olympics you can hear Xian gasps around the world as the young athletes greet each other with a kiss on the lips.

 

Nu, tak. Mnye bce ravno.

[Vigile]

Nu ladno, vse ravo tak vse ravo.

[sanaslove]

I know you're in St. Pete, so I'm surprised that you haven't seen Russians guys kissing. Every summer Olympics you can hear Xian gasps around the world as the young athletes greet each other with a kiss on the lips.

 

Yep, my fundie family members have problems with that. I have to hear a rant about how sickening it is up to 10 minutes after the fact.

 

But to be back on topic, and it's a very complex one at that...

 

In my own personal experiences, I have only seen outspoken critics of it (it being homosexuality in general and marriage/adoption issues) from Christians quoting the OT (which is ironic to me).

 

I agree that it could also be culturally based; but there are alot of things to be factored in. I think you would have to look at every culture individually to find that answer.

 

I can only speak in strict knowlege of my own beliefs. I was a very innocent child. Sex was never talked about, if anything remotely sexual was on TV the channel was changed etc. I had no problems with homosexuality as a kid (granted I didn't fully understand). I only had a slight problem with it when I went through my short fundie phase. And that was only because of the bible, some family members and some fellow parishoners.

 

Now that I am out of the fold I have a totally different view, and it is very freeing . I hope this helps.

[Asimov]

Does anyone who has freed him/herself from what s/he perceives to be the shackles of religion oppose equal marriage laws, protection of gay/lesbian rights, etc.? Does anyone struggle with homophobia? (Don’t worry to state what you really think as we’re all anonymous here.)

 

I don't think any group deserves special treatment and the government has no right to impose distinctions of law like that.

[currentchristian]

Does anyone who has freed him/herself from what s/he perceives to be the shackles of religion oppose equal marriage laws, protection of gay/lesbian rights, etc.? Does anyone struggle with homophobia? (Don’t worry to state what you really think as we’re all anonymous here.)

 

I don't think any group deserves special treatment and the government has no right to impose distinctions of law like that.

 

I'm not sure if you are saying that heterosexuals are now being afforded special treatment in having the right to see their opposite-sex unions recognized by the state while same-sex couples do not have this opportunity. Or if you are saying that homosexuals are seeking special treatment when they agitate for equal access to such recognition?

 

Who's the group, in your view, with/seeking special treatment? Heterosexuals or homosexuals?

 

-CC in MA

[Gaura]

In my view, denying homosexuals the right to marry is akin to gender discrimination. If Bob and Stan want to marry it is denied, but not so Bob and Fran(cine)?

 

I was perhaps a touch uneasy with homosexuals when I was Catholic, but now regard it as a probable genetic distinction with no/almost no aspect of choice about it. I view it in a similar light as left-handedness.

[Mythra]

There is nothing wrong with homosexuality that a little sustained sexual reindoctrination training won't straighten out.

 

Seriously - I think I'm just weird, but even as a christian I had no problem with homosexuality. And, I thought it wrong to condemn the practice, while at the same time turning a blind eye to the bible's prohibitions of divorce, shellfish, pork, sabbath, etc.

 

I'm irreversibly straight. But I recognize that people are people, and not everyone is the same.

 

I just watched "Brokeback Mountain" a couple of nights ago and enjoyed it a lot. I can't imagine having such deeply held feelings and having to fear for your life if anyone found out.

 

I think it's a good thing that homosexuality is slowly losing its stigma.

[Mongo]

When I was a xtian, I was not innately prejudiced against gays. I believe this is because I am suitably hetero so they don't phase or tempt me.

 

I was however influenced by the general anti-gay culture and as a single person I did not want to be aligned with gays by standing up for their rights to be treated with respect and decency. (My shame)

 

My first real contact with gays was when I went "witnessing" (Note: CTOELNC) downtown during a July celebration and ran into a handful of them. I found them intellegent and respectful. One of them jokingly said he liked my leather jacket and asked me for it. I said "no". He didn't make a big deal about it but I can see how he was pulling this right out of the NT. He said he had been studying to be a priest and left.

 

I remember he also asked what would happen if he and his boyfriend showed up at the church holding hands. I knew he would be asked not to do that or leave and I remember thinking that this was a chink in the xtian armor that I could not respond to. I would have favoured allowing them in since hearing the gospel would be more important than not seeing gay people hold hands. My brethern could not see that.

 

That encounter altered my fuzzy view on the issue and from then on I saw how decent gay people were.

 

From then on I have found that if you were friendly toward gay men, they would reciprocate even more sometimes mis-interpreting open mindedness with me being gay.

 

When I moved to a small town for work and going to Pentecostal church there, an effeminant "brother" Bill, befriended me. As a single person I was queasy in that I didn't want people to think I was gay and technically he was straight even I thought/think he was/is repressing a gay side.

 

Bill was a chatty guy and we were good friends and he always treated me well and I he. However... when my Dad died, he was determined to go to the funeral 200 miles away to "support me". Thankfully another woman friend came with him and it looked more normal so people didn't start chatting about who my effeminent friend was.

 

Is it wrong to be self-constious of this? A single guy wants single women to know he is straight. Perhaps if we could all be open about it it would not be an issue.

