Pleasure

[currentchristian]

Oscar Wilde had something to say about everything. Here are some remarks on the subject under consideration -- pleasure.

 

A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. What more can one want?

 

No civilised man ever regrets a pleasure, just as no uncivilised man ever knows what a pleasure is.

 

Anything becomes a pleasure if one does it too often.

 

Pleasure is the only thing one should live for. Nothing ages like happiness.

 

I adore simple pleasures. They are the last refuge of the complex.

 

Pleasure is the only thing worth having a theory about.

 

-CC

[Lycorth]

Remember that the religious leaders of Jesus' day, at least as reported by the gospels, often expressed the view that Jesus was too inclusive of sinners, tax collectors, women, prostitutes, Samaritans, the sick, the poor, the ostracized. This is the Jesus I really like! The one who excludes no one by virtue of their status in the worlds of culture, politics or religion.

 

Both you and I know that Jebus associated with those folks in order to bring them out of those lifestyles and make them into disciples. Otherwise, he wasn't living out his own Great Commission™. Again, Jebus is accused of stuff that isn't true by people out to do him in - in this case, the religious leaders of his time, who wouldn't have taken too kindly to a person like him. If Jebus really lived, he'd have been in hot water with the ancient Jews, just like in the NT stories.

 

Just because he hung out with "sinners" doesn't mean he approved of their lifestyles - we both know he wanted converts.

 

Maybe the slice I can cut off for now is just to point at how Jesus responded when his disciples were asking about why he taught in parables.

 

I know what Jebus said about that - "let those who have ears to hear, hear" or some such gobbledy gook.

 

In other words, Jebus was being deliberately misleading and only those who were brainwashed enough to "get" his point (ie, have ears to hear) would understand, whilst those who didn't "get it" (ie, wicked and eeevil unbelievers) would be just as confused as ever. Typical cult leader, speaking in confusing fashions to weed out those who will obey from those who think for themselves.

 

I guess I'll start by pointing at an answer Jesus gave - as well as the passage in Isaiah he refereed to as he was giving his answer. These passages have been some of the most perplexing things to me, especially as I have tired to compare what Jesus said with how the church today spreads the gospel.

 

Maybe they're preplexing because they're stupid and make no sense? Not everything that you can't figure out is because you're too dumb to understand. I dare to venture you already understand, on an instinctive level, that it's all bullshit.

 

At this time I am thinking the help of the Holy Spirit is very needed in order for me to be able to see the full coherence and beauty of many of the teachings of the Bible as a whole and of Jesus' teachings in particular. A complete and satisfying understanding certainly doesn't come easily to me - I guess I may be too much like the people God told Isaiah to preach to. (Man, I think I might have tried to un-volunteer after God told me what I was supposed to say.)

 

Or maybe you already know, like I've said. You have a brain and are capable of rational thought - you don't need any Holy Spurt anymore than I do or anyone else does.

 

Waste your time talking to yourself (which is all that prayers is, talking to oneself) all you like, but in the end you'll have no more answers than you do now. Unless you finally conclude that the idea of an all-knowing god who understands humanity and chooses such faulty and flighty methods of revealing and perpetuating his message as human language, human debating skills, and so forth is flat out impossible.

[Antlerman]

I have certainly felt the same during some extended periods of time - especially when I concentrate most on the Old Testament revelation of Him (though I realize I may not be interpreting things correctly - especially since I wasn't alive in those days and cultures). However, as I'm coming to believe Jesus is the best way God reveals who he is .... I'm putting some distance from my "God is mean" stance.

 

For instance, the way Jesus acted toward women seems (to me) to be markedly less mean when compared with how most mere men in that culture appeared for the most part to treat women as an inferior class.

 

Of course the gospel teaching about how Jesus loved "sinners" more than his very life (and reputation) also communicates a nicer image of God - certainly one less mean than the darker images I have entertained.

 

-Dennis

Hi Dennis, I too am still around, though you and I have never actually engaged much in any sort of involved dialog in the past. A couple of points I wish to raise. First of all, in reading what you say above I am struck with one word to describe what you are observing. Evolution.

 

God evolves, because man does along with his society's adapting to a changing culture. Something to consider.

 

Aside from this, though I didn't take the time to listen to that sermon, from other's responses to it I got the general gist of it. I posted something recently to someone else who had announced to her husband that she was an atheist. His response was that he couldn't understand what the purpose for living was if you didn't believe in an afterlife. The following thought occurred to me, and I wish to pose it to you for your thoughts on it. I feel it relates well to what you are talking about in living for pleasure in order to find a sense of joy to give to God for his glory. I'd like your thoughts on this:

I'm going to ask a Christian in some conversation soon that if God told you that you only have this life to live, and when you die you will be gone forever, would you still live for Jesus? If not, then isn't the basis for your faith in God a purely selfish one of wanting to live for ever and you don't really care that much about God? If not, and you would still worship God because you see the world He made is beautiful to you, and you feel thankful for that and wish to live your life to the fullest, loving and thanking Him for life, then how is it so hard to see how someone who doesn't believe in an afterlife can't find meaning in this world, with or without a belief in God?

 

Isn't it possible to love life the same as every other human being, without the added attaching of some anthropomorphized face of a human-like, Ultra-Being on top of it? Don't those feelings of love come from the same place? Do those feelings come from a teaching about gods, or from just living and being alive?

What I see is that God is the face of ourselves. Pleasure is a respite from the struggle of living. It is something we thirst after, we esteem as desirable, we elevate with romantic and mythological language to give it power in our lives to motivate us to press ahead in pursuit of reward, which once achieved gives us that sense of having touched that transcendent goal, that hand of the "divine", the sacred, or "God". You see, God is us. God is our desires. This is why the face of God changes and evolves with us as we evolve.

 

Your thoughts?

[SOIL]

...

... First of all, in reading what you say above I am struck with one word to describe what you are observing. Evolution.

Hi Antlerman - yeah I remember your handle ! - I'm glad you have posted here. There is a lot of meat in your post - I may need to give it some time to "digest" before I can say all that I already sense I want to say.

