I've Staked My Turf!

[R. S. Martin]

Hey RubySera,

 

Sorry!! I think I used the wrong word there (i.e. evil) and should have left it at toxic.

 

I don't think they're evil - just doing toxic things that's all.

 

But yeah...I got the impression they just weren't good for you, if you know what I mean.

 

You've got a great attitude by the way! You have done the right thing by laying down the law with them so to speak. Hopefully this will get them thinking. Do keep us posted! Hope it all goes well!

 

Cheers,

Amelia

 

Kurari said:

Yay Ruby! I hope they take you up on your challenge and you get this resolved once and for all.

 

I will get this resolved NOW. Without that challenge. Here's the letter I am about to put in the mail:

 

Jan. 16, 2007

 

Sis,

 

[Classmate] probably talked to you sometime since she talked with me on Sunday noon. I will not meet with you. I lost too many hours of work trying to deal with that phone call. By allowing her to call me you violated the conditions I spelled out. I don't want to hear from you either by phone or letter or proxy.

 

Proxy=talking to me through someone else.

 

If I get any more letters from the family they will be destroyed or returned unopened.

 

Sorry for the disappointment this causes you, but the way I got treated this fall was the last straw. I was giving you personally one last chance but you blew it.

 

Ruby

 

PS I don't want to hear from [classmate] either.

 

************

That should effectively cut them out of my life.

[exbeliever]

Ouch! That's pretty harsh. Are you sure you won't come out looking like the unreasonable one?

[R. S. Martin]

Ouch! That's pretty harsh. Are you sure you won't come out looking like the unreasonable one?

 

Of course it's harsh and appears unreasonable--to all but those who actually took the time to get to know me and the situation. Your post is extremely hurtful. This site exists to support exChristians. I did not ask your opinion. I simply updated folk as they asked me to do.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Ouch! That's pretty harsh. Are you sure you won't come out looking like the unreasonable one?

 

 

exb:

 

Having taken the time and given the opportunity to chat with Ruby, and in some time learned more of her, the life she has, and all she walked away from, her note is short, sweet, stabbingly to the point.

 

Read the posts in thread, notice the lady has fenced and boxed *nicely* around the issues and problems she faced/faces with "family".

 

It isn't a innoculation she wants, it is an amputation. They have their ways and have a corporate method that IS their life.

There is NO variance allowed for the men, and damnned less for the women.

 

She walked away from her foundations, roots and social mores to a Freedom they can't understand.

 

Freedom like hers costs everyfuckingthing once thought owned or possessed.

 

Ruby simply is "Walking the Talk instead of running her keyboard or gums with bullshit. Sacrificing everything to free herself and make her own way in this World, one her entire prior social commitments said was "bad" "poison" "ugly".

 

I don't know that there are many like Ruby. She so far is the first Old Order that has come to these steps at Dave's House and walked in.

 

Am proud to know her, and call her my Friend.

 

kL

[R. S. Martin]

Ouch! That's pretty harsh. Are you sure you won't come out looking like the unreasonable one?

 

 

exb:

 

Having taken the time and given the opportunity to chat with Ruby, and in some time learned more of her, the life she has, and all she walked away from, her note is short, sweet, stabbingly to the point.

 

Read the posts in thread, notice the lady has fenced and boxed *nicely* around the issues and problems she faced/faces with "family".

 

It isn't a innoculation she wants, it is an amputation. They have their ways and have a corporate method that IS their life.

There is NO variance allowed for the men, and damnned less for the women.

 

She walked away from her foundations, roots and social mores to a Freedom they can't understand.

 

Freedom like hers costs everyfuckingthing once thought owned or possessed.

 

Ruby simply is "Walking the Talk instead of running her keyboard or gums with bullshit. Sacrificing everything to free herself and make her own way in this World, one her entire prior social commitments said was "bad" "poison" "ugly".

 

I don't know that there are many like Ruby. She so far is the first Old Order that has come to these steps at Dave's House and walked in.

 

Am proud to know her, and call her my Friend.

 

kL

 

THANKS!

[exbeliever]

Ouch! That's pretty harsh. Are you sure you won't come out looking like the unreasonable one?

