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There Is No God...


LosingMyReligion
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I'm really glad that I no longer believe, because all of these crappy things have been happening lately...

 

1.) I became a victim of credit card fraud. My card has been turned off because some loser maxxed it out(fortunately, I don't have to pay anything). Now I have to use cash and checks until the fraud has been investigated...bleah!

 

2.) My car was leaking oil the other day(and I barely made it home)...

 

3.) I live 15 miles away from my school...and I have a final exam tommorrow...And I had to repair my car...

 

4.) All of my professors this semester sucked...

 

5.) My school is in the city, which has tons of crime...So god almost left me stranded there...

 

6.) My mom's car broke down five months ago, and I have been chauffering her everywhere since...Forget the fact that I am beyond stressed she HAS to get her hair done every Friday.

 

My mom told me that, maybe, God is trying to test my patience. I used to believe that. But when I used to go to my room and pray I had an epiphany...There is no god. If he really cared about me he would not allow my credit to be screwed up or let my car break down the day before a final exam that I have to take.

Furthermore, he would not allow people to be slaughtered in Darfur; be wiped out by tsunamis, and etc...If God were perfect and real this world would be the same. But it isn't.

 

So, even though all of that stuff happened I realize that I am strong enough to take action and get through the rough patches...Without turning to an imaginary friend. Nor do I feel I am being punished for bad things happening anymore.

 

So I really feel that I'm an athiest now. I never thought it would be possible but I am.

 

Anyway, it was a pretty crappola two weeks...

 

rant over!

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My mom told me that, maybe, God is trying to test my patience.

 

Sounds like your mother is the one who's really testing your patience :ugh:

 

Yes, where's the all-loving, all-powerful god of the Xians when sufferings of any kind rear their heads? That's right, nowhere. No god who is all-loving and all-good would permit suffering to exist, since it would either create a perfect world wherein suffering could never exist or would babysit us and take care of every problem before it could affect us.

 

The Xian god is impossible.

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The Xian god is impossible.

 

Exactly.

But does that make a God of any sort impossible?

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But does that make a God of any sort impossible?

Really the only God that is possible is the uncaring, non-interactive, or just plain not there type. The type that has no purpose, can't be proven or disproven and should be irrelevant to life on earth.

As soon as humans start making claims for God, those claims can be tested and shown to be incorrect.

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Really the only God that is possible is the uncaring, non-interactive, or just plain not there type.

Why do you think that's the case? Are you sure you're not just thinking in terms of the Christian God?

 

I've heard this argument before, and usually it has something to do with the amount of suffering in the world and why God doesn't stop it. In my opinion, atheists can do much better than an argument like that. I mean, my parents exist and they don't shelter me from every bad thing, even if it's in their power to do so. And if they tried, I wouldn't want them to. It's what helps me grow as a person. That doesn't mean that they don't care about me or don't help me out if I ask them to.

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So I really feel that I'm an athiest now. I never thought it would be possible but I am.

Anyway, it was a pretty crappola two weeks...

 

It could be worse.. You could have come to the conclusion that all of this was happening because Yahweh was trying to turn you around. And then turned around. Now, that would suck.

 

Looks like you need to change your username to lostmyreligion.

 

That is messed up, though, when one thing after another turns shitty.

 

Perhaps we could get Pug to sacrifice a goat on your behalf. (just in case)

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But does that make a God of any sort impossible?

Really the only God that is possible is the uncaring, non-interactive, or just plain not there type. The type that has no purpose, can't be proven or disproven and should be irrelevant to life on earth.

As soon as humans start making claims for God, those claims can be tested and shown to be incorrect.

 

If the world had of been so-called perfect and long ago there was nothing to scare humans, then man would never have created gods, etc...

 

Good rant. Thanks. Makes me have better memories of my past when I always thought it was smething I did or my fault that made the god give me hardships. What a shit load of guilt we carried as former christians!

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Mythra I sit and laugh at your avatar everytime I see it.

