Is God A Sadistic Monster?

[Pegasus_Voyager]

I posted this on "General Theological Issues", but realized I was "preaching to the choir" (excuse the irony). I thought it would make a good debate topic.

 

 

A judge brings a frightened 18 year old girl before his court. The

girl has committed no "crimes" per se, but has committed many of the

same "sins" that an average young woman of her age might have

committed in the course of her short life, i.e. white lies,

masturbation, "mouthing off" to parents and authority figures,

cheating in school, and a host of other petty misdeeds. The judge

tells the girl that she will be allowed no legal representation. No

one will be permitted to speak on her behalf but she herself. The

judge tells this girl that although her "crimes" are minor, she will

be taken out, doused in gasoline, set ablaze, and then thrown into a

vat of sulfuric acid while she is still burning. Then he, the judge,

will stand over this vat and listen to her beg and scream for mercy

until she finally expires in excruciating inconceivable agony.

NOW, this is going to require an inordinate amount of objectivity on

the part of any fundamentalist or evangelical reading this, which, having

been one, I know is probably beyond your capacity. However, in all

honesty, what would society call this judge? righteous? pure?

merciful? PLEASE!! Don't delude yourself! It is a safe bet that

society would probably call him a sadistic beast not worthy to live on

the same planet with decent human beings!

 

Now, this same girl appears before "The Sinner's Judgment" with

the Honorable Judge Jesus Christ presiding! He also tells her that she

will not be allowed legal representation. For no other reason than

because she failed to "pray” the "sinners prayer", this merciless

brute of a God (I use God and Jesus interchangeably because Christians

consider them the same) will throw this terrified young, barely beyond

adolescence (but beyond the scripturally ambiguous "age of

accountability"), girl into the "Lake of Fire", a fate theorized to be approximately

one million times more agonizing than what the Earthly judge subjected

her to.

 

Now, what makes God, Jesus, whomever, any different than this

Earthly judge? How is God different morally? Ultimately, there is no difference, and I have, in fact, "called the Emperor naked". For God

to throw ANY person into eternal fire where they will never die and

never know respite, and scream and wail while God and Jesus treat it

as "music to their ears" is such a morally unconscionable act it

beggars description!! The fact is, God, in my opinion, is a two-faced hypocrite

who employs a "double standard". He claims not to tolerate cruelty and inhumanity, and he will become the most inhumane, vicious, merciless,

animalistic and brutal sadistic monster ever in history when, on Judgment Day, he throws the billions of "lost souls" into this eternal barbecue pit.

 

Now, I would like to confront the most common (and inherently inane and

ludicrous) arguments that Christians use to get God "off the hook" to

keep him from appearing as I have described:

 

ARGUMENT 1:”God doesn’t send anyone to Hell, they send themselves there!”

 

MY RESPONSE: Okay, so you're saying that if a person who dies "in their sins" and stands before God and takes a good hard look at Hell, that he/she has the option to "decline"? Please! Get real! The Bible clearly states that the lost

will be "cast" (the operative word here is "cast", not briskly walked,

not gingerly ran, not eagerly waltzed) into the Lake of Fire! Now,

lest you accuse me of being obtuse, I do understand what you're

endeavoring to say, that being, that if a person "rejects Christ as

their Lord and savior, doesn't repent of their sins,

yadda, yadda, yadda," they have, by default, chosen of their own free

will to go to Hell.

 

The flaw in this "defense" is that it is a twist on the warnings that

Draconian tyrants, emperors, despots and dictators have given their subjects

since time immemorial. That as long as you play the game by their

rules, they won't subject you to unspeakable torture! However, it

doesn't make Hell one degree cooler whether or not God decides or the "sinners"

decide where they spend eternity. It is still a morally unconscionable

Draconian punishment. It's analogous to saying that if a father

decides to allow his child to voluntarily dive into a shark-infested

pool as a self-inflicted punishment for "wrong-doing", then that gets dear

old Dad "off the hook".

 

ARGUMENT 2: "The Lake of Fire was designed and prepared for the Devil and his angels, not people"

 

MY RESPONSE: Okay, but regardless, God intends to throw the lost into it. It

may not "originally" have been meant for people, but God, in his infinite

wisdom and mercy, has decided to take "the more, the merrier"

approach, and use it as the primary method of eternal punishment for

sinners. He has therefore, by default, designed it for both Devils and

people.

 

ARGUMENT 3:”God made a way of escape from Hell through the propitiation of sins provided for by his son, Jesus Christ”

 

MY RESPONSE: In other words, God is saying you either embrace his paradigm, or you suffer a torturous and excruciatingly painful punishment for all eternity. If this isn’t coercion, I don’t know what is! God essentially promises mankind free will, then tells him that the only acceptable lifestyle and belief system on the planet Earth to gain his acceptance and avoid torture is Christianity. In essence, mankind may be technically free to do as he wishes, but God, by default, has put him under duress. If the Christian paradigm is, in fact, true, then free will is a myth. God’s threat of Hell for sinners is ultimately no different than the Spanish Inquisitor’s threat to “heretics’ of being tortured and being burned at the stake if they don’t recant or convert.

 

My challenge to the Evangelical Christian community is this: How is God any different morally from the Earthly judge? Are you going to argue that God created us all, so he can do to us what he pleases? My response to that is that you are presenting the “might makes right” argument. One of my favorite episodes of “Star Trek: The Next Generation” was "The Offspring”. In this episode, Commander Data, the sentient android, created a “child” android in the form of a female, and named her "Lull". Captain Picard reprimanded Data for not informing him of this project. Data responded by asking if he wanted him to deactivate Lull. Picard’s response was along the lines of: “Data, this is a sentient life form! You don’t just shut it off like some appliance!” Could it be that the humanist writer of this Star Trek episode understood the value of sentient life even better than Christians, who believe that eternal damnation in a pit of fire where you will scream in agony and excruciating pain for all eternity is a perfectly morally conscionable, justifiable and just act?

