The Qur'an

[Dave]

.....open your mind a little.

I get it now.... I don't agree with you so I must be closed minded.

[NotBlinded]

.....open your mind a little.

I get it now.... I don't agree with you so I must be closed minded.

Dang...is there an echo in here?

[currentchristian]

So, what about the origin of the words of the Qur'an?

 

Where did they come from? Muhammad's mind? A spirit? An angel? A demon? A god? A collective consciousness?

 

-CC in MA

[Dave]

So, what about the origin of the words of the Qur'an?

 

Where did they come from? Muhammad's mind? A spirit? An angel? A demon? A god? A collective consciousness?

Like everything in every religious text - it was made up by a human.

[Lycorth]

More Abrahamic garbage.

 

Ditto. Just like the Babble and the Torah, it's fit only for the fire.

 

Skeptic's Annotated Babble has a section on this absurd book.

[Lycorth]

So, what about the origin of the words of the Qur'an?

 

Either the minds of humans or the promptings of malevolent non-corporeal lifeforms (ie, evil spirits).

 

And given the overwhelming evidence for the former, I'm going with humans - seriously fucked-up humans at that.

[Warrior_of_god]

I think its a book that contradicts itself as much as the bible.

[currentchristian]

More Abrahamic garbage.

 

Ditto. Just like the Babble and the Torah, it's fit only for the fire.

 

Skeptic's Annotated Babble has a section on this absurd book.

 

Varokhar, did you have to say that again!?!?

 

-CC in MA

[Lycorth]

Varokhar, did you have to say that again!?!?

 

Yes

[currentchristian]

Varokhar, did you have to say that again!?!?

 

Yes

 

Okay.

 

-CC in MA

[Sexton Blake]

There was a recent trial (the second after the first failed) in the UK because someone had called Islam a wicked and vicious religion. It too failed. You only have to open the quran to find out why. It tells us that all non-muslims are: ugly, ignorant and perverted. That you should not talk to them, be friends with them, not marry them but fight them and make war on them as they cannot be saved. If you do not, you too will go to hell. In HUNDREDS of places, it tells us that non-muslims are going to burn in hell forever. Also that muslims should take over the country they are in, then the countries around it.

 

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

 

 

All things considered, I think we have o be thankful that most muslims have got enough intelligence to realise that some parts of the quran are obviously wrong and so should not be obeyed.

[The_Omniscient]

Dear fellows;

 

Is this thread still alive? I think that a sincere and neutral opinion from Mulsim side should also be entertained in this thread therfore; i would like to post my comments as well, if it would be allowed.

 

Regards

A well wisher

[Grandpa Harley]

I posit they'd be allowed, but I would dispute the word 'neutral'

[Jun]

Dear fellows;

 

Is this thread still alive? I think that a sincere and neutral opinion from Mulsim side should also be entertained in this thread therfore; i would like to post my comments as well, if it would be allowed.

 

Regards

A well wisher

 

Post away, I can't wait.

 

Can I help you get started?

 

The following is from here - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

 

The Qur'an ("Qor-Ann") is a Message from Allah to humanity. It was transmitted to us in a chain starting from the Almighty Himself (swt) to the angel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad (saas). This message was given to the Prophet (saas) in pieces over a period spanning approximately 23 years (610 CE to 622 CE). The Prophet (saas) was 40 years old when the Qur'an began to be revealed to him, and he was 63 when the revelation was completed.

 

So, a guy gets a bunch of messages, from an angel that is relaying stuff from Allah - is that right? It takes 23 years to get the full message from Allah and write it all down? Today we would call that insanity.

 

The Qur'an has not been expressed using any human's words. Its wording is letter for letter fixed by no one but Allah.

 

So although Allah used a go-between - the angel Gabriel - to relay his message to Muhammad, and Muhammed wrote it all down himself by his own hand; it is still the word of Allah?

 

Prophet Muhammad (saas) was the final Messenger of Allah to humanity, and therefore the Qur'an is the last Message which Allah has sent to us. Its predecessors such as the Torah, Psalms, and Gospels have all been superceded.

 

Like a final publication.

[Antlerman]

Prophet Muhammad (saas) was the final Messenger of Allah to humanity, and therefore the Qur'an is the last Message which Allah has sent to us. Its predecessors such as the Torah, Psalms, and Gospels have all been superceded.

 

Like a final publication.