 

Of course it's harsh and appears unreasonable--to all but those who actually took the time to get to know me and the situation. Your post is extremely hurtful. This site exists to support exChristians. I did not ask your opinion. I simply updated folk as they asked me to do.

 

Wow, that's quite the reaction to (a) a statement you agree with (viz. that the tone of your letter is harsh) and (b ) a question about the appropriateness of the tone of your letter.

 

So, now I wonder if everyone is really out to get you or if you just wear your emotions on your sleeve and overreact to everyone else like you just overreacted to my comment.

 

This site exists to support exChristians.

 

"Support" is not always saying, "Good job, you made the right decision." Support may be asking a simple question like, "Are you sure you won't come out looking like the unreasonable one?"

 

I did not ask your opinion. I simply updated folk as they asked me to do.

 

If you air your business to the world, you shouldn't be surprised when the world responds . . . even those that MAY disagree with you.

 

***

 

I'm sorry that your family has mistreated you. I've experienced the same from many of my own friends and family. It hurts and it sucks. They are wrong for putting their beliefs over their relationship with you. You are still their daughter and sister and they should just be happy that you are happy with your decision.

 

But . . . [and here comes the unsolicited advice]

 

It seems that you are adding unnecessary drama to the situation. Why not just keep responding, "You know, every time you keep pressing me about my beliefs, it makes me feel that you care more about beliefs than you do about me. It hurts my feelings. I just want to move on with it," and then change the subject?

 

Anyway, to keep from offending you, I'll make sure that I don't respond to any more of your posts on this forum unless you specifically ask me a question or direct a comment to me.

 

I, truly, wish you the best with this situation.

[Legion]

I had a friend once who came to the realization that it might benefit her to establish some boundaries in her life. When she first began to do it it yielded some very positive results for her. And then she went a little overboard. She began to shut out people in her life that wanted nothing but liberation for her.

 

I often wonder how she's doing. I hope that she found some balance in her life. It's all well and good to have appropriate boundaries, but I think they become detrimental when they begin shutting everyone out.

[white_raven23]

It seems that you are adding unnecessary drama to the situation. Why not just keep responding, "You know, every time you keep pressing me about my beliefs, it makes me feel that you care more about beliefs than you do about me. It hurts my feelings. I just want to move on with it," and then change the subject?

 

Miss Manners would certainly approve.

And in a Norman Rockwell world, this "high road" approach would work. But Rubysera has done that. She's said "quit beating a dead horse". It's her family that insists on dragging the dead corpse out of the closet to start wacking away at it at every opportunity.

 

And the action her sister took....bringing in a third party without discussing it with RubySera FIRST....how exactly is that appropriate?

 

RubySera is NOT a teenager rubbing her angsty "I hate my parents" hormones all over the board. This hasn't been an easy go for her.

 

Now RubySera is taking her life in her hands. What do "appearances" matter when it's her family trying to hold her in a place where RubySera just plain doesn't belong anymore?

 

"Support" is not always saying, "Good job, you made the right decision." Support may be asking a simple question like, "Are you sure you won't come out looking like the unreasonable one?"

 

No....the kind of support you are talking about would be asking "Are you sure you want to cut off your family?" not asking about how it would "look".

[R. S. Martin]

It seems that you are adding unnecessary drama to the situation. Why not just keep responding, "You know, every time you keep pressing me about my beliefs, it makes me feel that you care more about beliefs than you do about me. It hurts my feelings. I just want to move on with it," and then change the subject?

 

Miss Manners would certainly approve.

And in a Norman Rockwell world, this "high road" approach would work. But Rubysera has done that. She's said "quit beating a dead horse". It's her family that insists on dragging the dead corpse out of the closet to start wacking away at it at every opportunity.

 

And the action her sister took....bringing in a third party without discussing it with RubySera FIRST....how exactly is that appropriate?

 

RubySera is NOT a teenager rubbing her angsty "I hate my parents" hormones all over the board. This hasn't been an easy go for her.

 

Now RubySera is taking her life in her hands. What do "appearances" matter when it's her family trying to hold her in a place where RubySera just plain doesn't belong anymore?