 

As far as the "Evolution" concept - I have considered what you are suggesting (quite a bit actually). I continue to weigh the idea I think you are proposing alongside another concept - one I suppose some folks might also refer to as an "Evolution" of sorts. God may exist independently from the minds and aspirations of us humans and although "truth" remains the same, his communication to us might appear very different based on how far we have matured or "evolved". Perhaps our culture and overall level of improvement as a species may effect our ability to comprehend what God would like for us to know about himself and also about ourselves. (Here I remember a scene from "A Few Good Men" - where the character played by Jack Nicholson - says (in effect) to the one played by Tom Cruise .... "You want the truth - You can't handle the truth" (unfortunately for this analogy Jack was playing the bad guy in this specific movie if my fuzzy memory is correct). At any rate, perhaps God would have been simply waisting his words/time if he were to give us "the straight-up story" before we had become "ready to understand". (Varokhar, am I right in understanding you think if God were to exist, he would need to communicate "straight-up" - with no obscurity - and maybe no variance even considering the level of evolution of mankind, at least - in order for you to recognize him as God?).

 

...

... Aside from this, though I didn't take the time to listen to that sermon, from other's responses to it I got the general gist of it.

Actually - from only words in this thread - I don't think you could really have got the gist of anywhere near everything that was discussed in that hour and 10 minutes (or whatever). BTW I have extracted some 10 to 15 minute clips (telephone audio quality) that are around 1 to 2 meg in size - if anyone would like to receive any as attachments - feel free to contact me (either by IM or email) and let me know where to send 'em.

 

I need to attend to some other things now - I just learned that a dear precious aunt has learned her cancer has spread into her stomach and she is looking at removing her feeding tube soon (she daily radiates "pleasure" - which she attributes to her relationship with Jesus - even though she hasn't been able to eat normally for maybe a year or so based on her fight with cancer).

 

Antlerman, I do plan to respond (in a separate post) in regard to your "what if" scenario about the lack of an afterlife and the idea of whether I would still want to "live for Jesus".

 

For now, I'll just quickly mention a recent experience when I watched the movie "The Nativity Story". I cried during several points throughout the movie (and for some sad reason I almost never am able to cry). I was pretty much awestruck by the beauty of the story (e.g. - the idea that God would become human and hence be better able to communicate to us about Himself and also to understand us better). I remembered some of the concepts I have read somewhere by J.R.R. Tolkien - ( I think it was in an essay named something like "On Faeire Stories") - where I got the idea he was saying the Gospel is of the highest sort of myth - a category where story actually happened - in real space-time history.

 

Sorry about not doing much editing on this post - but I need to go now.

 

Thanks for your thought-provoking sincere post Anchorman.

 

-Dennis

[currentchristian]

...

... I respect that each of us only has so much time - and if you decide to use over an hour of yours to listen to that talk and then even more to put your comments here ...

...

-Dennis

Maybe such a time commitment needs some kind of "teaser" to encourage takers to listen to more -- So attached is an MP3 file containing a 27 second excerpt.

 

-Dennis

 

How long is the entire sermon? I tried listening to it, but turned it off within a minute when it was too christian-y for me, and I'm Christian!

 

-CC in MA

 

Okay, SOIL, I went to Piper's website again today (this is a new name to me, so interesting that he's been around so long and I missed him). In looking at the site more closely I'm actually impressed by its organization, ease of use, as well as the depth of Piper's work. I have downloaded the teaching you linked to as well as several others that seemed interesting. I have a 1,200-mile drive coming up next week back to my "ancestral home" in Missouri (some sore of "census" going on! ), so I will spend a chunk of my drive with these teachings and get back to you after the holidays!

 

Thanks for the link. My judgment the other day was hasty!

 

-CC

[currentchristian]

Hi Soil,

 

Today I listened to the sermon you linked to in the first post. Piper is a smart man, a good speaker, and I really like that he opens the floor to Q&A after his sermon. I wish more preachermen and preacherwomen did this so that the congregation has the opportunity to respond, seek clarification, and even offer a dissenting view.

 

Piper's view is that God wants us to maximize our pleasure. Four things prevent this from happening, in Piper's view: the wrath of God; suffering; substituting worldly pleasure (money, fame, sex) for godly pleasure; and death. Christianity offers a way to overcome all four: God's wrath is appeased by means of the Jesus event; suffering is to be eliminated as much as possible in this life by all means available and will be completely eliminated in the world to come; we can learn to choose the better thing which brings more intense and longer lasting real pleasure as opposed to the passing pleasures of this life; and in Christ we overcome death.

 

He did a good job offering a thesis, laying out his points, staying on topic, addressing each point and wrapping things up. Since I am Christian, while I might say things a different way and I don't believe in hell so I wouldn't talk about that at all, overall his points made significant (though not total) sense to me, as a person of faith.

 

I'll listen to other sermons Wednesday and Thursday as I drive 1200 miles home.

 

-CC

[SOIL]

I apologize to everyone about the extended "leave of absence" I have taken.

 

Sorry, but I don't even have time just now to read the posts since my most recent one.

 

I will try to get back here and reply some more though (especially I need to answer Antlerman's question - for instance).

 

Since I was here last, I have seen the movie "The Nativity Story" and it really moved me. Also I listened to the audio version of "The Problem of Pain" by C.S. Lewis. My faith has been helped by both. Also - I just read through a site that some of you may want to comment on (I think it will be especially interesting to anyone who may have been dragged to see that movie) Here is the link: What was the star?

 

Well - I must get to sleep - ( cause I have another long drive tomorrow - maybe I can listen some more to the chapters on heaven and hell in The Problem of Pain (Antlerman - there are some sentences in that book that I will likely capture on another short audio clip to use as I finally get around to answering your question).

 

Again - I apologize for my recent AWOL ( A lot of unplanned things popped up - also I am lazy and sinful, etc...)

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

CC,

 

I don't know if you are back yet - but I hope you did get to listen to more Piper. I also drove a couple of thousand miles and I enjoyed listening to some Peter Kreeft (as well as some New Testament in The Message and Lewis audio books). Here are a couple of cool talks in particular - Divine Truth—The Heart's Deepest Longing and Sex in Heaven.

 

Got to go.

 

-Dennis

[Vixentrox]

Did you heal your aunt? Christians supposed to be able to perform healings. Did a couple of you pray for healing? God is supposed to give you what you ask for.

[Shawn]

Blah blah blah...

