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Goodbye Jesus

I've Staked My Turf!


R. S. Martin

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I did not post the letter I sent to her.

You did post a summary of it. This lack of information is one reason third party involvement, like myself, can be so difficult in things like this. But that's neither here nor there at this point.

 

The drama in my life never ceases. If I'm not allowed to spew it here I'll find another place to do it.

Well, then maybe we can at least hope you get a reduction of drama then? :)

 

mwc

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Hhhm don't know what happened there..

 

But wow, I go away for two days and I have missed a lot. RubySera, I think you are doing the right thing,I know you wouldn't have come to conclusion without much considertion and thought. In all honestly I think what you are doing is harder than setting up a meeting with them.

 

Hugs... I really do admire you. You are a strong woman to leave your community, go to college and reach for your dreams. You are actually doing it.

 

We are here for you..and if you change your mind about contact in the future.. not saying you are or even suggesting it... You have to do what you believe is right and best for you.

 

Am really glad that my family just thinks that I am a doubting Thomas at the moment...

 

Thanks. At the moment I feel hopeful that in the end I will get what I want/need. This morning I find a telephone message from the one family member whom I trust. I'd been afraid I'd lose her, too. The message was about Mom's health. She informed me that more information is in the mail, and said the reason she left the message was so I wouldn't just throw the letter out when it arrived. It's not as though my letter from yesterday arrived yet, so contact is being maintained through her at least for now. I plan to call her when she gets home from work to prove that I will talk with people who respect and love me as a person.

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Well, then maybe we can at least hope you get a reduction of drama then? :)

 

mwc

 

Are you saying you don't like drama? If so, I don't understand why you follow the posts of people who are going through this kind of crisis. The message I get is, "Ruby, just keep your feelings inside. We don't need all the drama." Maybe I misunderstand you. Maybe that is not what you mean. If so, I would be happy to know it.

 

I need to go. This looks to be a really busy day.

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I think he meant that you ought to be free from at least some of the drama by cutting out a major source of it.

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Are you saying you don't like drama? If so, I don't understand why you follow the posts of people who are going through this kind of crisis. The message I get is, "Ruby, just keep your feelings inside. We don't need all the drama." Maybe I misunderstand you. Maybe that is not what you mean. If so, I would be happy to know it.

It would appear that you are misunderstanding me then. Dhampir has the right idea.

 

It seems that if I don't come right out and praise you then I am somehow against you? That is how I am reading things. All I wanted for you is what you wanted for yourself and I thought that was some peace of mind (ie. to remove the drama from your life). When you said you were never going to be free of drama I respected that and I hoped for, at least, a reduction. You apparently took this to mean that I wanted you to keep your problems to yourself. It seems that something was simply lost in translation is all because no offense was meant on my part in the slightest...quite the opposite in fact. I realize that you're going through some very emotional times right now but try not to let them cloud your judgment. I have no desire to wish you well on one hand and slap you down with the other. What good would that do either of us?

 

mwc

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I think he meant that you ought to be free from at least some of the drama by cutting out a major source of it.

 

Okay that makes sense. The only way I've ever heard the word "drama" used was in connection with theator or with childish peevishness. Thanks for clarifying, Dhampir. English is not my first language and I am relatively new to mainstream society and its slang.

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UPDATE: I talked with my sister last night--the one I think I can trust. She told me everything about mom's situation that she knows. She also pointed out that she does not know what else this person is going to write. I've given it lots more thought. It occurs to me that if she wanted only to update me on mom's health she would have called.

 

The letter arrived in today's mail. It's pretty fat. There's more in it than a simple update on mom's health. I decided to throw it out unopened. I taped it inside an empty cereal box and put it in the garage where all my cardboard goes. This will allow me to change my mind and read it if I want to. It also ensures that, unless I do something about it, it will go out with next week's garbage. And if some garbage picker finds it--well, I can't think of anything bad that could come from it. Maybe I'm not aware of all the dangers since I'm so new to city life. If someone sees a danger in this (besides losing a relationship I don't want), I trust you will inform me. I'm more familiar with getting rid of unwanted mail via the woodstove.

 

MAJOR ITEM: At least, I consider it fairly major. I was told last night that Mom had been in the hospital. Nobody told me. A year ago she was in the hospital, too, and I was informed. Last winter I had gone to visit her twice while she was in the hospital. They live way out in the country. I'm about an hour's walk away from the hospital--and there is excellent bus service--so it's much easier meeting family at the hospital than out where they live (I don't drive). Yet no one told me. Apparently the "cutting contact" thing is happening on the other side, too.

 

Last winter they just didn't know how much of an unbeliever I was. Not until xians bugged and pressured me to talk about my beliefs last summer did I feel the need to take a stand. But the optometrist felt a need to evangelize me when I was in for a regular check-up. I was so upset about this that I told my sister when we were chatting. We were used to sharing life's ups and downs and it never occurred to me not to tell her something so "big." In the end I had to find another optometrist. Apparently my sister was so upset about me not believing that it upset the entire family.