 

I have since worked with several gap people of varying levels of openness. I thoroughlly enjoy my contacts with them finding them more interesting, accepting, open minded and kinder than the average person. Mind you... some of them dress funny.

 

Mongo

 

 

Note: CTOELNC = Christian Trashing Of English Language Not Corrected

[Kurari]

I wasn't raised in a religious household, so it took a really long time for me to learn that homosexuality was considered bad. I think I was in middle school when I actually started becoming aware that other people had a problem with it because that's when calling each other a "fag" or a "dyke" was a popular insult.

 

I got sort of homophobic around then because I did NOT want to be associated with that at all...and not because I thought people of the same gender falling love with each other and having sex was icky or against god. I just knew I was already an unpopular kid and I absolutely did NOT want that kind of violence and stigma brought down on my head.

 

So...I guess I wasn't homophobic so much as homophobiaphobic?

[Legion]

I love gay men. The more of them there are, the less competition for me!

[currentchristian]

Now if you were talking about the ones that I don't have a chance of ever going to bed with...well, they're just like everybody else, am I right? So what's not to like? I mean, you take away the sexual aspect and what have you got? Just some guys. With great clothes and fabulously tricked out apartments. And above-average disposable income.

 

The "above-average disposable income" is true. Not having children, usually, gay people have more money to play with. Unless you have a sister with three kids, as I do, and you are the uncle who gets to help buy their senior rings, and their flute, and .... you know where I'm going... But I'd not have it any other way. Every family should have one gay uncle or lesbian aunt (or at least a childless aunt or uncle) to help take care of all the kids of all the brothers and sisters in the family!

 

-CC in MA

 

 

When I moved to a small town for work and going to Pentecostal church there, an effeminant "brother" Bill, befriended me. As a single person I was queasy in that I didn't want people to think I was gay and technically he was straight even I thought/think he was/is repressing a gay side.

 

Bill was a chatty guy and we were good friends and he always treated me well and I he. However... when my Dad died, he was determined to go to the funeral 200 miles away to "support me". Thankfully another woman friend came with him and it looked more normal so people didn't start chatting about who my effeminent friend was.

 

Is it wrong to be self-constious of this? A single guy wants single women to know he is straight. Perhaps if we could all be open about it it would not be an issue.

 

Every church has several gay brothers (and, I'm sure, lesbian sisters) like this one! If only the church would wake up about this reality. When I was a teenager, the four most involved teenage boys in the church were GAY! We didn't talk about it or maybe even know about each other. But the teenage pillars of the church were gay. Twenty+ years later, one is now a minister in the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches (the church founded by ex-pentecostal preacher Troy Perry in 1968 as a church for gay/lesbian people); one was married to a woman and was a pentecostal preacher until...yes until...you know the rest of story. One is still married to a woman. And the other one was me!

 

-CC in MA

 

 

I love gay men. The more of them there are, the less competition for me!

 

That's right!

 

-CC in MA

 

 

...

 

... regard it as a probable genetic distinction with no/almost no aspect of choice about it. I view it in a similar light as left-handedness.

 

This is an excellent way to put it, IMO. Genetic distinction...very nice thought.

 

-CC in MA

[ShackledNoMore]

I happen to be heterosexual, but I have NO issue whatsoever with homosexuals or homosexuality. Zero. Well, I'd be annoyed if a homosexual incessantly came on to me in an annoying and pushy manner after I had indicated I wasn't interested, but that's just as annoying from a heterosexual. There is no possibly way I could possibly be threatened by a homosexual, and I find it hard to imagine that mentality. I do understand that many christians condemn homosexuality on the basis of it being a sin against god, but obviously I vehemently disagree with their stance.

 

I think that it is discriminatory to allow marriage for straight couples, but not for gays.

 

I was also not very uptight about gays when I was a christian, but in my particular family, in my particular church and surroundings, as I later learned, they were particularly emphatic about purity, not having lustful thoughts, etc., even compared with other christian people/churches/denominations. ANY prurient thought or action other than sex with your spouse after marriage was so villianized, that it was really tough for homosexuality to be cast in a worse light.

 

Your hypothesis of attitudes about homosexuality being a cultural thing is interesting. Culture and religion tend to be inexorably linked. On the other hand, my personal casual observation seems to tell me that homophobia is pretty strongly correlated with both the belief in christianity/western religion and the intensity of the belief, even within American culture. It would be interesting to see a good scientific study on it.

[I Broke Free]

And that IBF character is pretty shady

 

 

Yep, and Loving It!!

[Dave]

I think that any homosexual, or differently gendered, person is crazy if they remain in a religion, such as the christian one, that says they MUST be killed.

[R. S. Martin]

I'm trying to remember when I first heard about such creatures as homosexuals. I spent most of my life in a community without radio or TV and with very little contact with "outsiders." Daily newspapers, however, were okay. I remember a minister mentioning in church that the homosexual petition for marriage rights (or whatever the issue was at the time; this would have been the seventies in Ontario) had been denied. Since we saw government and law-making forces as part and parcel of "the world," we saw the "hand of God" in this decision against gay rights. We had no doubt whatsoever that these worldly law-making forces would have naturally wanted gay rights but for some inscrutable reason they yielded under the "hand of God."

