The Will Of Gawd And The Nuttiness Of Xian Mythology

[Lycorth]

^..^

[Artur]

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[Shawn]

It's up to us whether or not we get eternal happiness or eternal suffering, and moreover we have to make the decision on the flimsiest of evidence (custom, fear, naiviety, etc). The most dangerous and risky choice in the universe is up to us, but the choices that will only better our lives or those of our loved ones are somehow not up to us. We can choose to suffer forever, but we can't choose to have a loved one healed or get money to buy food or else starve.

 

Of course, much of this is just the standard Xian attempt to explain the problems of the world, but still, it's just amazing people believed this bullshit for as long as they did

Exactly Varokhar.

 

I got sick of that BS, so I went solo. I had all kinds of cool things happen to me, but then again, I BELIEVED when I prayed. I fasted too, on water only. I still do, but somewhat differently now. I had 'Christians' go...ewww, that's dangerous! Prayer is enough, Shawn!!! I've been a Christian for 15 years and blah blah..." "Jesus wants you to suffer for him!" Uh, isin't that why HE suffered for us? I eventually just left them all. Same garbage, different Church! As I had said, I can't recall any good or happy times with them, maybe once or twice, in 4 years. Seriously. 4 wasted years, I'd been better off just being by myself and keeping to myself. At least I learned effective prayers, but it was on my own.

[mwc]

Here's a quote from the Shepherd of Hermas:

 

 

Ninth Commandment

PRAYER MUST BE MADE TO GOD WITHOUT CEASING AND WITH UNWAVERING CONFIDENCE. He says to me, "Put away doubting from you and do not hesitate to ask of the Lord, saying to yourself, 'How can I ask of the Lord and receive from Him, seeing I have sinned so much against Him?' Do not thus reason with yourself, but with all your heart turn to the Lord and ask of Him without doubting, and you will know the multitude of His tender mercies; that He will never leave you, but fulfil the request of your soul. For He is not like men, who remember evils done against them; but He Himself remembers not evils, and has compassion on His own creature, Cleanse, therefore, your heart from all the vanities of this world, and from the words already mentioned, and ask of the Lord and you will receive all, and in none of your requests will you be denied which you make to the Lord without doubting. But if you doubt in your heart, you will receive none of your requests. For those who doubt regarding God are double-souled, and obtain not one of their requests. But those who are perfect in faith ask everything, trusting in the Lord; and they obtain, because they ask nothing doubting, and not being double-souled. For every double-souled man, even if he repent, will with difficulty be saved. Cleanse your heart, therefore, from all doubt, and put on faith, because it is strong, and trust God that you will obtain from Him all that you ask. And if at any time, after you have asked of the Lord, you are slower in obtaining your request [than you expected], do not doubt because you have not soon obtained the request of your soul; for invariably it is on account of some temptation or some sin of which you are ignorant that you are slower in obtaining your request. Wherefore do not cease to make the request of your soul, and you will obtain it. But if you grow weary and waver in your request, blame yourself, and not Him who does not give to you. Consider this doubting state of mind, for it is wicked and senseless, and turns many away entirely from the faith, even though they be very strong. For this doubting is the daughter of the devil, and acts exceedingly wickedly to the servants of God. Despise, then, doubting, and gain the mastery over it in everything; clothing yourself with faith, which is strong and powerful. For faith promises all things, perfects all things; but doubt having no thorough faith in itself, fails in every work which it undertakes. You see, then," says he, "that, faith is from above--from the Lord --and has great power; but doubt is an earthly spirit, coming from the devil, and has no power. Serve, then, that which has power, namely faith, and keep away from doubt, which has no power, and you will live to God. And all will live to God whose minds have been set on these things." Second Book: Commandments

 

Now, of course, this book isn't canon...but it was nearly so and was extremely popular with early xians. Nearly on par, if not equally so, as the texts we use today and was read along side them.

 

This paragraph provides great insight into how these early xians thought about this very subject. They truly believed that, just like many (most?) of us have argued, that true believing without doubt xians get ALL their prayers answered just like was promised by baby-god himself. Of course this is utter and total bullshit and is probably one of the reasons this book got left out because it proves there are no "true" believers.

 

One of the odd things is that it seems, in a way, it's faith that you will be saved, that saves you. You have to believe without a doubt, and then ask to be saved, that you will get it saved just like asking for anything else. Then you have to keep that faith even though nothing happens. This is kind of the start of that whole doctrine of blaming yourself when god doesn't seem to do anything in your life at all (or when things are bad they're your fault at least).

 

So, you see, you do get some help saving yourself as long as you don't do anything to screw it all up...which you probably will (which is why you didn't get those other things you asked for either ).

 

mwc

[Shawn]

One of the odd things is that it seems, in a way, it's faith that you will be saved, that saves you. You have to believe without a doubt, and then ask to be saved, that you will get it saved just like asking for anything else. Then you have to keep that faith even though nothing happens. This is kind of the start of that whole doctrine of blaming yourself when god doesn't seem to do anything in your life at all (or when things are bad they're your fault at least).