 

 

Copyright©Robert T. Permar, July 22, 2006

[Shawn]

I posted this on "General Theological Issues", but realized I was "preaching to the choir" (excuse the irony). I thought it would make a good debate topic.

 

 

A judge brings a frightened 18 year old girl before his court. The

girl has committed no "crimes" per se, but has committed many of the

same "sins" that an average young woman of her age might have

committed in the course of her short life, i.e. white lies,

masturbation, "mouthing off" to parents and authority figures,

cheating in school, and a host of other petty misdeeds. The judge

tells the girl that she will be allowed no legal representation. No

one will be permitted to speak on her behalf but she herself. The

judge tells this girl that although her "crimes" are minor, she will

be taken out, doused in gasoline, set ablaze, and then thrown into a

vat of sulfuric acid while she is still burning. Then he, the judge,

will stand over this vat and listen to her beg and scream for mercy

until she finally expires in excruciating inconceivable agony.

NOW, this is going to require an inordinate amount of objectivity on

the part of any fundamentalist or evangelical reading this, which, having

been one, I know is probably beyond your capacity. However, in all

honesty, what would society call this judge? righteous? pure?

merciful? PLEASE!! Don't delude yourself! It is a safe bet that

society would probably call him a sadistic beast not worthy to live on

the same planet with decent human beings!

 

Now, this same girl appears before "The Sinner's Judgment" with

the Honorable Judge Jesus Christ presiding! He also tells her that she

will not be allowed legal representation. For no other reason than

because she failed to "pray” the "sinners prayer", this merciless

brute of a God (I use God and Jesus interchangeably because Christians

consider them the same) will throw this terrified young, barely beyond

adolescence (but beyond the scripturally ambiguous "age of

accountability"), girl into the "Lake of Fire", a fate theorized to be approximately

one million times more agonizing than what the Earthly judge subjected

her to.

 

Now, what makes God, Jesus, whomever, any different than this

Earthly judge? How is God different morally? Ultimately, there is no difference, and I have, in fact, "called the Emperor naked". For God

to throw ANY person into eternal fire where they will never die and

never know respite, and scream and wail while God and Jesus treat it

as "music to their ears" is such a morally unconscionable act it

beggars description!! The fact is, God, in my opinion, is a two-faced hypocrite

who employs a "double standard". He claims not to tolerate cruelty and inhumanity, and he will become the most inhumane, vicious, merciless,

animalistic and brutal sadistic monster ever in history when, on Judgment Day, he throws the billions of "lost souls" into this eternal barbecue pit.

 

Now, I would like to confront the most common (and inherently inane and

ludicrous) arguments that Christians use to get God "off the hook" to

keep him from appearing as I have described:

 

ARGUMENT 1:”God doesn’t send anyone to Hell, they send themselves there!”

 

MY RESPONSE: Okay, so you're saying that if a person who dies "in their sins" and stands before God and takes a good hard look at Hell, that he/she has the option to "decline"? Please! Get real! The Bible clearly states that the lost

will be "cast" (the operative word here is "cast", not briskly walked,

not gingerly ran, not eagerly waltzed) into the Lake of Fire! Now,

lest you accuse me of being obtuse, I do understand what you're

endeavoring to say, that being, that if a person "rejects Christ as

their Lord and savior, doesn't repent of their sins,

yadda, yadda, yadda," they have, by default, chosen of their own free

will to go to Hell.

 

The flaw in this "defense" is that it is a twist on the warnings that

Draconian tyrants, emperors, despots and dictators have given their subjects

since time immemorial. That as long as you play the game by their

rules, they won't subject you to unspeakable torture! However, it

doesn't make Hell one degree cooler whether or not God decides or the "sinners"

decide where they spend eternity. It is still a morally unconscionable

Draconian punishment. It's analogous to saying that if a father

decides to allow his child to voluntarily dive into a shark-infested

pool as a self-inflicted punishment for "wrong-doing", then that gets dear

old Dad "off the hook".

 

ARGUMENT 2: "The Lake of Fire was designed and prepared for the Devil and his angels, not people"

 

MY RESPONSE: Okay, but regardless, God intends to throw the lost into it. It

may not "originally" have been meant for people, but God, in his infinite

wisdom and mercy, has decided to take "the more, the merrier"

approach, and use it as the primary method of eternal punishment for

sinners. He has therefore, by default, designed it for both Devils and

people.

 

ARGUMENT 3:”God made a way of escape from Hell through the propitiation of sins provided for by his son, Jesus Christ”

 

MY RESPONSE: In other words, God is saying you either embrace his paradigm, or you suffer a torturous and excruciatingly painful punishment for all eternity. If this isn’t coercion, I don’t know what is! God essentially promises mankind free will, then tells him that the only acceptable lifestyle and belief system on the planet Earth to gain his acceptance and avoid torture is Christianity. In essence, mankind may be technically free to do as he wishes, but God, by default, has put him under duress. If the Christian paradigm is, in fact, true, then free will is a myth. God’s threat of Hell for sinners is ultimately no different than the Spanish Inquisitor’s threat to “heretics’ of being tortured and being burned at the stake if they don’t recant or convert.

 

My challenge to the Evangelical Christian community is this: How is God any different morally from the Earthly judge? Are you going to argue that God created us all, so he can do to us what he pleases? My response to that is that you are presenting the “might makes right” argument. One of my favorite episodes of “Star Trek: The Next Generation” was "The Offspring”. In this episode, Commander Data, the sentient android, created a “child” android in the form of a female, and named her "Lull". Captain Picard reprimanded Data for not informing him of this project. Data responded by asking if he wanted him to deactivate Lull. Picard’s response was along the lines of: “Data, this is a sentient life form! You don’t just shut it off like some appliance!” Could it be that the humanist writer of this Star Trek episode understood the value of sentient life even better than Christians, who believe that eternal damnation in a pit of fire where you will scream in agony and excruciating pain for all eternity is a perfectly morally conscionable, justifiable and just act?