 

"Support" is not always saying, "Good job, you made the right decision." Support may be asking a simple question like, "Are you sure you won't come out looking like the unreasonable one?"

No....the kind of support you are talking about would be asking "Are you sure you want to cut off your family?" not asking about how it would "look".

 

White Raven, thank you for understanding, and for walking with me through this mess.

 

LR, I think you are suggesting I keep some people in my life. Never fear. Decades of thought, experiment, and preparation have gone into this decision.

[R. S. Martin]

Good plan, Ruby (and yes, nice icon )

 

I wish you the best, and do tell us how it goes. I know my time will come soon enough to reveal my own deconversion, and I dislike the thought of upsetting nice people for something as stupid as religious differences, yet it may be just that.

 

Who knows what those of us still in the closet can learn from you?

 

Varokhar, I'm looking over some of the earlier posts in this thread. The advice I would give you today is to just stay in the closet. I never planned about coming out. It just happened by accident that I let something slip. I'm being a lot more careful now regarding whom I tell what these days. I assume that most of the people I am around are Christians of some sort. Not necessarily church-going Christians, or the type that hold membership anywhere, but they like to think of themselves as Christians all the same.

[♦ nivek ♦]

exb:

 

To massacre a few metaphors....

 

"Does your clock rise to the top floor?"

 

Bubba you bother to read Ruby's works and posts? Not sure what to say to you, save to say that her life is as different *now* to she as her life before was strange to *us*.

 

When you unship your anchor, untie from what holds you safe, you are cutting loose of everything that binds you and *might* keep you safe in a storm.

 

Ruby cut the hawser of life off her anchor. Wanted the new breeze to take her away. Family tried hard to sink this journey before it started.

 

She refused.

 

I don't know where you are coming from, but in my world a carefully crafted FOAD works just as well as 10,000 pretty words. Believe that Ruby has crafted all the pretty words she is willing to shed over those who want to supress her newfound life, cause her to return to their happyassed control of her every thought and movement.

 

Freedom to we who have had choices isn't anywhere as valuable to those who have fought hard to earn, retain and continue to desire that elusive state.

 

I applaud Ruby and her works to tell her smothering kin to go away and leave her alone..

 

Dunno if you grok the screaming need for Freedom. She does. That is why Ex-Christian is here, and I serve the Community.

In part I'll teach people that telling assholes to Fuck Off And Die is sometimes a good and necessary thing.

 

Even if they are well intended family...

 

kFL

[Amethyst]

Miss Manners would certainly approve.

And in a Norman Rockwell world, this "high road" approach would work. But Rubysera has done that. She's said "quit beating a dead horse". It's her family that insists on dragging the dead corpse out of the closet to start wacking away at it at every opportunity.

 

And the action her sister took....bringing in a third party without discussing it with RubySera FIRST....how exactly is that appropriate?

 

RubySera is NOT a teenager rubbing her angsty "I hate my parents" hormones all over the board. This hasn't been an easy go for her.

 

Now RubySera is taking her life in her hands. What do "appearances" matter when it's her family trying to hold her in a place where RubySera just plain doesn't belong anymore?

 

Have to agree. She's tried taking the high road already. It hasn't worked. What more can you do? Especially if the family insists on bringing in third parties without warning. She's an adult, not a kid. It's her life. Let her make her choices and live her life how she wants to.

 

As for appearances, worrying about appearances is what keeps so many people in the church anyway. I know it was one reason it took me so long to leave.

[Lycorth]

Ruby, that's good advice, and something I've planned on doing. Basically, don't rock the boat unless it needs to be done.

 

Though it'll have to be done a little, eventually, I can forsee. Ah well.

[R. S. Martin]

Miss Manners would certainly approve.

And in a Norman Rockwell world, this "high road" approach would work. But Rubysera has done that. She's said "quit beating a dead horse". It's her family that insists on dragging the dead corpse out of the closet to start wacking away at it at every opportunity.

 

And the action her sister took....bringing in a third party without discussing it with RubySera FIRST....how exactly is that appropriate?