 

LosingMyReligion, sounds like a day I had last summer. I was a pizza delivery driver in Texas. It was 105 degrees outside. I was going to deliver a pizza and my car got a flat. I was out in the sun for 30 minutes trying to get the spare on. I took it to Sam's where I had to sit for two hours. I came back to the pizza place. Went in to get a pizza to deliver and came out and the same tire was flat. I then borrowed the managers car to deliver the pizza and got a parking ticket. Haha, shit happens.

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The Xian god is impossible.

 

Exactly.

But does that make a God of any sort impossible?

 

Strictly speaking, no. A noninterventionist deity (or deities) remains perfectly possible. Whether one should then assume its existence without valid evidence is, of course, everyone's personal decision. ;)

 

The triple-omni monster deity of judeoislamichristian cults, however... :fdevil:

 

I mean, my parents exist and they don't shelter me from every bad thing, even if it's in their power to do so. And if they tried, I wouldn't want them to. It's what helps me grow as a person. That doesn't mean that they don't care about me or don't help me out if I ask them to.

 

True, but then your parent's aren't supposed to be omnibenevolent, i. e. more loving than any human being could ever be (though I trust they do love you very much :) ). A being that's supposedly omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent simply wouldn't permit any suffering to the "object" of its love.

It's not the "problem of evil" per se, but the combination of "existence of evil" and "triple-omni deity" ;)

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Strictly speaking, no. A noninterventionist deity (or deities) remains perfectly possible. Whether one should then assume its existence without valid evidence is, of course, everyone's personal decision.

 

The triple-omni monster deity of judeoislamichristian cults, however...

 

Yes, and in my case, it's a decision based on reason as much as any soft atheist's, maybe even a smidgen more so.

 

A being that's supposedly omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent simply wouldn't permit any suffering to the "object" of its love.

 

This is still looking at God through a Christians eyes. God, if He exists and is all those omni's, cannot interfere without undermining our free will. It's God's own Prime Directive. No angels, no ghosts, no demons (if any of these actually existed), not even He himself can interfere. We're on our own to make up whatever beliefs we can get away with demagoguing, from human sacrificing paganism to atheism. We're free from the supernatural, just not from ourselves.

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This is still looking at God through a Christians eyes. God, if He exists and is all those omni's, cannot interfere without undermining our free will. It's God's own Prime Directive. No angels, no ghosts, no demons (if any of these actually existed), not even He himself can interfere. We're on our own to make up whatever beliefs we can get away with demagoguing, from human sacrificing paganism to atheism. We're free from the supernatural, just not from ourselves.

 

 

So you think there's a god who will never do anything or make himself known. And why do you think this?

 

And yes he could interfere without destroying free will. Someone falls fine, but omni-man could not let it hurt. Unless someone is specifically trying to hurt or damage themselves then stopping their pain and suffering is in no way interfereing with their free will. People seem to say "omnipotent" and then limit it to human abilities. All powerful god could let us do what we want and just stop any negative consequence. He doesn't. Therefore he either, wants us to hurt, can't stop it, or ISN'T THERE. Its as simple as that.

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Really the only God that is possible is the uncaring, non-interactive, or just plain not there type.

Why do you think that's the case? Are you sure you're not just thinking in terms of the Christian God?

 

I've heard this argument before, and usually it has something to do with the amount of suffering in the world and why God doesn't stop it. In my opinion, atheists can do much better than an argument like that. I mean, my parents exist and they don't shelter me from every bad thing, even if it's in their power to do so. And if they tried, I wouldn't want them to. It's what helps me grow as a person. That doesn't mean that they don't care about me or don't help me out if I ask them to.

 

That's my thinking as well. Only through intense crushing pressure can a lump of coal become a diamond, same goes for your spiritual growth.

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Guest ConservativePessimist

"bad things happen to me therefore god doesn't exist."

 

Really though, I agree. If God would allow you to lose something so important as money, really, there must be no God.