 

 

Copyright©Robert T. Permar, July 22, 2006

 

Yes, I think God is sadistic. If you read the Bible, He loves people to consider His feelings and to love Him. But it is largely one-sided...God gets all the admiration and love, and people get shit if they don't agree with Him 100%. OR they get shit if they don't believe in Him. God is such a hypocrite, He will even use Satan to punish man! I mean, what a fucking asshole! But in God's convoluted mind, this ALL makes sense.

 

Take the story of Job. At the end, God gives Job 'double for his trouble' (my, I sound like a TBN minister!). But did God ever think that Job maybe loved his family that God let Satan murder? Over a stupid bet? Satan: "Hsss...he will surely curse you to your face if you strike his flesh!" Now, this is the same fucker who ruined man in the beginning...and God listens to him! God almost reminds me of an abused lady who keeps going back to her shitty boyfriend for approval. Anyway. The finality of God's attitude towards Job is: "Oh well, I gave Job 2 of everything I took! It's settled in my book, fucker! Now, may the millions of angels praise me!" \o/!!!!!! -YHWH aka bad ass Creator.

 

 

Shawn

[Taphophilia]

I would rather go to hell. Seriously, I would not want to be in Heaven with the people who claim are going there. Spending eternity with them would be, well, hell.

 

How can a disembodied spirit be tortured for all eternity anyway? Think of all the people in hell, Mark Twain, Albert Einstien, Ghandi, Princess Diana, Abraham Lincoln, Richard Dawkins will be there. We'll have margaritas or what ever your pleasure, and hang out for all eternity with all the cool people. Of course, those margaritas, won't be frozen, it is hell after all.

[mwc]

I posted this on "General Theological Issues", but realized I was "preaching to the choir" (excuse the irony). I thought it would make a good debate topic.

And you still are preaching to the choir for the most part...but maybe some xians will stop by (we used to have quite a few when their forums were down but not so many recently).

 

ARGUMENT 1:"God doesn't send anyone to Hell, they send themselves there!"

Just like people send themselves to prison and to skid row. Personal responsibility plays a huge role in everything, of course, but with the concept of the "elect" preached by jesus (and others) exactly what are we to do? Either the "father" has chosen us to receive this gift or he hasn't. I guess we send ourselves to hell depending on which interpretation we choose to follow.

 

ARGUMENT 2: "The Lake of Fire was designed and prepared for the Devil and his angels, not people"

The flaw in the argument and your response is that this god is all knowing. He can't simply design something for one purpose without knowing that it will be used for another pupose as well. So, when the lake was created it was created with the full knowledge that BOTH fallen angels AND non-elect humans would end up there. He created it anyway AND chose which angels and humans would be put within it.

 

ARGUMENT 3:"God made a way of escape from Hell through the propitiation of sins provided for by his son, Jesus Christ"

Again, here we can argue the elect verses free-will. Back, 2000 years ago, people believed in the fates. Their lives were written in stone and not even a god could alter their life path. So they simply went through life and died. Kind of bleak. So along comes this new philosophy that says that if you are a "chosen one" you can live a certain lifestyle and then you will go onto another life after this one. In a way you are in control of your life IF you can force yourself to live by these rules (living righteous, etc.). This is why xianity, as it really is, is confusing to us because it's not really free-will versus predestination but a compromise of sorts.

 

My challenge to the Evangelical Christian community is this: How is God any different morally from the Earthly judge? Are you going to argue that God created us all, so he can do to us what he pleases? My response to that is that you are presenting the "might makes right" argument.

 

Yep, he can do with us as he pleases. We're pawns in his game. He's the potter and we're the clay. He's the <whatever> and we're the <thing that gets crapped on>. But he loves us. Don't forget that. I know when I love something I just crush it into dust because it displeases me simply because I *CAN*. Might does make right. These folks seem to remember sayings like that but forget that "with ultimate power comes ultimate responsibility." Like it or not we're here and if we're loved (and even if we're not) there is an obligation to take care of us. Oh, but that's foolish talk on my part. Who am I to question the potter?

 

mwc

[Zetetic]

This is an extremely well thought out and well stated argument. I've said much the same thing (though you did it a lot better than me) myself many times and it's the primary reason I left Christianity.

 

I've also said that if I stand before god (notice that I refuse to capitalize god!) after I die and it says that I'm condemned to an eternity of torture, I will tell it that it is evil and I will fight it for all eternity even if I don't have a chance in hell of succeeding....actually, I'll say the same thing if it says "Welcome to heaven" but condemns anybody else to hell...well, at least I like to think I'd have the courage to say that

 

BTW: Do you mind if I quote you on my website? (www.godeatspeople.org)? I'll provide a link to here and keep the copyright (you don't want me to post an email address because you would get flooded with spam....even if only one web crawler visits my site).

[NotBlinded]

This is an extremely well thought out and well stated argument. I've said much the same thing (though you did it a lot better than me) myself many times and it's the primary reason I left Christianity.

 

I've also said that if I stand before god (notice that I refuse to capitalize god!) after I die and it says that I'm condemned to an eternity of torture, I will tell it that it is evil and I will fight it for all eternity even if I don't have a chance in hell of succeeding....actually, I'll say the same thing if it says "Welcome to heaven" but condemns anybody else to hell...well, at least I like to think I'd have the courage to say that

 

BTW: Do you mind if I quote you on my website? (www.godeatspeople.org)? I'll provide a link to here and keep the copyright (you don't want me to post an email address because you would get flooded with spam....even if only one web crawler visits my site).

 

Zetetic,

 

I'm pretty sure that PV was banned. It was an ordeal, but you can find the other threads in the Theological Issues forum that he started and read them.

 

Be nice to the mods...be nice to the mods...

 

 

I'm just kidding! The mods here are great but they can only handle so much crap from anybody. They will take alot though before they do anything.

 

He may still just be on time out because his screen name is still active.

[Guest Informant]

First you need to understand what sin is. Sin is breaking God’s law; rebellion against God.

 

1 John 3:4

“Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.”

