AKR Posted December 6, 2006 Share Posted December 6, 2006 mathew 10:34 34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. 35 For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and one's enemies will be those of his household.' oh, and here's another verse: luke 14:26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. that doesn't seem very nice, jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted December 6, 2006 Share Posted December 6, 2006 I think Jesus was predicting what the disciples would be encountering when they went to spread his teachings. They were preaching something that was totally against the belief of the people at that time afterall. Wiki has some pretty good information on it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_10:34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted December 6, 2006 Share Posted December 6, 2006 Y'know, funny you should mention those verses... I recently got into a discussion with my fundy mother about those exact same verses. We were on some phone call a couple of months ago and she made some comment about how peaceful Jesus was. I remembered those verses and called her on it. She was initially surprised, but then did some "research" and got back to me with another spin on them. She brought back some other interpretation of said verses from one of the Bible study classes she'd attended. The interpretation wasn't that Jesus was actually advocating division of families, but was warning people that if they followed him their unrighteous, sinful families would reject them because they couldn't stand the newfound moral purity and righteousness of a Jesus follower (similar to some of the interpretations Notblinded posted in the Wikipedia link). Yeah, right. Self-righteousness, more likely. I called her on that, too. Pointed out that it was self-righteous to think so, and that maybe, if a Xian's family did kick them out or whatever, it was because said Xian wasn't really sin-free and morally upright, but was rather an arrogant, unbearable prat. Regardless of what interpretation is strictly correct, it sure seems to me that Jesus was around to stir shit up; and Xians thinking he was this mellow hippy "love everybody" dude are smoking crack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKR Posted December 7, 2006 Author Share Posted December 7, 2006 I think Jesus was predicting what the disciples would be encountering when they went to spread his teachings. They were preaching something that was totally against the belief of the people at that time afterall. Wiki has some pretty good information on it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_10:34 if that's what he was saying, then why didn't he just say that? why make it sound like he's bringing violence instead of peace? and how does a verse encouraging people to hate their family fit into that? i'm not going to bother with that link. i don't see the point in reading "interpretations" that are merely a strong twist of words to get them to say something other than what they are really saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 I think Jesus was predicting what the disciples would be encountering when they went to spread his teachings. They were preaching something that was totally against the belief of the people at that time afterall. Wiki has some pretty good information on it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_10:34 if that's what he was saying, then why didn't he just say that? why make it sound like he's bringing violence instead of peace? and how does a verse encouraging people to hate their family fit into that? i'm not going to bother with that link. i don't see the point in reading "interpretations" that are merely a strong twist of words to get them to say something other than what they are really saying. Absolutely ANYBODY can edit and post in Wikipedia. It seemed as if that article had been written from a Christian point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 I think Jesus was predicting what the disciples would be encountering when they went to spread his teachings. They were preaching something that was totally against the belief of the people at that time afterall. Wiki has some pretty good information on it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_10:34 if that's what he was saying, then why didn't he just say that? why make it sound like he's bringing violence instead of peace? and how does a verse encouraging people to hate their family fit into that? i'm not going to bother with that link. i don't see the point in reading "interpretations" that are merely a strong twist of words to get them to say something other than what they are really saying. Sorry...that was just my opinion in that post. All I am saying is that to try to understand what is being said, one has to try to understand the times such things are being said in. I can't adamantly defend it or go along with it when I didn't live the life and times of the people some 1970+ years ago. That link explores both interpertations of those verses. I wasn't just going to point you to the one I thought made the most sense (sorry...my error again. You couldn't have known that). Read them for yourself and make your own decision. If Wiki isn't to your liking, then read up on the culture and beliefs of the people from the time that Jesus would have been making those statements and then decide. See how people would have reacted when some people came around telling them what they believed was incorrect. Even today, I wouldn't like it and our society doesn't stone you for blaspheming its god. But, I know that as soon as I left the "faith" that I was born and raised in, I was treated differently. People's beliefs can be so stong that when a family member leaves it to follow something else, oft times they are rejected and shuned and yes, even hated. I wasn't, but I'm sure there are those that still are. And that is in today's "liberal" society. Understanding something from a different perspective isn't twisting it when one really has no idea what they were really saying to begin with. It's just trying to narrow down the possiblities. I can't take something that was said a couple of thousand years ago and understand it with my cultural mindset of today and claim 100% that is what it means. It's just not possible. I have my beliefs and what I "feel" may have been meant, but when I claim I know 100% what it meant, then I have lost my objectivity. That is something I never want to loose again. Anyway, I was just trying to add some understanding. About