 

The Bible God always has an excuse for everything, just like his good for nothing son. He couldn't do a miracle for anything. See, in order to do a Jesus H. Christ miracle, you have to stupidly follow along with everything, even when it's contradictory! So, the miracles don't often happen. Read the fucking book of Jude...he quotes 2 books that are not even accepted!!! Enoch, and some other book where Saytan wants the body of Moses. Where in the hell was this story in the OT, where we read Moses died and was buried. No supernatural combat, nada. zip. SO, why even quote Jude? What else is wrong? And we know for a fact that the translators often played with words or added stuff so the Bible would flow better. Revelations almost didn't even make it in! Yet Enoch was considered canon before Revelations! "My Werd is established in Heaven!" Jude? Enoch? hmmm.

 

As a 'sorceror'...I don't hold back. I GET what I want, by force of will and manifesting it. I found that if you believe enough, WITHOUT Jaysus, stuff happens! By golly George! All the days of "Jaysus", I saw a few miracles, but nothing quite frankly, that impresses me now. I put up with so much shit I could write a book the size of Merriam Webster's 2006 edition Dictionary. I'm sure other X's here have had some of the same stuff happen. There's probably X's here that put up with more crap than me by far, and don't even want to talk about it anymore! Fuck, I wouldn't!

 

Alot of BS, for a room in Heaven, MAYBE. Don't give up, if you lose faith right before you die, to hell with ya, bum! Another wrong translation...in the KJV it says "Mansions", when in the common greek it says "dwelling". Hey, hold on a second...the Bible says that I can't be plucked from Jaysus, no matter what! But now I have to endure or lose the prize, sezs Paul! Gee, I'm so confused? Maybe I'll ask the 'Jesus Spirit'...Ohhh Lord, what to do? JS: "Buy Mango juice, instead of grape! And stop wearing that synthetic sports shirt, you'll become gay! Or maybe the chicks will lust for ya!!! BAD, BAD, BAAAD!!!" Whaaaa????

 

Ever notice Bible God goes through alot of mood changes? In the OT he can be nice, then cruel, then just plain nuts? He allows things in the OT that I am cool with...300 concubines? 700 wives? You can kill a thief on the spot? Some fucker who commits a crime against you, MUST pay restitution? COOL. Ohhhhh, but now, with Jaysus, we can't do shit! Walk in fear, pray to have your ass kicked! Pray for some asshole to steal your shit...then give him your clothes, too. Maybe even a few rounds with your wife in your bedroom! Don't worry, the so-called holy spurt will tell you what to do! Really? I was fucking uber Christian for 4 years! I had faith like few have...I asked the 'holy spurt' to help me...tell me what to do, Lord? Not a fucking thing! He was such a prick, he didn't do what would have been right, more than a few times, buddy! Nothing but a fucking demon...

 

But anyway, back to Jaysus....hell, don't marry according to the goddamn fucker Christ! It's just easier to live burning with lust! Oh, hold on....Paul says otherwise! Hey, my wife is a rebellious, Bible rejecting bitch! Tough, you married her, says Jaysus! BUT...if she keeps making things hard, and puts space in the marriage...you can leave her, because the Daddy in Heaven wants us to live in peace! Oh, hey, if we had all followed Jaysus's advice back in 32 AD or what have you to not marry...NOBODY would be here!!! I mean, he's GAWD, so he's ALWAYS right! So, according to GOD...the earth should be empty, and left to the animals! I bet that makes the tree huggers happy! Maybe the leprechauns would have come back!

 

Jesus says he's God. There is ample proof he is not. If he was God, why was it so hard to cast out Legion? It clearly says there was an issue! He has to make a deal with a bunch of filthy demons? "He always does good!" SO he ruins a man's livelihood and kills 2,000 pigs...probably ruined a few people's lives! Oh, but this is in accordance with God...read the book of Job.

 

Here's another one. If he was God, why did it take a few shots of power to heal the blind man? "Oh, well Shawn, the blind guy didn't have enough faith, so Jaysus had to give him a 'pep' talk."

 

Gimmie a break! SO, if it was the man's faith, I guess Jaysus didn't heal him! The man healed himself! Maybe the blind man (excuse me, former blind man) is really God!

 

If he was God, why did he not know everything? He even admits he doesn't know everything. And Hebrews backs this up! Doesn't God KNOW everything? He even says "I live to serve the Father"...but then he says, "I AM!"

 

The Bible is filled with so many convoluted tales. I believe some are true, only because archeologist have dug shit up (uh oh! More lack of faith! I should just believe, not trust silly men. Evidence schmevidence!). But it still doesn't solve Bible God's wacko methods and reasonings. Sometimes, he doesn't do shit at all. Oh well!

 

I love how God couldn't give the jews victory in the OT because of...IRON CHARIOTS!!! Yet he can appear to Moses on Mt. Sinai, throw fire and lightning everywhere, ect...BUT IRON CHARIOTS ARE TOO TOUGH FOR GAWD! Hmm, if only they were bronze! We would have won!!!! Maybe Hot Wheels die cast metal!

 

Why is it as man progresses in cities and urban development...we see less of God? The Bible shows this too. Maybe it's like the stories of the 'little people' and leprechauns in England...they were everywhere until...FARMS AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT!

 

There's even an old English bar song about that, saying basically the elves of old departed because the factories and cities came...boo hoo, David Bowie got scared of society and tractors! LOL...what a fucking joke! And now we have UFO's!!! More delusions, in all likelihood! "I WISH it were true!" *poof*! Here's Tinkerbell!

 

Here's a shout out to GAWD...

Hey GOD, I think you are a fucking LOSER...if you do exist, and there's some evidence for it, a created universe that is, you are NOTHING anyway. In fact, most of the people here were more hard core for you than the idiots out there still prancing around for Jaysus, ignorant of the Bible and thinking that just believing in Jaysus is enough (when the Werd says this is not so, Daniel San!). But where were you anyway, Lard? What a joke...busy getting blown by Mary, the tortilla goddess!

 

The silly and ignorant prancing Jesusites still believe because they are stupid and have a double-digit IQ. I have noticed, very dumb people stay with Jaysus forever. Martin Luther once said..."The damned whore reason!!!" LOL, yeah Martin, they used their brains. The ones that your God gave them that you decided not to use. Dumb ass.

 

I agree with Vixentrox, the Bible sezs so!

 

<EOM>

 

Shawn

[Shawn]

See, in order to do a Jesus H. Christ miracle, you have to stupidly follow along with everything, even when it's contradictory! So, the miracles don't often happen.