 

The punishment for a crime is not solely based on what the crime was, but also who the crime was against. The punishment for assaulting the President of the United States, or someone in his family, would be much greater than assaulting an average civilian. How much more worse should the punishment be for assaulting the creator of the universe? Those things you mentioned may seem petty to us because we also do similar, or perhaps even the exact same things, but God never does those things. It is good that you do not identify yourself as more righteous than other people, because we are all sinners, but that in no way justification for what we have done.

 

Jesus is God in human form, the part of God that can relate to what we have been through on Earth. Jesus describes the part of God that loves us so much he was willing to pay the punishment for all our sins, so you cannot use them interchangeably in some cases. He knows there is no way for us to be sinless or for us to pay for our sins without eternal suffering, so he came to Earth and sacrificed himself because he is powerful enough and righteous enough to take the punishment without eternal suffering. Through him we have the opportunity to pay for our sins without eternal suffering, effectively making us sinless.

 

Those who refuse Christ are refusing the opportunity to have their sins payed for without suffering eternally. It doesn’t matter how much he wants to give you eternal life, if you refuse it then it isn’t yours. Those who do not accept Christ will be judged by the Father, the part of God that is righteous and just. Since the people there have not accepted Christ, their sins have not been payed for and they will now have to pay for them on their own, which is by being “thrown into the lake of fire.” Rev 20:15.

 

I think you misunderstand the purpose of the judge. Judges only interpret the laws and decide whether the person is guilty of the crime they are accused of. Sometimes they have to decide on a punishment, but the punishment is within preset parameters. Likewise, at judgement, God will only be deciding whether we are guilty of sin or not, and then give a punishment. To both of those we already know the answer, we are all guilty of sin and the punishment for sin is death. For those who have faith in Christ will find that the punishment for their sin has already been paid for, while those who do not will find themselves paying for their own sin.

 

So in a sense, God does send people to hell, but only by pre-established laws, so there is an aspect of personal responsibility. Though it is impossible for us to be sinless, we have the opportunity to not be punished for them. Christ’s offer is available to everyone, and because of this going to hell is your own decision. You have the choice to get up tomorrow and follow Christ, or you have the choice to get up and not follow Christ, the choice is yours.

Why must sins be punished? Because God is just, which means according to the law; impartial. All sins much be punished, regardless of how small they are, because without punishments then there is no reason for laws to exists, and if only some sins are punished then it isn’t impartial. This is why Jesus came to pay for our sins, because we cannot pay for them ourselves without eternal suffering, but they also couldn’t go unpunished.

 

God didn’t make the laws to order us around, he made them so we could live life to the fullest. The world be infinitely more chaotic now if there as going to be no punishment for sins. Rev 22:12 says “Look, I am coming soon, brining my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds.”. Though I have not done much reading about what heaven and hell will be like, from what I understand people believing in Christ will be rewarded for their good deeds and those not believing in Christ will be punished for their bad deeds. Though I doubt anything else comes close to the effect that accepting Christ has on your fate, there still is the incentive to good and not evil.

 

Why does God make the laws? Part of the reason he makes the laws is because he is the most powerful, but he chooses not to play that card. The reason he makes the laws is because he is the only one capable of being unbiased and the only one who knows all of the consequences each action has. Thus he can decide what things are truly harmful to people, and what actions will cause those harmful things. God is subject to the same laws we are, he just hasn’t broken any of them.

 

Why the harsh punishment? From God's point of view, a perfect and infinite being, sin is detestable. He hates sin and he hates being in the presence of sin. We, on the other hand, are finite and imperfect beings, and are not worthy of being in his presence. Logically, there is no reason for him to love us, but he does because it is his nature. This is why Jesus says “This is my commandment: Love each other in the same way I have loved you. 3 There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends” in John 15:12-13. He’s not saying love others because they deserve it, he’s not even saying love others because he said so, he’s saying love others because he loved you first. He has gone to extreme lengths, even dying a criminal’s death on a cross, to show his love for us, and to not at least acknowledge what he has done is very disrespectful.

[Mythra]

That's a very, very nice sermon. I think I have tear forming in my eye.

 

Did you write that out especially for us? Or was it a cut and paste?

 

You did see that this was ex-christian.net, right?

 

But you're going to come here and try and treat us like we're fourth-grade sunday school.

 

We have escaped your religion. If it works for you, that's very very nice.

 

It used to work for us, too. But we eventually escaped.

 

We feel sorry for you and the narrow little world you live in, Informant.

[Mythra]

P.S.: This:

 

Those who refuse Christ are refusing the opportunity to have their sins payed for without suffering eternally.

 

And This:

 

We, on the other hand, are finite

 

Are outright contradictions.

[Lycorth]

First you need to understand what sin is. Sin is breaking God’s law; rebellion against God.

 

First, you need to understand that, as ex-xians, we already know what your religion teaches. We once believed it ourselves, and many of us used to explain it to others. We don't need refresher courses.

 

Second, you need to understand that you posit something that is impossible. You posit both the existence of evil and a god who is all-knowing, all-good, and all-powerful. Those things cannot co-exist.

 

If God is all-good, he wants only the best for us and cannot abide the existence of evil. Otherwise, he is not all-good.

 

If God is all-powerful, he can to absolutely anything - without exceptions. Otherwise, he isn't all-powerful.

 

If God is all-knowing, there is nothing that is beyond his imagination or understanding. Otherwise, he isn't all-knowing.

 

If your god possesses these attributes, then he'd want only good and no evil to exist, he'd know the dangers of letting evil exist and the lives and souls which would be ruined becasue of it, and he'd have all the power at his disposal to do something about it.

 

But you are trying to tell us that your god will not erase evil and make the world a paradise, but rather offers us an ultimatum - believe in Jebus or suffer forever, despite the fact that your god does nothing to show himself or help us believe.

 

However, it is clear that you offer a religion whose god would make the world a paradise, if he existed as you claim. There would be no need for laws, Hell, punishment, or any of that nonsense. Your god, if he existed as you claimed he does, would not hesitate. He'd protect us from all evil and erase even the memory of it.

 

The fact that he does not proves that he exists not. Period.

 

To insist he does, despite this simple and irrefutable example, is to willingly not face reality and to instead make excuses. I for one have no need of making excuses, and have chosen to face and accept reality - that your god is impossible.

