Five Questions That Christians Can't Answer

[Lycorth]

I do have a concern. I noticed next to my name it first said Curious and now Questioner. I really don't want to be labeled with some of the ones I see on the board like Doubter, Skeptic, Ex-Christian, etc. Can anyone tell me how many posts I have left before I need to move on? Thanks

 

Saying that makes it seem like you're not serious about discussing and more concerned with outward appearances.

 

Why bother even doing this if you're going to punk out in a short while, when you get an eeevil label?

[crazy-tiger]

Curious... kind of an awkward question but, do you worship Satan? I was just wondering because Satan worshipers (and Christians) say that the number '666' belongs to him.

http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/beast616.htm

 

 

That said, it's just a number...

[NotBlinded]

I am just going to be blunt here and say this: What you are in love with is a story. You are in love with the words that paint a mental idol of what God is.

 

If you want to think that I'm in love with a story, that's fine I don't have a problem with that. It's your opinion and I did say that I'm interested in what people thought. I'm confident and content in my relationship with God and I'm not trying to prove anything to you. Thanks for the welcome.

Thanks for your insights into my thoughts.

 

Did you even read the rest of the post? I'll be patient, but only answer if you wish to add some of your own insight please.

[Former Follier]

. . . I'm confident and content in my relationship with God and I'm not trying to prove anything to you. Thanks for the welcome.

Isn't "having a relationship with god" kind of one-sided? I mean, the only real way (sane) people claim they can communicate with him are through prayer and scripture. Both are flawed representations of a relationship. . . prayer is your mental or verbal one-way communication with an entity that isn't proven to even exist without any sort of reciprocation. . . scripture is the self-proclaiming word of god, however, it is the only text that cites it as being such meaning there are no other sources confirming that it is actually divinely inspired. It's quite a stretch to assume that either method constitues any sort of a relationship. I would have better luck forming a relatinship with a daffodil; at least I can see the daffodil, gain tangible pleasure by looking at it (and smelling it if you don't have seasonal allergies and are particularly fond of it's musky smell) and read it's seed packet knowing that it is actually a product of what I'm reading. Is anyone else in here following me on this? No? I guess I'm all alone. . .

 

. . . nobody likes me, everybody hates me. . . guess I'll go out and eat worms. . .

[Former Follier]

I'm sorry I effed the structure of the previous reply up. . . that was my response to Light Follower's quote. I really suck at this HTML thing. Grrr. . .

[Ramen666]

Crazy Tiger thanks for replying for me on that 666 thing. Let me add to that Christians think 666 is the number of the beast and is evil and whatnot. I use the name "Ramen" from Top Ramen in any website and I usally add a number on the end of it so I can remeber it. When I signed up for this site back in August, something for me to remeber easy is 666. It also offends Christians that come (Just like you and others in the past) It doesn't make since to worship satan, I am an atheist. But lets use what you said why not worship God and worship satan. That is just changing the imaginary dude I would worship, I find it silly for changing of religions. For me its you belive in on or believe in none. Kind of bad logic but when you start picking and choosing religions it totally makes religion irrelavent.

 

I see no reason to follow in other man made religions, Christianity just happend to be what I was raised in.

 

 

Finding answers in the most unlikely places, I like that attitude that is what made me question my religion. Just telling you, I was trying to find answers so I looked on the internet for evil things the church has done. Something completly opposite of what I ever believed and that opened up the borders of thinking. If you are trying to find answers I hope you find them.

 

You sound like a moderate Christian here is a website for you to check out:

 

www.evilbible.com look at with an open mind and remember what Christianity has told you. See the other side of the gospel...see it with an open mind...it may be shocking but it is a new path that can be seen. Remember everything your pastor has told you and see if your faith could hold. This website rattled my faith, I admit it still. The day I found it I became angry at myself and at the church. There are many paths you can take look at it with an open look and not think in black and whites.

[Ouroboros]

The way I understood it, God doesn’t actually cause the torture and pain. It’s because the lack of His presence that they exist.

So god is omnipresent but with restrictions to whoever wasn't' delusional enough to believe in an imaginary friend?

 

Omnipresent isn't "omni" if "lack" is part of it.

 

There are everything opposite of who He is. Finally…That made sense to me. Because I couldn’t picture Him saying I love you and at the same time see Him torturing someone; that just didn’t make sense at all. That would be too contradictive.