An ironically convenient claim by those who want the top position in the marketplace of deities for sale. Doesn't the NT also claim to be the final revelation? Why yes it does. "If anyone add to the words of this book, let them be cursed!", says the book of Revelation. Oh well, they had to build in some mechanism to keep their customers from sampling other gods in the marketplace. I've never understood that, if something is the truth from The Ominiscient, Omnipotent, All Truth God, why does it need a sales pitch??? Shouldn't it sell itself without having to tell people it's true? We're talking GOD here, not man. To me the fact we need to be told it's true, is reason to doubt it - seriously.

[nick5]

I'm reading the quran now, and I'm using a yellow highlighter pen on every hateful, bigoted and intolerant line I can find. I've only read about 30 pages so far but I already have quite a lot of stuff... and I've heard that the "good stuff" in the quran is mostly at the beginning If that's the case I wonder what the bad stuff is gonna be like.....

[The Sage Nabooru]

I'm 2/3 of the way through.

 

Seriously, how many times does Muhammad have to say that the unbelievers will burn in hell? I am not exaggerating, when I say that 90% of this book is made up of those verses, spelled out 200 different ways. This guy's condemnation makes the Bible look like Unitarian Universalism. Woe be to anyone who chooses not to believe Muhammad, or even die for him if need be. Hell for you, hypocritical Muslims! Hell for you, deniers and unbelievers! Hell for you, who point out Muhammad's own hypocrisy in marrying more women than he himself allowed others, or going back on his treaty with the pagans! Remember, if you are truly a godly person, you will always follow the messenger and do whatever he tells you, no matter what. Hell for those who wanted to go back and guard their families during war when Muhammad wanted them on the front lines!

 

As for women, the general message seems to be: "Since women are such silly, stupid creatures, we should pity them. Try to take care of them, even when they don't know what's best for them." Women are told what they may expose and may not expose, and whom they may talk to freely and whom they may not. And don't forget, Allah will allow you to do anything you damn well please with any slave women you own. It's your right.

[Grandpa Harley]

Prophet Muhammad (saas) was the final Messenger of Allah to humanity, and therefore the Qur'an is the last Message which Allah has sent to us. Its predecessors such as the Torah, Psalms, and Gospels have all been superceded.

 

Like a final publication.

An ironically convenient claim by those who want the top position in the marketplace of deities for sale. Doesn't the NT also claim to be the final revelation? Why yes it does. "If anyone add to the words of this book, let them be cursed!", says the book of Revelation. Oh well, they had to build in some mechanism to keep their customers from sampling other gods in the marketplace. I've never understood that, if something is the truth from The Ominiscient, Omnipotent, All Truth God, why does it need a sales pitch??? Shouldn't it sell itself without having to tell people it's true? We're talking GOD here, not man. To me the fact we need to be told it's true, is reason to doubt it - seriously.

 

Unless you're Bahai... then theirs is the 'last message' from God...

[nick5]

I'm 2/3 of the way through.

 

Seriously, how many times does Muhammad have to say that the unbelievers will burn in hell? I am not exaggerating, when I say that 90% of this book is made up of those verses, spelled out 200 different ways. This guy's condemnation makes the Bible look like Unitarian Universalism. Woe be to anyone who chooses not to believe Muhammad, or even die for him if need be. Hell for you, hypocritical Muslims! Hell for you, deniers and unbelievers! Hell for you, who point out Muhammad's own hypocrisy in marrying more women than he himself allowed others, or going back on his treaty with the pagans! Remember, if you are truly a godly person, you will always follow the messenger and do whatever he tells you, no matter what. Hell for those who wanted to go back and guard their families during war when Muhammad wanted them on the front lines!

 

As for women, the general message seems to be: "Since women are such silly, stupid creatures, we should pity them. Try to take care of them, even when they don't know what's best for them." Women are told what they may expose and may not expose, and whom they may talk to freely and whom they may not. And don't forget, Allah will allow you to do anything you damn well please with any slave women you own. It's your right.

 

Lol, now I know what to expect with the rest of the book...

not that I didn't expect it already though

 

 

Prophet Muhammad (saas) was the final Messenger of Allah to humanity

It's funny how muslims claim islam respects all prophets. Calling mohamed the "last prophet" is an offense to L.Ron Hubbard and Rael.

[Grandpa Harley]

It's a better sequel to the Torah than the NT...

[The Sage Nabooru]

So God creates one religion, then allows it to go into corruption. Then He creates another, and allows it to go into corruption. Then He makes a third, and finally decides that this one is going to be permanent and final.

 

Why? Why not just start out with the perfect revelation from the beginning? And, more importantly, what exactly is in place that keeps this last revelation from slipping into corruption like the others? If you knew the real story behind the writing of the Koran, you'd know it went through the same period of different versions floating around, and a final version only being reviewed and completed years after the prophet's death, that Christianity did. And you cannot tell me that the Koran is final because it says so, or because of its "perfection" which makes it obvious. I'm a third from the end and I can tell you that it is far from perfect, both in form and content. It has the same inconsistencies and issues the Bible has.

