Homophobia

[Dave]

I respect your conclusion. My conclusion is a different one. My cornerstone premise is that there is Something or Someone out there, revealed in the universe, in nature, in life.

A premise that is supported only by belief, not logic or science.

That foundational concept I embrace without it being informed or defined by anything in any book or religious scripture. That's bedrock (not the Flintstone's town!) to me. From that point, nature, philosophy, and religion add details and personalities.

Yet you actually believe in the empty tomb story of the NT.

[currentchristian]

Yet you actually believe in the empty tomb story of the NT.

 

I do.

 

-CC in MA

[Guest rumpelstiltskin]

I'd like to know more about when the Bible began to be called "the word of God." Naming it "the word of God" distorts its purpose, seems to me.

 

 

 

Yes, I agree. I believe God 'speaks' to us in all sorts of ways

 

R

[Guest rumpelstiltskin]

Sorry! Don't know how to do the Quote thingys

Help?

[Dave]

I'd like to know more about when the Bible began to be called "the word of God." Naming it "the word of God" distorts its purpose, seems to me.

No, it plays right into the real purpose; political control, and power.

Yes, I agree. I believe God 'speaks' to us in all sorts of ways

All of them make believe since the god itself is make believe.

[Ramen666]

So I went to the internet and was just investigating what Christians think of gays that are Christians. I went to focusonthefamily.org. Right off the bat before the essay it calls these people ignorant. Here is the essay I found , I think Current Christian may need to see this:

 

Pro-Gay Theology: 'I'm a Believer, and I'm Gay'

 

If the notions of truth and doctrine are becoming unimportant to Christians, can the idea of sin survive?

Print this page Print this series Forward to a friend Articles within this seriesOverview

Next Steps / Related Information

by Joe Dallas

To the biblically ignorant, general pro-gay religious arguments can pass for truth. In the light of Scripture, however, they do not hold up under scrutiny.

 

Religious argument #2: "I'm a born-again believer and I'm gay. How can that be, if homosexuality is wrong?"

This argument is most often promoted by a declaration: I'm gay and Christian, which is living proof you can be both! Mel White, upon his installation as pastor of America's largest gay congregation, made a similar affirmation: “Now, thank God, after thirty years of struggle, I can say at last who I really am. I am gay. I am proud. And God loves me without reservation.”1 The message, then, is that if a person is truly born again and homosexual, the two must be compatible.

 

Response: The argument is illogical in that it assumes if one is a Christian, and if one is loved by God, then what one does must be right in God's sight.

We can assume Dr. White's assertions are true: he is gay, he says he is proud (and no one is in a position to say otherwise) and God loves him. But does God's love for him, or Dr. White's pride in being gay, justify homosexuality itself? Hardly. And while it is beyond the scope of this article to enter into the debate over eternal security ("once saved, always saved"), let us remember that Christians do not automatically become non-Christian just because they are sinning. The fact they are sinning -- even if they do not realize it -- does not automatically nullify their salvation. But neither does their salvation legitimize their sin. A Christian may, indeed, be openly homosexual; that is no proof homosexuality and Christianity are compatible. In fact, a Christian may be openly sinning; that is no proof sin and Christianity are compatible, either.

 

Ananias and Sapphira, a husband and wife mentioned in Acts 5, were evidently believers. Yet their sin of hypocrisy (pretending to give more money to the church than they actually did) cost them their lives. They were Christians, and they were in serious error. Their error did not mean they were not Christian; their Christianity did not legitimize their error. The Apostle Peter was, on one occasion at least, afraid to be seen associating with Gentiles, for fear of reprisals from Jews who felt Jews and Gentiles should never mix. So when Jewish people were not around, he was willing to eat with Gentile friends; when Jews were present, he avoided Gentiles (Galatians 2:11-13). His hypocrisy in the face of prejudice was wrong, yet no one doubts he was a Christian. Yet that in no way justified his hypocrisy.