 

Of course, you could always try counting your blessings... like that you go to college and that you have a car, but nevermind those, poor poor you!

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Why do you think that's the case? Are you sure you're not just thinking in terms of the Christian God?

 

I've heard this argument before, and usually it has something to do with the amount of suffering in the world and why God doesn't stop it. In my opinion, atheists can do much better than an argument like that. I mean, my parents exist and they don't shelter me from every bad thing, even if it's in their power to do so. And if they tried, I wouldn't want them to. It's what helps me grow as a person. That doesn't mean that they don't care about me or don't help me out if I ask them to.

 

That's what I think.

 

A world without struggle would be pointless. People tend to imagine perfection as being entirely external, as in, if God existed, the world would be made perfect for me.

 

If everything were perfect, if everything were provided the moment it entered our minds, then there would be no point in moving, thinking, changing, or developing. Eventually we would turn into little more than bored, coddled, more-than-a-little-unfeeling clods.

 

"Benevolence" lies not in creating a world where existence would be so needless as to be pointless, but rather in allowing the full range of human emotion and expression, culminating in Wisdom and Experience.

 

This does not mean that God is unreachable, uncaring, Judeo-Christian-style, or purposeless. Rather, for me it means that God, which is within each of us, is also experiencing with us. Perfection is internal, not external. Therefore, instead of insisting on a world made perfect for us, we should focus on a world made perfect by us.

 

And for the record, I always thought the argument "my life is sooooo hard so there can't be a God" was really rather whiny and childish.

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neverclear5 wrote:

 

And yes he could interfere without destroying free will. Someone falls fine, but omni-man could not let it hurt.

 

The nature of free will requires that there be no supernatural interference with natural law. To do so would undermine our rational basis for making consistently rational decisions, including moral choices--as much as some struggle against this circumstance.

 

Even the senseless, needless death of an innocent child is at the very least a monument to God's (if He exists) commitment to our free will. We are, after all, a mere blink against the backdrop of eternity. In any case, why is it more comforting or logical to believe that we all suffer and die, end of story.

 

I think the majority of the "God wouldn't let this suffering happen" comes as a reaction to the false indoctrination by Christians and other revealed religions who teach that God does intervene, if your faith is strong enough. BS. Reason is all but incontrovertible that there has been no divine intervention since the beginning of time.

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[Even the senseless, needless death of an innocent child is at the very least a monument to God's (if He exists) commitment to our free will.

 

well he can shove is monument up his monumental arse!! A childs life is worth more than someones "free will". Thats why we lock up murderers numbnuts! And when did natural fucking law come into it! What the hell is natural law anyway?

 

In any case, why is it more comforting or logical to believe that we all suffer and die, end of story.

 

1st, what does comfort have to do with what actually happens? Debating whether there is a god has nothing to do with what is comforting!

2nd, I have seen suffering. I have seen dieing. I have not seen living forever in the clouds.

 

Reason is all but incontrovertible that there has been no divine intervention since the beginning of time.

 

So, god has done nothing since the dawn of time........ so what makes you think there is one!?!?!?!?

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What the hell is natural law anyway?

I thought this was an interesting question.

 

One of the definitions that I have heard proposed which strikes me as interesting is this...

 

Natural law is the assertion or belief that there is entailment between phenomenon in the ambience.

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"bad things happen to me therefore god doesn't exist."

 

Really though, I agree. If God would allow you to lose something so important as money, really, there must be no God.

 

Of course, you could always try counting your blessings... like that you go to college and that you have a car, but nevermind those, poor poor you!

 

 

1.) I worked for two years to buy my car, and I still have another three months before I pay it off. God didn't buy my car...I did.

 

2.) I'm in college because I worked hard making straight A's for 12 years prior to that...I don't get where God comes into the equation...

 

Furthermore, I don't believe in God for the simple fact that the world is an unfair place. If someone up there created us all and "Loved" us more than anything then I would think that someone would make it as less difficult for us as possible...