 

What I meant was, that there is always a verse against a verse in the Bible. And being how people are, thye will always take a negative verse to justify NOT praying for something or someone. "It's the Lard's will". Great. That's what German and French crusaders used to say before they lances babies and pregnant mothers. "GOD WILLS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" It's great, I have Medieval: Total War II and a $700 NVIDIA graphics card. I get to be a total dickhead, just like the old days!!! "Pope, what should I do to these pagans and muslims on my borders?" Pope "Burn them all, kill them. Kill them...for Jesus. Execute order 77". "Yes Darth Sidious, I mean Holy Father, the Bishop of Rome!"

 

***

 

"Thou shall not kill!" \o/!!!!

 

Unless it's fer Gawd!!!! DA DUM!

 

***

 

"Thou shall not steal!" \o/!!!

 

Unless it's fer Gawd!!! DA DUM!

 

***

 

"Thous shall not lie!" \o/!!!

 

Unless it's fer Gawd!!! DA DUM!

 

***

 

Ect...ad nauseum.

 

 

When you were a Christian, did you ever notice that most Christians pray like this..."Lard, if it's YOUR will, we ask that Tommy gets a baloney sandwich today!"

 

OK. Tommy if fucking hungry, and needs food...do we really need to make it a coin toss? May as well say, "If you feel like it God."

 

Hell, Samson practically yelled at God to give him water!

 

Anyway...what does the Bible say? "Ask in FAITH and CONFIDENCE THAT HE WILL ANSWER." basically, that's what it says. If you are wishy-washy or doubt, forget it. Book of James

 

And how do most Christians pray again? "Ohhhh LARD!!!! If you feel like healin' baby Herman of his testicular nerve bunion..."

 

Fuck, thats one reason I went solo! I'd ask Christians to pray with me on something I needed, and they were like "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh brotherrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!! Is THAT what the LORD wants? Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh and an extra Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!" No, asshole, it's what I NEED becasue I am FUCKING IN A BIND!!! Jack ass fuck!!! And I sure won't ask you for a few bucks! Now, I did not use such language then, or even think that way (foulness, I guess)...but I could not believe how stingy and mean these people were! I'd go home in tears sometimes (I was a softie then). In fact, I do apologize for my foul mouth, I know I have an issue with it.

 

How I 'pray' now..."I DEMAND XXXX FROM THIS TIGHT-WAD F'ING UNIVERSE!!!! GIVE IT TO ME, NOWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!" WHA-BAM!

 

pretty holy.

 

Or I use..."dark sentences" that elicit a response.

 

Basically, from years of being a nice guy who got shit on and had my prayers hampered by others who were too faithless and limp dicked themselves to ask for anything, I now do stuff that's 'unconventional'.

 

and presto, I get it. :-) *bling*

 

 

Shawn

[SOIL]

Oscar Wilde had something to say about everything.

...

-CC

CC,

Interesting you should bring up Oscar Wilde ...

 

Ravi Zacharias has written an interesting little book: Sense and Sensuality where he produces a fictional dialog between Jesus and Oscar Wild (with some Blaise Pascal thrown in as well) ... I sure wish the full text were available on-line - or at least more than the "look inside" at Amazon ... in my opinion it is very much worth reading. Judging from the comments at Amazon, it looks like it usually hits people strongly in one direction or the other.

 

(I'm not sure if each person sees the same page when clicking on "Surprise Me" in Amazon's "Search inside this book", but the page I see (after giving my password) gives a bit of a taste for some of what the book is like.

 

On the surface one might think this varies from some of what I have said as relates to John Piper's views about pleasure - but I think if you could read the whole little book - you might see things are not that clear cut.

 

I think there is something relating to what I consider the "moral underpinnings" (or sense of "rightness" and "wrongness") - which I think is rooted in just about everyone - that seems to make the deepest pleasure depend somehow on knowing that there is a moral good and that I am at least in some way progressing in that direction - even if I must rely completely on assistance from the one singular most "right" human representative (i.e Jesus, God in human flesh).

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

Shawn,

 

Sounded to me like you needed to vent - I'm not sure if you want any feedback from me or not.

 

-Dennis

[Shawn]

Shawn,

 

Sounded to me like you needed to vent - I'm not sure if you want any feedback from me or not.

 

-Dennis

 

Only if you want to.

 

 

Shawn

[currentchristian]

CC,

 

I don't know if you are back yet - but I hope you did get to listen to more Piper. I also drove a couple of thousand miles and I enjoyed listening to some Peter Kreeft (as well as some New Testament in The Message and Lewis audio books). Here are a couple of cool talks in particular - Divine Truth—The Heart's Deepest Longing and Sex in Heaven.

 

Got to go.

 

-Dennis

 

Hi SOIL,

 

Yep, I'm back. After nearly 3 weeks home and mainly away from the Internet, this week brought me back to Massachusetts and back to the "real" virtual world.

 

Lots of driving! One blow-out. Kitty traveled well. We left the car in MO and flew back. Kitty flew well, too.

 

Got to listen to about 10 Piper sermons. He's a good speaker, makes some really good points, has a different take on things (which I like a lot!). Thanks for the introduction.

 

-CC in MA

[QuinnTheEskimo]

So it's taken me a couple of days to get back to this topic due to various fair and lousy reasons, but I made it. I'm glad to have seen this post, as just about a week ago I finished a book by Piper, "Don't Waste Your Life." (The book was given to me by a close friend as a christmas present.) I began to read it pretty lazily, but as soon as I got into it I was struck with conviction in my life. That book really took toll on me, really got me to thinking about my life, and about my relationship with Jesus. God has really been doing a lot of work on my life lately, fixing loose screws and such.

 

Piper brings up some good views. Everything was created to bring glory to God's name. God wants for all of us to live our lives through Him, and to take joy in doing so.

 

1 Corinthians 10

31"Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God"

 

The problems I have with this is that I do not and cannot do everything for the glory of God. I am a sinful man, and even doing things that would be seemingly glorifying to God, I can make them sinful. Worldy pleasures catch me off guard all the time, whether that be lustful thoughts or just sitting on this computer too much. Sometimes, my life is filled up with all this busy and unfulfilling junk.

 

So when it all comes down to it, the question he asks us is are we being used by God?

 

The way that God uses us is to have us doing the will of God and taking pleasure in it. If all we're doing is acting like a Christian, but all the while feeling like it's a waste, or feeling like we aren't doing anything, then what good is it? How would anybody know how amazing and fulfilling and wonderful having life in Jesus Christ as our savior is, unless they see how much we actually value it? If we say we are Christians, yet we turn our ears from listening to others, or we don't show love to our enemies, or we act as though we are just living by a set of rules, then we are not actually following God.