 

I have no need of your tyrant god, who has the impudence to threaten me with eternal damnation for not believing in him, nor of your misanthropic cult, which preaches the wickedness of all humanity unless they believe in your god and encourages violence and hatred in the name of your god.

 

Take your anti-human deathcult elsewhere, for we have no need of it.

[Zetetic]

First you need to understand what sin is. Sin is breaking God’s law; rebellion against God.

 

1 John 3:4

“Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.”

 

The punishment for a crime is not solely based on what the crime was, but also who the crime was against. The punishment for assaulting the President of the United States, or someone in his family, would be much greater than assaulting an average civilian. How much more worse should the punishment be for assaulting the creator of the universe?

 

It's only tyrants and despots who believe the punishment should be greater for the "royalty" than it is for others. In reality, if we assume that the greatest "good" is compassion and empathy, then god should be vastly more tolerant than we are. Are you then saying that the greatest good is "power"? Sounds like a despot to me!

 

 

Jesus is God in human form, the part of God that can relate to what we have been through on Earth. Jesus describes the part of God that loves us so much he was willing to pay the punishment for all our sins

 

Ah yes, one of my favorite arguments: God loves us so much that he's willing to torture us for all eternity so he sent his own son to be tortured and killed in our place. Yes, that's truly a lovely god you've got there!

 

I think you misunderstand the purpose of the judge. Judges only interpret the laws and decide whether the person is guilty of the crime they are accused of. Sometimes they have to decide on a punishment, but the punishment is within preset parameters. Likewise, at judgement, God will only be deciding whether we are guilty of sin or not, and then give a punishment. To both of those we already know the answer, we are all guilty of sin and the punishment for sin is death. For those who have faith in Christ will find that the punishment for their sin has already been paid for, while those who do not will find themselves paying for their own sin.

Sure, I understand. god is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient...he created the entire universe, including hell...but he is so limited that he can't avoid torturing people for all eternity...oh! And BTW, it is a pleasing smell to him!

 

 

So in a sense, God does send people to hell, but only by pre-established laws, so there is an aspect of personal responsibility. Though it is impossible for us to be sinless, we have the opportunity to not be punished for them. Christ’s offer is available to everyone, and because of this going to hell is your own decision. You have the choice to get up tomorrow and follow Christ, or you have the choice to get up and not follow Christ, the choice is yours.

Oh forget it! You apparently didn't even read the OP post because he more than adequately refuted all of your utterly absurd arguments! I'm not going to bother repeating them.

 

 

Why the harsh punishment? From God's point of view, a perfect and infinite being, sin is detestable. He hates sin and he hates being in the presence of sin. We, on the other hand, are finite and imperfect beings, and are not worthy of being in his presence. Logically, there is no reason for him to love us, but he does because it is his nature. This is why Jesus says “This is my commandment: Love each other in the same way I have loved you. 3 There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends” in John 15:12-13. He’s not saying love others because they deserve it, he’s not even saying love others because he said so, he’s saying love others because he loved you first. He has gone to extreme lengths, even dying a criminal’s death on a cross, to show his love for us, and to not at least acknowledge what he has done is very disrespectful.

Disrespectful!? Rubbish! It's horrible that he had to have a sacrifice to satisfy his lust for blood. If Jesus weren't god himself, I might say he was a great guy...but he was god himself! All I can say is thank goddess he never actually existed. I used to make all of these exact same arguments but I managed to escape the brainwashing and see the truth. Your god is despicably evil!

[NotBlinded]

First you need to understand what sin is. Sin is breaking God’s law; rebellion against God.

Actually it means to miss the mark. The rest of your post is based on that one little misunderstanding. You missed the mark. Funny how that happens...

[Dave]

First you need to understand what sin is. Sin is breaking God’s law; rebellion against God.

First you need to understand that since this asinine god does not exist, there can be no sin.

[NotBlinded]

P.S.: This:

 

Those who refuse Christ are refusing the opportunity to have their sins payed for without suffering eternally.

 

And This:

 

We, on the other hand, are finite

Are outright contradictions.

HA!

 

That is the split that a literal interpretation will cause. Mythra, you're amazing.

[Guest Informant]

P.S.: This:

 

Those who refuse Christ are refusing the opportunity to have their sins payed for without suffering eternally.

 

And This:

 

We, on the other hand, are finite

Are outright contradictions.

 

Finite refers to our knowledge and abilites, not the length of our existence.

[Mythra]

Finite refers to our knowledge and abilites, not the length of our existence.

 

Well, now that's a shame. Cause I thought there might be one thing in your post that you were right about.

[Guest Informant]

If God is all-good, he wants only the best for us and cannot abide the existence of evil. Otherwise, he is not all-good.

Evil is not an object that was created, it is an action committed by someone, the result of sin. Because we have free-will, we are able to sin, which is why evil exists. The only way to eliminate evil would be to take away our free-will.

 

If God is all-powerful, he can to absolutely anything - without exceptions. Otherwise, he isn't all-powerful.

If you're referring to contradictory things, like "can God completely fill a 3-gallon bucket with only 2 gallons of water" or “can God make a stone so heavy that he can’t lift it”, then you're just being silly. These are contradictory statements, by definition they are impossible. Statements like the first place impossible limitations on how a certain task can be accomplished, thus making any attempt at the task futile regardless of your power. Statements like the second require the existence of two infinites, and the Bible states that God can only create what is lesser than him.

 

If your god possesses these attributes, then he'd want only good and no evil to exist, he'd know the dangers of letting evil exist and the lives and souls which would be ruined because of it, and he'd have all the power at his disposal to do something about it.

Evil exists in the hearts of man. He’d have to take away free-will to get rid of evil, which would defeat the whole purpose of the universe. We are here to decide whether we want to follow God or not, and to do that you must accept Jesus as your savior. There is nothing else of any real importance on Earth.

 

But you are trying to tell us that your god will not erase evil and make the world a paradise, but rather offers us an ultimatum - believe in Jesus or suffer forever, despite the fact that your god does nothing to show himself or help us believe.