 

In other words, being a Christian is no indication, in and of itself, that your life is pleasing to God. Any honest believer knows this. It is a waste of time to argue intangibles, such as whether or not a 'gay Christian' is truly born again, or "saved." We may argue that if he continues in sin, he risks hardening his heart toward God, or reaping corruption, since God is not mocked. But we cannot see inside his soul to determine how hardened or deceived he may be. No matter how proud, confident or loved by God a person is, he can be walking in darkness without knowing it. That is exactly why we have an objective standard by which to judge our actions. "Take heed unto thyself," Paul told Timothy, "and unto the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee" (1 Timothy 4:16).

 

Saying "I'm Christian and gay" proves nothing. The question shouldn't be: Can a person be homosexual and still belong to God? But rather: Is homosexuality right or wrong according to the Bible?

 

Religious argument #3: "I attend a gay church where the gifts of the Spirit and the presence of God are manifest. How can that be, if homosexuality is wrong?"

When the late Rev. Sylvia Pennington, a defender of the pro-gay theology, attended her first gay church, she still believed homosexuality was wrong. But something happened to change her mind: “I became aware of the Holy Spirit's presence hovering around, about and within me. They [gay Christians] were sensing the same Spirit that I sensed and loving God back as I was. They were actually worshiping God. And God was there -- undeniably there!”2 The argument, then, is that if God's presence and gifts are manifest in a gay church, it is evidence that God accepts and blesses homosexuality.

 

"One of the most popular errors in the realm of Christian ethics has been the effort to make 'love' an omnipotent spiritual quality which has the power to sanctify anything that is done in its name."

Response: The argument is misleading in that it assumes love sanctifies a relationship.

It is hard these days to say love is not the final standard for right and wrong. Love is nice, after all; in our culture, it has been nearly deified as something so intense and beautiful, it justifies almost anything done in its name. And with all the hatred and violence in the world, why knock a loving relationship between any two people? Because love, in and of itself, does not make a relationship right. In fact, contrary to the touchy-feeling wisdom of the times, love is not always such a good thing. An essay on homosexuality and ethics puts it well: “One of the most popular errors in the realm of Christian ethics has been the effort to make love an omnipotent spiritual quality which has the power to sanctify anything that is done its name.”3

 

Love can, according to Jesus, interfere with God's plan for an individual. He warns His followers that love for anyone, no matter how legitimate the relationship, becomes sin when it surpasses our love for Him (Matthew 10:37). King Solomon, in a similar vein, loved his foreign wives. Problem was, they turned his heart away from God (1 Kings 11:3-4). In his case, love became a snare.

 

Love is not enough to justify a relationship. An unmarried Christian couple may be very much in love; if they become sexually involved before marriage, it will still be sin, no matter how much love went into it. And it will still be wrong. A married man can fall deeply in love with a woman other than his wife; that will never sanctify adultery.

 

Likewise, two men, or women, may be in love. Their love may run very deep, they may pledge fidelity to each other and live as happily as any married heterosexual couple. Again, that will not, of itself, justify a homosexual relationship. Scripture places boundaries on human relationships, offering no compromise, even if love is present and desires to cross those boundaries. If a form of sexual relating is wrong, it remains wrong no matter what degree of love goes along with it.

 

We would rather be nice. Indeed, today we see a strange tendency creeping into the church: "niceness" is taking precedence over truth. Immorality -- even among Christian leaders -- is going unconfronted, and many churches seem more concerned with making people comfortable than arousing in them a sense of their need for God.

 

In such an environment, it is no wonder erroneous teachings like the pro-gay theology are flourishing. Evangelist and Pastor Greg Laurie summed up the problem well: “What is being depicted to individuals is a 'user-friendly' God who will smile benignly down upon their lifestyles of choice, as they continue to live as they like.”4

 

While the general religious arguments of the pro-gay theology may compel us towards "niceness," the God we represent places a higher premium on truth than accommodation. May we, by His grace, never shun the two-fold mandate to speak the truth, in love.

 

This article was used by permission from Exodus International, North America. Exodus is a nonprofit, interdenominational Christian organization promoting the message of "Freedom from homosexuality through the power of Jesus Christ.” Since 1976, Exodus has grown to include over 100 local ministries in the USA and Canada. They are also linked with other Exodus world regions outside of North America, totaling almost 150 ministries in 17 countries. Within both the Christian and secular communities, Exodus has challenged those who respond to homosexuals with ignorance and fear, and those who uphold homosexuality as a valid orientation. These extremes fail to convey the fullness of redemption found in Jesus Christ, a gift which is available to all who commit their life and their sexuality to Him.