 

And just to clarify, having an amazing, fulfilling, and wonderful life in Jesus does not mean our worldy life will always be anywhere near that. Jesus tell us that as much suffering, torment, mockery, and ridicule that He has been put through, we will be likely to endure just the same.

 

Taking pleasure in Christ as our King gives glory to God and gives us joy. If we do not take joy in Christ, we do not show Him love. Even in hard times, even when we get in wrecks, or our close ones get deathly sick, and our lives just seem to be going down hill, we should be taking joy in Christ.

 

All that we have in this world was given to us by God. Whatever we are given, we should take and use to the glory of God; no matter how much or how little. It's like Jesus's parable of the talents. The master was leaving and he divided up his talents. He came back and all but one of them had doubled what they were given. We are meant to take what God gives us and multiply it.

 

Piper talks a lot about "Wartime Lifestyle" In his book he brings up past wars in america, how everybody did everything they could for the war. People would leave their jobs to go off to war, businesses would close and factories would work production only for war time materials. Food was rationed, clothing was rationed, everything was put to use for the war. He brings up the point that as Christians, we are at war. We cannot just be lazying around, following our normal routines, sitting down at the tv every night, and just going with the flow of things. We need to take a stand, get out from our comfort zone, and actually live our lives for God.

 

This dosn't mean that we need to stop everything, quit our jobs, quit hanging around with secular friends, or stop taking time out with our families, and go to a foreign country and be missionaries. Although, some of us are called to do so, and that is great. But what it means is that God gives us all gifts to use. Wherever we are, whatever we are doing, we are meant to be working towards the glorification of Christ.

 

Piper has some really great stuff, in his book and that sermom which you linked. I enjoyed both very thoroughly. My time at this post has been cut, as I've got an agenda to attend.

 

Romans 15

13"May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace."

We cannot make ourselves or anybody take joy in Christ, only the Holy Spirit can.

[Lycorth]

Oh for fuck's sake, dude

 

First of all, you're not at war with anything or anyone except yourself. You believe all this self-hating trash about you being "sinful" (hence, scum in need of "salvation") and needing to constantly stroke the ego of a being who is shouldn't need it at all - no wonder you have "loose screws" to fix.

 

Let me give it to you straight. I know you'll not want to hear it, will probably deny it, and will probably try to "correct" me, but I used to be right where you are. I thought I was worthless, unworthy, and needed some "superior" being to tell me I was ok - and I was willing to do whatever it took to persuade that being to find me loveable. I bought wholesale the tripe about me being naturally evil because I am human, and that I am naturally prone to sin and failure because my natural instincts are wicked.

 

That never helped one bit with my depression, and in fact I believe it allowed depression to flourish in me for over 15 years. Only now am I actually doing something constructive about it, instead of scoffing at modern medicine and thinking that God will save me from it if I just keep believing all the self-debasing trash and suck up to him enough.

 

Now, I am actually on a better road in life after learning there is no God to suck up to, to think that I'm scum, or to beg "salvation" from.

 

I don't know if you're depressed, just going through some rough times, or feeling ok with things. That's not my point. My point is simply that when I read or hear human beings saying or writing about how they are "sinful" and hence worthless, as if we're somehow born "wrong" and fucked-up from the start, it makes me angry. It's nothing more than self-hating cult propaganda designed to elicit a psychological addiction to the illusion of "acceptance" the believer thinks he or she gets from God and hence further one's attachment to the cult itself.

 

All it is is spirtual narcotics; just like the smooth-tongued drug dealer who encourages you to buy his dope because you "need it" and your life will be painful and dull without it, so too are the Xian preachers and other evangelists who try to tell you that you're worthless garbage (citing your human imperfections and mistakes as evidence of this) because it is intrinsic to human nature to be evil, and hence you need Jebus and need to believe all that or else your life on earth will be drab (and evil) and you'll suffer eternal pain if you die.

 

Hell, I don't care if you don't respond to this, but I know people lurk in and out of places like this, and I hate the thought that someone believing the same lies that were believed by Xians who came before you isn't given a dose of common sense in response.

 

Human beings invented all religions. All of them. All the moral codes, all the rituals, all the myths and stories - all of it. Hence, we are capable of discerning right and wrong for ourselves. We are our own gods and we don't need to make false gods out of thin air and our own self-hatred. We don't need spiritual narcotics and harmful psychological addictions to make us feel good - we only need to realize we are what we are and we ought to learn to see the good in it. Only then will we bring about any good in this world.

 

We bring no love into this world by learning how to hate ourselves.

[mwc]

The problems I have with this is that I do not and cannot do everything for the glory of God. I am a sinful man, and even doing things that would be seemingly glorifying to God, I can make them sinful. Worldy pleasures catch me off guard all the time, whether that be lustful thoughts or just sitting on this computer too much. Sometimes, my life is filled up with all this busy and unfulfilling junk.

 

So when it all comes down to it, the question he asks us is are we being used by God?

Sadly, this is the guilt mentallity that has been put into the religion.

 

As much as I'd love to hammer it home to make a point, you caught me at a good time, so I won't. One thing this does show is the need for a good, readable, bible and the ability to back off the guilt.

 

Here's the same set of verses from a different translation:

 

"30 But if I give praise to God for the food which I take, let no man say evil of me for that reason. 31 So then, if it is a question of food or drink, or any other thing, whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no cause of trouble to Jews, or to Greeks, or to the church of God."

 

It basically just says be thankful and don't get in other peoples way. Can you do that? If so, then drop the guilt.

 

It's all the hangups about porn and this and that and the other that religion is basically destroying people with. It does far more harm than good.

 

The way that God uses us is to have us doing the will of God and taking pleasure in it. If all we're doing is acting like a Christian, but all the while feeling like it's a waste, or feeling like we aren't doing anything, then what good is it? How would anybody know how amazing and fulfilling and wonderful having life in Jesus Christ as our savior is, unless they see how much we actually value it? If we say we are Christians, yet we turn our ears from listening to others, or we don't show love to our enemies, or we act as though we are just living by a set of rules, then we are not actually following God.

