Pleasure

[currentchristian]

I'd have to look back, but my memory is that Saul-Paul saw a "bright light" and heard a "voice." I don't recall that he saw any form -- spiritual or physical.

Well, lets call this close enough since there's a couple of different tellings as I recall. But there was no physical presence of jesus. No body. This kind of thing does sound like a seizure, but that aside, does not align with seeing the resurrected body. Just a light/voice...which is more in line with a spiritual encounter. No matter how you slice it you couldn't call it a physical encounter. If this happened to me right now I sure wouldn't. I might describe it as aliens nowadays...a "close encounter."

 

mwc

 

So if the Supernatural appears to you in a blaze of glory (say . . . I don't know . . . a burning bush) and a thunderous voice, you will not yet believe? So what display would be sufficient?

 

BTW, I like your tangents. Don't worry!

 

-CC in MA

[mwc]

There are many, of course, who claim to have had a supernatural contact or experience or encounter. I have not. Well, there's one event that I have had that seemed "odd," and it was "confirmed" by a dream another person had (my mother) and I had. But I won't know if that was supernatural and accurate (i.e., from God) until 2020. I'll let you know in 13 years.

Both my grandfather and mother claim to have had supernatural experiences of the religious persuasion. My grandfather had jesus appear to him and my mother simply heard "heaven" (don't ask me...she says she just knew). I have an unexplained "time" issue in my past that I laughingly say is supernatural (but it ain't...maybe I went through a black hole?).

 

What form would this test take? It would have to be public, live on CNN, and even then there would of course (and rightly so) be many skeptics. I hear Michael Shermer already! (I actually like Shermer, so not dishing him.)

There are already folks out there better qualified than I am that have come up with tests. I don't like the word test but it does fit. It needs to be something that can be, by and large, agreed upon that the phenomenon is not natural nor could be theoretically natural (meaning there are plenty of things on paper that the general public aren't aware of that could appear to be supernatural but are quite natural just not common). The thing is something out of the bible, or some other holy book, is a good place to go for these things since they generally fall into our perception of what supernatural is (usually an act of a god).

 

Of course, there is the prophecy that Jesus will return "on the clouds" and "every eye will see him" (via television, I assume). If this ever happens, would that be accepted as a valid demonstration of supernatural power? It would for me, but then some might suggest this is an encounter with an advanced alien race?

Well, Baal came on the clouds too. It was a sign of power and I believe he did it every year. Do you now believe?

 

However, the television thing is only a very recent interpretation. I could easily say that every could see the event in a supernatural vision or that it is metaphor and that his return will be grand, encircling the earth, and so everyone will see the return. Television might be commonplace but it's far from everywhere. It's still in only 98-99% of American homes and we're the number one owners of televisions.

 

If this jesus were THE jesus then it would be a supernatural event. But can you say jesus isn't an alien? Be honest. We have scientists that are working to create a universe in the lab right now. It will disappear into its own dimension if they succeed but what if they managed something different and created a universe that they could "interfere" with? If they could do pretty much everything the bible states (create a universe, seed it, mess with said life, and offer an after life of some sort) would they not be gods in some manner? I've removed the supernatural but still. Although aliens, even the kind I'm speaking of, would not have the ability to then create a new heaven/earth, remove all water and sustain life by just "being around." Those require the supernatural so far as we know.

 

mwc

[currentchristian]

...

If this jesus were THE jesus then it would be a supernatural event. But can you say jesus isn't an alien? Be honest. We have scientists that are working to create a universe in the lab right now. It will disappear into its own dimension if they succeed but what if they managed something different and created a universe that they could "interfere" with? If they could do pretty much everything the bible states (create a universe, seed it, mess with said life, and offer an after life of some sort) would they not be gods in some manner? I've removed the supernatural but still. Although aliens, even the kind I'm speaking of, would not have the ability to then create a new heaven/earth, remove all water and sustain life by just "being around." Those require the supernatural so far as we know.

 

mwc

 

Jesus could have been an alien. Yes, that's possible. My partner thinks that just might be the case. It's language, in some respect. Alien. Son of God. Anointed One. Language allows room for varying interpretations of the Jesus event.

 

-CC in MA

[mwc]

So if the Supernatural appears to you in a blaze of glory (say . . . I don't know . . . a burning bush) and a thunderous voice, you will not yet believe? So what display would be sufficient?

I, personally, might believe. It depends on what the bush had to say (would it want me to follow the shoe or the gourd?). I might even try to convince others. However, if this experience didn't overwhelm my rational thought and the depression brought about by the ultimate rejection and ridicule of everyone didn't do me in, I would hope to realize that the only supernatural gesture that matters is one that one that is reproducible/testable (I can take others to see/speak with the burning bush) or one that is grand enough for all to see in order for them to make their own judgment.