Furthermore, I am fortunate...not blessed. Big difference. "blessed" is the idea that we all have somekind of divine inheritance...I feel fortunate that, unlike many people in 3rd world nations, that I can have a car and an education. That I feel fortunate for...

 

However, why would a Just and loving being, that created everything, give me these "blessings," but leave others destitute?

 

I know the christian answer would be, "You are blessed to bless others." However, I find that highly unlikely...When I am able to contribute to others I will do so because I chose to and not because God says...

 

Sorry, but God hasn't done a goddamn(pun totally intended)for me lately.

 

As it is I am having a better day today... :woohoo:

 

I've heard this argument before, and usually it has something to do with the amount of suffering in the world and why God doesn't stop it. In my opinion, atheists can do much better than an argument like that. I mean, my parents exist and they don't shelter me from every bad thing, even if it's in their power to do so. And if they tried, I wouldn't want them to. It's what helps me grow as a person. That doesn't mean that they don't care about me or don't help me out if I ask them to.

 

There is a big difference though...

 

Your parents are not supreme dieties who have power over all creation.

 

If I had all of that power I would be certain that pain and suffering never come into existence.

 

Well, I don't knock anyone for believing in God. If you choose to then more power to you. However, my bad day aside, I've found more evidence against the existence of a "benevolent" diety who is the supposed master of all that is, than for him or her...

 

Yes, the hard times do help you grow. I agree 1 Zilllion percent...But why does god need to be credited with that? I believe in the human spirit being able to thrive in an imperfect environment.

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Furthermore, I am fortunate...not blessed. Big difference. "blessed" is the idea that we all have somekind of divine inheritance...I feel fortunate that, unlike many people in 3rd world nations, that I can have a car and an education. That I feel fortunate for...

 

However, why would a Just and loving being, that created everything, give me these "blessings," but leave others destitute?

 

I know the christian answer would be, "You are blessed to bless others." However, I find that highly unlikely...When I am able to contribute to others I will do so because I chose to and not because God says...

 

Sorry, but God hasn't done a goddamn(pun totally intended)for me lately.

 

As it is I am having a better day today... :woohoo:

I loved your whole post but this part here is everything I have been trying to say myself. Around the holidays especially when people are giving thanks to God for what they have, it really, really angers me.

 

Thank you for that post.

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I've heard this argument before, and usually it has something to do with the amount of suffering in the world and why God doesn't stop it. In my opinion, atheists can do much better than an argument like that. I mean, my parents exist and they don't shelter me from every bad thing, even if it's in their power to do so. And if they tried, I wouldn't want them to. It's what helps me grow as a person. That doesn't mean that they don't care about me or don't help me out if I ask them to.

 

There is a big difference though...

 

Your parents are not supreme dieties who have power over all creation.

No, but they do have the power to shelter me from some bad things.

If I had all of that power I would be certain that pain and suffering never come into existence.

Why? What would people learn by letting a god solve all of their problems for them? Adults would be nothing more than overgrown children. You've seen how some spoiled rich children are. Now multiply that by a billion and imagine everyone in the world is like that. Not a pretty picture, is it? :)

Well, I don't knock anyone for believing in God. If you choose to then more power to you. However, my bad day aside, I've found more evidence against the existence of a "benevolent" diety who is the supposed master of all that is, than for him or her...

 

Yes, the hard times do help you grow. I agree 1 Zilllion percent...But why does god need to be credited with that? I believe in the human spirit being able to thrive in an imperfect environment.

I agree that humans can and should take credit for their own growth, but that doesn't necessarily rule out an interactive, caring god.

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Why? What would people learn by letting a god solve all of their problems for them? Adults would be nothing more than overgrown children. You've seen how some spoiled rich children are. Now multiply that by a billion and imagine everyone in the world is like that. Not a pretty picture, is it?
It's funny. I have heard rappers talking about their lives in the streets, hustling, runnin' from Jake, dealing drugs, dealing with gangs etc.