The "lack" and "omnipresent" is extremely contraditive.

 

Who created Hell? The all loving and all knowing god, or the evil, powerless, devil? And again, if Hell wasn't created, but only the "separation", then again, "omnipresent" doesn't apply.

 

I hope this forum exists because you have questions and want answers.

Not really, at least not all the time.

 

Not because you just want to bash God and Christians.

Actually... that we do like to do... it's a favorite pastime.

 

So, please tell me… what’s the real purpose of this forum?

According to the guidelines for the forum, this is the real purpose: This forum exists for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind. It is not an open challenge to Christians to avenge what they perceive as an offense against their invisible friend.

[xild]

I won't address all your responses to me Light Follower. I was under the impression you weren't following the Bible literally. That is what you said originally when you said you didn't believe in Hell as a place of suffering, or, of fire and brimstone, so to speak.

 

Now you are telling us this is how you feel about the Holy Bible:

 

For me, I don't see contradictions. There are areas that 'appear' that way perhaps to some but I don't make the assumption that they are when I might lack an understanding in that area. I could give you an example but it would take too long to type out. You're welcome to share with me what you find contradictive and I'll try answering you the best I can. If I don't know the answer, I'll be honest and tell you that.

 

So, again, can you explain your take on Hell again, how you come to terms with that Biblicly, and the errors other Christians are making in their interpretation of the Bible on Hell?

[Grandpa Harley]

Thanks for your insights into my thoughts.

 

You card is...... THE QUEEN OF SPADES

 

(Sorry for the noise post, but I wanted to subscribe to this)

[NotBlinded]

Thanks for your insights into my thoughts.

 

You card is...... THE QUEEN OF SPADES

 

(Sorry for the noise post, but I wanted to subscribe to this)

No, no....it's the Queen of Hearts.

 

Sheesh...doesn't anybody understand me?

[Guest Joshuan1]

1) Which one better describes an all-loving God: a.) One that gives human beings one chance only to get it right and if you don't condemns you to an eternal hell, or b.) One that allows you multiple chances to get it right so that you can spend eternity in the best place possible?

 

C. A God who never created an eternal hell to begin with..it is a mistranslation of text and is used out of context. Eternal torture would be just that...torture. It is sick, wrong, seriously F&cked up. The reason why the texts havent been corrected is because it serves the purpose of those who want to rule by fear. Also, the 4 Gospels from the Greek are NOT the original works. Early church fathers testify that at least one of them was first composed in Aramaic and only later in Greek. My personal belief is that like the writings of Paul that the Gospels contain cut and pastes that were written by people later. Take the totally wacked out Gospel of John that presents itself in a completely different way than the other Synoptic gospels.

 

2) People who speak of "hell" associate it with divine punishment, but punishment is usually used as a corrective measure. How do people suffering in an eternal hell learn their lesson? Doesn't that make hell mere torture with absolutely no point to it?

 

I touched on this above. Yes, such would be torture, pointless, cruel and sick. My personal belief is that if a hell did exist that it would merely be the exposure of the individual to the supreme overwhelming brilliance of God's light and person. Thus, instantly the dross would burn and they would be consumed. Contrary to what mainstream Christians teach we are not eternal beings. The GIFT of God is eternal life and it is His will that we do not PERISH or die. When we die we do not go onto an eternity somewhere. That is reserved for those who loved others as recorded in Jesus teachings about seperating the sheep from the wolves.

 