 

 

 

I am sorry I am not gay but if there was a hell Focus on the Family needs to burn in it. I support freedoms and rights and Christians are trying to take it away.

[currentchristian]

So I went to the internet and was just investigating what Christians think of gays that are Christians. I went to focusonthefamily.org. Right off the bat before the essay it calls these people ignorant. Here is the essay I found , I think Current Christian may need to see this:

 

----- ** ------

 

I am sorry I am not gay but if there was a hell Focus on the Family needs to burn in it. I support freedoms and rights and Christians are trying to take it away.

 

Thank you, Ramen666. I am very aware of Focus on the Family. (I'm on their mailing list so I can keep up with what they are saying.) I also am aware of Exodus International and Joe Dallas. There's no secret that some Christians believe as Dr. Dobson and Focus on the Family do.

 

This is what some Christians believe. Not all. I could link to several dozen, or hundreds, of websites of Christians and Christian groups that feel quite the opposite.

 

As you know, I do not believe there is a hellfire, but even if I did I would not want Focus on the Family to be there. I look forward to a day in which they are shown their errors and I am shown my errors and we all unite in peace.

 

-CC

[Ramen666]

My parents are on the mailing list still for newsletters so I see what they send out. Before my parents don't support them much anymore after a few of their incidents. Since you are on the mailing list I am assuming you got the last thing they sent out in a letter form. Also asking for money anyway you saw it is condeming rights of gays and junk like that. You read that two sided paper and saw what it said it is sickening to the extreme and I am glad you are aware of it.

 

If there is one Christian group I hate the most it has to be Focus on the Family because of there discrimination and trying to FORCE religion on people and trying to tell people OUT OF THERE RELIGION how to raise their kids. Anyway back on topic I don't understand how you are a Christian when Christians hate you. I just boggles my mind and I just don't get it I guess. I will make an analogy it is like a Jew supporting Hitler.

[currentchristian]

My parents are on the mailing list still for newsletters so I see what they send out. Before my parents don't support them much anymore after a few of their incidents. Since you are on the mailing list I am assuming you got the last thing they sent out in a letter form. Also asking for money anyway you saw it is condeming rights of gays and junk like that. You read that two sided paper and saw what it said it is sickening to the extreme and I am glad you are aware of it.

 

If there is one Christian group I hate the most it has to be Focus on the Family because of there discrimination and trying to FORCE religion on people and trying to tell people OUT OF THERE RELIGION how to raise their kids. Anyway back on topic I don't understand how you are a Christian when Christians hate you. I just boggles my mind and I just don't get it I guess. I will make an analogy it is like a Jew supporting Hitler.

 

Oh, yes, I always read their shrieks of horror about this, that, and the other thing. But most Christians do not hate gay people. A few, such as the Phelps family, do. (I watched the video clip on the home page of this forum of three Phelps family members on the Tyra talk show. Very scarey, to me.) Many Christians do not at all condemn homosexuality or homosexuals. Your analogy, therefore, breaks down. Christians are not deporting gays, incarcerating them in concentation camps, executing them.

 

But I do share your concern about the vitriolic violence contained in some views of some Christian groups, like Focus on the Family when it speaks against gay people.

 

-CC

[Kalidasa]

Does anyone who has freed him/herself from what s/he perceives to be the shackles of religion oppose equal marriage laws, protection of gay/lesbian rights, etc.? Does anyone struggle with homophobia? (Don’t worry to state what you really think as we’re all anonymous here.)

No on both points.

 

I have never been homophobic. I've said this before - even while I was a Christian, I saw the LGBT members of the world community as deserving of exactly the same level of respect and legal rights that are afforded to the rest of us. I still feel the same way. I think I would be slightly hypocritical if I didn't, considering my own orientation.

 

My family, on the other hand, well...

