Five Questions That Christians Can't Answer

[Ramen666]

laughin in the spirit, gold dust, slain in the spirit, speaking in tongues when used improperly and out of context, basically anything from the "charismatic Christians" out there because they are heretical and absolutely not Biblical.

 

Gah... looks like i'm not 100% proof true then?

 

I've witnessed our youths laughing in the spirit. Gold dust episodes were witnessed to me by my daughter. The slain in the spirit episodes among our church members are especially disturbing to me (at first). How can they fall (faint?) just like that. I've only fallen once myself. And i do speak in tongues (in or out of context i do not know). This gift came to me earlier than my wife who converted one month earlier. But she speaks more often than me now.

 

After reading the charismatic (mainly US) sites, i've come to the conclusion that the Charismatics are viewed with a "favoured" light - tolerated somewhat like JW and Mormons.

 

But speaking in tongues is quite common here (even in some non-charismatic denominations)! But expectedly, RCs consider that as speaking to the devil.

 

 

Gold Dust, spirit, tounges, falling faint.....huh?

 

Whats going on here this sounds like you been smoking something one of those monkey sticks? That sounds really bizzare. I have never heard of that but if your little gold dust episode is like how you say. Can I hava little info like how it was done because something I can't put my finger on it (probably because I am an atheist). I think this is fraud personally but a little explanation of what it actually is would be nice.

 

What exactly is slain in the spirit episodes? This I have seen it on TV before the faint thing and casting the demons out and crap like that.

 

 

What I found on Gold Dust episodes as I post this is:

 

http://www.intotruth.org/tb/gold.html

 

http://www.demonbuster.com/gold.html

[Lycorth]

If it does not edify the body, then it is not of God.

 

Where does the Babble say this?

 

How you test this is this....is there an interpreter? God will not grant the gift of tongues within a congregation without an interpreter. If someone speaks in tongues with no interpreter, then no one can understand it and so it doesn't edify the body. And it certainly won't edify you because you cannot interpret it while speaking it at the same time because you can only speak one thing at a time. He is a God of order.

 

Where does the Babble say this?

 

Everything else you spoke of us not Scriptural. Even the slain in the spirit part - there was never a mediator (someone touching another person) which induced this. People always fell down before God, (speaking of John while at Patmos), or Jesus (just before being taken away to be crucified). There was never a human involved like there is today - that's why I say it is heretical. Gold dust has no Biblical foundation whatsoever, neither does laughing in the spirit.

 

If an entire church is laughing in the spirit, then you're seeing more than that because it never stops there. The Holy Spirit is not abiding in that church but a false sense of the Holy Spirit ie. demons. Yes I said it! If the Holy Spirit is absent, Satan abounds and those people are being lead by Satan while thinking it's the Holy Spirit's manifestation. Sadly they are deceived.

 

Where does the Babble say that?

 

You talk a big talk, but please back it up.

[Guest ExPagan]

Gold Dust, spirit, tounges, falling faint.....huh?

 

Whats going on here this sounds like you been smoking something one of those monkey sticks? That sounds really bizzare. I have never heard of that but if your little gold dust episode is like how you say. Can I hava little info like how it was done because something I can't put my finger on it (probably because I am an atheist). I think this is fraud personally but a little explanation of what it actually is would be nice.

 

What exactly is slain in the spirit episodes? This I have seen it on TV before the faint thing and casting the demons out and crap like that.

 

 

What I found on Gold Dust episodes as I post this is:

 

http://www.intotruth.org/tb/gold.html

 

http://www.demonbuster.com/gold.html

 

You're right 666, it is bizarre!

The link you provided is pretty much the crux of it - it's all about a revival, or so they think, and they think it's the Holy Spirit of God doing it. And you are right also in that it is a fraud. You don't believe in God or Christianty right? and even YOU see that it's a fraud. But there are some Christians who feel otherwise. (not me) Gold dust is found in other religions though, http://nwo-warning.tripod.com/gold-rush.htm

(hope the links works)

[pug]

...that's why I say it is heretical. Gold dust has no Biblical foundation whatsoever, neither does laughing in the spirit.