IMPORTANT: There is also a school of thought (that I find very interesting) that puts forth that we (you and I and everyone here) are not really human. That we are actually the exiled ones. The third of heaven that fell. (yup you heard me right) and that we were thrown out of heaven, stripped of our powers and put in this humble placement on earth. This explains why we never hear or see God. We used to see and hear him everyday and yet rebelled ((and actually tried to destroy him)) On this earth God will not show himself to us and although we have a fingerprint of spirituality and giftings it actually insights us to war and pride. This is why the most religious people tend to so often be so intolerant and bent on making war. It is actually a curse. Any attempt we make at spiritual empires fall into corruption and then into ruin. We who did not want to serve God and thought we could do better by ourselves are being given this time on earth to show ourselves that we can't. If this is true then it is the pride of religion that caused our downfall (the pride of Lucifer) and the desire to be LIKE GOD. This would explain why Jesus came as a servant and told us to be. This would explain why his only rebukes were for the arrogant religious people. Why can't we see God? Because we ignored him when we saw him face to face? And now he wants us to seek for him with our hearts? Why are people sick here? Not because God is a God of love. Thats ridiculous, but to show us that our past in heaven was better than our attempt at living here. We may live once or many times, I have no idea but if this theory was correct it would be to let us convince ourselves that we were better off as angels and servants. It explains why we don't take care of this place. Why we don't view it as our home. Why we have this unquenching desire to get off this planet. If this theory is true it would show that all religions are like castles of sand that decay quickly because they are basically man made efforts to name and join with God. Perhaps at our end we are shown who we used to be and then shown who we are now and then are given the opportunity to choose. A supergalactic prodigal son story if you will. Keep in mind that the Bible says that hell was a place prepared for the devil and his angels. WHY would humans go there? Was Jesus giving us a hint as to who we really were? But I have already stated my personal beliefs about hell and it basically meant the utter consumption of all things. And even this is from words that didn't exist for generations after the recorded life of Jesus. I think all religions fail miserably at identifying God. I think He may have intended it to be that way. So that we seek him with our hearts instead of logic or the laziness of being with someone we see everyday and could grow to take advantage of. If this theory is true then the worst people to be around are those who are powermonger religious people because they are dabbling in the very greed that would have put us here on earth in the first place. It explains why Jesus taught to be servants. I didn't mean to preach here. Just wanted to explain that a bit. And like I said, it is just a theory. If it is true and this was our temporary place then it would mean God wasn't keeping us locked in some jail but actually had put us in a type of paradise for us to sort things out and realize our futility. FAR from being a God of torture and pain. But your comments about the absurdity of this God of torture are duly noted. I personally do not believe in much of the evils that are supposedly written in His name.

 

 

 

3) There are thousands of different denominations in Christianity, each thinking they have it right. All other religions think that they have it right, as well. How can you be sure that you have it right, when the odds are that you are actually wrong?

 

We can't. That's why I don't follow the Bible. It is filled with different groups. I try, personally, to follow only after the teachings of Jesus. But I will admit that the record of scripture is not imperfect or without error. Perhaps this is to create faith in the unseen and not blindly making a book an idol. I don't know.

 

 

4) Where in the Bible does Jesus say that people must worship him or pray to him? Doesn't he identify himself as the "Son of Man" who was sent by the Father?

 

As best as I can see Jesus tried to connect people to the Father. His words I am the way are only meaningful when we picture that he is Gods son and he is telling us how to please his father. Keep in mind that everyone was hearing from temple priests, Sadducees and Pharisees. Even today tradition rules over reason. Many Christians make it that Jesus was shutting off everyway but him but I personally believe that he was showing them how to live. That the wide path was the religious path.

 

5) Jesus himself and his disciples seem to believe in reincarnation, as evidenced in Matthew 11:10-15, Matthew 17:10-13 and John 9:1-2. Why is the word of Paul in Hebrews 9:27 taken over Jesus in Christian doctrine?

 

I didn't get that feeling from looking up some of those verses, but if you believe that then I don't have a problem with it. Lots of people experience feelings that they have lived before and honestly, there are portions of the Bible that could be looked at that way.

[Guest Joshuan1]

Mind the typos. (Its late)

 

In a nutshell, my belief is that we are put on this planet to be good humans. To live, laugh, be merry, to love, to cherish, to grow. Adam and Eve's sin (if you believe such a tale) came as a result because they wanted to be LIKE GOD. That was the start of it all. I personally find the tale to be full of holes and wanting for more depth. It is terribly irrational, overly simplistic and no matter how you look at it sets up God as the ultimate prick who doesn't protect his children and allows a predator free reign of the garden. (I think not)

 

I think that is the problem with Christianity and its overbalanced emphasis on holiness and being what they think is Godlike. I personally believe God doesn't welcome posers or kiss-ups and would much rather we just be good humans for our time here on this place.

[Jun]

That's why I don't follow the Bible.........I try, personally, to follow only after the teachings of Jesus.

 

Where does one find these "teachings of Jesus" if not in the bible, in any of it's forms?

