True Grit Lady

[Legion]

I think you may have gotten on True Grit's bad side. It may have been the ThunderCunt comment.

 

LOL!

 

You remembered! *warm fuzzies*

Oh yes, that one went into my bag of sweet stinging epithets from the scintillatingly hot White_Raven!

 

REally, Atnlerman, if you have read much about forum dynamics it was simply the little attack dog nipping at the heels... I haven't figured out who the "Big Dog" is yet. But I kind of think you are the Kung Fu master.

Actually my Kung Fu is Crazy Monkey Style. Antlerman is okay.

[roman]

I think you may have gotten on True Grit's bad side. It may have been the ThunderCunt comment.

 

LOL!

 

You remembered! *warm fuzzies*

Oh yes, that one went into my bag of sweet stinging epithets from the scintillatingly hot White_Raven!

 

REally, Atnlerman, if you have read much about forum dynamics it was simply the little attack dog nipping at the heels... I haven't figured out who the "Big Dog" is yet. But I kind of think you are the Kung Fu master.

To continue your doggie bit, let me just say that you are barking up the wrong tree. There's no Big Dog here.

[Lycorth]

"Because you claim a higher source gave it to you?"

Well, actually yes. And I do have to abide by law, but if you notice history, people like me stand against things once convinced they are not given authority from that higher source, it is God's Word that trumps everything else...we are stuck with peer vlue unless invested with authority which has to take its rightful place form...somewhere. Admittedly there are horrendous mistakes in this... but what is superior is that the prevailing law of right through the ages is going to come down pretty close to the Ten Commandments for justice, and the teachings of Jesus for the best of humanity's society. Just is.

 

Please. Teachings of Jebus? What, that I should hate my mother and father and even myself if I'm to be worthy of him? Or that all who will not that Jebus should reign over them should be brought before him and slain? Or, back in the OT, when Jebus (as Yahooweh) said we are not to eat shellfish or pork or wear clothes made of blended fibers?

 

There is no moral code taught by Jebus, the Ten Commandments are mostly garbage, and there have been both religious laws and social laws against murder and theft in virtually all civilizations, including those which predates Xianity. The Golden Rule, moreover, also is known to have existed long before Jebus, so even that isn't an exclusively Xian concept.

 

We need nothing but our own moral intuition and our own sense of reason to determine what is good and evil, legal and illegal. That's how we've been doing it for centuries, in every religion we've made and every law we've written, including Xianity - a human invention.

 

"The law does not mean my moral intuition is wrong." I didn't say that, I said you have to bow to the law even if it is contrary to your moral intution and the reason for that is the structure of authority. There is something on a higher plane than your personal moral intuition. And mine....

 

I do not have to bow to the law, unless I cannot evade or withstand the reprisal. Good thing the American Forefathers didn't think as you did, or else we'd still be flying the Union Jack. Also makes me think of those pesky resistance cells in Nazi-occupied Europe...

 

Your own moral intuition is sufficient.

 

"would hesitate"

He doesn't "hesitate, not in your meaning. Even our countries "hesitate" to nuke offensive and tyrannical countries. Snipers "hesitate" to shoot hostages when they want to get the criminal. You see it all around you, this type of "hesitation".

 

Assuming God exists, he not only hesitates but indefinitely delays. I see good folks suffer all the time but evil people get off scot free. Your god is supposed to be all-powerful, so he can accomplish anything therefore - hence he doesn't need to hesitate.

 

"so in a way I am in agreement with the Genesis depiction of your god. "

 

Would you be meaning it is just "people" you have issues with? We could all agree on that one...but oh wait...we're one of those...

 

What in the blue hell are you talking about?

 

"And you wonder why people like me leave your religion..."

yes, still wondering, because what I read here is the "official" version. I don't know what your personal issues are yet. Did you feel bamboozled by Christianity? Lied to?

 

Was it things in the Church or the teaching and things of Jesus, Himself?

You are right... I still wonder, and maybe you will not tell me personally what it is. I am just a face behind a screen out here somewhere. You don't owe me any confessions or information.

 

If you want to read my ex-timony, here it is.

 

From my website In Nomini Lupi

I was born and raised Roman Catholic, and that was a two-edged sword. On one hand, I was brainwashed into the Xian cult from a very young age, which helped the dark seed of Jesus to take a deep root in my soul. I was also raised by a typical Polish-American Catholic family, ie, "cultural Catholics." In other words, they were serious about identifying as Catholics and going through the rituals, but weren't crazy about Bible study and evengelizing.