the hating your family verse...I have to study that one some more before I can say anything other than I don't like it myself. I think Jesus was predicting what the disciples would be encountering when they went to spread his teachings. They were preaching something that was totally against the belief of the people at that time afterall. Wiki has some pretty good information on it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_10:34 if that's what he was saying, then why didn't he just say that? why make it sound like he's bringing violence instead of peace? and how does a verse encouraging people to hate their family fit into that? i'm not going to bother with that link. i don't see the point in reading "interpretations" that are merely a strong twist of words to get them to say something other than what they are really saying. Absolutely ANYBODY can edit and post in Wikipedia. It seemed as if that article had been written from a Christian point of view. Yes...but there are external links at the bottom that will take you to different sites exploring both understandings. Hell, it may even mean something totally different upon the discovery of new information. Everyone has the right, and the responsibility, to make educated decisions for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKR Posted December 8, 2006 Author Share Posted December 8, 2006 I think Jesus was predicting what the disciples would be encountering when they went to spread his teachings. They were preaching something that was totally against the belief of the people at that time afterall. Wiki has some pretty good information on it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_10:34 if that's what he was saying, then why didn't he just say that? why make it sound like he's bringing violence instead of peace? and how does a verse encouraging people to hate their family fit into that? i'm not going to bother with that link. i don't see the point in reading "interpretations" that are merely a strong twist of words to get them to say something other than what they are really saying. Sorry...that was just my opinion in that post. All I am saying is that to try to understand what is being said, one has to try to understand the times such things are being said in. I can't adamantly defend it or go along with it when I didn't live the life and times of the people some 1970+ years ago. That link explores both interpertations of those verses. I wasn't just going to point you to the one I thought made the most sense (sorry...my error again. You couldn't have known that). Read them for yourself and make your own decision. If Wiki isn't to your liking, then read up on the culture and beliefs of the people from the time that Jesus would have been making those statements and then decide. See how people would have reacted when some people came around telling them what they believed was incorrect. Even today, I wouldn't like it and our society doesn't stone you for blaspheming its god. But, I know that as soon as I left the "faith" that I was born and raised in, I was treated differently. People's beliefs can be so stong that when a family member leaves it to follow something else, oft times they are rejected and shuned and yes, even hated. I wasn't, but I'm sure there are those that still are. And that is in today's "liberal" society. Understanding something from a different perspective isn't twisting it when one really has no idea what they were really saying to begin with. It's just trying to narrow down the possiblities. I can't take something that was said a couple of thousand years ago and understand it with my cultural mindset of today and claim 100% that is what it means. It's just not possible. I have my beliefs and what I "feel" may have been meant, but when I claim I know 100% what it meant, then I have lost my objectivity. That is something I never want to loose again. Anyway, I was just trying to add some understanding. About the hating your family verse...I have to study that one some more before I can say anything other than I don't like it myself. I think Jesus was predicting what the disciples would be encountering when they went to spread his teachings. They were preaching something that was totally against the belief of the people at that time afterall. Wiki has some pretty good information on it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_10:34 if that's what he was saying, then why didn't he just say that? why make it sound like he's bringing violence instead of peace? and how does a verse encouraging people to hate their family fit into that? i'm not going to bother with that link. i don't see the point in reading "interpretations" that are merely a strong twist of words to get them to say something other than what they are really saying. Absolutely ANYBODY can edit and post in Wikipedia. It seemed as if that article had been written from a Christian point of view. Yes...but there are external links at the bottom that will take you to different sites exploring both understandings. Hell, it may even mean something totally different upon the discovery of new information. Everyone has the right, and the responsibility, to make educated decisions for themselves. thank you for your reply. i didn't mean to sound harsh towards you, in case you thought i did. maybe i'll take a better look at it, but i don't see how it could be seen another way. and the very fact that i have to go to a source OUTSIDE of the bible, and have to deal with weighing each interpretation shows a lack of fore thought on the holy spirit's part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 thank you for your reply. i didn't mean to sound harsh towards you, in case you thought i did. maybe i'll take a better look at it, but i don't see how it could be seen another way. and the very fact that i have to go to a source OUTSIDE of the bible, and have to deal with weighing each interpretation shows a lack of fore thought on the holy spirit's part. That's okay. I agree with you 100% about it showing a lack of fore thought if it was written by God. I believe it was written by men to tell what they thought about God and about a person that was proclaiming to have wisdom about God (Jesus). I sometimes forget that when we argue against it being the word of God, we often take on the assumption that it was God-written in order to debunk it. But, I have found that once I dismissed it being written by God, it became more valuable on a spiritual level than it ever did before. I don't have to believe it all or suffer the