[currentchristian]

Just had an interesting talk with my 19-year-old niece. She was not raised in a religious home; I'm not even sure she's ever been to church with her mother, my sister. But like most in her area, she believes in God, just as she believes in Mars or Jupiter. She's in college now, and something came up about the Bible and she had no idea. We talked about it a little. Then she said something very interesting, "The last time I tried a church, about two years ago, the first Sunday I was there the preacher talked about how bad homosexuality is. I said to myself, 'That's my last time in this church.'" She never went back, and she had not "tried" another church since.

 

Just passing on what I thought was an interesting comment from a very typical 19-year-old young woman.

 

-CC

[Lycorth]

She sounds very intelligent, CC.

[riverbank]

If someone is gay and happily in a gay relationship, fair play to them I say. There is no excuse for homophobia, just because somebody's sexual preference is different to yours, doesn't give you any right to judge them. It's not doing anyone any harm is it?

[currentchristian]

She sounds very intelligent, CC.

 

Thank you, Varokhar. She surely is. I'm very proud of her.

 

-CC

[R. S. Martin]

Oh, yes, I always read their shrieks of horror about this, that, and the other thing. But most Christians do not hate gay people. A few, such as the Phelps family, do. (I watched the video clip on the home page of this forum of three Phelps family members on the Tyra talk show. Very scarey, to me.) Many Christians do not at all condemn homosexuality or homosexuals. Your analogy, therefore, breaks down. Christians are not deporting gays, incarcerating them in concentation camps, executing them.

 

But I do share your concern about the vitriolic violence contained in some views of some Christian groups, like Focus on the Family when it speaks against gay people.

 

-CC

 

If you ever get around to communicating with gays in the Buckle of the Bible Belt you might change your views about how accepting Christians are of gays. Some gays there live in danger for their lives.

[Jella]

If you ever get around to communicating with gays in the Buckle of the Bible Belt you might change your views about how accepting Christians are of gays. Some gays there live in danger for their lives.

 

The midwest is not so great either.

 

In my view, if they don't accept civil unions for gays, then they don't approve of gay people period. I'm sure there is plenty of lip-service to their tolerance, hell I've heard that from many christians, but the proof is in the pudding, and if your truly accepting, then you won't object to something that has absolutely nothing to do with you.

[currentchristian]

Oh, yes, I always read their shrieks of horror about this, that, and the other thing. But most Christians do not hate gay people. A few, such as the Phelps family, do. (I watched the video clip on the home page of this forum of three Phelps family members on the Tyra talk show. Very scarey, to me.) Many Christians do not at all condemn homosexuality or homosexuals. Your analogy, therefore, breaks down. Christians are not deporting gays, incarcerating them in concentation camps, executing them.

 

But I do share your concern about the vitriolic violence contained in some views of some Christian groups, like Focus on the Family when it speaks against gay people.

 

-CC

 

If you ever get around to communicating with gays in the Buckle of the Bible Belt you might change your views about how accepting Christians are of gays. Some gays there live in danger for their lives.

 

I lived in said buckle -- or very near to it in southeastern Missouri - for 32 years before moving to Massachusetts in 1997. There is opposition to gay equality in many places; only one state of 50 allows full access to marriage for same-sex couples and that, happily, is the one I live in. Few U.S. states are rushing to provide equal rights for gay people.

 

It is true that there is less awareness or understanding of gay people in some areas of the U.S., perhaps like the Midwest and South. But no gay person I ever knew living anywhere was in danger of their lives. Of course, there definitely are random acts of violence against gay people and many gay kids especially suffer and that's outrageous and must stop, but I think it's more dangerous to walk down the streets of many of our urban areas at night than to be a gay person in any rural area, including the Bible Belt. I hope for a day, however, when all are safe wherever they are and whoever they happen to be!

 

It is true that the primary source for opposition to gay rights is biblical passages such as Genesis 19, Romans 1, Leviticus 18 and 20. No doubt. But that will change, eventually -- I hope.

 

-CC

[currentchristian]

If you ever get around to communicating with gays in the Buckle of the Bible Belt you might change your views about how accepting Christians are of gays. Some gays there live in danger for their lives.

 

The midwest is not so great either.

 

In my view, if they don't accept civil unions for gays, then they don't approve of gay people period. I'm sure there is plenty of lip-service to their tolerance, hell I've heard that from many christians, but the proof is in the pudding, and if your truly accepting, then you won't object to something that has absolutely nothing to do with you.