 

That made it hard to dump Christianity for some years. How could you drop something with which you identified for all your life? Something that wasn't stressful for you to practice (due to the lack of forced evangelization and lack of guilt-tripping and Hellfire sermons)? That made it easy to live as a Catholic, but very hard to let go of it when I encountered new ideas, especially when those new ideas made more sense than the problematic ones I encountered through studying Catholicism's finer points of belief.

 

I decided to study and grow in Catholicism, since I believed it was "right" - all due to how it was presented to me in my youth. And, being a somewhat angry and hateful child to begin with, the various hatreds of Christianity only helped the Jesuscult take stronger root in my soul by feeding all my dislikes. My hatred for homosexuals, nonbelievers, and the like was justified by various precepts in the Old and New Testaments, and much of early Christian history (such as the Crusades, which I've studied for many years, and the Inquisitions and the later Witch Trials) gave me an outlet for my anger, instead of logical reasons to feel otherwise.

 

But many things bothered me. I couldn't "turn the other cheek" as Jesus preached nor could I "love my enemies" nor "resist not evil" or any such nonsense. My father taught me to be strong and independent, and always encouraged me to stand up for myself. I knew the consequences of not doing so - you get beaten down or worse. But here I had Jesus telling me to be a dishrag.

 

My parents, whom I love muchly, aren't in a Jesus-friendly union, according to the Bible. My father was divorced from his first wife, and according to Jesus, my mother is an adulteress and he an adulteror for getting together. That makes me a bastard in the eyes of the Christian god, as well as makes all three of us worthy only of eternal torture in Hell.

 

My brother and sister I never knew, for they passed away before I was born. But, since they never had the chance to "confess the Lord" and believe in Jesus, according to the Bible they are burning in Hell. The Bible makes no excuses; either you willingly agree to believe in Jesus or you burn as his enemy - forever.

 

Jesus also said, many times, that any prayer offered in his name will be answered. Back to my siblings, I am sure my Catholic parents believed in Jesus when my brother and sister were sick and dying, and prayed day and night for their recovery. But I suppose Jesus had better things to do than live up to his promise. And that too is plainly stated in the Bible, and nothing anywhere else in that damned book says that there are any exceptions to the promise of Jesus. You pray in his name, and you get what you want - period.

 

What a bunch of bullshit.

 

Things like this began to chip away at my stubborn faith in Jesus. The plain facts and absurdities of this insane religion began to become clear to me, one by one, bit by bit. Yahweh ordering his armies to rape and murder even the women and children and animals of armies which opposed the Israelites, Yahweh incinerating Sodom and Gomorrah for nothing more than being openly sexual, Yahweh flooding the earth and drowning what must have been thousands to millions of men, women, and children (not to mention animals which supposedly cannot sin and unborn children who supposedly cannot sin, either) all because he didn't like how things were turning out - and so on. I eventually came to realize that I was worshipping a sicko, a demented demon of a god. Satan is only depicted as tempting Eve, annoying Job, and tempting Jesus, but Yahweh commits murder, rape, and ruin - and Yahweh is supposed to be the good one?

 

Spare me.

 

This all caused me to take a hard look at my beliefs. After I broke off a relationship with a fervently (and psychologically abusive neurotic) Christian woman and went about reordering my life and picking up the pieces, my Catholicism finally went under fire. Some years ago I was an Evangelical Protestant and went through the whole bit; I believed everything your standard Evangelical Fundamentalist does and proudly identified as such. So, I already denied Catholicism once in my life. This time, Christianity as a whole went under the question - and failed.

 

I finally stopped making excuses for Christianity. I slowly (and willingly) began to admit the truth, that Christianity was every bit the brutal, ugly cult its critics made it out to be. After having the questions I've had, getting the lack of answers that I did, and being psychologically abused by a former loved one because of differences regarding Christian dogma, I finally kicked Jesus to the curb.

 

Since then, life has been much better, spiritually. I'm free to study what I wish, make of it what I will, and choose my own path. I have achieved true spiritual independence, and have also cast off the fear and terror of Hell and the wrath of Jesus if I should be found wanting in his eyes.

