Why Does Christ Need Warriors?

[Open_Minded]

I've heard fundies refer to themselves as "Warriors for Christ"

 

Since I've never been involved in the fundamentalist/literalist forms of Christianity - this phrase has always befuddled me a bit.

 

Re 22:13 - I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

 

Why does the Beginning and the End need defense?

 

If Christ will have it all in the end - what is the need for warriors in the battle of good and evil?

 

I'm being serious here - this whole line of thinking just makes no sense to me.

 

I welcome responses from both current and former fundies.

 

Thank you

[Poonis]

Similarily, I had often wondered why it is that god, supposedly being more powerful than mere humans, needs humans to fight for him. What could humans possibly accomplish that god himself could not?

 

This was partly responsible for my apostasy because I, as a fundamentalist christian, could not answer it.

[Kelli]

Another question I have is, why does god feel the need to fight at all? It seems to me that an omni-everything god wouldn't need to fight. He should just tell his creation to cut the shit and that should be the end of it.

[Mythra]

Well, my answer of course, comes from my mindset.

 

But, Christ needs warriors - real, human, tangible beings - to advance his cause -

 

because he is unable to. Yahweh, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the big three - are utterly without any powers or abilities to accomplish a single miniscule task. Since they are not real.

 

Humans (real, live beings with functioning brains and powers of persuasion) are required to keep the faith alive and to perpetuate the religion for generation after generation.

 

I know this isn't exactly the answer you were looking for, OM.

[Legion]

I think that I’ve always wanted to fight the good fight. There was a time, more than 17 years ago, that I saw Jesus as representing the good fight.

 

What more do I need to say? Gandhi was a righteous warrior. Martin Luther King was a righteous warrior. Jesus was a righteous warrior. These men, whether real or fictional, call us to be righteous warriors also.

 

I still want to fight the good fight. I think most people do. I think the difficulty resides in knowing which fight is the good one. Everyone will tell you that their cause is the good one, that their fight is righteous. I think that ultimately each must continuously decide for themselves.

[Taphophilia]

OM,

 

It's how they interperet Ephesians 6:11-18

 

Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

[Lycorth]

Nice topic

 

It's simple, really. All-powerful beings shouldn't need to rely on humans to advance their religions. If it is said there is an all-powerful god but he needs humans to do his work for him, either that god isn't all-powerful or simply doesn't exist.

 

Of course, such thinking is blasphemy in Xian circles, because it could cause one to leave The Faith™

[white_raven23]

I think the "warrior" mentality serves the purpose of binding the group together in the name of a "cause". Christians talk about enemies of Christ and enemies of god all the time.

 

Truegrit did too in another thread here. And she never responded when I asked her precisely WHO this earthly opposition was. It's possible she'd never tried to put a face on the opposing "army".

 

But in a sense she did not need to. The "enemies of Christ" always just "happen" to be all the people who do things you don't approve of. You just can't come right out and say that, because it's obviously biased.

 

But a real opposition? A horde slavering at the chance to persecute good christian "warriors" for their faith because they hate god?

 

Only in the movies (and literature).

[Open_Minded]

Thank you everyone - for your thoughtful replies. They all make a certain amount of sense. I can see where the whole concept is driven by human ego and (in general) I don't disagree with what you have all written.

 

It just baffles me that people actually expend so much energy on the whole concept of "Defending Christ".

• If God IS Love - then Love needs no defense - it just simply IS.
  
• If Christ is the Beginning and the End - then that needs no defense either. The Beginning and the End just IS - it would be like defending eternity.
  

Anyway - all these Christians come to this board. It is pretty obvious to me that many of them are working the "warrior for Christ" angle - earning medals of honor from the "army of Christ". It is beyond me why they expend the energy - after being here for over a year - I've not seen them make one re-convert.

 

_________________

 

Legion Regalis - I do agree with you about the concept of "fighting the good fight". King and Gandhi are two of my favorite heroes. I guess I just don't associate "warrior" imagery with their work of peace-building.

 

And Mythra

 

I know this isn't exactly the answer you were looking for, OM.

I don't know that I was looking for any particular answer. Your answer was honest - and I appreciate that. Thanks.

[Mythra]

I can give you the fundy answer, OM.

 

The reason you have no concept of spiritual warfare, is because you aren't a true christian. The devil leaves you alone because he isn't threatened by you.

 

It's only those of us who are involved in truly making an impact for Christ that know the meaning of spiritual warfare and fighting the fight of faith. We know the meaning of it because we are involved in daily attacks upon our faith. They come in the form of mental attacks - demons trying to get us to doubt. They come in the form of sexual temptations - trying to lure us away from the spiritual life and into carnality.