 

I agree with your point, Jella, that equal access to civil marriage/unions for same-sex couples is the litmus test for how welcoming a state is.

 

I regret that only one state allows full marriage rights and only two (Vermont and Connecticut) provide for civil unions (marriage, without the word "marriage" besmirched by same-sex couples).

 

In my view, even if one opposes homosexuality and homosexual unions on religious grounds, there is no reason to fail to support equality in civil law. For example, many oppose divorce on religious grounds, yet who argues that the civil government should not allow for civil divorce? Another example: While I don't smoke or use alcohol, I support the right of those who choose to use these substances to do so, as long as the drinker doesn't drive and the smoker doesn't blow smoke in my face. We must learn to separate our own moral/religious/ethical values from civil law.

 

-CC

[currentchristian]

From today's New York Times....-CC

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

December 12, 2006

Gay and Evangelical, Seeking Paths of Acceptance

By NEELA BANERJEE

 

RALEIGH, N.C. — Justin Lee believes that the Virgin birth was real, that there is a heaven and a hell, that salvation comes through Christ alone and that he, the 29-year-old son of Southern Baptists, is an evangelical Christian.

 

Just as he is certain about the tenets of his faith, Mr. Lee also knows he is gay, that he did not choose it and cannot change it.

 

To many people, Mr. Lee is a walking contradiction, and most evangelicals and gay people alike consider Christians like him horribly deluded about their faith. “I’ve gotten hate mail from both sides,” said Mr. Lee, who runs gaychristian.net, a Web site with 4,700 registered users that mostly attracts gay evangelicals.

 

The difficulty some evangelicals have in coping with same-sex attraction was thrown into relief on Sunday when the pastor of a Denver megachurch, the Rev. Paul Barnes, resigned after confessing to having sex with men. Mr. Barnes said he had often cried himself to sleep, begging God to end his attraction to men.

 

His departure followed by only a few weeks that of the Rev. Ted Haggard, then the president of the National Association of Evangelicals and the pastor of a Colorado Springs megachurch, after a male prostitute said Mr. Haggard had had a relationship with him for three years.

 

Though he did not publicly admit to the relationship, in a letter to his congregation, Mr. Haggard said that he was “guilty of sexual immorality” and that he had struggled all his life with impulses he called “repulsive and dark.”

 

While debates over homosexuality have upset many Christian and Jewish congregations, gay evangelicals come from a tradition whose leaders have led the fight against greater acceptance of homosexuals.

 

Gay evangelicals seem to have few paths carved out for them: they can leave religion behind; they can turn to theologically liberal congregations that often differ from the tradition they grew up in; or they can enter programs to try to change their behavior, even their orientation, through prayer and support.

 

But as gay men and lesbians grapple with their sexuality and an evangelical upbringing they cherish, some have come to accept both. And like other Christians who are trying to broaden the definition of evangelical to include other, though less charged, concerns like the environment and AIDS, gay evangelicals are trying to expand the understanding of evangelical to include them, too.

 

“A lot of people are freaked out because their only exposure to evangelicalism was a bad one, and a lot ask, ‘Why would you want to be part of a group that doesn’t like you very much?’ ” Mr. Lee said. “But it’s not about membership in groups. It’s about what I believe. Just because some people who believe the same things I do aren’t very loving doesn’t mean I stop believing what I do.”

 

The most well-known gay evangelical may be the Rev. Mel White, a former seminary professor and ghostwriter for the Rev. Jerry Falwell. Mr. White, who came out publicly in 1993, helped found Soulforce, a group that challenges Christian denominations and other institutions regarding their stance on homosexuality.

 

But over the last 30 years, rather than push for change, gay evangelicals have mostly created organizations where they are accepted.

 

Members of Evangelicals Concerned, founded in 1975 by a therapist from New York, Ralph Blair, worship in cities including Denver, New York and Seattle. Web sites have emerged, like Christianlesbians.com and Mr. Lee’s gaychristian.net, whose members include gay people struggling with coming out, those who lead celibate lives and those in relationships.

 

Justin Cannon, 22, a seminarian who grew up in a conservative Episcopal parish in Michigan, started two Web sites, including an Internet dating site for gay Christians.