 

Fast-forward about twenty-five years to the late ninties. Life for me was unbearable because I was forbidden work that I liked. The community somehow figured out that I wasn't smart enough to teach in church-operated schools and there was no other work that did not bore me after a while. They put this down to malcontent. I knew it was deeper. Finally I took the bull by the horns and risked intentional disobedience. I knew it could cost me community membership and it did. That was the very worst thing that ever happened to me. Death would have been preferable and part of me did die. Long story short: I was condemned for being who I was born to be.

 

In my life outside I ran headlong into the gay rights issues. Inside of myself was the unshakable conviction that, no matter what my personal perferences might be, denying homosexuals equal rights was an "unforgivable" sin before God. I found myself speaking up in classrooms and churches. I did not understand this in myself but I had to speak up. I had read a short letter to the editor in a church magazine in which a man shared that as a nine-year-old child he used to cry himself to sleep because he was gay and he knew his church condemned it.

 

To me, that was all the evidence I needed; no nine year-old child worries his head about this sort of thing unless it's REAL. I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt, based on that little story, that homosexuality was NOT a choice, and therefore it was WRONG to condemn it. At long last I figured out why I was so adamant that homosexuals be given equal rights. I had been condemned for being who I was. What the churches were doing to homosexuals was the exact same thing. There are parts of us as human beings that we cannot change no matter how much we want to.

 

CC, I've been part of quite a few online fundy-liberal/nonChristian debates on gay rights. Most of the time I'm the only straight person arguing for gay rights. One thing I've learned is to pick up the cues as to whether a person in the argument is gay or straight. In an earlier post you referred to your "partner." That tipped me off. It was not absolute proof but most people talk about their wife or husband. A non-gender-specific term like "partner" is normally used by people in a same-sex relationship.

 

When I saw the title for this thread I thought, Okay, he's coming out now. I read the first post. No straight Christian shows such intense interest on the gay rights issues right out of the blue. Post 4 (we don't usually think about the sexual lives of our heterosexual friends) gave it totally away. I'm glad that in Post 18 you come right out and say it. That allows me the freedom to speak openly.

 

Knowing this, I am giving more serious thought to your screen name, esp. the "current" part. It's personal so no obligations to reply. But I am guessing that you vacilate between belief and unbelief, largely because of your sexual orientation and the position of most churches on the topic.

[I Broke Free]

Unfortunately, some cannot think of "gay" without thinking of what they might or might not do sexually.

 

You hit the nail on the head there. Just about every thread over at CF dealing with homosexuality eventually deals with gay-male sex regardless of how non-sexual the original post was. (Women very rarely make it into the discussion).

 

I have never had sex with a woman in my life. The very thought of it repels me. And you know what? I NEVER think about it when I am introduced to a heterosexual couple. Why is that? Why am I capable of not thinking about heterosexual sex when so many heterosexual men seem absolutely obsessed with something they claim to be so repulsed by?

 

I just don’t get it.

[R. S. Martin]

It would be interesting to see a good scientific study on it.

 

Yup! that would be interesting indeed. My first question: How would you go about doing such a study with the confidence that people gave their honest inner-most opinions on the topic, esp. in a country so strongly religious as the US?

 

My observation of Christians suggests that you are right; the more liberal the Christian the more tolerant of equal rights for homosexuals. For an entire congretation that accepts homosexuals as equals it seems you have to go to the very margins of Christianity, such as Universalist Unitarian. Come to think of it, I think it was on the website of the United Church of Canada that I saw a picture of a gay marriage being performed and they are Christian. Quite distinct from UU. But then, Canada is more liberal than the US, not least when it comes to religion and there are Christian churches that ordain homosexual persons to the ministry.

[Ramen666]

Current Christian....

 

Since you are open minded and everything but I used to be just on the bandwagon with Christians once. ( Hate is a strong word) however I was bitter towards gays and insulted some. (At school) and freaked out when I saw things. ( I know sounds like how many Christians are brainwashed)

I was always told GAYS ARE BAD, GOING TO HELL, THEY SHOULD HAVE NO RIGHTS....blah blah blah..." You know what I speak of Current Christian.

 

Well I became an Ex-Christian and an atheist, I began to realize something is wrong with how Christians really treat gays. I was thinking to my self " These are people and they are not dirt like Christians are saying. Heck I am saying the intolerance in Christians toward this subject and I realized they were wrong.

 

Then one interesting news story I remember at my local news. ( This can apply to you) On my local news I remember " Gay Christians" They were talking and gays were saying they believe in God. Then in goes to a preacher and he says " They can't be Christian and be gay" The pastor was all pissed off at that logic. My dad says " Ya it is wrong and un Christian" Me (stupidly) agreed with it at that time.

 

X-Men III The Last Stand is a good analogy for gays. It seems how the Christians are acting is that they want to cure them.

 

I really don't care if people are gay/lesibian it is not my bussiness so I don't really care. That is what is so sickening about the Christian cult is that they want to butt into people's bussiness's when they have no right at all.