 

The big thing that falsifies Christianity (and all such religions) is this; no god can be all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful and create the world like it is, much less exist to begin with.

 

First of all, it's impossible to have a god like that. This is a world fraught with evil and peril. In regards to Christian teachings, there are many evil spirits which inspire evil deeds in humans. How could a god just permit this to continue, when being all-powerful he has the power to eradicate this "devil" and erase evil itself? How could a god permit this, when being all-knowing, he'd know just how much needless suffering would be caused if he permitted evil and the devil to exist? How could a god permit this when, being all-loving, his desire to see his precious creations safe and sound should override anything else? No father lets his children play with rabid dogs and then punishes his children for getting bitten - he takes responsibility and has the dogs removed and makes his children safe.

 

And secondly, how could an all-loving and all-powerful god create a world in which virtually all its inhabitants have to devour or otherwise destroy each other just to survive? Plants drink water and consume microscopic organisms within the water, animals eat plants and other animals, humans eat both and drink plenty of water on top of it, humans and animals kill insects that annoy them, insects kill humans and animals in self-defense and many of them eat plants - so on and so forth. Why would a god of love create beings which have to consume and/or destroy one another just to survive? Why not just create a world wherein its inhabitants just get along and peacefully co-exist? How can a god be considered all-loving when a world like we have is the supposed result?

 

According to Abrahamic mythology (which is what it is - mythology), "God" does just that. He creates the devil, who rebels against him (how can a perfect god make something imperfect?), and then kicked out of Heaven and sent to Earth (sent down here with us, not just destroyed and done away with - how does that go?), where he tempts us to do evil things, which are punished by "God" for all eternity in Hell. "God" doesn't take responsibility for creating a being who supposedly went haywire and spent thousands of years causing suffering and death and "sin" - he just kicks him out of his own house, sends him down here with us, and gets mad at us for being hurt and fooled by this devil.

 

What an asshole the Abrahamic god is, no?

 

And to top it off, according to Christian mythology, Jesus comes down to Earth to suffer and die a bloody death so "God" can be convinced to offer a way out of eternal torture through believing in Jesus. How does this work? "God" creates a world that goes haywire, then takes the form of a human man and dies to convince himself to pardon those human souls who believe in him and save them from a punishment he himself made for all humanity? What a load of convoluted crap! Doesn't anyone think before they make stuff up?

 

So, those are the reasons I am not Christian - and never will be again. I refuse to believe in a religion that teaches me I am a worthless sinner who deserves to be eternally tortured unless I believe in a certain god and his confusing and illogical dogmas. I refuse to believe in a religion that proposes that I honor a deadbeat dad like Yahweh or submit to the blackmail "believe-in-me-or-suffer-forever" offered by Jesus. Especially a religion that claims its most important figure was a real man who lived on the earth with us - while we have absolutely NO contemporary evidence to support the claim that this god-man ever lived on earth at all.

 

Never again.

 

If Jesus even does exist, since the world doesn't conform to Christian standards, then clearly he is powerless to change anything and make us believe as he wants us to. He isn't worthy of worship, real or not. But since there is no smoke, there can be no fire. There is no proof of Jesus of Nazareth ever having lived, so there can be no Jesus.

 

It feels good to be free.

 

Now, I expect you to not nitpick my ex-timony because you've already said you don't expect to convert me or will try to.

[truegrit]

I was actually hoping for something new, from this person. But it seems to be, no matter how dumb or how smart they may appear to be, with Xians who come here It's The Same Old Shit.

 

And all of them think they're the first ones to say it to you.

 

For the benefit of this Xian who doesn't know me, let me reiterate what most others here already know: I am 64 years old and a former United Methodist Sunday School Superintendent. I am an ex-Christian and an atheist. Does this mean anything at all to you?

 

Ok, it comes down to this, then? All you have left are the ultimate internet insults" oh you are so boring and unoriginal". If you want something new fight some other religious system. We do have a standard of tenets we believe. that is why we get labled,"Christian". Arguing with us won't make it new.

 

It means something to you, and that has some importance. You don't have to read my stuff...there are lots of discussions going on all over the forum:)

 

Maybe if I got into a Lucy Lawless outfit? Nope...I'm 53...you don't want to see that, believe me.

[truegrit]

Forum dynamics have certain patterns; Big Dog is just one... there are many others...