 

“About 90 percent of the profiles say ‘Looking for someone with whom I can share my faith and that it would be a central part of our relationship,’ ” Mr. Cannon said, “so not just a life partner but someone with whom they can connect spiritually.”

 

But for most evangelicals, gay men and lesbians cannot truly be considered Christian, let alone evangelical.

 

“If by gay evangelical is meant someone who claims both to abide by the authority of Scripture and to engage in a self-affirming manner in homosexual unions, then the concept gay evangelical is a contradiction,” Robert A. J. Gagnon, associate professor of New Testament at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, said in an e-mail message.

 

“Scripture clearly, pervasively, strongly, absolutely and counterculturally opposes all homosexual practice,” Dr. Gagnon said. “I trust that gay evangelicals would argue otherwise, but Christian proponents of homosexual practice have not made their case from Scripture.”

 

In fact, both sides look to Scripture. The debate is largely over seven passages in the Bible about same-sex couplings. Mr. Gagnon and other traditionalists say those passages unequivocally condemn same-sex couplings.

 

Those who advocate acceptance of gay people assert that the passages have to do with acts in the context of idolatry, prostitution or violence. The Bible, they argue, says nothing about homosexuality as it is largely understood today as an enduring orientation, or about committed long-term, same-sex relationships.

 

For some gay evangelicals, their faith in God helped them override the biblical restrictions people preached to them. One lesbian who attends Pullen Memorial Baptist Church in Raleigh said she grew up in a devout Southern Baptist family and still has what she calls the “faith of a child.” When she figured out at 13 that she was gay, she believed there must have been something wrong with the Bible for condemning her.

 

“I always knew my own heart: that I loved the Lord, I loved Jesus, loved the church and felt the Spirit move through me when we sang,” said the woman, who declined to be identified to protect her partner’s privacy. “I felt that if God created me, how is that wrong?”

 

But most evangelicals struggle profoundly with reconciling their faith and homosexuality, and they write to people like Mr. Lee.

 

There is the 65-year-old minister who is a married father and gay. There are the teenagers considering suicide because they have been taught that gay people are an abomination. There are those who have tried the evangelical “ex-gay” therapies and never became straight.

 

Mr. Lee said he and his family, who live in Raleigh, have been through almost all of it. His faith was central to his life from an early age, he said. He got the nickname Godboy in high school. But because of his attraction to other boys, he wept at night and begged God to change him. He was certain God would, but when that did not happen, he said, it called everything into question.

 

He knew no one who was gay who could help, and he could not turn to his church. So for a year, Mr. Lee went to the library almost every day with a notebook and the bright blue leather-bound Bible his parents had given him. He set up his Web site to tell his friends what he was learning through his readings, but e-mail rolled in from strangers, because, he says, other gay evangelicals came to understand they were not alone.

 

“I told them I don’t have the answers,” Mr. Lee said, “but we can pray together and see where God takes us.”

 

But even when they accept themselves, gay evangelicals often have difficulty finding a community. They are too Christian for many gay people, with the evangelical rock they listen to and their talk of loving God. Mr. Lee plans to remain sexually abstinent until he is in a long-term, religiously blessed relationship, which would make him a curiosity in straight and gay circles alike.

 

Gay evangelicals seldom find churches that fit. Congregations and denominations that are open to gay people are often too liberal theologically for evangelicals. Yet those congregations whose preaching is familiar do not welcome gay members, those evangelicals said.

 

Clyde Zuber, 49, and Martin Fowler, 55, remember sitting on the curb outside Lakeview Baptist Church in Grand Prairie, Tex., almost 20 years ago, Sunday after Sunday, reading the Bible together, after the pastor told them they were not welcome inside. The men met at a Dallas church and have been together 23 years. In Durham, N.C., they attend an Episcopal church and hold a Bible study for gay evangelicals every Friday night at their home.

 

“Our faith is the basis of our lives,” said Mr. Fowler, a soft-spoken professor of philosophy. “It means that Jesus is the Lord of our household, that we resolve differences peacefully and through love.”

 

Their lives seem a testament to all that is changing and all that holds fast among evangelicals. Their parents came to their commitment ceremony 20 years ago, their decision ultimately an act of loyalty to their sons, Mr. Zuber said.