 

Further........

 

*If God wants me to cover my head, why didn't he just make me born with a veil? Well, he did, and it's my hair. For that matter, why does God put hair on other parts of my body if he just wants me to remove it later? How can God create a body for us to live in and then blame it on us when we do so?

 

*If God is "All-Knowing, Wise", then how come he only is to be addressed in Arabic? Does he only speak one language? What makes Arabic and Arab culture so superior?

 

*Why is it my responsibility to make sure that men aren't attracted to me? A man has to be covered from waist to knees, but I can't show anything outside of a formless gown except my face and hands. Why? Isn't it their own self-control that should be important?

 

*Why did God create dogs if they're unclean?

[Antlerman]

Let's have some fun. Ever read the 2nd Century Egyptian apocryphal text of the Infancy Gospel of Thomas? It's a collection of purely fictitious fables that are about the sorts of miraculous things the Jesus character did when he was still a child. Here's an excerpt:

 

Chapter 4

 

(1) Next, he was going through the village again and a running child bumped his shoulder. Becoming bitter, Jesus said to him, "You will not complete your journey." (2) Immediately, he fell down and died.

 

(3) Then, some of the people who had seen what had happened said, "Where has this child come from so that his every word is a completed deed?"

 

(4) And going to Joseph, the parents of the one who had died found fault with him. They said, "Because you have such a child, you are not allowed to live with us in the village, or at least teach him to bless and not curse. For our children are dead!"

 

Chapter 5

 

(1) And taking his child aside, he warned him, saying, "Why are you doing these things? These people are suffering and they hate us and cause trouble for us."

 

(2) Then, Jesus said, "I know that the words I speak are not mine. Nevertheless, I will be silent for your sake, but these people will bear their punishment." And immediately his accusers became blind.

 

(3) When they saw what he had done, they were extremely afraid and did not know what to do. And they talked about him, saying, "Every word he speaks, good or evil, is an event and becomes a miracle."

 

(4) When Joseph saw that Jesus had done this, however, he was outraged and took his ear and pulled it extremely hard. (5) Then, the child became angry and said to him, "It is enough for you to seek and not find, but too much for you to act so unwisely. (6) Do you not know that I am not yours? Do not trouble me."

It's cute, but obviously made up stories. Right? Here's a really cool one elsewhere in the text:

 

Chapter 2

 

(1) When the boy Jesus was five years old, he was playing in a narrow part of a rushing stream. (2) He was gathering the flowing waters into ponds, and immediately they were made clean, and he ordered these things with a single word. (3)

And after he made clay, he molded twelve sparrows from it.

And it was the Sabbath when he did these things. But there were also many other children playing with him.

 

(4) Then, a certain Jew saw what Jesus was doing while playing on the Sabbath. Immediately, he departed and reported to Jesus' father, Joseph, "Look, your child is in the stream and he took clay and formed twelve birds and profaned the Sabbath?"

 

(5) And Joseph went to the area and when he saw him, he shouted, "Why are you doing these things that are not permitted on the Sabbath?"

 

(6)

Jesus, however, clapped his hands and shouted to the sparrows, "Depart, fly, and remember me now that you are alive." And the sparrows departed shrieking

.

 

(7) When the Jews saw this, they were amazed. After they had gone away, they described to their leaders what they had seen Jesus do.

 

It goes on and on with cute stories like this, one after another. BUT... what's the point of all of this? Let's look at what found its way into the Quaran stated as fact:

 

When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the holy Spirit, so that thou spakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how thou didst shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and didst blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and thou didst heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission; and how thou didst raise the dead by My permission; and how I restrained the Children of Israel from (harming) thee when thou camest unto them with clear proofs, and those of them who disbelieved exclaimed: This is naught else than mere magic;

 

 

Ooops!

[Jun]

Antlerman, you know what, my Assyrian Christian friends claim that passage is in their version of the bible and they believe it happened!

[Grandpa Harley]

It's an interpolation into Luke, IIRC...

[Antlerman]

Antlerman, you know what, my Assyrian Christian friends claim that passage is in their version of the bible and they believe it happened!

What about the rest of the book? Do they believe Jesus murdered that little kid because he bumped into his shoulder accidently? Also from a Christian apologists point of view, doesn't the Gospel of John say, "This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilie" when he turned the water into wine at the age of 30? (John 2:11) From a Chrisitan's perspective isn't that a contradiction?