[Legion]

Forum dynamics have certain patterns; Big Dog is just one... there are many others...

True Grit I really don't think that pattern holds here. Yes Antlerman is a respected member, but we're not above razing him either. This place does not seem to me to have any kind of hierarchy.

[Taphophilia]

Forum dynamics have certain patterns; Big Dog is just one... there are many others...

 

This sounds interesting, please explain further.

 

Acutally, White Raven is quite the pussy cat, but with all kitties the claws do come out on occasion.

[truegrit]

"Because you claim a higher source gave it to you?"

Well, actually yes. And I do have to abide by law, but if you notice history, people like me stand against things once convinced they are not given authority from that higher source, it is God's Word that trumps everything else...we are stuck with peer vlue unless invested with authority which has to take its rightful place form...somewhere. Admittedly there are horrendous mistakes in this... but what is superior is that the prevailing law of right through the ages is going to come down pretty close to the Ten Commandments for justice, and the teachings of Jesus for the best of humanity's society. Just is.

 

Please. Teachings of Jebus? What, that I should hate my mother and father and even myself if I'm to be worthy of him? Or that all who will not that Jebus should reign over them should be brought before him and slain? Or, back in the OT, when Jebus (as Yahooweh) said we are not to eat shellfish or pork or wear clothes made of blended fibers?

 

There is no moral code taught by Jebus, the Ten Commandments are mostly garbage, and there have been both religious laws and social laws against murder and theft in virtually all civilizations, including those which predates Xianity. The Golden Rule, moreover, also is known to have existed long before Jebus, so even that isn't an exclusively Xian concept.

 

We need nothing but our own moral intuition and our own sense of reason to determine what is good and evil, legal and illegal. That's how we've been doing it for centuries, in every religion we've made and every law we've written, including Xianity - a human invention.

 

"The law does not mean my moral intuition is wrong." I didn't say that, I said you have to bow to the law even if it is contrary to your moral intution and the reason for that is the structure of authority. There is something on a higher plane than your personal moral intuition. And mine....

 

I do not have to bow to the law, unless I cannot evade or withstand the reprisal. Good thing the American Forefathers didn't think as you did, or else we'd still be flying the Union Jack. Also makes me think of those pesky resistance cells in Nazi-occupied Europe...

 

Your own moral intuition is sufficient.

 

"would hesitate"

He doesn't "hesitate, not in your meaning. Even our countries "hesitate" to nuke offensive and tyrannical countries. Snipers "hesitate" to shoot hostages when they want to get the criminal. You see it all around you, this type of "hesitation".

 

Assuming God exists, he not only hesitates but indefinitely delays. I see good folks suffer all the time but evil people get off scot free. Your god is supposed to be all-powerful, so he can accomplish anything therefore - hence he doesn't need to hesitate.

 

"so in a way I am in agreement with the Genesis depiction of your god. "

 

Would you be meaning it is just "people" you have issues with? We could all agree on that one...but oh wait...we're one of those...

 

What in the blue hell are you talking about?

 

"And you wonder why people like me leave your religion..."

yes, still wondering, because what I read here is the "official" version. I don't know what your personal issues are yet. Did you feel bamboozled by Christianity? Lied to?

 

Was it things in the Church or the teaching and things of Jesus, Himself?

You are right... I still wonder, and maybe you will not tell me personally what it is. I am just a face behind a screen out here somewhere. You don't owe me any confessions or information.

 

If you want to read my ex-timony, here it is.

 

<snipped to shorten post>

 

Now, I expect you to not nitpick my ex-timony because you've already said you don't expect to convert me or will try to.

 

Why nitpick? It is your view, not mine. My dad was Catholic and rejected it at sixteen-he never revealed why even though we had so much religious discussion over the years. His very favorite topic! My mom is Eastern European, but not Polish. Similar type of family culture though.

 

blue hell

?

Never mind.

 

The topic of revolution interests me, but how far is that from the topic started in this thread?mean, we've been all over the place here...

[Taphophilia]

Thanks Madame M!

[roman]

I was actually hoping for something new, from this person. But it seems to be, no matter how dumb or how smart they may appear to be, with Xians who come here It's The Same Old Shit.

 

And all of them think they're the first ones to say it to you.

