"jesus" Orders The Death Of His Enemies

[Jun]

"But bring those enemies of mine who didn't want me to reign over them here, and kill them before me." - Luke 19:27

 

So the all loving, all knowing, and all caring "Jesus" orders that his enemies be brought before him and killed. What happened to love thy enemy?

 

Ever see those Christians with the T-shirts that have all the supposed luvy-duvy passages from "Jesus" printed on them? Well I'm sure this one would raise some eyebrows!

[mwc]

Well, technically, that's part of a parable but the parable does not really make him look any better IF he's supposed to be the lord in the parable.

 

So, the question is, is jesus the lord of the parable?

 

If so, then he makes himself look like quite the taskmaster and someone to be reviled. He expects a return on his "investment." He will even take what meager "gift" he's bestowed upon someone and give it to someone else if he feels they didn't perform good enough (not to mention the whole killing of his enemies thing). His gift isn't as "free" as the epistles would lead everyone to believe.

 

If not, then who is jesus speaking of? It's important to know so we don't get caught up in a "context" argument.

 

mwc

[Jun]

I must admit that I didn't read the entire parable, I simply chose a section and read it and was struck by that. Having reread it, I am of the opinion that perhaps it is "Jesus" warning that if one doesn't allow him/God to reign over them, this is what will happen.

 

Luke 19:9 - 36

 

9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

 

10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

 

11And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

 

12He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

 

13And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

 

14But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

 

15And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

 

16Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

 

17And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

 

18And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.

 

19And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

 

20And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

 

21For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.

 

22And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

 

23Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?

 

24And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.

 

25(And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)

 

26For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

 

27But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

 

28And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.

 

29And it came to pass, when he was come nigh to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount called the mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples,

 

30Saying, Go ye into the village over against you; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither.

 

31And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him.

 

32And they that were sent went their way, and found even as he had said unto them.

 

33And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt?

 

34And they said, The Lord hath need of him.

 

35And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.

 

36And as he went, they spread their clothes in the way.

 

 

I've read it and reread it, and it appears to be a parable relating that the followers of "Jesus" should go forth and double the number of followers, spread the teachings. And those who do not follow his reign he will kill.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mwc]

I have two opinions.

 

The first is that we aren't supposed to ever know what it means. It's a secret. Shhhhh! Only those who were initiated into the mystery were ever told the real meanings of these little stories.

 

The second is since we have the text we might as well guess. This parable is another example of where works and not faith is the order of the day. Why do the xians need to multiply their ranks? Why do they need to do so quickly? Why works do works save you? Why?

 

I'm glad no one asked. I'll tell you why. This is all part of my theory I've been working on. The origin of jesus is (drum roll please) an army recruitment tactic. Yep. That's all. I haven't fleshed it all out but that's the long and short of this Messiah and if you joined their army and died, well, he'd just raise you back to life when he returned (so the time frame is raise the army in-between the time he "left" and his "return" and that's why you can't see the leader but you can see his "generals" <wink wink>). No problem. This was all to reunite Israel and fight Rome (the debate was should non-Jews be allowed in ala "Paul"). I think whoever organized this may have felt that the real Messiah would actually show up if they could do most of this initial legwork (just like people feel they can "force" the end of days by doing the things in Revelation). It just turned mythological/theological somewhere along the way (probably when money got involved and some people took the texts at face value instead of their intended "hidden" meanings...since open rebellion would be an instant death sentence).

 

I guess the above really belongs somewhere else, but with my net connection being so bad the past couple of days I'm just posting where I can (until I sure it's totally stable again).

 

mwc

[Jun]

I have two opinions.

 

The first is that we aren't supposed to ever know what it means. It's a secret. Shhhhh! Only those who were initiated into the mystery were ever told the real meanings of these little stories.

 

The second is since we have the text we might as well guess. This parable is another example of where works and not faith is the order of the day. Why do the xians need to multiply their ranks? Why do they need to do so quickly? Why works do works save you? Why?