 

But Mr. Zuber’s sister and brother-in-law in Virginia remain convinced that the couple is sinning. “They’re worried we’re going to hell,” Mr. Zuber said. “They say, ‘We love you, but we’re concerned.’ ”

 

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/12/us/12eva...agewanted=print

[Sexton Blake]

I am somewhat old fashioned in that I think sex belongs out of public sight. I do not give a damn about what people get up to in private. Nothing to do with me. But when people shove their lifestyle in my face, they invite comment. There is no doubt that some gays have ruined it for the rest, by drilling holes in toilet walls, groping men in crowds, etc. Why can't they just get on with their lives instead of shouting their sexuality from the roof tops?

 

I am in Bangkok at present and pretty much anything goes here. You see many sad and some horrible sights, of men who have had a sex change, or have just had breasts implanted, transvestites, or who just wear heavy make-up and long hair, etc. Very few can actually pass as a woman and some definitely not (imagine seeing an ugly muscle man, then add breasts and a heavily made up face).

[currentchristian]

I am somewhat old fashioned in that I think sex belongs out of public sight. I do not give a damn about what people get up to in private. Nothing to do with me. But when people shove their lifestyle in my face, they invite comment. There is no doubt that some gays have ruined it for the rest, by drilling holes in toilet walls, groping men in crowds, etc. Why can't they just get on with their lives instead of shouting their sexuality from the roof tops?

 

I am in Bangkok at present and pretty much anything goes here. You see many sad and some horrible sights, of men who have had a sex change, or have just had breasts implanted, transvestites, or who just wear heavy make-up and long hair, etc. Very few can actually pass as a woman and some definitely not (imagine seeing an ugly muscle man, then add breasts and a heavily made up face).

 

You make a very interesting point that makes another even more interesting point. You wrote: "There is no doubt that some gays have ruined it for the rest..."

 

Why should the behavior of "some gays" have anything to do with the rest of the gays? The behavior of some white men does not in any way "bleed over" into our views of other white men. The behavior of some heterosexual men does not "bleed over" into our views of other heterosexual men. The fact that some witness the behavior of some gay men and draw universal conclusions about all gay men is heterosexist and/or homophobic. Seems to me.

 

-CC

[twincats]

I was raised Lutheran (LCMS) and homosexuality was NEVER discussed. I became aware of homosexuals in high school, but never knew of any. Ditto for my 8 years in the AF. I became acquainted with a lesbian couple through a friend of mine about ten years ago; theirs was a sad story, all they wanted was to be together after one of them had been through a sham marriage to please her fundy parents. That was the first time I ever thought about same sex marriage.

 

I think any two people who care deeply for one another and want to make an official commitment (with all the rights and responsibilities contained therein) should be able to.

 

In an earlier post you referred to your "partner." That tipped me off. It was not absolute proof but most people talk about their wife or husband. A non-gender-specific term like "partner" is normally used by people in a same-sex relationship.

 

I watch BBC a lot and it seem to be quite common in Britain with both hetero and same sex couples.

 

I think that has something to do with us straight males getting excited watching two women doing their thing. I have no idea why that is?

 

That is a very interesting question I have wondered about, too. I wonder, Do heterosexual women enjoy watching two men interacting sexually?

 

-CC in MA

 

I don't know if I enjoy it, but I'm willing to give it a looky-see.

 

My biggest problem with Christianity is the attitude toward sex in general. I think sex is a good thing if practiced responsibly. Abstinence sucks and is unrealistic in any case, IMO.

 

As a married, hetero female who is childless by choice, I am interested in same sex marriage for selfish reasons as well because of the arguments that have been presented by some of the anti-same sex marriage groups that marriage exists solely for the production and rearing of children. I find that argument threatening.

[Taphophilia]

When I decoverted from Christianity, I realized my entire life philosophy was Fundamenatlist Christianity. Not only had I believed the core tennents of the religion, I also believed the right wing spewing demi-gods of the faith like James Dobson, Pat Robertson, Rush Limbaugh etc. I had been a Pro-Life, anti-gay, Theocon.