consequences, because I don't believe what most fundamental Christians today do about that kind of nonsense. It's just a book to me that does contain some ancient people's thoughts on God and their culture and some timeless philosophical notions. Sorry for the confusion and by the way...welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Jebus the meek and mild, my hairy white Polish ass. He was more like a demented cult leader to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Jebus the meek and mild, my hairy white Polish ass. He was more like a demented cult leader to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Jebus the meek and mild, my hairy white Polish ass. He was more like a demented cult leader to me. If Jesus was not an ambassador from another realm, then he definitely was a demented cult leader. If he was an ambassador from another realm, he was making full use of his prerogatives. -CC in MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 If Jesus was not an ambassador from another realm, then he definitely was a demented cult leader. If he was an ambassador from another realm, he was making full use of his prerogatives. Diplomatic immunity? So, Jebus had the right to act like a jerk just because (you posit) he was from another realm? Yup, Xianity - the religion of legalism PS, I dislike the concept of diplomatic immunity in real life, and I sure as hell don't ascribe to it in terms of gods. If they can't act like decent folks, then fuck 'em. That goes for Jebus, too. Good thing there is no Jebus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 If Jesus was not an ambassador from another realm, then he definitely was a demented cult leader. If he was an ambassador from another realm, he was making full use of his prerogatives. Diplomatic immunity? So, Jebus had the right to act like a jerk just because (you posit) he was from another realm? Yup, Xianity - the religion of legalism PS, I dislike the concept of diplomatic immunity in real life, and I sure as hell don't ascribe to it in terms of gods. If they can't act like decent folks, then fuck 'em. That goes for Jebus, too. Good thing there is no Jebus I'm not talking about immunity for wrongdoing. If he was from another realm, then he sees things as they are, not as we do; and he knows things as they are, not as we perceive them to be. Therefore, what appears to our finite minds as rude or harsh may in fact not be rude or harsh at all. Kindda like when I take my dear kitty whom I love so much and have to put eye drops in her eyes due to get rid of her "pink eye." It kills me to have to do it and I think she thinks I'm being mean to her, but her thoughts are not my thoughts and her ways are not my ways and, plain and simple, I know better than a 7-month-old cat what is what and what she needs! Likewise, I perceive that Jesus knows better than I do what is what and what needs to be done. -CC in MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 I'm not talking about immunity for wrongdoing. If he was from another realm, then he sees things as they are, not as we do; and he knows things as they are, not as we perceive them to be. Then, if he knows better than us, he should've done a better job with creation, or at least with salvation, instead of trusting it to human language and to human beings to convince others about it. Doesn't seem too efficient to me. Therefore, what appears to our finite minds as rude or harsh may in fact not be rude or harsh at all. Kindda like when I take my dear kitty whom I love so much and have to put eye drops in her eyes due to get rid of her "pink eye." It kills me to have to do it and I think she thinks I'm being mean to her, but her thoughts are not my thoughts and her ways are not my ways and, plain and simple, I know better than a 7-month-old cat what is what and what she needs! Likewise, I perceive that Jesus knows better than I do what is what and what needs to be done. However, if you had the power, you'd just do away with your cat's pink eye with a thought, rather than do it the hard way with drops, no? The Xian god has the power to do away with all our sufferings with just a thought, even to save us all from Hell, yet he does not, and chooses to do things the hard way. No matter what, it always comes back to that - why couldn't "almighty" Gawd do better, if he had the power to in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 I'm not talking about immunity for wrongdoing. If he was from another realm, then he sees things as they are, not as we do; and he knows things as they are, not as we perceive them to be. Then, if he knows better than us, he should've done a better job with creation, or at least with salvation, instead of trusting it to human language and to human beings to convince others about it. Doesn't seem too efficient to me. Therefore, what appears to our finite minds as rude or harsh may in fact not be rude or harsh at all. Kindda like when I take my dear kitty whom I love so much and have to put eye drops in her eyes due to get rid of her "pink eye." It kills me to have to do it and I think she thinks I'm being mean to her, but her thoughts are not my thoughts and her ways are not my ways and, plain and simple, I know better than a 7-month-old cat what is what and what she needs! Likewise, I perceive that Jesus knows better than I do what is what and what needs to be done. However, if you had the power, you'd just do away with your cat's pink eye with a thought, rather than do it the hard way with drops, no? The Xian god has the power to do away with all our sufferings with just a thought, even to save us all from Hell, yet he does not, and chooses to do things the hard way. No matter what, it always comes back to that - why couldn't "almighty" Gawd do better, if he had the power to in the first place? I don't know that the Source/Creator has the power to do away with all our suffering ... just yet. The cosmic experiment must be allowed to run its course. There is no hell, in my view, to be saved from, but the foundation of Christianity is that God has done everything to provide for complete restoration (redemption is the more "religious" word) of the human person, of human civilization and of the cosmos. I sure hope so. -CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 I don't know that the Source/Creator has the power to do away with all our suffering ... just yet. The cosmic experiment must be allowed to run its course. There is no hell, in my view, to be saved from, but the foundation of Christianity is that God has done everything to provide