 

When we die we do not go onto an eternity somewhere. That is reserved for those who loved others as recorded in Jesus teachings about seperating the sheep from the wolves.

 

And you know this how? Have you been there or met someone who has?

 

I think all religions fail miserably at identifying God.

 

That would be because "god" is a human construct, a figment of the imagination, a delusion.

 

I personally believe God doesn't welcome posers or kiss-ups and would much rather we just be good humans for our time here on this place.

 

May I ask, which "God" is it you believe in? It appears you believe in the Christian "God," but you discount the very text of the religion that invented him!

[Guest Joshuan1]

That's why I don't follow the Bible.........I try, personally, to follow only after the teachings of Jesus.

 

Where does one find these "teachings of Jesus" if not in the bible, in any of it's forms?

 

The Bible is a historical record. It is not the fountain of truth. Earth existed before any books were written to describe it. Earth did not come into being because it was described in a book. We all have moral laws written on our hearts without any codes being taught.

 

When we die we do not go onto an eternity somewhere. That is reserved for those who loved others as recorded in Jesus teachings about seperating the sheep from the wolves.

 

And you know this how? Have you been there or met someone who has?

 

Did I say I did? And no where was it stated in the questions that proof of such a place was a necessity. You cannot prove they do not exist. We are in the same boat.

 

I think all religions fail miserably at identifying God.

 

That would be because "god" is a human construct, a figment of the imagination, a delusion.

 

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Again, the questions asked for reasons from Christians why. If that is going to be the reply then we have already reached a dead end. I gave the answers. You can call it a delusion. I can call it otherwise. You are making a smacking statement when I willingly have opened up to dialogue about this. You have every right to not believe and I have every right to believe. But let's not slam the door shut on each other so quickly.

 

I personally believe God doesn't welcome posers or kiss-ups and would much rather we just be good humans for our time here on this place.

 

May I ask, which "God" is it you believe in? It appears you believe in the Christian "God," but you discount the very text of the religion that invented him!

 

God was not invented by any text. Just as the universe did not come into being simply because I woke up and could see the moon and stars. Twice now you are saying he is invented. Thats fine. Its your opinion. You cant prove it however, just like I cannot prove he exists. We are both in the same boat. And besides, God says in the very text that the pen of the scribes has made it into lies and Moses even lamented that he knew after he died that men were going to write words claiming they were from him and God. I can believe in avatars or types. I can believe in the supernatural crown of nature. Are you only going to be satisfied if I represent a completely athiestic belief? Then change the name of the site to Athiests.com. I know of people here who believe in other gods than the one spoken of in the Bible. Are they wrong too? And just because you say so?

[Guest Joshuan1]

And in answer to the comment about Jesus and his teachings..........

 

Jesus himself countered the wisdom and teachings of the religious elite, even quoting their laws saying.....You have heard this....But I tell you this......He even announced new commandments. You WONT find these in the Old Testament. The blood temple cult was teaching a lie. God himself declares that he never asked for or delighted in the sacrifice of animals. He said it was abominous and loathsome. David, Isaiah, Jeremiah also mentioned this. The temple was writing lies in Gods name. The same way people like Robertson and Falwell have been doing blaming gays and liberals for everything. The religious leaders weren't called places of the dead, and broods of vipers because they were right and spoke for God. So why would I follow their text?

[Jun]

God was not invented by any text.

 

 

God says in the very text that.......

 

You have made it clear that you don't believe the words of the bible, yet you use quotes from the bible to make your point?!

 

Are you only going to be satisfied if I represent a completely athiestic belief?

 

You can believe in anything you like. As you said there are those on this board who do believe in otherworldy beings, supernatural powers/occurances etc. But I thought your posts were about the "God" of the bible? This board is about Christianity (and the other Abrahamic cults connected to it), the discussion is about the bible, and questions that Christians can't answer. Your post appears to show that you have answers that you have arrived at through knowing the true words of "God' or Jesus. How did you come by these answers if the bible is wrong?

 

I don't recall saying you are either wrong or right about anything. I simply inquired about the comments you made in your post.

 

1. Where does one find these "teachings of Jesus" if not in the bible, in any of it's forms?

2. And you know this how? Have you been there or met someone who has? - in reference to your comment about where one goes after death.