 

ExPagan, welcome!

 

When you claim all the above manifestations have no Biblical foundation, you are speaking as a Methodist? Roman Catholic? Orthodox? Lutheran?

 

Take a look at this:

 

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/...ons_beliefs.htm

 

Ramen666,

 

Slain in spirit is when a pastor prays for you... he just touches you and you fall like a stone! But you need not worry, a fellow Christian (known as a catcher) will catch you and gently lower you to the ground. Sometimes, you'll just lie there for a few minutes like you're asleep. Then you just wake up and get up. Sometimes, you'll scream and cry or even laugh! Most of them report that it's quite a releasing incident.

 

I too, think it is such a strange phenomenon. So everytime i resist it. Sometimes, an over zealous pastor will try to "push" you down! I've only fallen once - and i just dropped - just like that!

 

Gold dust, i've never experienced. My daughter experienced it once. She told me it's seeing gold dust on her arms. She told me her friend saw showers of gold dust.

[Guest ExPagan]

Varokhar,

 

1 Corin 14:4-5 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[a] but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

 

1 Corin 14:13 13For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says.

 

1 Corin 14:36 26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

[Guest ExPagan]

Pug,

 

 

1 John 4:1 "1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God,..."

 

Without testing anything, then that makes way for all kinds of strange things designed to lead us away from the truth. The Bible is our guide, our means to ensure that we don't get lead astray. Even if it seems to makes sense, if it feels good, or even if good came out of it, we have to remember that Satan masquerades as an angel of light to snare you. You cannot go by your feelings or everyone else around you.

[pug]

Even if it seems to makes sense, if it feels good, or even if good came out of it, we have to remember that Satan masquerades as an angel of light to snare you. You cannot go by your feelings or everyone else around you.

 

Noted, thanks.

[Lycorth]

I see where the Babble includes instructions for interpretors, but it doesn't answer my other problems. Namely, where edification of the self is encouraged (as you implied above), or that "being slain in the spirit" is wrong, or that "laughing in the spirit" indicates that those who laugh are possessed by demonic spirits or under demonic influences.

 

Nor does any of that, or anything else you can cite, explain the biggest problem of why would a god who is supposedly all-knowing and all-powerful and all-loving do things in such an ass-backward fashion instead of just destroying sin and doing away with evil, thus saving everyone from eternal torment (not that I believe in such things, but just for the sake of argument, etc...). The Babble can condone everything you said, and still be one of the most immoral and illogical books ever written.

[Guest ExPagan]

I see where the Babble includes instructions for interpretors, but it doesn't answer my other problems. Namely, where edification of the self is encouraged (as you implied above), or that "being slain in the spirit" is wrong, or that "laughing in the spirit" indicates that those who laugh are possessed by demonic spirits or under demonic influences.

 

Nor does any of that, or anything else you can cite, explain the biggest problem of why would a god who is supposedly all-knowing and all-powerful and all-loving do things in such an ass-backward fashion instead of just destroying sin and doing away with evil, thus saving everyone from eternal torment (not that I believe in such things, but just for the sake of argument, etc...). The Babble can condone everything you said, and still be one of the most immoral and illogical books ever written.

 

I didn't quote anything about laughing in the spirit or being slain in the spirit because it's not Biblical! That's my whole arguement! It is NOT Biblical but some Christians say that they are. So on that point, I'm with you.

 

About God destroying sin, without getting theological on you, God did destroy sin once, He destroyed the earth and the inhabitants during the flood saving only 8 people. (story of Noah) But sin continued didn't it?

[Guest ExPagan]

Varokhar,

 

Also, God did not create or invent sin. He gave man (and angels) the ability to choose. Man failed by not listening to God and sin was born. Lucifer was the most exalted angel in heaven, he grew prideful, sinned, and was cast out of heaven along with 1/3 of the angels. So angels, and man have a free of choice. I think that was very loving on God's part to even make us like that. How else would He know if our love was real if we were forced to love and obey Him? He didn't make robots because if He did, that would be a false sense of love. Would you want to marry someone that couldn't stand you but only did it because she had a gun to her head or because you were rich? No, you would want it to be real. You'd want her to love you for you, not because of any other reason. (I assume you're a man - my apologies if I'm wrong)

[Ramen666]

...that's why I say it is heretical. Gold dust has no Biblical foundation whatsoever, neither does laughing in the spirit.