 

The devil also tries to side-track us by parading forms of diluted faith (such as you expound) - that tries to get us off the path of righteousness and into some New-Age mumbo jumbo where we will lose our way. These are the most pernicious attacks of all.

 

So, we put on the full armour of God. As Taph quotes from Ephesians. And we hold fast to our faith.

 

The devil roams about like a vicious lion, just looking for his next victim to devour. If you can't feel his breath on the back of your neck, it's because you already belong to him and are headed for hell.

 

Please read the book Pilgrim's Progress, and you will better understand the difficulties of truly walking with Jesus.

 

How's that?

[Legion]

Legion Regalis - I do agree with you about the concept of "fighting the good fight". King and Gandhi are two of my favorite heroes. I guess I just don't associate "warrior" imagery with their work of peace-building.

That's interesting Open Minded. Surely I'm not alone in casting Gandhi and King as righteous warriors.

[Thurisaz]

because he is unable to. Yahweh, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the big three - are utterly without any powers or abilities to accomplish a single miniscule task. Since they are not real.

 

Exactly. Remember that verse from Judges about them iron chariots?

 

Plus, morontheists want to feel extra-super-hyper-special because they believe the bullshit. They crave to be Herrenmenschen, whether they openly admit it or not. It's just a small step from "They™ are not like Us™" to "They™ are Our™ enemies!!!"... as history has shown again and again.

[Alice]

I think its all connected to the need ingrained in most of us (thankfully to a lesser extent in all but the fanatical) to feel part of an 'us', and this is in part experienced by the existence of a 'them'.

 

I see no difference between christian warriors, than the extremes of nationalism or football (soccer) hooligans.

 

I remember a christian song that was really popular at my last church, the refrain was simply 'Our God reigns, our God reigns, our God reigns'. It struck me one day that it was 'My God's bigger than your God' - and that this was a version of 'my teams better than your team' songs, sung every saturday on the terraces. (The melodies even sounded similar!)

 

Most football supporters are ordinary nice people. A few take their involvement to extremes - hating everyone else, defending the 'honour' of their team - reacting aggressively to 'insults' from other fans, and willing to resort to violence to ensure they are the victors.

 

It's an evolutionary tribal trait I guess.

 

It's not really a 'defense' of God ... just as hooliganism is not a defense of sport - it's a defense of their 'tribe'. Their way of life is threatened by outsiders but also requires outsiders inorder for them to feel part of something.

[Open_Minded]

That's interesting Open Minded. Surely I'm not alone in casting Gandhi and King as righteous warriors.

Oh no, Legion Regalis, I wasn't stating in any way that your take on the "warrior of Christ" was "wrong" - just different from what I'm accustomed to hearing - that's all.

 

On a personal level - I've never connected with that imagery. Gandhi and King are peace-builders - so "warrior" imagery just never "fit" for me when I think of these men.

 

The reason you have no concept of spiritual warfare, is because you aren't a true christian. The devil leaves you alone because he isn't threatened by you. <snip>

 

The devil also tries to side-track us by parading forms of diluted faith (such as you expound) - that tries to get us off the path of righteousness and into some New-Age mumbo jumbo where we will lose our way. These are the most pernicious attacks of all.

 

So, we put on the full armour of God. As Taph quotes from Ephesians. And we hold fast to our faith.

 

Thanks Mythra

 

See - there's another term that just amuses/baffles me "spiritual warfare". I mean really - when you think about it - isn't that an oxymoron?

 

It has occurred to me - after reading everyone's responses and watching all the fundies repeated incursions into "enemy territory" as they come here and try to "win souls for Christ" that you all aught to have a contest and come up with some medals that can be pinned on the "warriors for Christ". I mean every army has their honors and medals - and every good warrior is proud of all the medals on his/her uniform. Shouldn't the "Army of GAWD" have a few medals as well.

 

 

And Alice:

 

I think its all connected to the need ingrained in most of us (thankfully to a lesser extent in all but the fanatical) to feel part of an 'us', and this is in part experienced by the existence of a 'them'.

You're answer fits well with what White Raven said:

 

I think the "warrior" mentality serves the purpose of binding the group together in the name of a "cause". Christians talk about enemies of Christ and enemies of god all the time.

 

Logically - what you've all written about in regards to "us" and "them" thinking is a conclusion that I've already drawn.

 

What troubles me with the "us" and "them" thinking in religion - is the amount of violence it leads to. Generally speaking wars and genocide cannot be attributed to "us" and "them" thinking in sports.

 

This type of thinking - in regards to religion - does lead to mass violence. At some point in time one would think the human race might wake up and realize that the whole "spiritual warfare" dimension of any given religion serves to do nothing but nullify said theology.