 

For the benefit of this Xian who doesn't know me, let me reiterate what most others here already know: I am 64 years old and a former United Methodist Sunday School Superintendent. I am an ex-Christian and an atheist. Does this mean anything at all to you?

 

Ok, it comes down to this, then? All you have left are the ultimate internet insults" oh you are so boring and unoriginal". If you want something new fight some other religious system. We do have a standard of tenets we believe. that is why we get labled,"Christian". Arguing with us won't make it new.

 

It means something to you, and that has some importance. You don't have to read my stuff...there are lots of discussions going on all over the forum:)

 

Maybe if I got into a Lucy Lawless outfit? Nope...I'm 53...you don't want to see that, believe me.

I didn't actually say that you are boring and unoriginal. That's your take on it. Actually, most of us expect Xians who stumble into this board to be unoriginal, though not necessarily boring. Don't you get it? We know about your standard of tenets (sic). We are ex-Christians. You are not talking to people who know nothing about your religion, lady...please. What we look for is A NEW APPROACH, which we seldom get.

 

As for your final comments, I find them to be just a little bit crazy. And I don't care if you dress up in a rubber Mickey Mouse suit, actually.

 

Don't you think that with this kind of group you would be better off just being nice, instead of evangelizing? Unless you're saving the posts for some other purpose, which is what I suspect. One thing we do know well is that Xians are a devious, dishonest bunch.

[roman]

PROPS TO VAROKHAR FOR THE BEST POST OF THIS THREAD.

[Lycorth]

Why nitpick? It is your view, not mine.

 

That's the spirit. Live and let live. No Great Commission here.

 

Most Xians, especially the ones who come to places like this, upon seeing my ex-timony would figure me as an easy mark, like a carnie looking for suckers at a fair, and try to swoop in to make the sale. It is good that you're wise enough to not try.

 

The topic of revolution interests me, but how far is that from the topic started in this thread?mean, we've been all over the place here...

 

It does stray, but this is a stupid thread with a stupid topic. However, noting that, I'll make a new thread about it: behold.

[Lycorth]

PROPS TO VAROKHAR FOR THE BEST POST OF THIS THREAD.

 

"I AM THE END OF TIME!"

 

- Valentine Pelka as "Kronos" in episode 13 of Highlander, the Series (fifth season)

[truegrit]

Forum dynamics have certain patterns; Big Dog is just one... there are many others...

True Grit I really don't think that pattern holds here. Yes Antlerman is a respected member, but we're not above razing him either. This place does not seem to me to have any kind of hierarchy.

Everything has hierarchy. But the description of dynamics aren't a good/bad thing as much as understanding how groups tend to operate. It is really an interesting topic, although I lost all my bookmarks on it- before the days of del.i.cious. Actually certain forum groups have certain flavors to them and different goals, etc. Like I said- really interesting stuff.

 

I would have to be here a much longer to try to truly slot people. But it helps when you are answering to understand the style of whom you are dealing with.

[euphgeek]

Well, since my questions seem to have been ignored by truegrit, I am going to post them in a separate thread in the Lion's Den. Perhaps some other Christian will be able to answer them.

[truegrit]

"Don't you think that with this kind of group you would be better off just being nice"

 

Sorry, I don't do "nice" I have issues with "nice". Being real is the best you get from me.

[roman]

"Don't you think that with this kind of group you would be better off just being nice"

 

Sorry, I don't do "nice" I have issues with "nice". Being real is the best you get from me.

I don't think you understand "nice" or "real."

 

Being nice means something other than your shallow take on it. I'm talking about being a witness, about showing others by your actions that you are to be admired and perhaps looked at more closely.

 

Being real, to you, means being arrogant, pushy and belligerant. Well, as my brother used to say, "rave on, cat shit, somebody will cover you up."

[white_raven23]

I think you may have gotten on True Grit's bad side. It may have been the ThunderCunt comment.

 

LOL!

 

You remembered! *warm fuzzies*

Oh yes, that one went into my bag of sweet stinging epithets from the scintillatingly hot White_Raven!

 

REally, Atnlerman, if you have read much about forum dynamics it was simply the little attack dog nipping at the heels... I haven't figured out who the "Big Dog" is yet. But I kind of think you are the Kung Fu master.

 

truegrit, Antlerman is to be highly respected, but as others have pointed out there really isn't a heirarchy here. We don't even kiss Webmaster Dave's ass.