Without Jesus your only option would be to suffer forever. I guess by definition you could call it an ultimatum, but that doesn’t mean it is bad. Yes, we are supposed to serve God or “burn”, but God always gives much, much more than he takes. The only reason you would have to reject God is because you love to sin and hurt others, and you cannot love both God and violence.

 

However, it is clear that you offer a religion whose God would make the world a paradise, if he existed as you claim. There would be no need for laws, Hell, punishment, or any of that nonsense. Your God, if he existed as you claimed he does, would not hesitate. He'd protect us from all evil and erase even the memory of it.

God cannot be in the presence of sin, and if God created us all without the capability to sin then we would have no chance to choose whether we wanted to be without sin. There is nothing here on Earth that has any real importance other than your decision to follow or reject Jesus. That is why he created the Earth, to give us the opportunity to either choose or reject him.

 

To insist he does, despite this simple and irrefutable example, is to willingly not face reality and to instead make excuses. I for one have no need of making excuses, and have chosen to face and accept reality - that your god is impossible.

If God doesn’t exist, then where did mankind come from? Big bang + Evolution? Show me proof of life ever coming from non-living material. There is no logical reason to believe that human life came to be without some kind of higher power. Not at least believing in some kind of God, and that he created everything, is just silly.

 

I have no need of your tyrant god, who has the impudence to threaten me with eternal damnation for not believing in him, nor of your misanthropic cult, which preaches the wickedness of all humanity unless they believe in your god and encourages violence and hatred in the name of your god.

There are some misguided religious groups, but the Bible doesn’t encourage violence. The Old Testament does have a lot of killing it, but that is because there was no history to show God’s true hatred of sin. They were also very evil, as they worshiped idols and sacrificed their children to them, among other things. God told Abraham that he would spare the city of Sodom if there were 5 good people living there, but there weren't even that many. Two angels went and escorted the four members of Lot's family out of the city and it then it was destroyed. There's no evidence to suggest the people that God killed were anything less than very evil, even by our own standards today.

 

After Jesus died the old-law was abolished, and there are only 2 important commandments, love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. The Bible does give some specifics, but all are based upon those two commands. The most “violent” thing Christians are command to do is to lovingly rebuke those who turn from God, and if they refuse to return to God you should no longer socialize with them unless it is to encourage them to return to God. Jesus specially states that you should no longer hate your enemy, and that you should instead pray for them to turn to God. I am unaware of anything a Christian is commanded to do that is more "violent" than that.

[Guest Informant]

It's only tyrants and despots who believe the punishment should be greater for the "royalty" than it is for others. In reality, if we assume that the greatest "good" is compassion and empathy, then god should be vastly more tolerant than we are. Are you then saying that the greatest good is "power"? Sounds like a despot to me!

He is vastly more tolerant than we are. People are so easily angered and so eager to hurt others that harm them, while God is willing to forgive anyone of anything.

 

Ah yes, one of my favorite arguments: God loves us so much that he's willing to torture us for all eternity so he sent his own son to be tortured and killed in our place. Yes, that's truly a lovely god you've got there!

Jesus is the Son of God in a metaphorical sense, not literally. Jesus and God are the same entity, Jesus just describes the part of God that came to Earth as a human.

 

Sure, I understand. God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient...he created the entire universe, including hell...but he is so limited that he can't avoid torturing people for all eternity...oh! And BTW, it is a pleasing smell to him!

The sole purpose of the universe is for people to make a choice about whether to follow God or not. The Bible says that God wishes that all would choose repentance, and that it gives him great happiness to give you eternal life.

 

Oh forget it! You apparently didn't even read the OP post because he more than adequately refuted all of your utterly absurd arguments! I'm not going to bother repeating them.

If you’re interested in some discussion than please explain why you do not want to follow God. The only thing I’ve seen said is that you seem to think God is somehow hateful or hypocritical. The only thing God has commanded us to do is love him, to love others, and to place our faith in Jesus. In return he offers eternal life, and I am unsure how you find this hateful or hypocritical.

 

 

Disrespectful!? Rubbish! It's horrible that he had to have a sacrifice to satisfy his lust for blood. If Jesus weren't god himself, I might say he was a great guy...but he was god himself! All I can say is thank goddess he never actually existed. I used to make all of these exact same arguments but I managed to escape the brainwashing and see the truth. Your god is despicably evil!

It isn’t lust for blood, it is desire for peace. God created you, gave you the ability to make your own choices, and has offered you eternal life. I fail to see how that is evil.

[Lycorth]

Evil is not an object that was created, it is an action committed by someone, the result of sin. Because we have free-will, we are able to sin, which is why evil exists. The only way to eliminate evil would be to take away our free-will.

 

Light is not an object, either, yet it was created.

 

Evil is something that exists because of the devil, in Xian mythology. The fact that your god does not destroy evil tells me he's either not powerful enough to do it or not willing.

 

Either way, that's not a god I care to bother with.

 

If you're referring to contradictory things, like "can God completely fill a 3-gallon bucket with only 2 gallons of water" or “can God make a stone so heavy that he can’t lift it”, then you're just being silly. These are contradictory statements, by definition they are impossible. Statements like the first place impossible limitations on how a certain task can be accomplished, thus making any attempt at the task futile regardless of your power. Statements like the second require the existence of two infinites, and the Bible states that God can only create what is lesser than him.

 

Why are they impossible? If God cannot do them, then God isn't all-powerful. God, being all-powerful, isn't constrained by any limits.

 

I refer to the fact that evil exists yet a god with all the necessary attributes to eradicate evil is posited, which is in itself a contradiction. The fact that evil exists proves your god cannot possibly exist.

 

Clearly, I'm not the silly one, here.

 

Evil exists in the hearts of man. He’d have to take away free-will to get rid of evil, which would defeat the whole purpose of the universe. We are here to decide whether we want to follow God or not, and to do that you must accept Jesus as your savior. There is nothing else of any real importance on Earth.

 

Ugh. I hate when Xians trot out that tired old line.