 

I'm glad no one asked. I'll tell you why. This is all part of my theory I've been working on. The origin of jesus is (drum roll please) an army recruitment tactic. Yep. That's all. I haven't fleshed it all out but that's the long and short of this Messiah and if you joined their army and died, well, he'd just raise you back to life when he returned (so the time frame is raise the army in-between the time he "left" and his "return" and that's why you can't see the leader but you can see his "generals" <wink wink>). No problem. This was all to reunite Israel and fight Rome (the debate was should non-Jews be allowed in ala "Paul"). I think whoever organized this may have felt that the real Messiah would actually show up if they could do most of this initial legwork (just like people feel they can "force" the end of days by doing the things in Revelation). It just turned mythological/theological somewhere along the way (probably when money got involved and some people took the texts at face value instead of their intended "hidden" meanings...since open rebellion would be an instant death sentence).

 

I guess the above really belongs somewhere else, but with my net connection being so bad the past couple of days I'm just posting where I can (until I sure it's totally stable again).

 

mwc

 

You know, I have had the same feeling, that there is the undertone of a military build up.

[Guest JP]

Well there is a reason Jesus spoke in parables...so unbelievers could not understand! Remember? Geez.

[Vixentrox]

Wonder if there was a secret handshake and if a decoder ring supposed to be given out?

[Turgonian]

I believe Jesus was talking about the Jews and the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

 

If the Jews would have repented (would have recognized Jesus for who He was, believed in Him, turned from their evils), He would have become their Saviour. As they did not, the offer was extended to the Gentiles, because the Jews 'would not that He should reign over them'. I think the parable is referring to the destruction of the Temple and diaspora as God's judgement

[LostOrFound]

I believe Jesus was talking about the Jews and the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

 

If the Jews would have repented (would have recognized Jesus for who He was, believed in Him, turned from their evils), He would have become their Saviour. As they did not, the offer was extended to the Gentiles, because the Jews 'would not that He should reign over them'. I think the parable is referring to the destruction of the Temple and diaspora as God's judgement

 

On what do you base your 'belief' that he was talking about the destruction of the temple in 70AD? There is certainly nothing within the text that would indicate this. Am I missing something?

[Turgonian]

These parables spoke of the 'end of the age', which was to come 'soon'. Many Christians have interpreted that as meaning that Christians in all ages should live as though Jesus is going to come soon, but a far more plausible explanation is that it really was going to happen soon! And seeing what happened to the Jews in 70 AD, it describes the thing rather closely...

 

There is more evidence for this interpretation, called preterism.

[LostOrFound]

These parables spoke of the 'end of the age', which was to come 'soon'. Many Christians have interpreted that as meaning that Christians in all ages should live as though Jesus is going to come soon, but a far more plausible explanation is that it really was going to happen soon! And seeing what happened to the Jews in 70 AD, it describes the thing rather closely...

 

There is more evidence for this interpretation, called preterism.

 

I am well aware of the "interpretation". The question is what in the text lends any credence to the interpretation? Hell, if we can just read a text and go off willy-nilly to make it fit reality or our given set of doctrine what's the point and value?

[Turgonian]

What the text is followed by -- Luke 21...

[LostOrFound]

What the text is followed by -- Luke 21...

 

Still nothing there that supports your interpretation. Verse 27 blows away any possible connection with the destruction in 70AD.

 

But then, you knew that already, didn't you?

 

One of the biggest problems I had as a Baptist preacher was trying to "force" faulty prophecy into a continuum that worked. Sure, I followed the 'company line' but I was NEVER comfortable with it.

 

My guess is that you aren't entirely comfortable with all the "explanations" either. But you are probably not ready to admit it yet. That's okay. Many of us spent years in the ministry of apologetics before admitting what we knew all along... that the Bible is not the word of any god.