I had to examine every view that I ever held, and decide if that is what I truly thought or if it was because of the rhetoric that I had been fed most of my life.

I started hanging out in Pagan coffeehouses and other counter culture establishments that I would have considered infested with demonic activity when I had been a Christian. I wanted to break away from everything I had known and experience what other people, who were not Christian, were like. I was no longer a Christian, and it wasn't possible for me to ever return to it. The Christians that I had known irritated me to no end with all their "Christianese". It was a language I no longer wanted to hear, much less speak. I was also trying to find my place in the world without Christianity.

Not only did the gay community frequent these places, but also in most cases they were owned by someone whose sexual orientation happened to be gay. Though, all were welcome. I met many interesting people, gay men, lesbians, transgenders, former ACLU workers and my concepts of what the world was, increased with every person that I met. My corner of the world enlarged and I saw the world's many colors and flavors that I had never been allowed to see before. My eyes, my heart, and my mind had been opened.

[I Broke Free]

Why can't they just get on with their lives instead of shouting their sexuality from the roof tops?

 

 

The only time I have ever heard a man “shout their sexuality from the roof top” is when I have witnessed some heterosexual men in an environment where their heterosexuality might be in question. You cannot believe just how quickly they announce to everyone that they are NOT GAY. Why is it so important?

 

When I first started coming to terms with being gay in my late teens, I made the terrible mistake of seeking xtian counseling. The therapist asked me why I would ever tell anyone I was gay? He stated that you never see straight people announcing their sexual orientation. At the time I agreed with him, be he could not have been more wrong. Most straight people will certainly clarify their orientation if it is in question. I just do the same thing. There is an assumption of heterosexuality when you first meet someone; after all it is much more common. While I rarely tell someone I am gay outright, I often bring up my partner in a way that any heterosexual would bring up their spouse in conversation.

[Jella]

I am somewhat old fashioned in that I think sex belongs out of public sight. I do not give a damn about what people get up to in private. Nothing to do with me. But when people shove their lifestyle in my face, they invite comment. There is no doubt that some gays have ruined it for the rest, by drilling holes in toilet walls, groping men in crowds, etc. Why can't they just get on with their lives instead of shouting their sexuality from the roof tops?

 

When I hear someone talk about lifestyles being shoved in someone’s face, it always makes me think of how nice it would be to see two guys sharing a kiss at a romantic dinner for an anniversary, or watching them hold hand as they walk through the park. Once in awhile on TV, showing them disciplining their children, or sharing a tender moment. Hell even them waking up in the morning with his arm around his partner with the sheet covering the lower half of their bodies, like I have seen so many times growing up with the chick having the sheets covered to the top of her bosoms, full well knowing they were naked underneath. Instead, always being reminded of glory holes in the bathrooms of rest stops, something I didn’t see not once on our trip out East this summer, all through Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York and New Jersey. I remember them as a kid, I think, what I do remember was the writing on the walls, and it always made me wonder. As I became more aware, I understand why folks to this day would risk a quickie in secret rather than to live openly, it’s because they still feel shame and guilt that was taught to them from the time they were a knee high to a grasshopper.

 

 

I am in Bangkok at present and pretty much anything goes here. You see many sad and some horrible sights, of men who have had a sex change, or have just had breasts implanted, transvestites, or who just wear heavy make-up and long hair, etc. Very few can actually pass as a woman and some definitely not (imagine seeing an ugly muscle man, then add breasts and a heavily made up face).

 

I had the same reaction when I came out, I was afraid of drag queens, and dudes with real titties, well hell what’s up with that. I came to know this guy and he was a freaking hoot, but was in his boy wear, so I didn’t know he was a drag queen. He was a quirky guy, but fun and intelligent as anyone else. I saw him in a show, and He had wit, and a knack for making folks laugh. A true entertainer, and I really found a respect that I would never have had, had I not made an attempt to know him. I do know guys with tits, but they still have the plumbing they were born with. I can’t say that I know what it must feel like to be born to a body that don’t match who you are, but one thing I have learned is that I do understand what it’s like not to be who you are in accordance with the definitions set forth by mores. I have watched the stories on T.V. of what these folks go through, and it must be torture, so all I can say is I hope they can find some peace with themselves.