 

Free will can exist in a world free of evil. Evil is unecessary for free will to exist at all. I can conceive of that - why can't your God? If your god is all-powerful and all-knowing, he could easily make a world in which all beings can be totally free yet there would be no evil to fall into. There's no need to mess around with all this hullabaloo of choosing God or accepting Jebus - God can simply make the world as he wants it to be.

 

The fact that he does not tell me that either he is unable to, or simply doesn't exist. It really boils down to that.

 

Without Jesus your only option would be to suffer forever. I guess by definition you could call it an ultimatum, but that doesn’t mean it is bad. Yes, we are supposed to serve God or “burn”, but God always gives much, much more than he takes. The only reason you would have to reject God is because you love to sin and hurt others, and you cannot love both God and violence.

 

Wow, making a lot of arrogant assumptions here, kiddo.

 

You are an asshole. Here's why: you assume that I want to commit "evil" (ie, sinful) acts and want to hurt others because I willingly reject Jebus. Now, you have no idea of who I am, the help I've given to others, and the help I will give when the need arises, so you are an asshole. Stop being an asshole because your religion encourages you to make bullshit claims about people's motives for rejecting your religion.

 

Now, I don't need Jebus for anything. There is no Hell to burn in, and if there were, your god is also an asshole for threatening me with eternal suffering for simply refusing to worship him. Worshipping any deity does not automatically confer moral aptitude or superiority on anyone. The Crusades, the Witch Trials, and the Inquisitions (for example) prove that.

 

Again, your god has the power, according to your mythology, to erase evil and thus the need to punish anyone. The fact that he doesn't do this - doesn't take responsibility for the universe he made and the evil he has permitted to ruin it - tells me he either doesn't care about evil or isn't as powerful as evil.

 

Or that he simply doesn't exist to begin with. Occam's Razor tells me this.

 

God cannot be in the presence of sin, and if God created us all without the capability to sin then we would have no chance to choose whether we wanted to be without sin. There is nothing here on Earth that has any real importance other than your decision to follow or reject Jesus. That is why he created the Earth, to give us the opportunity to either choose or reject him.

 

First of all, God is supposed to be omnipresent - present in all places without exception. He is therefore present in places where sinful deeds are being done. That is a contradiction - and it proves God does not exist, since if he existed where evil was being done, the evil would be overpowered. But since we can observe evil actions on a regular basis, it tells us God simply isn't there, and therefore doesn't exist.

 

God created the first humans without the ability to recognize evil, according to your mythology. Furthermore, I can conceive of human beings without the ability to do wrong. Therefore, you god can do so, and he ought to make the world so, if he genuinely cares more about us than about which religion we follow.

 

The fact that he does not tells us one thing: he exists not.

 

You're right about one thing - there is importance in the decision to accept Xianity or reject it. And it's important to reject it because it is a foul cult which promotes a variety of sick and fallacious things.

 

If God doesn’t exist, then where did mankind come from? Big bang + Evolution? Show me proof of life ever coming from non-living material. There is no logical reason to believe that human life came to be without some kind of higher power. Not at least believing in some kind of God, and that he created everything, is just silly.

 

Why does the Xian god have to exist in order for anything to have been created? You shut your mind out to all possibilities when you assume that your recently-invented god has to be at the center of everything.

 

Perhaps whatever god or gods made the universe in the beginning of time perished in the process, and there are no gods now, even though there were at one point. Why can't that be true? It certainly is more sensible than assuming your god made the earth in six days, 6000 years ago, when all of science contradicts this.

 

And that also begs the question - where did any gods come from? They too have to have origins. And don't give me the tripe that God existed magically out of time and space, because unless you can demonstrate this, it's just another excuse, made-up to stand in the place of facts.

 

Facts Xians don't want to accept.

 

There are some misguided religious groups, but the Bible doesn’t encourage violence. The Old Testament does have a lot of killing it, but that is because there was no history to show God’s true hatred of sin. They were also very evil, as they worshiped idols and sacrificed their children to them, among other things. God told Abraham that he would spare the city of Sodom if there were 5 good people living there, but there weren't even that many. Two angels went and escorted the four members of Lot's family out of the city and it then it was destroyed. There's no evidence to suggest the people that God killed were anything less than very evil, even by our own standards today.

 

The Babble encourages much violence. Don't lie to me. Here are some examples of violence being encouraged in the Babble:

 

Human Sacrifice

 

Rape

 

Murder

 

Assorted Examples of Cruelty and Violence encouraged in the Babble

 

You also assume that the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah were evil because your god says they were. That's hearsay. There must've been little children and unborn babies there - every city has them. But your god is depicted as having incinerated them all. And for what? Not a single "crime" of the Sodomites is mentioned.

 

And there's no evidence to suggest Sodom or Gomorrah ever existed to begin with. Scholars highly doubt that any such place ever was.

 

You make a good little lapdog for your god, but try thinking for yourself. I did - and it feels much better this way.

 

After Jesus died the old-law was abolished, and there are only 2 important commandments, love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. The Bible does give some specifics, but all are based upon those two commands. The most “violent” thing Christians are command to do is to lovingly rebuke those who turn from God, and if they refuse to return to God you should no longer socialize with them unless it is to encourage them to return to God. Jesus specially states that you should no longer hate your enemy, and that you should instead pray for them to turn to God. I am unaware of anything a Christian is commanded to do that is more "violent" than that.

 

Jebus also said that not one word of the Law would perish, so he didn't destroy the Law at all. Don't cherry-pick verses; granted, it's impossible not to cherry-pick, because the entire Babble contradicts itself, but still - it's fallacious.

 

Nothing in the Babble is based off the "Golden Rule." The Golden Rule, furthermore, is much older than the Abrahamic religions. Educate yourself. Especially the commands in the Torah to murder gays and stone disobedient children - how is that based on a law of love?

 

Please, show me more respect than to hurl such philosophical turds at me. Either do better or do not try at all.

 

Xians are instructed to convert the entire world, or slay those who would not accept Jebus. In Luke 19:27, we read "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." The plain text of the Babble reads just like that - murder all those who do not accept Xianity.