So tell me. What does a "Christian" act like? Based on the what you're saying right in this paragraph I can use your words and make a few minor alterations and tell you what a Pharisee acts like. You want people to see how great it is to be a certain way. The bigger the better. Put on a good show for me. Don't accept any dissent in the ranks over your scripture. Xians wouldn't see jesus today just as they claim he wasn't seen back then and for the same reasons. That's right. Modern day xians are todays Pharisees. Nifty isn't it? But true nonetheless.

 

And just to clarify, having an amazing, fulfilling, and wonderful life in Jesus does not mean our worldy life will always be anywhere near that. Jesus tell us that as much suffering, torment, mockery, and ridicule that He has been put through, we will be likely to endure just the same.

Then it's lucky for xians that jesus endured very little of these things.

 

Taking pleasure in Christ as our King gives glory to God and gives us joy. If we do not take joy in Christ, we do not show Him love. Even in hard times, even when we get in wrecks, or our close ones get deathly sick, and our lives just seem to be going down hill, we should be taking joy in Christ.

Why? You do realize that the early church didn't have these same feelings, right? They just wanted people to live "righteous." Mainly adultry was at, or near, the top of their lists. They were far more concerned with establishing a church and bishops and deacons and the like.

 

Piper talks a lot about "Wartime Lifestyle" In his book he brings up past wars in america, how everybody did everything they could for the war. People would leave their jobs to go off to war, businesses would close and factories would work production only for war time materials. Food was rationed, clothing was rationed, everything was put to use for the war. He brings up the point that as Christians, we are at war. We cannot just be lazying around, following our normal routines, sitting down at the tv every night, and just going with the flow of things. We need to take a stand, get out from our comfort zone, and actually live our lives for God.

 

This dosn't mean that we need to stop everything, quit our jobs, quit hanging around with secular friends, or stop taking time out with our families, and go to a foreign country and be missionaries. Although, some of us are called to do so, and that is great. But what it means is that God gives us all gifts to use. Wherever we are, whatever we are doing, we are meant to be working towards the glorification of Christ.

Obviously you need to go read Acts again. After that the early church fathers. You should be living more the communist lifestyle. Go sell your stuff and give all the procedes to the church so it can be spread around. Take care of widows and orphans. Get rich people to donate. If possible convert, but if not, you can save them by proxy as long as they donate money. You are also responsible for your entire household so if they keep messing up you might not see the resurrection. Get on them about that. In fact, the lifestyle that nearly all Americans live would pretty much screw the pooch according to the early church writings.

 

But I guess our modern interpretations, a couple thousand years removed, are a bit more accurate than those a mere century, give or take, after the supposed events so just forget what I said.

 

mwc

[QuinnTheEskimo]

To Varokhar: I am not saying I am worthless or anything like that; I am not sure how we got onto the topic of self esteem. I am deeply sorry if you have despression troubles, however that really does not tie in with being sinful or not. Humans are sinful by nature, that dosnt mean I hate myself, or anything even close. God created me, God loves me, therefore I am to love myself; but there's no need to go off on that tangent. As for me, being human, I commit sins. Fortunately, Christ died on the cross for my sins and I am forgiven. I take joy in Christ on the cross. Without Jesus Christ, I would be stuck in a life of sacrificing animals and burning incense for my sins. I am extremely thankful for Christ, He saves my life. I don't think I would be able to live up to all those laws.

 

Here's the same set of verses from a different translation:

 

"30 But if I give praise to God for the food which I take, let no man say evil of me for that reason. 31 So then, if it is a question of food or drink, or any other thing, whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no cause of trouble to Jews, or to Greeks, or to the church of God."

 

It basically just says be thankful and don't get in other peoples way. Can you do that? If so, then drop the guilt.

 

Let's look at the context of this verse, it is talking about our neighbors. Many people at that time would not eat just any meat. What Jesus is saying, is that no matter what food you eat, it will not defile you. In order to not offend your neighbor, you should not even ask about the food, but partake of it after blessing the meal. God tells us to love our neighbors, and in order to follow Christ, as we are in his image, we should not bring them down in anything we do; but through glorifying God in all that we do, we show love and Christ through our lives.

 

Going back to my original statement, I am a sinful man by nature; I do not always do everything to the glory of God.

 

So tell me. What does a "Christian" act like? Based on the what you're saying right in this paragraph I can use your words and make a few minor alterations and tell you what a Pharisee acts like. You want people to see how great it is to be a certain way. The bigger the better. Put on a good show for me. Don't accept any dissent in the ranks over your scripture. Xians wouldn't see jesus today just as they claim he wasn't seen back then and for the same reasons. That's right. Modern day xians are todays Pharisees. Nifty isn't it? But true nonetheless.

 

Maybe I was misunderstood?. To re-examine what I said, I said that as christians we should not just "act" like it. If we are not actually taking life in Jesus Christ, nobody will ever see how glorious God is. If all we do is say we are christians, but we do not follow Christ, then we are exactly like the pharisees.

 

Then it's lucky for xians that jesus endured very little of these things.

 

I'm not going to go into this subject right now as Jesus's life is in the New Testament.

 

Why? You do realize that the early church didn't have these same feelings, right? They just wanted people to live "righteous." Mainly adultry was at, or near, the top of their lists. They were far more concerned with establishing a church and bishops and deacons and the like.

 

Taking the first churches that were set up by the apostles. There are many letters by the apostle Paul in the New Testament concerning behavior of christians. He continued to preach the joy of giving, of loving our neighbors, of spreading the good news of Jesus. So yes, the first churches were concerned with feelings for joy in Christ. Infact, the churches were set up because of Christ.

 

Obviously you need to go read Acts again. After that the early church fathers. You should be living more the communist lifestyle. Go sell your stuff and give all the procedes to the church so it can be spread around. Take care of widows and orphans. Get rich people to donate. If possible convert, but if not, you can save them by proxy as long as they donate money. You are also responsible for your entire household so if they keep messing up you might not see the resurrection. Get on them about that. In fact, the lifestyle that nearly all Americans live would pretty much screw the pooch according to the early church writings.

 

Yes, it would be great if at this point in my life I would give up everything that I owned and become a missionary. However, at the point I am at right now I do not think God is calling me to do so. Maybe one say I will. No matter what happens, I know I will be serving purpose for God. As Piper said, some of us are called to do that, some of us are not. How would these missionaries get funded if nobody had a job, or any belongings? That is why we should give what we can, and in our work take joy that we can glorify God by giving happily.