 

ExPagan, welcome!

 

When you claim all the above manifestations have no Biblical foundation, you are speaking as a Methodist? Roman Catholic? Orthodox? Lutheran?

 

Take a look at this:

 

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/...ons_beliefs.htm

 

Ramen666,

 

Slain in spirit is when a pastor prays for you... he just touches you and you fall like a stone! But you need not worry, a fellow Christian (known as a catcher) will catch you and gently lower you to the ground. Sometimes, you'll just lie there for a few minutes like you're asleep. Then you just wake up and get up. Sometimes, you'll scream and cry or even laugh! Most of them report that it's quite a releasing incident.

 

I too, think it is such a strange phenomenon. So everytime i resist it. Sometimes, an over zealous pastor will try to "push" you down! I've only fallen once - and i just dropped - just like that!

 

Gold dust, i've never experienced. My daughter experienced it once. She told me it's seeing gold dust on her arms. She told me her friend saw showers of gold dust.

 

 

 

Thanks for the info Pug and good link to I been looking for a link like that for a while. You are actually starting to sound more open minded than you used to because you acknowlege others beliefs are out there. That is something MANY Christians lack out there.

 

Anyway ok I have seen that on TV what your talking about. The slain in spirit but I honestly have never heard of gold dust syndrom.

Gold is something that is not even God related, its mentioned in the Bible and I realize that however Gold is actuallyy an element of the Earth.

 

I think I know how the soul fighter thing works also (sorry I guess I examine the evidence and facts and crap like that) It may not be as strange of occurance if we look at how the human mind and body works. You know there is a catcher behind you,am I correct before it takes place. So you have confort and a safe feeling.

 

How I am guessing it works they want you to relax (like I have seen on TV) they put their hands on you and say something and drop....am I correct but you are relaxed and you are also on que as it works.

 

NOW I am actually having a hard time finding a website how it works? I mean mentally however to see if it really works and stuff you need non believers to be tested on it. Doesn't that make since?

 

Does the pastor dude tap you on the forehead before your fall and I need facts since Pug is the only one here that did that because I believe there is scientifically proven reason this happens anyone with info would be nice.

 

 

ANY would be nice

 

 

as for Ex Pagan I think God did invent sin because he is all knowing and all powerful right? Therefore he invented the snake, Adam and Eve and the tree of knowlege and set the conditions for sin. He knows everything therefore he knew the outcome Eve would do. He also knew satan would be the new owner of hell where God sends anyone of not of the True Religion.

[pug]

hey ramen666,

 

This falling thing is just too bizarre! I do not have an explaination.

 

Sometimes the pastor need not even have to touch the person! We'll gather in a group and while he's praying for a person in front, the person or persons behind would fall!

 

If you are a non-believer, and you think they are acting - just look at the way they fall. Most times, like a stone, without warning. They don't just relax and slowly fall. I've seen newly converted Christians fall just like that. It took me like 2 years before i got slain. And that was only once. Never happened again.

 

I do not relax or "prepare" to fall; instead i do the opposite, i would stiffen up and prepare not to fall.

 

As for the crying, screaming episodes, i seriously think those who were affected do not wish that to happen to them as well.

 

BTW i have always been open minded, it's just that you all just love to lump all xtains in one generalised fundy heap! And i guess it just got more heated up.

 

(not forgetting my unforgivable behaviour!)

[Ouroboros]

When I say "true Christian", I'm really saying that I do not adhere to the WOF beliefs (word of faith), I do not believe in manifestations of the Holy Spirit such as pogoing in the spirit, laughin in the spirit, gold dust, slain in the spirit, barking, cackling, yelling, speaking in tongues when used improperly and out of context, binding and loosing, labyrinth walks, contemplative prayer, or giving birth in the spirit, seed faith, making vows, prayer cloths, basically anything from the "charismatic Christians" out there because they are heretical and absolutely not Biblical.