3. Which "God" do you believe in? It appears you believe in the Christian "God," but you discount the very text of the religion that invented him!

 

I made the statement that - "God" is a human construct, a figment of the imagination, a delusion. So?

 

Is "God" for you a supernatural entity, an omnipotent being, an energy that permeats all life, a universal knowledge....? I am asking so that I may see where you are coming from as you seem to be contradicting yourself.

 

God himself declares that he never asked for or delighted in the sacrifice of animals. He said it was abominous and loathsome.

 

Pardon? Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy - Genesis 4. Sounds like "God" was all for animal sacrifice to me.

 

The temple was writing lies in Gods name.

 

And you can tell us which are the lies and which aren't then?

 

The same way people like Robertson and Falwell have been doing blaming gays and liberals for everything.

 

Sorry I'm not an American, so I have no idea who these people are.

 

So why would I follow their text?

 

Again, so which "God" are you batting for?

[Guest Joshuan1]

God was not invented by any text.

 

 

 

Why the rolled eyes? Because I claim that God was not created by the Bible? Again, a different opinion.

 

God says in the very text that.......

 

You have made it clear that you don't believe the words of the bible, yet you use quotes from the bible to make your point?!

 

And you don't believe in God yet you spend time talking about him here? Isn't that a waste of valuable athiest time?

 

Are you only going to be satisfied if I represent a completely athiestic belief?

 

You can believe in anything you like. As you said there are those on this board who do believe in otherworldy beings, supernatural powers/occurances etc. But I thought your posts were about the "God" of the bible? This board is about Christianity (and the other Abrahamic cults connected to it), the discussion is about the bible, and questions that Christians can't answer. Your post appears to show that you have answers that you have arrived at through knowing the true words of "God' or Jesus. How did you come by these answers if the bible is wrong?

 

I don't recall saying you are either wrong or right about anything. I simply inquired about the comments you made in your post.

 

You said that God was basically from my imagination. That means He does not exist and that I am wrong. You even said He was a delusion or basically a deception. That's your right to believe that. And mine to disagree. And Druids, Wiccans, witches will not be able to prove the elders, the ancestors, the many Gods, Norse Gods or the Lord and the Lady. It doesn't mean they don't exist. It simply means that there is no real proof other than what one feels in their souls. And to some that will be quite thin reasoning. Therefore I respect each persons right to walk their own path.

 

1. Where does one find these "teachings of Jesus" if not in the bible, in any of it's forms?

2. And you know this how? Have you been there or met someone who has? - in reference to your comment about where one goes after death.

3. Which "God" do you believe in? It appears you believe in the Christian "God," but you discount the very text of the religion that invented him!

 

I made the statement that - "God" is a human construct, a figment of the imagination, a delusion. So?

 

Is "God" for you a supernatural entity, an omnipotent being, an energy that permeats all life, a universal knowledge....? I am asking so that I may see where you are coming from as you seem to be contradicting yourself.

 

I am not contradicting myself at all. You appear to want to put God in a box. He cant be. He is energy, and nature. He is intelligence. He is emotion. He is the forces of nature and the void. He is he and he is She. I don't think as humans that we can fully comprehend Deity or God. So, there is no way to really answer you there. I do not find absolute truth in the Bible, yet I do express a fondness for Jesus, but to me the story is sketchy. Its our rights to believe as we feel led to. I am more of a belief that Gods presence can be an energy, and a universal knowledge. I can also believe that such came into the form of a man for a limited time. The thread was about answering the questions and I did. I respect your path as you walk it. If this thread is really only for TRUE BIBLE BELIEVING THUMPING types then I will politely bow out as I admittedly do not believe in many of the things that they do. And I don't think you need a text for a God. Some ancient indians believe they were ministered to by someone who they described as being a Jesus figure way before Christians brought the Bible or any Christian teachings to them. This proves nothing except that experience with God does not require books. In the same way that witches have practiced their art for many generations without abiding texts.