 

"My experiences in the 'hood, all the suffering I endured, all the foodless nights, all the cold houses, with all the kids sleeping in one bed, all that made me what I am; I wouldn't trade it for anything... But I don't want my kids to go through it." Sooo...what? Suffering is enriching, but we should do everything to keep our kids from going through it? It's ultimately a good thing, if you survive it, but it's also ultimately a bad thing, to be avoided whether you could survive it or not?

 

If the ultimate human goal is to eliminate human suffering, and it is, how then does that coincide with a compassionate god who is capable of doing so, but doesn't?

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I agree that humans can and should take credit for their own growth, but that doesn't necessarily rule out an interactive, caring god.

 

I guess it's ok for some to have worked hard to solve their own dilemas in life, to have reduced their own suffering by their own hard work - and then to claim that it was all put on them by an imaginary sky-god-daddy-thingy as a trial and that he/it/she actually helped out in some unknown and magical way!!!??? :huh::crazy:

 

If the ultimate human goal is to eliminate human suffering, and it is, how then does that coincide with a compassionate god who is capable of doing so, but doesn't?

 

Ditto.

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The Xian god is impossible.

 

Exactly.

But does that make a God of any sort impossible?

 

No - but personally, I'll believe one exists when one is shown to me.

 

Otherwise, I'm enough god for myself.

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Really the only God that is possible is the uncaring, non-interactive, or just plain not there type.

Why do you think that's the case? Are you sure you're not just thinking in terms of the Christian God?

 

I've heard this argument before, and usually it has something to do with the amount of suffering in the world and why God doesn't stop it. In my opinion, atheists can do much better than an argument like that. I mean, my parents exist and they don't shelter me from every bad thing, even if it's in their power to do so. And if they tried, I wouldn't want them to. It's what helps me grow as a person. That doesn't mean that they don't care about me or don't help me out if I ask them to.

For me it is a powerful argument against a loving God but not a God in general. I think that because not all humans go through the same experiences, one's definition of "suffering" differs from person to person. I remember talking to one Christian he claimed that studying for a school test was "suffering". I think your definition is similar. I wouldn't call pain that "helps you grow" to be suffering. For me suffering would be pain that has no benefit to you. It would be a complete hatred of life, so much so that you would rather have not been born. The reason that most people don't use this definition of suffering is because most never experience that intensity for a permanent period. If I was God, I would make everyone who believed that God was loving to experience absolutely pointless suffering until they wouldn't be able to handle it, and then see if they would still called me loving.

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Really the only God that is possible is the uncaring, non-interactive, or just plain not there type.

Why do you think that's the case? Are you sure you're not just thinking in terms of the Christian God?

 

I've heard this argument before, and usually it has something to do with the amount of suffering in the world and why God doesn't stop it. In my opinion, atheists can do much better than an argument like that. I mean, my parents exist and they don't shelter me from every bad thing, even if it's in their power to do so. And if they tried, I wouldn't want them to. It's what helps me grow as a person. That doesn't mean that they don't care about me or don't help me out if I ask them to.

For me it is a powerful argument against a loving God but not a God in general. I think that because not all humans go through the same experiences, one's definition of "suffering" differs from person to person. I remember talking to one Christian he claimed that studying for a school test was "suffering". I think your definition is similar. I wouldn't call pain that "helps you grow" to be suffering. For me suffering would be pain that has no benefit to you. It would be a complete hatred of life, so much so that you would rather have not been born. The reason that most people don't use this definition of suffering is because most never experience that intensity for a permanent period. If I was God, I would make everyone who believed that God was loving to experience absolutely pointless suffering until they wouldn't be able to handle it, and then see if they would still called me loving.

 

Personally, I do believe in a loving god.. I don't however believe in pointless suffering.

 

If the point is to experience for god, then even experiencing what you perceive to be pointless suffering would actually be the point.

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