 

So, you see, you do get some help saving yourself as long as you don't do anything to screw it all up...which you probably will (which is why you didn't get those other things you asked for either ).

 

mwc

 

MWC,

 

That was a very interesting read! Thank you!

 

Yes, the whole issue of Christian faith can be very circular. "It's obvious the God of the Bible is GOD, look at the Pacific Ocean!"

 

 

Shawn

[Lycorth]

^..^

[Dave]

Don't Xians realize the stupidity they are preaching?....

Yes, they do. The more stupid something is, the firmer they unquestioningly believe in it.

 

You're problem is is that you are trying to make sense of a religion. They are not supposed to make sense. If they did they'd be reality and not a religion. And you can plainly see; if it makes sense they won't believe it.

[sparkyone]

I am soooo glad to have this forum to come and read and sometimes add a little something. It is like a breath of fresh air, so thanks. But I want to add something to this discussion. I've heard over and over at church that if you aren't faithful in church attendance, prayer, bible study, supporting the pastor, etc. then HOW DARE YOU turn to God or someone at the church when you get into a bind and need some help. After all, if you aren't a sniveling, totally believing, undoubting Christian, than why would God deign to even consider answering your prayers. Then there's the "in his time" you will get the "desires of your heart". It might be 20 years down the road, but if you just stop trying to get something yourself and just trust it to God, lo and behold when you're old and gray and suddenly that wonderful car drops into your lap you remember that you prayed for it decades ago. Thank you, God!? I am so sick and tired of hearing this stuff, but at the same time I actually feel bad that I'm criticizing something the pastor said. I have been a lily-white sheep for so many years that it seems alien to be so blatantly open about my doubts. I can't be that way with anyone around me (except one person) because they would be hurt or scandalized by it. Thanks for letting me rant a little.

 

Sparkyone

[Lycorth]

^..^

[Dave]

Good point, Dave. Damn that brain of mine and its logical thought processes

You know you are not supposed to use that brain!

Reason "...the devil's bride", a "beautiful whore" and "God’s worst enemy." "There is on earth among all dangers," writes Luther, "no more dangerous thing than a richly endowed and adroit reason, especially if she enters into spiritual matters which concern the soul and God. For it is more possible to teach an ass to read than to blind such a reason and lead it right for reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed." According to Luther, "Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees it must put out of sight, and wish to know nothing but the word of God."

Source: Atheism: The Case Against God by George Smith. It's a book that every Atheist should read.

[Lycorth]

^..^

[mwc]

The idea that this god gives you everything you ask for sounded good until people realized it was a lie. Then they needed to change it up to blame the people for not getting what they asked for. It's like Santa Claus. He wants to give you that special gift but you just weren't a good enough little girl or boy this year...maybe next year. Xians hate the comparison to Santa but that's exactly what their god's initial conception was ("Ask and ye shall receive" unless you screw it up).

 

The funny part of this is that getting these "gifts" was the proof the early xians used as evidence of their salvation. If things went their way, by living a "righteous" life, then they knew their god was looking out for them and they were "chosen." Xians today have a similar take on that concept but redemption was a precious, and limited, thing back then. Now you can pray and pray all you like but act like a total ass if you want and still be good to go onto "heaven." The god of 2000 years ago would have probably given up on most of those who call themselves xians today.

 

Obviously if you want to make your religion more appealing you have to make it more accessible. Right now all you have to do is say "I'm sorry" to some invisible man and maybe live a bit differently. Even if you don't all you have to do is say "I'm sorry" from time to time to the same invisible man. You don't even need to bother being baptized much less doing the Lord's Supper according to many sects anymore. With Universalists pretty much everyone is becoming a xian by default so even the "I'm sorry" isn't really required.

 

So how much more can it change from it's origins where you had to make a drastic life change (and take care of orphans and widows as a mandate) to practically being a xian by default at birth?

 

mwc

[Dave]

Good recommendation, Dave. Nothing like looking at Xian history to help highlight the sickness of the cult.

You can still see that history, that quote above, in everything the christians say or do today. It's their motto: don't think, just believe.

[white_raven23]

Here is what life would be like if the world really ran on "God's Will":

 

*Brriiinggg*

*Brrrriiiiiiiiinnnnng*

 

*Click*

 

Bob- "Mmmm.....Hello?"

 

Other End- "You're hired!"

 

Bob- "Huh? Hired? What? It's 3 in the morning. I'm still in high school. I didn't apply for a job."

 

Other End- "Well as I understand it, school isn't exactly going to pan out for you. I woke up this morning knowing I was going to hire you. And if you look, I'll bet there's a blue coverall hanging in your closet that wasn't there yesterday."

 

Bob- "Hold on a sec-."

 

Other End- "Take your time."

 

Bob- "Holy Crap! It's even got my name sewn on!......and......Carlo's Cleeners?"

 

Other End- "That's us! Septic tank service is our business! Terry is going to be by in an hour to pick you up and show you the ropes. Good to have you on board!"

 

*click!*