 

I believe that Deity or God respects what we call Him/Her/Them. I have no proof of it. So, to some it could be ENERGY, to Druids Nature could be God and Goddess. I think these are shells we use to express a personality on a Deity that has never seen fit to effectively reveal its mysteries to us. For me, however, the beliefs of Jesus, with observation and study appear to work for me, but I respect that others will worship the mysteries of the universe as God. Or not at all. For me the belief that Jesus came to show how to live works. But I would not consider it necessary for others to believe that. Nor is it in my belief to believe that those who did not believe would be damned for such. I believe we each know full well how to live without any religion teaching us. But I see nothing wrong with having religions beliefs and have stated mine. Just like you are stating your beliefs. Again, if you are looking for just "real" Christian to interview about hell and by real I mean the usual Fundie then I am not going to be it. But I answered those questions because I felt I could. But I am not trying to win a game here.

[Guest Joshuan1]

1. Where does one find these "teachings of Jesus" if not in the bible, in any of it's forms?

 

We could look at the conscience of man and how it separates us from the animal kingdom. Our inner moral structure that tells us that murder is wrong everywhere. And why would we need to remove the teachings of Jesus from the Bible for them to be valid or applicable? I never said I did NOT believe in the entire Bible. It is just not an inerrant book.

[Jun]

You appear to want to put God in a box.

 

Er, no. "God" belongs in the fiction section.

 

He is energy, and nature. He is intelligence. He is emotion. He is the forces of nature and the void. He is he and he is She. I don't think as humans that we can fully comprehend Deity or God.

 

I am more of a belief that Gods presence can be an energy, and a universal knowledge.

 

So who was Jesus, if he ever existed. Was he the son of "God?" A prophet? A religious leader?

 

And I don't think you need a text for a God.

 

Indeed, you don't if you are talking about the energy, nature, emotion, void, symbiosis that you stated about. The name "God" now typically refers to the Abrahamic God of Judaism and Christianity. but you appear to not believe in that "God." So what then is Jesus' connection to your version of "God?"

 

Some ancient indians believe they were ministered to by someone who they described as being a Jesus figure way before Christians brought the Bible or any Christian teachings to them. This proves nothing except that experience with God does not require books. In the same way that witches have practiced their art for many generations without abiding texts.

 

Actually it only shows that early peoples had no knowledge of the world and nature, or science. They came up with "God" (spirits, universal powers, kami, spooks ...) to explain what they couldn't. These early beliefs are generally agricutural, animistic beliefs.

 

For me, however, the beliefs of Jesus, with observation and study appear to work for me, but I respect that others will worship the mysteries of the universe as God. Or not at all. For me the belief that Jesus came to show how to live works.

 

I'm still not following. You state the following about the bible -

the 4 Gospels from the Greek are NOT the original works. Early church fathers testify that at least one of them was first composed in Aramaic and only later in Greek. My personal belief is that like the writings of Paul that the Gospels contain cut and pastes that were written by people later. Take the totally wacked out Gospel of John that presents itself in a completely different way than the other Synoptic gospels.

 

Then you say that the beliefs of Jesus work for you. Where are you reading the beliefs of Jesus if not in the very bible that you just ripped the sh!t out of? How are you able to determine what is correct and what is not? How are you to know what Jesus believed if the ONLY text that mentions him is the very text you deny is original or true?

 

We could look at the conscience of man and how it separates us from the animal kingdom.

 

Does it?

 

Our inner moral structure that tells us that murder is wrong everywhere.

 

Morals are not fixed. They wax and wane, change with the perceptions of various cultures down through time. Murder may be wrong in one culture but not in another.

 

I never said I did NOT believe in the entire Bible.

 

Highlight then if you would which parts you DO believe in. How do you determine which parts are to be believed and which are not?

[Legion]

We could look at the conscience of man and how it separates us from the animal kingdom.

 

Does it?

This echoes my sentiments exactly Jun. So many seem to be so quick to set us above the other animals of our planet. Why is that? I am fauna. I am a mammal.

[Kuroikaze]

1. Where does one find these "teachings of Jesus" if not in the bible, in any of it's forms?

 

We could look at the conscience of man and how it separates us from the animal kingdom. Our inner moral structure that tells us that murder is wrong everywhere. And why would we need to remove the teachings of Jesus from the Bible for them to be valid or applicable? I never said I did NOT believe in the entire Bible. It is just not an inerrant book.

 

Hate to burst your bubble, but many animals display moral structures as well. Moral structures appear to be created out of survivalist need, not by any deity, anthropomorphic or otherwise.