 

"little attack dog"? I LOVE those!! They taste great with a little terriaki sauce! Follow it with a little port and I'll be at your house for dinner.

 

And....as I'm willing to *BET* was part of the true purpose behind Legion's reminder...... as predicted, you had two posts regarding myself to choose from.

 

One containing what I think was a DAMN good question that you would have had to take seriously and either ignore it along with all the other DAMN good questions from various members in this thread.....

 

OR you could respond to the more "emotional" post regarding an insult. A chance to be witty and try to distract everyone from the question I posted!

 

Sure enough Legion, her behavior was entirely predictable! Was anyone else surprised?

[♦ nivek ♦]

So doth quotheth tgl:

 

Everything has hierarchy.

 

Ms. Grit,

 

Ah does declare y'all hit'cher Peter Pinnacle heah att'n exC...

 

kFL

[Japedo]

 

You have given me a little more ammunition in making the case for atheism as religion. It is rather like a crusade for some...and that makes it very much more of a proof that there is a God you all are dealing with.

 

Not all of us are atheists. That being said, Atheism is a Lack of belief, it is an anti-Theist stance it is not a religion, it has zero dogma, zero gods. It's a stance that no god exist until proven otherwise. Faith isn't recognized as evidence. Why do people like yourself insist on labeling it a religion?

 

You say you don't hate me, and you are not angry with me.... I believe you. But then you say: I hate your religion. That is not neutral, you have to hate something.... if it were just religion it has to be part of something...if not me, who holds this religion than maybe it must be the God of the religion.

 

Wrong! We hate the harmful dogma of the cult. We hate how people are treated by those members of said cult. This has nothing to do with the spook invisible leader that doesn't exist. God may or may not exist, however one thing that does without a doubt exist is religion and peoples twisted interpretation.

 

A lot of people hate Christmas, due to stress of not being able to afford it or dealing with family. By your standards they really hate Christmas because they really hate Santa clause, it is the same logic you have just applied to religion.

 

That given all the energy on this site, relates to something of a real objectivity, doesn't it?

 

 

The religion is real,Its harmful to people. Who they follow is a matter of debate. The cult however does effect people, no baring on the gods.

Would everyone waste so much time and effort on...nothing?

 

Dangerous dogma is not 'nothing'.

 

You [collectively and generally] talk about Pink Elephants and Purple Dragons sometimes, but no one takes them seriously, there is no mounted attack against the Purple Dragon cult followers. Maybe because there is no reality to that and you don't waste time with it.

 

You are mixing the two, Again the god(s) itself is a matter of Debate. Religion is as real as you and me, You are mixing the two.

 

What you have given me is more confidence that when Jesus said He would ppl were hot or cold He meant it. It is the neutral that doesn't take God seriously. Those who are cold with hatred at least take Him very seriously. He is real in their way of thinking, or they wouldn't spend so much time on opposing Him.

 

I take it upon myself to debate the cult itself and point out how it was built on lies and pagan beliefs. I follow no god, my anger and hate isn't at a god or ghost or whatever. My anger is at people's willingness to ignore facts, to close their eyes and clog their ears saying bullshit like you've been saying here. You follow a religious dogma that has zero foundation on reality, Yet is extremely harmful to people. You have distorted our views and painting all of us as 'hating god'. You have zero proof that any gods exist, the only proof is your belief. People belive lies everyday. You want people here to take it on 'faith' you're being honest without proof. Christ is a redo- of Sun/Son worship. you have provided Nothing new under the Sun.

[mwc]

I still love God, I love the Son, I love the body of Christ- even though it is frustrating to deal with ( as am I myself). What can I say? I didn't get my truth from someone else... I had my own gen-u-ine experience. That doesn't get easily taken from my consciousness. I am not sure what you think I expect from you either.

My grandfather actually saw a vision of Jesus with his own eyes. How about you? I'd say that's pretty gen-u-ine and yet, I don't believe anymore (and I thought the world of my grandfather...I really think he saw exactly what he said...sadly it was all in his mind).

 

I haven't even prayed for anyone here yet. I am just talking with you. I believe I offer some reasonable arguments in response to yours. You get to think about my take, if you choose to. I am not even offended with you guys

...

You have given me a little more ammunition in making the case for atheism as religion. It is rather like a crusade for some...and that makes it very much more of a proof that there is a God you all are dealing with.