 

Don't try to tell me that that is part of a parable. It is found at the end of a parable and is clearly intended to explain the meaning of the parable. In other words, that verse is meant to be taken literally - and the earliest Xians took it literally, oppressing with violence any and all resistance to Xianity in Europe. Then, at sword-point, they forced Xianity on all Pagan peoples, in full conformity with the Babble.

 

That is history - proven and unarguable. And it dovetails perfectly with Luke 19:27. Your Jebus encourages violence against unbelievers, as proven above. To argue otherwise is to willingly blind oneself to the facts of both Xianity and history.

 

And if Jebus wants us to not hate anyone, perhaps he should set the example - by doing away with damnation and erasing sin and evil. Also, we read in Luke 14:26: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother...he cannot be my disciple." So, what does Jebus want?

 

The clear text of the Babble shows that Jebus in fact wants us to hate - hate everything that is not him. If he intended it to be understood differently, then as an all-powerful god, he should've not permitted the Babble to be translated this way. Either, he meant just that, or the Babble is the work of human minds and God does not exist.

 

Your god is wicked, and your religion is pure evil. I want nothing to do with either, save to participate in their utter and eternal destruction.

 

Informant, I was a Xian for over 27 years. I spent much of that time learning the religion, studying the Babble, and examining apologetic arguments designed to spread the cult. Do you know the Babble half as well?

 

Ironic that Atheists know more about the Babble than Xians do.

[Mythra]

Without Jesus your only option would be to suffer forever.

 

Well, informant, get ready, cause I'm going to shock you. I DON'T HAVE A SOUL.

 

Now, for the really shocking part: you don't either.

 

All the hope in the world in pretend three-headed gods doesn't change the fact.

 

And, I say hope, because that's what it is. If it was belief, christians would be excited to die. And no christian I ever saw was.

[Mythra]

If you’re interested in some discussion than please explain why you do not want to follow God. The only thing I’ve seen said is that you seem to think God is somehow hateful or hypocritical.

 

When we make statements about Yahweh (I have to use his name, because there are so many gods, we have a hard time keeping them straight here) are based on his ugly little portrait, as painted in the bible. We say, "well, if the bible were true, this is the nature of this god"

 

And Yahweh's portrait is quite unbecoming. Oh jesus. Don't even think of getting me started on Achan and HIS LITTLE KIDS again.

 

But, we don't follow Yahweh for the same reason that we don't follow Horus. Or Mithras. Or Allah. Or Dionysus. Or Zeus. Or Astarte. Or Bacchus. Or Gaea. Or Hermes. Or Ishtar. Or Krishna. Or Demeter. Or Minerva. Or Osiris. Or Pan. Pretend friends can lead you into all kinds of nonsense.

 

And, I don't want to join Robin Hood's band of merry men, either. I don't look good in tights.

[Checkmate]

What's all this jabbering about?

 

Of course "God" is not a sadist.

 

"God" is imaginary. How can something that doesn't exist be a sadist? It's the butt-wipes who created "God" and religion who are sadists. And idiots to boot.

 

Why would an all-powerful "God" create us, just to get pissed at "His" creation and destroy us for being exactly what "He" created? "God" creates mankind just so "he" can burn us forever in "hell"? Why? Did "he" never hear of charcoal?

[Taphophilia]

My kids and I used to discuss the Brady Bunch as though they were real. We would ponder questions like:

 

If they don't have a tiolet, how do they go to the bathroom?

 

The dad's an architect, for crying out loud, you'd think he'd be able to build an addition to the house so there wouldn't be three kids to a bedroom and six kids to a bathroom, or at least put a toilet in it.

 

Is it the Laundry Room or Alice's bedroom?

 

Now we understood that "The Brady Bunch" was a fictional TV show, but we still liked to talk about it as though they were real. Here at Ex-C, we like to do the same thing with Christianity.

[NotBlinded]

If you're referring to contradictory things, like "can God completely fill a 3-gallon bucket with only 2 gallons of water" or “can God make a stone so heavy that he can’t lift it”, then you're just being silly. These are contradictory statements, by definition they are impossible. Statements like the first place impossible limitations on how a certain task can be accomplished, thus making any attempt at the task futile regardless of your power. Statements like the second require the existence of two infinites, and the Bible states that God can only create what is lesser than him.

You do realize here that what you are saying is that God IS the laws of nature and logic. I couldn't agree more. We operate within that existence.

 

Why would it require two infinites and how is it that God can create something lesser than itself when all there is comes from God? That is like saying my daughter is somehow lesser than myself because I gave birth to her.

 

Without Jesus your only option would be to suffer forever. I guess by definition you could call it an ultimatum, but that doesn’t mean it is bad. Yes, we are supposed to serve God or “burn”, but God always gives much, much more than he takes. The only reason you would have to reject God is because you love to sin and hurt others, and you cannot love both God and violence.

This line of reason doesn't follow and I'll show you why in a minute.

 

God cannot be in the presence of sin, and if God created us all without the capability to sin then we would have no chance to choose whether we wanted to be without sin. There is nothing here on Earth that has any real importance other than your decision to follow or reject Jesus. That is why he created the Earth, to give us the opportunity to either choose or reject him.

Again, this doesn't follow.

 

If God doesn't exist, then where did mankind come from? Big bang + Evolution? Show me proof of life ever coming from non-living material. There is no logical reason to believe that human life came to be without some kind of higher power. Not at least believing in some kind of God, and that he created everything, is just silly.

This is where I can show you how silly you are being. What you stated above in no way leads to the God of the bible being the creator. You have made an unwarranted jump.

[NotBlinded]

P.S.: This:

 

Those who refuse Christ are refusing the opportunity to have their sins payed for without suffering eternally.

 

And This:

 

We, on the other hand, are finite

Are outright contradictions.

 

Finite refers to our knowledge and abilites, not the length of our existence.

Are you sure you want to say this? If you lose your knowledge and abilities when the body dies, who is it that would suffer for all eternity or who is it that will reside in heaven?