How can you be so sure that you're right about this? Why are those things and beliefs "wrong" but your belief "true"? You're still showing a haughty attitude when you declare to be the bearer of the ultimate knowledge and truth. You say you know for sure that these things are wrong but your ways are right. That is to me an extremely strong indicator of a prideful mind.

 

Let me ask you, do you question these peoples sincerity to devote their entire lives and minds to follow Jesus? Are they “false” Christians because they have a pure heart but a false dogma, or do their dogma somehow express their impure hearts? So they’re false, because they act wrong. Would I be allowed to take the step and say that if you acted wrong in any way to the Bible, then it would make you a false Christian too?

 

By "true Christian" I am saying I follow what the Bible says without all the extra frills that some Christians like to add to make their faith more interesting.

Are you sure they just add it to make their faith more interesting, or that they do it because they want more of God and want to find more ways of expressing their faith? Do you ever pray in public? Jesus said you shouldn’t, so if you do, you’re adding extra frills to your faith, and you’re not a true Christian.

 

 

There are a lot of things I've seen from this site that speak of those other types of Christians I mentioned, of which I don't believe in and it is contrary to what the Bible teaches, so I can see where some people would be confused or get upset. But please don't assume that all Christians are alike because we are not.

I’ve been to many denominations, and yet it was a very few. There are so many kinds of Christians that a lifetime isn’t enough to see them all. I don’t assume all Christians believe the same things, but I do think a majority of Christians live in denial and delusion about what’s real or not. You know there are liberal and open minded Christians on this website that I like and have good dialogues with, so I’m not judging everyone by their colors, but I do judge them by their words and actions.

 

So No, I don't think I'm better than anyone, I don't have any special knowledge of truth, I'm not special and I'm nobody.

I’d say you’re in denial. Your post strongly suggests that you do believe you’re better than other people. You might not realize it, and you might not admit it, but that’s the signal you’re sending.

[Ouroboros]

How religion brings people together so they can be divided. Christians argue with each other, what a beautiful sight. The unity is soooo evident ... *not*.

 

You see ExPagan, you have already started a war with agnostics, atheist and ... (drumroll) fellow Christians.

 

Does that prove to you how well the Holy Spirit is leading its people? Does it prove to you how well written the Bible was by God so no misunderstandings could be made?

[Ouroboros]

I didn't quote anything about laughing in the spirit or being slain in the spirit because it's not Biblical! That's my whole arguement! It is NOT Biblical but some Christians say that they are. So on that point, I'm with you.

Hmm... is going to Church on Sunday's Biblical? Is women speaking in Church Biblical? Does the women in your Church have long or short hair? I'm sure we can find other things that your Chruch or you most likely is doing that is not in the Bible or the Bible speak against.

 

About God destroying sin, without getting theological on you, God did destroy sin once, He destroyed the earth and the inhabitants during the flood saving only 8 people. (story of Noah) But sin continued didn't it?

Yes, so the story goes, and that tells you what a failure the Bible God is, don't you think? God kill thousands of innocent babies, kitties and animals, knowing that sin would come back, so what did he really prove to us or to himself? If he really was God, omnipotent and omniscient, then it should have been a success. Why did he do such an evil act and knowing that it wouldn't change a thing (besides killing a *lot* of people).

[Ouroboros]

This falling thing is just too bizarre! I do not have an explaination.

I think it is mass hypnosis or mass suggestion.

 

In my latter days of evangelical fundamentalism I wanted to see if God's power could overcome me. I had been falling too for years when the pastor put his hands on me during prayer, but I wanted to see if it was me or if it was God, so I decided to fight the "falling". So I did, and the pastor pushed me on the forehead, and I stepped back to counter the push, and no other power pulled me to the floor or made my legs to give out.

 

I realized that most of it comes from your mind wanting to participate in the ritual. It's a monkey-see-monkey-do imitation behavior, where you subconsciously want to belong to the group by acting like the group, and your mind will actively remove energy or power from your legs and make you fall.