Did you miss my post about this? This site is primarily a place to recover from being in the cult of xianity. There are people who still believe in some "god" who are here. We are not an "atheist" site by any means. We are, by and large, APOSTATE of the xian cult. If you learn this very important piece of information it will make your stay here so much easier for everyone. I know how tempting it can be to use some of these terms interchangably but doing so only complicates matters (normally it doesn't matter but sometimes it can...in this case it matters).

 

As has already been pointed out to you. Opposing your view does not validate it or make it true. If that's the case then your opposition to us validates us and makes our view truthful. Therefore, the xian god does not exist by your opposition to us and insistence that it does exist. That is simply ridiculous. This is specious reasoning at best.

 

I don't know why you expect to be offended by us. Are we supposed to offend you? It can happen. I've offended a number of people that have come through here. Some people have pushed my buttons...you're just not one of them (at least not so far...who knows what tomorrow brings ).

 

Also, don't bother praying for me. If anything, please do a proper blood sacrifice on my behalf. Your god loves the smell of burning meat.

 

You say you don't hate me, and you are not angry with me.... I believe you. But then you say: I hate your religion. That is not neutral, you have to hate something.... if it were just religion it has to be part of something...if not me, who holds this religion than maybe it must be the God of the religion. That given all the energy on this site, relates to something of a real objectivity, doesn't it? Would everyone waste so much time and effort on...nothing? You [collectively and generally] talk about Pink Elephants and Purple Dragons sometimes, but no one takes them seriously, there is no mounted attack against the Purple Dragon cult followers. Maybe because there is no reality to that and you don't waste time with it.

I don't hate you. I don't know you. You're words on a screen to me.

 

Again, this is a recovery site for the most part. If I had been in the Cult of the Purple Dragon for ~30 years you can bet that I would be quite angry at the Purple Dragon (even though it was not real). All those that pushed the Purple Dragon onto others and myself for buying into the whole Purple Dragon line for the bulk of my life. Recovering from a cult is a complicated thing and takes on many forms for many people. It's not a "one size fits all" situation. Nor is it something where you can point to a single item and say "there it is" and simply fix that one thing (perhaps some people can).

 

That is why when someone like yourself comes looking for "the answer" they get befuddled. We almost appear as an oxymoron. We speak of this "god" as if it is real and yet we denounce it as fantasy. It was real and we have learned it is not. Old habits die hard. I will likely speak of this "god" as if it is real for years to come...if not for the rest of my life. That does not mean I believe it IS real. It is not. This is not denial but habit. I will continue to speak of Pluto as a planet even though it is no longer considered a planet. It's just how I learned things. My (great) grandparents spoke a great many racially loaded phrases even though they never acted that way (while I knew them at least). It was just the way they learned to speak. So your accusation is simply made out of ignorance. We do not secretly hold this god is real but simply discuss this god as if it were. Many of us wish to understand why we were "fooled" for so long by something that is so obviously false (one way is looking back over those same passages that held meaning for us as believers with new, open, eyes). In doing so we fall back into our old speaking habit and use the same language that we did while we were believers.

 

What you have given me is more confidence that when Jesus said He would ppl were hot or cold He meant it. It is the neutral that doesn't take God seriously. Those who are cold with hatred at least take Him very seriously. He is real in their way of thinking, or they wouldn't spend so much time on opposing Him.

All cults have fail-safes. Are the Scientologists real because they also have a similar system in place? Was/Is L. Ron Hubbard a prophet because he knew that his new religion would cause strife and division? That people would fall away and he would need to find away to protect those "true believers" from the apostates in his group? If the fact that xianity has these items and Scientology shares these items them both groups must have some truth on this level. Again, your reasoning is specious. Also, to say that one took from the other is pure supposition on your part. Perhaps it is true but the same can be shown on the part of xianity 2000 years ago...only xians will deny it just as Scientoligists will deny any claims their religion "borrowed" from anyone else's.

 

Additionally, not a single word can be attributed to jesus. You have four anonymous writings. If we wish to grant the words to a jesus of Nazareth, even then, most of his words came from elsewhere (one source being the OT).

 

We can talk about something else, but I am convinced it is useless to try to prove God, I'm just not going to do that. If you wish I can explain how I came to that place. Let me know.