for complete restoration (redemption is the more "religious" word) of the human person, of human civilization and of the cosmos. I sure hope so. With the exception of your views on Xianity, I'd say you're on the right track overall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 I don't know that the Source/Creator has the power to do away with all our suffering ... just yet. The cosmic experiment must be allowed to run its course. There is no hell, in my view, to be saved from, but the foundation of Christianity is that God has done everything to provide for complete restoration (redemption is the more "religious" word) of the human person, of human civilization and of the cosmos. I sure hope so. With the exception of your views on Xianity, I'd say you're on the right track overall That, Varokhar, is the sweetest thing you've ever said to me. right back at you! -CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 That, Varokhar, is the sweetest thing you've ever said to me. right back at you! So I don't need all that sugar in my coffee, then? Nah... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 That, Varokhar, is the sweetest thing you've ever said to me. right back at you! So I don't need all that sugar in my coffee, then? Nah... Not tonight, at least! Who knows what you'll post tomorrow.... -CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKR Posted December 11, 2006 Author Share Posted December 11, 2006 I'm not talking about immunity for wrongdoing. If he was from another realm, then he sees things as they are, not as we do; and he knows things as they are, not as we perceive them to be. Then, if he knows better than us, he should've done a better job with creation, or at least with salvation, instead of trusting it to human language and to human beings to convince others about it. Doesn't seem too efficient to me. Therefore, what appears to our finite minds as rude or harsh may in fact not be rude or harsh at all. Kindda like when I take my dear kitty whom I love so much and have to put eye drops in her eyes due to get rid of her "pink eye." It kills me to have to do it and I think she thinks I'm being mean to her, but her thoughts are not my thoughts and her ways are not my ways and, plain and simple, I know better than a 7-month-old cat what is what and what she needs! Likewise, I perceive that Jesus knows better than I do what is what and what needs to be done. However, if you had the power, you'd just do away with your cat's pink eye with a thought, rather than do it the hard way with drops, no? The Xian god has the power to do away with all our sufferings with just a thought, even to save us all from Hell, yet he does not, and chooses to do things the hard way. No matter what, it always comes back to that - why couldn't "almighty" Gawd do better, if he had the power to in the first place? I don't know that the Source/Creator has the power to do away with all our suffering ... just yet. The cosmic experiment must be allowed to run its course. There is no hell, in my view, to be saved from, but the foundation of Christianity is that God has done everything to provide for complete restoration (redemption is the more "religious" word) of the human person, of human civilization and of the cosmos. I sure hope so. -CC so...you don't believe in hell? what's up with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 I'm not talking about immunity for wrongdoing. If he was from another realm, then he sees things as they are, not as we do; and he knows things as they are, not as we perceive them to be. Then, if he knows better than us, he should've done a better job with creation, or at least with salvation, instead of trusting it to human language and to human beings to convince others about it. Doesn't seem too efficient to me. Therefore, what appears to our finite minds as rude or harsh may in fact not be rude or harsh at all. Kindda like when I take my dear kitty whom I love so much and have to put eye drops in her eyes due to get rid of her "pink eye." It kills me to have to do it and I think she thinks I'm being mean to her, but her thoughts are not my thoughts and her ways are not my ways and, plain and simple, I know better than a 7-month-old cat what is what and what she needs! Likewise, I perceive that Jesus knows better than I do what is what and what needs to be done. However, if you had the power, you'd just do away with your cat's pink eye with a thought, rather than do it the hard way with drops, no? The Xian god has the power to do away with all our sufferings with just a thought, even to save us all from Hell, yet he does not, and chooses to do things the hard way. No matter what, it always comes back to that - why couldn't "almighty" Gawd do better, if he had the power to in the first place? I don't know that the Source/Creator has the power to do away with all our suffering ... just yet. The cosmic experiment must be allowed to run its course. There is no hell, in my view, to be saved from, but the foundation of Christianity is that God has done everything to provide for complete restoration (redemption is the more "religious" word) of the human person, of human civilization and of the cosmos. I sure hope so. -CC so...you don't believe in hell? what's up with that? Few, like the Fred Phelps family, really, really believe in hell. And those who think they do, don't believe any of their loved ones are there. Hellfire, eternal torment -- none of these is reasonable or sensible or compassionate, or, in my view, scriptural. Most Christians today reject hellfire (a la Dante). -CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKR Posted December 11, 2006 Author Share Posted December 11, 2006 Few, like the Fred Phelps family, really, really believe in hell. And those who think they do, don't believe any of their loved ones are there. Hellfire, eternal torment -- none of these is reasonable or sensible or compassionate, or, in my view, scriptural. Most Christians today reject hellfire (a la Dante). -CC really? most of the people i encounter believe in hell. there are a lot of things in the bible that are not "reasonable, sensible, or compassionate," so do you just toss out those parts as well? so, where the dilly do us atheists go? (that's right, i'm hijacking my own thread!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexton Blake Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 For contradictions and other goodies in the bible (and quran), try: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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