 

Sorry to say Pug, but there's no miracle in falling, only biological and natural causes.

 

 

I do not relax or "prepare" to fall; instead i do the opposite, i would stiffen up and prepare not to fall.

I still think your subconscious mind wants to fit in, and it will act accordingly even when your higher consciousness wants to fight it.

[pug]

I still think your subconscious mind wants to fit in, and it will act accordingly even when your higher consciousness wants to fight it.

 

You know, the one time i fell? There was no mass hypnosis - cos there was no group - i was the sole person being prayed for. I fell, i think, because i didn't even think about it - never thought i would. Isn't that curious? I think when i'm in a group, my sub- and higher consciousness will fight it. Or, simply, cos i didn't want to embarrass myself?

[crazy-tiger]

About God destroying sin, without getting theological on you, God did destroy sin once, He destroyed the earth and the inhabitants during the flood saving only 8 people. (story of Noah) But sin continued didn't it?

Yeah, uh... about that...

 

 

Bit of a flawed plan that, what with Noah et al being sons and daughters of Adam and Eve... You know, the ones who managed to commit the original sin that's tainted all of humanity ever since.

 

You know, given that he let some sin survive, I'd say he didn't manage to destroy it at all...

 

 

 

 

 

 

This piece of knowledge was brought to you by the numbers 3, 27 and the phrase "Read the freaking Bible"

[Ouroboros]

You know, the one time i fell? There was no mass hypnosis - cos there was no group - i was the sole person being prayed for. I fell, i think, because i didn't even think about it - never thought i would. Isn't that curious? I think when i'm in a group, my sub- and higher consciousness will fight it. Or, simply, cos i didn't want to embarrass myself?

Huh. Funny. Well, there are always times when unexplainable things happens.

[Japedo]

Varokhar,

 

Also, God did not create or invent sin. He gave man (and angels) the ability to choose. Man failed by not listening to God and sin was born. Lucifer was the most exalted angel in heaven, he grew prideful, sinned, and was cast out of heaven along with 1/3 of the angels. So angels, and man have a free of choice. I think that was very loving on God's part to even make us like that. How else would He know if our love was real if we were forced to love and obey Him? He didn't make robots because if He did, that would be a false sense of love. Would you want to marry someone that couldn't stand you but only did it because she had a gun to her head or because you were rich? No, you would want it to be real. You'd want her to love you for you, not because of any other reason. (I assume you're a man - my apologies if I'm wrong)

 

So by your logic if a robber has a gun to my head and say's money or your life and I give my money, to you this is me exercising 'free will'? You believe then I should be grateful and ass kissing to the robber for only taking my money and 'allowing' to walk away with my life. Hell is just a parable to the gun to the head, and if your god were real, he doesn't believe in freewill as you have painted here. Free will would mean to exercise a choice with out threat of punishment or torture.

[Antlerman]

I'm so used to posting on Christian boards so when I used the word "true", I assumed you guys knew what I meant. Obviously I was wrong...so let me explain. "true" Christian has nothing to do with pride or arrogance or I think I'm better than somebody. It doesn't have anything to do with you guys or any non-Christian. I'm speaking within the Christian camp.

<snip>

 

So No, I don't think I'm better than anyone, I don't have any special knowledge of truth, I'm not special and I'm nobody.

Repectfull EP, you are saying right here above what I suspected you were suggesting:

BTW, I find it interesting that you identify yourself as a “true follower” of Jesus. What does this suggest? That you judge yourself as somehow more sincere than other followers of Jesus?

Does this suggest you think you have the true doctrines and they don’t?

May I offer a suggestion? Maybe you should drop the “true” part of that. It sounds arrogant to others.

In my experience, those who claim the loudest they have the truth, don't.

 

It is a strong indicator to me that someone has a long way to go in gaining knowledge and understanding when they think that the way they read something, especially something like the Bible, is the only way to understand it. When one Christian says other Christians are believing wrong, that they are reading the Bible wrong, they are claiming special knowledge. That attitude is what is in fact arrogant, and naive, and stunted.