[mwc]

I believe Jesus was talking about the Jews and the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

 

If the Jews would have repented (would have recognized Jesus for who He was, believed in Him, turned from their evils), He would have become their Saviour. As they did not, the offer was extended to the Gentiles, because the Jews 'would not that He should reign over them'. I think the parable is referring to the destruction of the Temple and diaspora as God's judgement

The problem with this bit of interpretation is that it ignores the fact that the "diaspora" wasn't something that simply happened. The diaspora was self-imposed. The Jews had been leaving Judea for a long time by the time the Romans sieged it. A lot of effort is made to connect the two events but it doesn't stand up. Secondly, the better connection would be the second Jewish war when the Jews weren't allowed to practice their religion anymore and were actively barred from Jerusalem for a period. This would be a much better match for a true diaspora as per the "prophecy."

 

If jesus was talking about anything at all then he got it wrong since he said that no stones would be left standing upon another. Even we know this was a false statement since we have a number of 2nd temple stones left stacked upon another (unless, of course, he meant "Herod's Temple" and not "Second Temple" but failed to make the distinction or some other loophole).

 

However, I will give you partial credit for "if bad things happen then that's this gods judgment for not doing something he wants the way he wants when he wants it" since we know that's his style. The bible is filled with petty examples of this from cover to cover so it's not a stretch to interpret any story that way.

 

mwc

[Lycorth]

If Jebus was talking about the Temple, then he should've said so.

 

But he was clearly indicating what he wanted his cultists to do - either make all humans into Xians, or kill the ones who refuse to believe.

 

Like it or not, Jebus is a monster, condemned by his own words.

 

Good thing all evidence points to Jebus being only a figment of the imagination, eh?

[♦ ficino ♦]

If Jesus could blast a poor fig tree, that was reproductively challenged, to death overnight, why doubt that the dude would hestitate to kill humans if they crossed his desires and he had the power to pull it off?

[Lycorth]

If Jesus could blast a poor fig tree, that was reproductively challenged, to death overnight, why doubt that the dude would hestitate to kill humans if they crossed his desires and he had the power to pull it off?

 

Actually, since the fig tree in question was said to have been "out of season" and therefore unable to produce figs, it makes Jebus more of a jerk.

 

Since he created the tree, he knew what its seasons were, and yet cursed it, destroying it after the manner of a child throwing a temper tantrum.

 

What an asshole, eh?

[♦ ficino ♦]

Well, I guess you and I just don't understand the mysteries of the Heart of God about fig trees.

[EdwardAbbey]

"But bring those enemies of mine who didn't want me to reign over them here, and kill them before me." - Luke 19:27

 

So the all loving, all knowing, and all caring "Jesus" orders that his enemies be brought before him and killed. What happened to love thy enemy?

 

Ever see those Christians with the T-shirts that have all the supposed luvy-duvy passages from "Jesus" printed on them? Well I'm sure this one would raise some eyebrows!

 

With words like these, who would want to live next door to such a lunitic?

[Japedo]

I believe Jesus was talking about the Jews and the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

 

If the Jews would have repented (would have recognized Jesus for who He was, believed in Him, turned from their evils), He would have become their Saviour. As they did not, the offer was extended to the Gentiles, because the Jews 'would not that He should reign over them'. I think the parable is referring to the destruction of the Temple and diaspora as God's judgement

 

Repented from what? Nothing in Jewish prophecy said god will/would come in human form. The Messiah is not a godman according to them. Their Messiah is a savior in the sense of the word like Moses was a savoir. A great man/leader that freed/delivered the people from oppression. It's just a man.. a Normal human with no god like powers. This is just more blatant proof that Christians have Zero clue about the Original writings or how they are interpreted by Jews. The man/god stuff derives from Pagan worship that came from Greek and roman pagan beliefs, (also known as Idol worship) Pagans High-jacked the Jewish books and added their pagan stories to it nothing more. Trying to blame Jews for not repenting for an imaginary crime is tantamount to blaming the first player in the game telephone for starting off with the 'wrong' saying. It's stupid.

 

Jews are the original and only writers of the original prophecies, the Jewish prophecies aren't even close to what the Christians pretend they are.

 

What evils were the Jews doing? If they were following Torah they were bound by the laws (all 613 of them). Christ advocated abolishing the law which was against the very law they were bound to follow that the *ONE TRUE* god said was forever. Nice try but no fly.