 

And logically, if you don't believe all of the bible, then you must have an outside criterion for deciding what parts are true and what parts are false, therefor that outside criterion is what you place trust in and not the bible....so why exactly does one need the bible if there are other, apparently BETTER, standards for morality and truth?

 

Also, when you say things like god is intelligence, energy, or nature you seem to be making a fallacy of equivocation. Look it up.

[Ouroboros]

We could look at the conscience of man and how it separates us from the animal kingdom. Our inner moral structure that tells us that murder is wrong everywhere.

There's some problems with that idea. Think about it a bit.

 

A majority of people (Christian or not, non-religious or not, Muslism or Jews or Buddhists) have this moral code.

A few people, massmurderers and rapists etc, do not have these moral codes.

 

So from that we can see, moral code does not come in the same package to everyone, and it doesn't naturally come from one religion or another. Atheists are moral too, without a Bible, so the Bible isn't the key to morality. Now most people have it built in, but some do not, so it is not a supernatural functionality in the assume "soul" that causes people to be moral. So where is it then?

 

The answer is two fold: 1) the brain has a moral "compass" as a genetic evolved function, which also animals has been proven to have (like murdering my family), 2) and the second answer is that morality is built upon language, culture and understanding of ourselves within the system of society, certain things we learn from our parents, media, school and friends not to do (like stealing).

 

Another point is that most of the moral codes in the Bible that Jesus supposedly said and the ones you find in the OT, they come from older cultures and ideas. The Golden Rule for instance did exist before 1 CE. So Jesus wasn't unique.

 

--edit--

 

Joshuan1, solve this moral dilemma:

 

A train is coming on a track, and there is a fork to two tracks. On one track there are 5 people standing, and on the other is just one person standing. The train is heading for the group of people, but you have the chance of switching the track so the train will go and hit the single person instead. What will you do?

 

Change the setting a little, now the single person is you wife, husband or child? What would you do?

 

And again, change it, now place 5 people on both tracks, what would you do?

 

And then lastly, there's two groups of 5 people, one consists of important people like some politician that is working for peace in the world and the other group consist only of homeless guys. What would you do if the train was originally heading for the VIPs? What would you do if the train was originaly heading for the bums?

 

I'm certain that you will have a hard time finding a guideline in the Bible or any book to figure this out. You would have to draw this from your own mind, and you would find arguments to why you decide one way or the other. You will not know the answers intuitively, but you would have to give yourself reasons to why you're compelled one way or the other. And you probably would discover that not everyone would agree with your arguments or your decisions, and yet everyone would consider themselves moral.

[Legion]

Damn Hans, you're good. Have you done this before?

[Ouroboros]

Damn Hans, you're good. Have you done this before?

I guess I have. The arguments get sharper the more you use them.

[Guest Joshuan1]

Hate to burst your bubble, but many animals display moral structures as well. Moral structures appear to be created out of survivalist need, not by any deity, anthropomorphic or otherwise.

 

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No ones bubble is being burst. Your answer isn't providing proof otherwise. The word APPEAR is very weak. Its based entirely on perspective, which is just as factually weak as my religious views and just as factually weak as your non-religious views.

 

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And logically, if you don't believe all of the bible, then you must have an outside criterion for deciding what parts are true and what parts are false, therefor that outside criterion is what you place trust in and not the bible....so why exactly does one need the bible if there are other, apparently BETTER, standards for morality and truth?

 

 

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I never said they did need the Bible. In fact I told you that the moral code came before it.

 

 

So this isn't about the questions asked....which I answered, this is about being a pin-cushion for others to begin asking a number of questions. PROVE THERE IS NO GOD. NO INTELLIGENT DESIGN. Your beliefs are nothing more than your limited perception as mortals, the same as mine. James Randi (a great man) has spent years debunking frauds and fakers who claim to have supernatural gifts and abilities. Yet, he clearly makes known that he is completely unable to prove that such supernatural abilities do not exist. He has repeatedly said that he cannot prove it. The initial thread was about asking questions and I gave answers. Not one of those questions had to do with proving God existed. Thats the nagging itch that you are going to have to get scratched for yourself. I answered the questions. Then I am told I am being delusional. It instantly went off topic right then and there and became as rigged as a three card Monty game. And now the dare to answer even more questions. I'll pass. I did what the post called for.