 

RubySera is NOT a teenager rubbing her angsty "I hate my parents" hormones all over the board. This hasn't been an easy go for her.

 

Now RubySera is taking her life in her hands. What do "appearances" matter when it's her family trying to hold her in a place where RubySera just plain doesn't belong anymore?

 

Have to agree. She's tried taking the high road already. It hasn't worked. What more can you do? Especially if the family insists on bringing in third parties without warning. She's an adult, not a kid. It's her life. Let her make her choices and live her life how she wants to.

 

 

Thank you so much, Amythest. It's people with insight like you and White Raven and Nivek and other good folk here who keep me afloat in a hostile world.

 

As for appearances, worrying about appearances is what keeps so many people in the church anyway. I know it was one reason it took me so long to leave.

 

One of my first strikes to freedom was when I realized that "looking good" was not the honest and humble road in life. When I go by what "looks good" I inevitably end up getting hurt. Appearances are nothing BUT appearances. Where's the meat and potatoes?

[R. S. Martin]

Bubba you bother to read Ruby's works and posts? Not sure what to say to you, save to say that her life is as different *now* to she as her life before was strange to *us*.

 

When you unship your anchor, untie from what holds you safe, you are cutting loose of everything that binds you and *might* keep you safe in a storm.

 

Ruby cut the hawser of life off her anchor. Wanted the new breeze to take her away. Family tried hard to sink this journey before it started.

 

She refused.

 

 

Thanks Kevin. You caught a few good metaphors there. Cutting the anchor to life and safety--that is EXACTLY how it feels. Aside from the emotional trauma there is the physical survival instincts. I know I can count on family to keep me alive in a crisis. Don't know if I can count on them anymore. Been thinking about this for a long time. Some years ago when I was in some kind of need no one showed up. This kind of letter might intensify the situation. But it's not an immediate need and I'm making new friends.......

[mwc]

Looking back at your opening post I can't see anything that forbids third party contact. It seems your sister tried a loophole. How could you have known, right?

 

As I said to Amelia in another thread, I am saddened when things like this happen. My personal experiences have taught me family is the most important thing but I know this isn't true for everyone no matter how much I wish it were.

 

I wish I could convince you to set a firm time/date for a meeting and send that to your family instead. They blew it and now you are deciding the who, what, when, where and how that you were nice enough to try to let them choose before. You'll be waiting at the appointed place/time for 30 minutes and if they don't show then don't bother ever showing.

 

But it appears you're beyond that. We all have our breaking points and you've hit yours with this latest phone call. I hope your decision puts all the drama in the past and brings you all the peace of mind you've been looking for and deserve.

 

mwc

[Kuroikaze]

Hey, I for one think you made the right choice, You have a new life now, and a chance to find a family that will treat you the way you ought to be treated. You don't need your old family mucking that up when it is clear they will not obey the boundaries you set, then it is time to move on..

 

On several occasions, I myself, was afraid that my parents might try to bring an intermediary (like their pastor) in to try to talk me out of my "apostasy" They never did luckily, I don't know how I would have reacted, but I guess they had enough sense to know it wasn't a good idea.

 

Anyway, not that my opinion matters much, but I think you handled as nicely as you could given the circumstances....I would have probably been less civil if I had been the one writing the letter.... but then I can be a jerk sometimes.

[Amethyst]

One of my first strikes to freedom was when I realized that "looking good" was not the honest and humble road in life. When I go by what "looks good" I inevitably end up getting hurt. Appearances are nothing BUT appearances. Where's the meat and potatoes?

 

Right. I've found that when I'm too concerned about what other people think, all it does is make me miserable. It was a behavior I learned from my mother, and have been trying to forget ever since. The meat and potatoes, so to speak, are not how a person looks or what they believe or don't believe, it's how they behave and treat others. But a lot of people tend to forget that and place way too much value on labels, be they Christian or otherwise.

[R. S. Martin]

Looking back at your opening post I can't see anything that forbids third party contact.

 

I did not post the letter I sent to her.