Why is it useless to try to prove the xian god? Are you saying that if I were to somehow set up a competition that you wouldn't partake? For example, let's say that I came up with a date and on that date we gathered together the top xian people from all the sects (at least the big ones since there are tens of thousands of sects) from say the Pope (if you're Catholic) to all the Protestant guys to even those televangelists (Benny Hinn or whoever). Now on this day we all get together and they have to "prove" YHWH. Even the Jews can join in. If they can't do it they have to concede their god is a false god. I'll even hold a spot for you. Would you do it? Do you have the faith in yourself and your god that, when put to the test in front of the whole world, he would actually step up to the plate in this competition and perform? Or would you invoke the whole "do not test god" (I'm paraphrasing) cop-out, on his behalf (since the competition could be his idea he put in my mind), and stay home?

 

mwc

[Antlerman]

Forum dynamics have certain patterns; Big Dog is just one... there are many others...

True Grit I really don't think that pattern holds here. Yes Antlerman is a respected member, but we're not above razing him either. This place does not seem to me to have any kind of hierarchy.

Actually I see this community as much more like the Bonobo community as opposed to the Chimpanzee community ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo ). There really isn't a hierarchy. We all have strengths and weakness and have learned to respect those differences and capitalize on each other's strengths. I personally don't view myself above others, but I feel appreciative that others find value in my part of the community here.

 

Now, the Christian community however, I see very much like the Chimpanzee community, with the aggressive males clamoring for power positions while subjugating all of the females to the roles of child rearing, using Bible authority as their justification. In the Bonobo community, we're not hung up on male versus female roles, gays versus straight, etc. We strive for community, mutual respect, and strength based on the value of everyone. We embrace diversity and use it to our advantage, whereas the Christian community is all about authority figures and conformity that fits a particular ruler's little kingdom.

 

BTW, I plan to start a separate thread for us to continue the conversation I was trying to engage you in that seems to be lost in all this. I'll post the link to it in here when I start it.

[Japedo]

You [collectively and generally] talk about Pink Elephants and Purple Dragons sometimes, but no one takes them seriously, there is no mounted attack against the Purple Dragon cult followers. Maybe because there is no reality to that and you don't waste time with it.

 

This really tickled my funny bone! Were you being funny Japedo?

 

Seriously, um, what? You do understand what a spoof is right? Why would we attack our own spoofs? Doesn't make sense. Also, I don't think there is any reality to Islam, but if a Muslim apologist showed up here and started pushing their beliefs, I'm sure they would get the same opposition as their christian counterparts.

 

I didn't type that, True Grit did, My comments are in the red ink. Anyways it was 4 something AM when I replied to that, and it's been a long day... hope this clarifies.

[truegrit]

Forum dynamics have certain patterns; Big Dog is just one... there are many others...

True Grit I really don't think that pattern holds here. Yes Antlerman is a respected member, but we're not above razing him either. This place does not seem to me to have any kind of hierarchy.

Actually I see this community as much more like the Bonobo community as opposed to the Chimpanzee community ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo ). There really isn't a hierarchy. We all have strengths and weakness and have learned to respect those differences and capitalize on each other's strengths. I personally don't view myself above others, but I feel appreciative that others find value in my part of the community here.

 

Now, the Christian community however, I see very much like the Chimpanzee community, with the aggressive males clamoring for power positions while subjugating all of the females to the roles of child rearing, using Bible authority as their justification. In the Bonobo community, we're not hung up on male versus female roles, gays versus straight, etc. We strive for community, mutual respect, and strength based on the value of everyone. We embrace diversity and use it to our advantage, whereas the Christian community is all about authority figures and conformity that fits a particular ruler's little kingdom.

 

BTW, I plan to start a separate thread for us to continue the conversation I was trying to engage you in that seems to be lost in all this. I'll post the link to it in here when I start it.

 

This would be an interesting topic. Not the least reason being that there are lots of misunderstandings about Christianity lumped together with hasty generalizations here. Alert me when you get it posted.

[roman]

...

This would be an interesting topic. Not the least reason being that there are lots of misunderstandings about Christianity lumped together with hasty generalizations here. Alert me when you get it posted.

You actually can't see how arrogant and full of yourself you are; you don't see that you sound like every other Xian who comes here. Why would anyone want to alert you to anything?