 

My favorite saying is, "The more you know, the more you know you don't know."

 

I welcome a discussion of your beliefs, but I would also like to see you be open to other ways of looking at things. I would have no interest in something that already has the answers set in inflexible stone by scribes and priests. Knowledge that is not allowed to move beyond the four walls of a box is not knowledge. It's dogma.

 

BTW, we're you planning to address my points I raised in how you misunderstood what science is?

[Mythra]

I follow what the Bible says without all the extra frills that some Christians like to add to make their faith more interesting.

 

When you say you follow what the bible says- do you really mean that? The whole bible?

 

Do you follow the rules in Leviticus?

 

Are you obedient to God's rituals as described in Numbers?

 

Or, do you just follow Jesus?

 

And, if so, do you follow the Jesus of Matthew Chapter 5, or the Jesus of the gospel of John?

 

Or, do you follow Paul? Or James?

 

You can't possibly follow the entire bible. Or, you'd be utterly schizophrenic.

 

My guess is - you do what every christian does. You focus on the parts of the bible that support your way of thinking. Then, like a ventriloquist you place the bible on your knee and make God speak like Charlie McCarthy. All christians do this.

 

But, the experienced observer can see their lips moving.

[Ramen666]

How religion brings people together so they can be divided. Christians argue with each other, what a beautiful sight. The unity is soooo evident ... *not*.

 

You see ExPagan, you have already started a war with agnostics, atheist and ... (drumroll) fellow Christians.

 

Does that prove to you how well the Holy Spirit is leading its people? Does it prove to you how well written the Bible was by God so no misunderstandings could be made?

 

 

 

Irony at its best, Christians not just starting a war with us but within each other. Heck we will let the Christians tear each other apart while we step back and watch. We don't have to do anything, Christians hate Christians and say they are going to hell on both sides.

 

I am going sit back, eat popcorn and watch ExPagan and Pug say how your religion is the Truth back and forth.

 

Some Gawd huh fellow Ex Christians, Christians can't even be united and they never have been.

[Ouroboros]

Funny thing isn't it?

 

So if I tell ExPagan that I will follow Jesus and become a Christian like Pug, then ExPagan will claim I'm going to Hell.

 

But if I tell Pug that I will follow Jesus and become a Christian like ExPagain, will I got to Hell then too?

 

Damn! This is a perfect example of why a person outside Christianity can see something is wrong! Which side is right? Pascals Wager in double direction, and whichever choice I make the chance is still that I made the wrong choice. It's a Mexican standoff here, or Catch 22. We can't choose, because either choice have the same probability of being wrong.

[Mythra]

I didn't quote anything about laughing in the spirit or being slain in the spirit because it's not Biblical! That's my whole arguement! It is NOT Biblical but some Christians say that they are. So on that point, I'm with you.

 

Let me take another leap into conjecture-land, ex-pagan. You believe you're a true christian because of your personal relationship with Jesus. Which you believe to be totally biblical. And, at the same time, if one doesn't have this personal relationship, then they aren't true christians.

 

Robert Price talks about this in his book "The Reason Driven Life" :

 

No matter what your heartfelt Christian belief, for these people, if you don't invite Jesus into your heart as your Lord and Savior, you are going to hell. Essentially this notion is no different from that of fringe Pentecostals who claim that anyone who fails to speak in tongues is no real Christian and is headed for the Inferno. The fairy tale speaks of the emperor with no clothes, and here we are dealing with the naked King of Kings. How is it that, for all their much-vaunted Bible reading, fundamentalists never seem to recognize that their "personal relationship with the personal savior" rhetoric never occurs in the Bible at all. Jesus never speaks this way in the gospels; nor does Paul in the epistles. The oft-repeated demand for "belief in Christ" certainly carries no implication of an inner dialogue with Jesus. In fact, this kind of sentimental "personal savior" piety is no older than the eithteenth-century Lutheran Pietist movement in Germany, from whence it passed into Methodism. And yet, to born-again Christians, this particular mind game is the be-all and end-all of Christianity. Only after one is safely in the 700 Club of evangelical Christianity will God welcome one's worship.