 

But, hey - it's not as though all of you haven't all ready realized this - and the literalist nutcases don't listen anyway. As Mythra pointed out - common sense is the devil trying to lure TRUE soldiers of Christ away from their salvation.

 

So ---- anyway - since most of you have been soldiers for Christ and intimately involved in spiritual warfare - I think it would be a fun exercise to come up with a few medals that can be pinned on various "warriors" who decide to grace us with their presence.

[Mythra]

I googled "christian spiritual warfare", and from the first hit got this:

 

Spiritual warfare' is the struggle to have life in this material world reflect as much as possible God's loving governance. It is a 'war' because there are forces working vigorously to thwart God's work. God is in charge, but there is an enemy that is in full-scale revolt, and it has powerful influence all around. As with the unseen God, the forces behind the revolt are unseen, non-physical, and supernatural. They lust after power in the world of visible, material beings. Just because the battle is unseen doesn't mean it isn't going on. It is. In every nook and cranny of our earthly existence. In deciding to follow Christ, the believer accepts the rulership of Christ in his/her life (that's what's meant when Jesus is called 'Lord' -- His authority and rule). This New You yields the throne of the self to Jesus, but the Old You doesn't like it one bit.

 

The site has lots of information on determining when someone is demon-possessed, whether to make a frontal assault on the devil, how to recognize satanic attacks.

 

This is the mindset of lots and lots of christians. Literal demons are all around us. Your faith is something that must be guarded against satanic attacks. The eternal destiny of souls hangs in the balance. Even your emotions need to be watched, to make sure they are not being placed in your head by evil forces.

 

Fundies view people like us (atheists) and like you, OM (someone who identifies themselves as a christian but interprets the bible differently) in the same boat. We are all viewed as unknowing accomplices of the devil. We are furthering the dark forces and doing unspeakable evil, without even being aware of it. If anything, a fundy might see a more liberal view of christianity as even more evil than atheism, since it "disguises itself as an angel of light", whereas atheism is obvious in its opposition to the "truth".

 

It's no wonder that fundamentalism, taken just one step too far, leads to mental illness and paranoia.

[Mythra]

I thought this was kind of handy:

 

 

A spiritual warfare play set for your six-year old. To get them started on the right foot.

[Vixentrox]

Yep, a sword to cut the bellies of the heathons. Gory be to Jebus!

[Open_Minded]

I googled "christian spiritual warfare", and from the first hit got this:

 

Spiritual warfare' is the struggle to have life in this material world reflect as much as possible God's loving governance. It is a 'war' because there are forces working vigorously to thwart God's work. God is in charge, but there is an enemy that is in full-scale revolt, and it has powerful influence all around. As with the unseen God, the forces behind the revolt are unseen, non-physical, and supernatural. They lust after power in the world of visible, material beings. Just because the battle is unseen doesn't mean it isn't going on. It is. In every nook and cranny of our earthly existence. In deciding to follow Christ, the believer accepts the rulership of Christ in his/her life (that's what's meant when Jesus is called 'Lord' -- His authority and rule). This New You yields the throne of the self to Jesus, but the Old You doesn't like it one bit.

 

Wow - that site provides a wakeup call.

 

This is the mindset of lots and lots of christians. Literal demons are all around us. Your faith is something that must be guarded against satanic attacks. The eternal destiny of souls hangs in the balance. Even your emotions need to be watched, to make sure they are not being placed in your head by evil forces.

 

Fundies view people like us (atheists) and like you, OM (someone who identifies themselves as a christian but interprets the bible differently) in the same boat. We are all viewed as unknowing accomplices of the devil. We are furthering the dark forces and doing unspeakable evil, without even being aware of it. If anything, a fundy might see a more liberal view of christianity as even more evil than atheism, since it "disguises itself as an angel of light", whereas atheism is obvious in its opposition to the "truth".

 

Yes, I got a real concrete taste of this a few years ago. In addition to being actively involved in the interfaith movement I also teach meditation. The form of meditation that I teach is rooted in the Christian tradition. The group I'm involved in often has newspaper articles about upcoming events that we sponsor.

 

A few years ago - I got a call from someone wanting to learn meditation. She was dealing with clinical depression and her psychologist suggested she learn some form of meditation. She called me because she wanted to learn "Christian" meditation.

 

It isn't unusual for me to get these calls. So, I made an appointment to meet with her and her husband. She was a fundy - he was not. I think it was him who convinced her to meet with me. The form of meditation that I teach is quite simple - it involves centering the mind on one simple word (each individual can choose their own word).