 

As for responsibility for the entire household, yes. However we are just as responsible for our household as for all of our neighbors. We should always be there as a witness to them. On one hand, I cannot convert anyone. On the other, I take joy in knowing that God knows who will join Him and when exactly that will be. Even though I cannot bear to think of my father not going to heaven, it is not up to me to decide how it should be. I will continue to work in his life, but ultimately God is in control.

 

Hopefully I have given some sort of clarity to my earlier statements, I am not trying to start anything.

[Lycorth]

Humans are sinful by nature, that dosnt mean I hate myself, or anything even close.

 

Sure about that? If you think humans are sinful (ie, deserving of punishment for being inherently bad), how is that not a misanthropic statement? I believe this when I was a Xian, and though there were plenty of times I didn't look negatively on humanity, there were plenty of times I did, and more often, because I believed that humans are inherently sick. Hatred for humanity, or at least disdain, is a very easy step up from thinking we're inherently wicked and even the best of us need a god to tell us we're a-ok before we actually are.

 

If Xianity was truly not human-hating, there'd be no need for a savior or any concept posited that we are inherently wrong. When humans claim other humans are inherently wrong, as per the arguments of racists or sexists, we rail against those ideas and expose the inherent wickedness in them. But when a religion posits it, people celebrate it. That is a contradiction in terms and it must be stated that there is no difference between the misanthropies of racism or sexism and those of Xianity.

 

Without Jesus Christ, I would be stuck in a life of sacrificing animals and burning incense for my sins.

 

And you don't see the prejudice inherent in that remark? You wouldn't be stuck in anything, much less sadistic religious acts based on superstitions, because you are human and can choose your own way. And instead of believing in animal sacrifice, now you believe in human sacrifice - both the human sacrifice of Jebus and the eternal human sacrifice of those in Hell who displease your god. I'd hardly call that a much better path.

 

Just pointing out a few things for you to ponder.

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Sure about that? If you think humans are sinful (ie, deserving of punishment for being inherently bad), how is that not a misanthropic statement? I believe this when I was a Xian, and though there were plenty of times I didn't look negatively on humanity, there were plenty of times I did, and more often, because I believed that humans are inherently sick. Hatred for humanity, or at least disdain, is a very easy step up from thinking we're inherently wicked and even the best of us need a god to tell us we're a-ok before we actually are.

 

If Xianity was truly not human-hating, there'd be no need for a savior or any concept posited that we are inherently wrong. When humans claim other humans are inherently wrong, as per the arguments of racists or sexists, we rail against those ideas and expose the inherent wickedness in them. But when a religion posits it, people celebrate it. That is a contradiction in terms and it must be stated that there is no difference between the misanthropies of racism or sexism and those of Xianity.

 

"Hate the sin, love the sinner." We are sinful because of Satan, we are cleansed because of Christ. Because God created all of us, we are all to love one another. Same with a racist or a sexist. No matter what the sin is, they are still creations of God, and therefore I am to love them. Jesus says the only thing we should hate is Satan.

 

And you don't see the prejudice inherent in that remark? You wouldn't be stuck in anything, much less sadistic religious acts based on superstitions, because you are human and can choose your own way. And instead of believing in animal sacrifice, now you believe in human sacrifice - both the human sacrifice of Jebus and the eternal human sacrifice of those in Hell who displease your god. I'd hardly call that a much better path.

 

Just pointing out a few things for you to ponder.

 

You are right, I would not be "stuck" in anything. We always have choice. I used stuck only because of the harsh law required in the Old Testament.

Without Jesus Christ, if I still wanted my sins to be forgiven, I would have to live a life of sacrificing animals and burning incense.

[Lycorth]

"Hate the sin, love the sinner." We are sinful because of Satan, we are cleansed because of Christ.

 

But we're really not "cleansed" because of Jebus. If we were, sin would not exist. The death of Jebus is only said to offer us a choice between Heaven and Hell - it doesn't remove Hell, sin, and the Devil and it didn't create a paradise. If Jebus' death didn't restore the world to the Garden of Eden, then his death was pointless.

 

And expecting people to believe in Jebus and love him and such or else they'll be tortured forever is blackmail, not love. You may have been taught to believe that, but if you examine it on its face, Xianity is just blackmail. God says "love and believe or I'll hurt you!". That's not love.

 

Jesus says the only thing we should hate is Satan.

 

Not so. He also said we must hate our parents, our possessions, and ourselves if we are to be worthy of him. In essence, we must reject everything and consider it wicked and inferior to Jebus. That also includes humanity, the only race of beings in Xian mythology who is inherently evil and needs a savior.

 

You are right, I would not be "stuck" in anything. We always have choice. I used stuck only because of the harsh law required in the Old Testament.

Without Jesus Christ, if I still wanted my sins to be forgiven, I would have to live a life of sacrificing animals and burning incense.

 

Just out of curiosity, which religion were you before Xianity?

[trashy]

I don't know about any one else in this thread, but just listening to that 27-second excerpt almost sent me on a bad trip. Visions of endless hours suffering through preachers and teachers. :ugh:Ugh.

 

I did, however, find an article by this Piper guy regarding Christian Hedonism - I will assume the original audio link is him waxing eloquent along similar lines.

 

Dennis, first it is nice to 'meet' you although I'm fairly burned out on the Christianese you use liberally. But at least you aren't yelling. I think I can sum up Piper's view on this from the article link:

 

1) God offers eternal reward while requiring temporal sacrifice

2) Christians should not focus on the temporal but eternal aspects

3) The eternal reward is pleasurable, therefore Christians should focus on pleasure

 

something like that any way.

 

Oddly enough this reminded me of the motivation of Islamic militants who blow themselves and others up in order to gain eternal bliss surrounded by virgins (which they evidently can then make into non-virgins...)

 

In other words, terrorists are following that advice to an extent. I'm not saying that Jesus taught people to kill, just that the motivation of devout Christians and extremist Muslims isn't so far apart. I'm not sure that says much good regarding Christianity.

[trashy]

I apologize to everyone about the extended "leave of absence" I have taken.

what, a week and you're apologizing? Please....no need, really

Also - I just read through a site that some of you may want to comment on (I think it will be especially interesting to anyone who may have been dragged to see that movie) Here is the link: What was the star?

As one who sees very little fact in any of the gospels the whole account of the magi is rather weak. Only those superstitious souls who look for signs see connections between current events and ancient texts.

 

Again - I apologize for my recent AWOL ( A lot of unplanned things popped up - also I am lazy and sinful, etc...)