 

It's really just the same rules that apply to everything else. I understand that one time events do occur, and that's unfortunate, but when it comes to something like this and the time we've given over to searching for it then I would expect that just on random chance alone we'd have something a little more concrete than we do now. It's like the jokes about why do the aliens only seem to abduct the hicks in their pickup trucks as opposed to the astrophysicists? No one of consequence ever seems to get "taken" and the follow up on those who do "go" are usually suspicious. They can be entertaining nonetheless.

 

BTW, I like your tangents. Don't worry!

I'm glad someone does. I find them...unfocused...most of the time. I annoy myself.

 

mwc

[Mythra]

I'd have to look back, but my memory is that Saul-Paul saw a "bright light" and heard a "voice." I don't recall that he saw any form -- spiritual or physical.

 

Here, CC. Perhaps I can help. Here are the three accounts taken from Acts 9, 22, and 26. Of course, it's kind of like playing a game of "where's waldo" to make em all match up:

 

Acts 9

And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

 

Acts 22

And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. And I said, What shall I do, LORD? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

 

Acts 26

At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

[Mythra]

Of course, then we have Galatians - the only place (I think) that Paul actually talks about this. (if the passage is genuine) in which the story isn't quite such an elaborate tale. (And, notice that Paul also went into Arabia - Not immediately into Damascus)

 

But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.

Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days.

[currentchristian]

...

It's like the jokes about why do the aliens only seem to abduct the hicks in their pickup trucks as opposed to the astrophysicists? No one of consequence ever seems to get "taken" and the follow up on those who do "go" are usually suspicious. They can be entertaining nonetheless.

...

 

One would think that if alien beings are able to get here, they would be able to monitor our airwaves and, therefore, would know who the big-wigs are. If they want to let us know they are out there, abducting Stephen Hawking, and healing him at the same time, would be all we need to see.

 

But of course, maybe they don't want a definitive revelation of themselves; so they appear to "hicks in their pickup trucks."

 

-CC in MA

[currentchristian]

...

Acts 9

And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks....

 

Wow. Thanks, Mythra. I have a Bible right here but I was being l a z y about looking up the accounts. I remember now that when I thought every word in the Bible had to be true, true, true ... or else ... I wondered about the differences in these three accounts.

 

I still wonder: What the h-e-double-toothpicks is a prick?

 

-CC in MA

[Mythra]

I still wonder: What the h-e-double-toothpicks is a prick?

 

Well... Aside from the obvious -

 

The "prick" otherwise known as "goad" was a sharp stick or iron spike. It was used to poke the oxen to get them to move.

 

I don't like to overstate the Pagan Borrowing issue, so I'll just say that this saying has a prior precedent in Eurepides' Bacchantes (or Bacchae):

 

DIONYSUS

I would rather do him sacrifice than in a fury kick against the pricks; thou a mortal, he a god.

 

Of course, it is odd that the risen christ was not original in his sayings.

 

I'd say the modern equivalent to this saying would be:

 

"Dude, you're pissing in the wind."

[currentchristian]

I still wonder: What the h-e-double-toothpicks is a prick?

 

Well... Aside from the obvious -

 

The "prick" otherwise known as "goad" was a sharp stick or iron spike. It was used to poke the oxen to get them to move.

 

I don't like to overstate the Pagan Borrowing issue, so I'll just say that this saying has a prior precedent in Eurepides' Bacchantes (or Bacchae):

 

DIONYSUS

I would rather do him sacrifice than in a fury kick against the pricks; thou a mortal, he a god.

 

Of course, it is odd that the risen christ was not original in his sayings.

 

I'd say the modern equivalent to this saying would be:

 

"Dude, you're pissing in the wind."

 

Well, thank you, Mythra. I haven't used the KJV much in years, but when I used to read those passages I always wondered what a prick was and I never got around to looking it up! Now it's all coming together. I just read on one Web site that a prick often had sharp nails embedded and could "prick" the skin of the animal who fought against the guidance. Another example: To prick one's finger with a needle.

 

Now that you have enlightened me on this and coaxed me on, I find that the "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks" to be missing from more authoritative manuscripts and in fact it does not appear in the NAS, NIV, NRS or NAB. So maybe it was lifted from Euripedes! But not by the Risen Christ, but by some scribe along the way! I like your living translation even better than that of the KJV. Cool....

 

Here's a link for you! :clap:

 

-CC in MA

[Kuroikaze]

But of course, maybe they don't want a definitive revelation of themselves; so they appear to "hicks in their pickup trucks."

 

-CC in MA

 

 

I wonder if you have ever read the Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. Douglas Adams theory on this is that these are teenage aliens who stole their dads spaceship for a joyride.

[Mythra]

So maybe it was lifted from Euripedes! But not by the Risen Christ, but by some scribe along the way!

 

A scribal interpolation? Say it ain't so.

 

Actually, I hadn't read that that particular passage was missing from some mss.

 

You're not nearly as fun as a fundythumper to banter with though. Biblical mistakes are pointed out, and you just say, "so?"

 

It's so much funner to tweak the "innerant and without contradiction" crowd. And, I do miss getting told that I'm headed for hell. I find it amusing.

 

We'll find your achiles heel sooner or later, though.