 

Well this woman was out of her mind with fear at the following:

• Talking to me in the first place. She outright told me that her pastor would consider me a "tool of the devil".
  
• Allowing her mind to center on one simple word - she thought (Very literally) that this would create an "opening" for the devil to have his way with her.
  

It took her husband and myself 3-4 meetings of over 2 hours each to convince her that she could meditate. Now she uses this form of meditation multiple times a day and her depression has improved. She's even gone to retreats which feature this form of meditation. She has never told her pastor about me - she says he would strongly disaprove of her practicing this form of meditation and would disaprove of her meeting with me. I'm sure he would - although I don't see why he feels meditation is so wrong. There is a strong history of contemplation within the Christian tradition, but whatever.

 

Anyway - what stays with me, in regards to this woman - is the fear she had when we first met. That is when I got my first taste of the power of literalist thinking in regards to "evil". It was so sad - and to this day I think the literalism she'd been exposed to was a strong contributing factor to the clinical depression. She is still a literalist, she still believes in a literal devil, but practicing this meditation has helped her to open up some. And she is healthier - but I truly don't know if she'll ever be able to let go of the idea of this big cosmic battle going on for the soul of humanity.

[Mythra]

I made brief excusions into being this far gone in the years I was following Harold.

 

I can't tell you what a relief it is to escape it for good.

 

I will never ever forget the first morning I woke up and realized that there was nothing in the room except myself. What a breath of fresh air after being surrounded by demons and angels and spiritual beings.

 

Damn. Gives me shivvers just thinking about it.

[Open_Minded]

I will never ever forget the first morning I woke up and realized that there was nothing in the room except myself. What a breath of fresh air after being surrounded by demons and angels and spiritual beings.

 

Damn. Gives me shivvers just thinking about it.

 

You're serious?????

 

That's the depth this "spiritual warfare" thinking can take - that you're never really alone - there are always angels, devils and any number of spiritual beings constantly battling over your soul - literally with you as you move through the day?

 

OMG - no wonder she was suffering from clinical depression.... (sigh - sad sigh)

[Mythra]

Oh yeah. I'm being dead serious.

 

And it even got to where I would pray at night before going to bed that my mind wouldn't be attacked while I was sleeping.

 

 

Not a real good way to live.

[roman]

I am a nook and cranny warrior. Not too big on the nookies, though.

[Mythra]

I can tell you this for sure. When I was deepest into fundyism, I never in a million years would have set foot on this site. It would have seemed like I was walking directly into the pits of hell.

 

When I first saw the term EX-CHRISTIAN here, I couldn't believe that anyone would have the courage to call themselves such a thing.

 

Now I are one. And I ain't skeared.

[Open_Minded]

I can tell you this for sure. When I was deepest into fundyism, I never in a million years would have set foot on this site. It would have seemed like I was walking directly into the pits of hell.

 

When I first saw the term EX-CHRISTIAN here, I couldn't believe that anyone would have the courage to call themselves such a thing.

 

Now I are one. And I ain't skeared.

 

 

I'm happy for you, Mythra.... And everyone else who escaped from that kind of hell.

 

Most of the time I'm concerned for the damage literalism does to the world as a whole, wars and other types of violence. Often I forget about the damage it does to the hearts and psyches of individual human beings.

 

I do believe humanity is growing up. You wouldn't have found a site like this one just 10-15 years ago. And there are signs of changes elsewhere as well. The group I'm involved in is only about 5 years old. I live in a suburb of a large metro area. The interfaith group in the city is only about 15-20 years old. So, the world is changing and people are starting doing the work of rising above all the literalism. It will take time - but I do trust that the children of today will live in a better world when they are our age. And that makes the work worth while.

[Jubilant]

I never in a million years would have set foot on this site. It would have seemed like I was walking directly into the pits of hell.

 

LOL, I came across the main site on accident one time. Of course, I was still a Christian but when I got there I was SHOCKED and thinking, "OMG!! I can't believe all these people are bad-mouthing God!" Of course, being that I did not believe in the whole OSAS argument I didn't bother posting because it seemed fruitless to try and talk *sense* into apostates seeing how they couldn't return anyway. I do remember praying to God for forgiveness for seeing the demons and women picture...lol and I remember crying for the people here reminding god that he did change his mind in the bible when Abraham said "If just 30 people believe...blah, blah, blah".

 

When I first saw the term EX-CHRISTIAN here, I couldn't believe that anyone would have the courage to call themselves such a thing.

 

That didn't phase me a bit, I was more troubled over the fact that there were actually ex-christians because I'd never known any in my life or even heard that any existed.

 

Now I are one. And I ain't skeared.

 

Me neither and I'm so glad that I remembered EXC!