 

I wish I could convince you to set a firm time/date for a meeting and send that to your family instead. They blew it and now you are deciding the who, what, when, where and how that you were nice enough to try to let them choose before. You'll be waiting at the appointed place/time for 30 minutes and if they don't show then don't bother ever showing.

No, this is not the size of it.

 

I hope your decision puts all the drama in the past and brings you all the peace of mind you've been looking for and deserve.

 

mwc

 

The drama in my life never ceases. If I'm not allowed to spew it here I'll find another place to do it.

[exbeliever]

Ruby and others,

 

I'm not interested in engaging in some asinine internet "battle" with you. I just don't care enough.

 

I read every post in this thread. I read every post in this thread before I made my comment. Perhaps my elevator doesn't go to the top floor, or I am totally ignorant, or whatever other insult was thrown out during the course of this (BTW: All of you who commented on my mental deficiencies did know that I'm in MENSA, working on my fourth master's degree, and am a PhD student in philosophy, right? Of course, that doesn't mean I know what the hell I'm talking about, but as long as people are questioning my intelligence, I thought I would mention it again. Do any of you who think I'm an idiot have credentials that I can be impressed by [i.e. other than wearing kitchenware on your head]?)

 

And let's just remind everyone what that comment was, shall we?

 

I said:

 

Ouch! That's pretty harsh. Are you sure you won't come out looking like the unreasonable one?

Is this really worthy of your reaction?

 

How old do you think I am any way? All my grandparents died of old age, so I'm not sure your comment,

 

Now some kid in kindergarten is telling a woman old enough to be his grandma that she is overreacting???

,

 

is quite warranted.

[Dhampir]

No one deserves my love or respect just because they are family. At best, they simply deserve more chances to earn it. At best.

[white_raven23]

(BTW: All of you who commented on my mental deficiencies did know that I'm in MENSA, working on my fourth master's degree, and am a PhD student in philosophy, right? Of course, that doesn't mean I know what the hell I'm talking about, but as long as people are questioning my intelligence, I thought I would mention it again. Do any of you who think I'm an idiot have credentials that I can be impressed by [i.e. other than wearing kitchenware on your head]?)

 

And let's just remind everyone what that comment was, shall we?

 

I said:

 

Ouch! That's pretty harsh. Are you sure you won't come out looking like the unreasonable one?

Is this really worthy of your reaction?

 

It was worthy of mine I think. You're a smart person, after what RubySera has gone through, and for it to come to this point for her that she feels the need to take this action....

 

WHO should she be worried about "coming out looking like the unreasonable one" to? The family she has chosen to shut the door on? Society in general? If she (or any of the rest of us) cared about that, NO ONE would be on this site.

 

Hypothetically, Rubysera just crawled through a jungle, got bit up by army ants, was plagued by mosquitoes and finally....FINALLY found a river and made her way to civilization, and as she is grinning madly as she tells of her successful survival, some tourist in khakis looks at her and asks "And you wore those shoes with those pants?"

[R. S. Martin]

(BTW: All of you who commented on my mental deficiencies did know that I'm in MENSA, working on my fourth master's degree, and am a PhD student in philosophy, right? Of course, that doesn't mean I know what the hell I'm talking about, but as long as people are questioning my intelligence, I thought I would mention it again. Do any of you who think I'm an idiot have credentials that I can be impressed by [i.e. other than wearing kitchenware on your head]?)

 

No I didn't know. That is outstanding academic achievement the likes of which I will never acquire. A person who measures wisdom, credibility, and human worth and intelligence by academic achievements alone will never be impressed by me. Nor do I seek their impression.

[truth]

W

[truth]

Hhhm don't know what happened there..

 

But wow, I go away for two days and I have missed a lot. RubySera, I think you are doing the right thing,I know you wouldn't have come to conclusion without much considertion and thought. In all honestly I think what you are doing is harder than setting up a meeting with them.

 

Hugs... I really do admire you. You are a strong woman to leave your community, go to college and reach for your dreams. You are actually doing it.

 

We are here for you..and if you change your mind about contact in the future.. not saying you are or even suggesting it... You have to do what you believe is right and best for you.

 

Am really glad that my family just thinks that I am a doubting Thomas at the moment...