Enough with the apologies already! Sheesh! LOL

[mwc]

Let's look at the context of this verse, it is talking about our neighbors. Many people at that time would not eat just any meat. What Jesus is saying, is that no matter what food you eat, it will not defile you. In order to not offend your neighbor, you should not even ask about the food, but partake of it after blessing the meal. God tells us to love our neighbors, and in order to follow Christ, as we are in his image, we should not bring them down in anything we do; but through glorifying God in all that we do, we show love and Christ through our lives.

Do you really want to play the context game? Firstly, people of the time did eat all meats. The question is who is the intended target audience for the letter and this will tell you what foods those who were to get this particular letter most likely ate. So I'll leave it to you to tell me if the people at Corinth were Jews, and ate the Jewish diet, or if they were not, and ate a wide variety of foods. Perhaps there's even that third option that says there's a mix of both.

 

So, all that aside, lets looks at the context. What Paul, not jesus as you state, is saying is that it is okay to eat whatever meat is set in front of you and it won't defile you. Why would Paul say this? If we believe Paul this would probably be because his father wasn't a Jew (which why he was a Roman) and his mother was Jewish. I'm sure he was given many such foods growing up and had no ill effects. He does place on limit on them and that is you cannot take from an offering. This is a problem since offering meals were often free for the poor (you'll see this come up many times in the early church).

 

Sadly, jesus himself, while he does say that it is not what goes into a person but what comes out that defiles him, is not speaking of the food rules because he also says that he isn't going to be changing any of the Law either...which would keep all food regulation in place. Paul and jesus are speaking of two different things.

 

Anyhow, my original point was to just basically sum up Paul's point in general. Not really to argue the passage (I thought I even alluded to that).

 

Going back to my original statement, I am a sinful man by nature; I do not always do everything to the glory of God.

And it seems to distress you. This can be seen like this: "I am a good person" OR "I am a bad person." Only one word is different but it casts the entire sentence, and the entire outlook of things in a different light. Saying "I am sinful" taints things.

 

Maybe I was misunderstood?. To re-examine what I said, I said that as christians we should not just "act" like it. If we are not actually taking life in Jesus Christ, nobody will ever see how glorious God is. If all we do is say we are christians, but we do not follow Christ, then we are exactly like the pharisees.

No, I understood you, but I knew while writing what I said that it wasn't coming out right (although I was hoping it would). Again, you should re-read Acts. If you are truly xian then what you are saying cannot be happening. The spirit will come and you WILL act a certain way and you WILL act as a unit with other xians. This IS what is written. However, since this is also hand-waived into oblivion by the likes of Paul then Acts can simply be ignored.

 

But you never answered my question. How does a real xian act? Not to mean you are putting on an act but so that you would be recognized without uttering a word about your beliefs?

 

I'm not going to go into this subject right now as Jesus's life is in the New Testament.

Probably a wise move on your part.

 

Taking the first churches that were set up by the apostles. There are many letters by the apostle Paul in the New Testament concerning behavior of christians. He continued to preach the joy of giving, of loving our neighbors, of spreading the good news of Jesus. So yes, the first churches were concerned with feelings for joy in Christ. Infact, the churches were set up because of Christ.

You need to read up on the early church. The early church rarely bothers with jesus but is simply concerned with replication of itself. Now, I'm not talking about reading a book. Just read the documents themselves. They're quite the eye opener of what these people really had on their minds.

 

Yes, it would be great if at this point in my life I would give up everything that I owned and become a missionary. However, at the point I am at right now I do not think God is calling me to do so. Maybe one say I will. No matter what happens, I know I will be serving purpose for God. As Piper said, some of us are called to do that, some of us are not. How would these missionaries get funded if nobody had a job, or any belongings? That is why we should give what we can, and in our work take joy that we can glorify God by giving happily.

All xians were called in the Great Commission. However, barring that, the xian lifestyle is one of communism. Acts shows that. Later documents by the church fathers also show that this is the lifestyle that xians would take. They would support themselves by getting recruits and having those recruits "cash out" and distributing the wealth back into the communist church system. Rich, pagan, patrons could also contribute to the church and in exchange for their on-going contributions have access to the resurrection via a proxy type system.

 

Why is it that xians refuse to acknowledge that this is the way the system is supposed to be? Jesus pretty much says it (take just a coat and staff; worry only about today and tomorrow will take care of itself; god will provide and so on) and Acts says it. Paul's supposedly just some poor tent maker that has only what he needs. The communist lifestyle was, and is, the xian lifestyle. You're called to it by opting to be a xian. You don't become a xian and then somewhere down the road decide to sell off everything. All the apostles supposedly left their stuff then and there. That old man and woman were killed off by Peter (god) in Acts because they held back a few dollars of their property sell instead of forking it all over.

 

The reason that xians don't do this anymore is called...rationalizing. I can serve jesus just as well if I have a nice house as opposed to living in a commune. If I have a car as opposed to sharing a donkey. If I x instead of sharing y. And why? Because it's more comfortable. You wanted to show me a xian above? Here's one way. Live the xian lifestyle instead of making excuses. You're living the pagan lifestyle and claiming to be a xian. So all I see is a pagan claiming to be a xian.

 

As for responsibility for the entire household, yes. However we are just as responsible for our household as for all of our neighbors. We should always be there as a witness to them. On one hand, I cannot convert anyone. On the other, I take joy in knowing that God knows who will join Him and when exactly that will be. Even though I cannot bear to think of my father not going to heaven, it is not up to me to decide how it should be. I will continue to work in his life, but ultimately God is in control.

You really should read the words of the early church in order to see what early xianity was like. Read the words yourself and not someone else's interpretation of them.

 

Technically, no one goes to heaven according to the bible, so good news for you I guess. You wish to take part in the resurrection. That just means coming back to life and living on a new earth. This is not heaven as I far as I know. Heaven is where this god is supposed to live and that is why he comes down and makes his kingdom here...where people will live (on a waterless earth).

 

Apparently you can stand the idea of your father going to hell for all eternity otherwise you'd be so full of sorrow you'd be unable to do anything more than cry out to your god to have mercy on his soul.

 

People do more to get people out of prison than they do to appeal to their god to correct the savage perversity that is known as hell.

 

Hopefully I have given some sort of clarity to my earlier statements, I am not trying to start anything.

I never claimed you were trying to start anything. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

 

mwc