 

They had professed to still like me, though I had problems understanding some of their actions. However, not telling me important family news like this is a first. Had they already gotten my letter where I say I don't want contact, I would understand. As it is, the only reason I can think for them not telling me is because they know more accurately my religious position. I never realized they cared so much what I believed. They have known for some time that I haven't been to church in a long time. I thought leaving their horse and buggy church was the worst possible thing I could have done. They sure treated me as though it were the very worst thing. Apparently it's not.

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Hey Ruby,

 

I've just caught up on the posts and thought I'd definitely post here to let you know that I am sending you SUPPORT!

 

I have been through this before with my own family as you know, and it isn't easy. That said though, it is easier than the constant invalidation and the hurt it causes which inevitably comes when we are in contact with family. For people who have never had this experience, I just want to let them know that when you are abused as a child and your entire family denies it ever happened, it hurts. A lot. You are accused of making it up, lying, etc. And you know that it really happened, and you know that they know it happened as well.

 

For me, it was about 20 years worth of abuse from my father mostly (physical and emotional), with my mother and brother chiming in with some emotional stuff. None of them acknowledge any of it, and when I was in touch with them, they just blamed me for everything.

 

So, it gets to the point where you just have to cut ties to love who you are as a person. As an adult who was abused from childhood through to adult age (whilst living with parents), you do hate who you are when you are with the people who dished this behavior out to you. The unwillingness of the offending parties to even TRY to understand and see your point of view cuts deep. You can only take so much of it, because you will be consumed by depression and distress if you don't walk away from it. You either have to get your family acknowledging the reality that was the abuse and validating you OR you need to walk away. That's the way it is.

 

Ruby has done the right thing here. She has done everything she can, but still her family throw it back in her face.

 

Nup. There is only so much you can take, and you owe it to yourself Ruby to set those boundaries. If they won't try and understand you and validate you, you just have to keep walking. Keep walking, with your head held high. You CAN do it. You WILL do it.

 

I have been there. I did it and life is WONDERFUL!

 

Hugs to you!

Amelia :)

P.S. You have some wonderful supporters here on this site too, and they will help you get through. Pull together a great support group, because they will help you get through. Life will be great for you again.

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Thanks Amelia! This is my support group. I would not be where I am were it not for the support on this forum.

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Hi RubySera,

I think it is good that your sister called you to tell you about about your mothers health.

 

Was it another sister that wrote the big fat letter? Or a relative or just someone in the community?

I think it is wise not to read to letter, and put it in recycling.. Maybe just black out the addresses on the envelope.You never know what information is inside the letter.. but it should be okay if it is taped inside a flattened cereal box.. You are very clever..

 

I think I would be too curious to not read the letter personally, but i certainly understand that it will proabally do you more harm to read it than dispose of it not knowing what was said. But you are right, if that person really wanted you to know everything about your moms health she would have just called you.

 

Hugs..

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Hi RubySera,

I think it is good that your sister called you to tell you about about your mothers health.

 

That was Sister A. She and I shared a home for fifteen years. It was to her that I told the story about the optometrist who evangelized me. And it was through her that the family found out about my deconversion. She and I used to talk quite a bit but it took her several months to get over and come to terms with my deconversion. However, she seems to have come to terms with it. She is willing to be friends but not to talk religion. All the same, she did not tell me about Mom being in the hospital. She did warn me that there might be more in the letter that was coming than just a report of mom's condition. That suggests to me that she still loves me and has not "fed me to the wolves." Unlike a lot of my family, I don't think she is capable of pretending to be something she's not, so I think I am safe trusting her love. When I left the church, some family members needed a lot of time to come to terms with it but when they did they were okay. I think that is what I see in her.

 

Was it another sister that wrote the big fat letter?

 

Yes, this was another sister. A pretender BIG TIME. In very many ways she's the mirror image of mom. And mom is about the biggest pretender/deceiver I've ever known. This is the sister with whom I had that phone call some time back where she finally hung up on me. It was very clear that what I believed was far more important to her than who I am. There is the off-chance that she rectified that in this letter that I didn't read but the likelihood that she justified her position and applied guilt trip tactics is far greater. I am very curious what she actually did say but when I anticipate the more likely stuff she wrote I know I will suffer for weeks to come if I read it.

 

Using a "cover-up" excuse (such as wanting to give an update of mom's health) to write a letter or confront a person is just part and parcel of how we were raised to deal with sensitive issues. Very hurtful. Very untactful. But they will justify themselves and attack me if I don't like it. Thanks for your affirmation, truth.

 

First I just put it in the garbage can beside my desk but I couldn't live with it so close to me physically. The garbage had just gone the day before. I didn't know what to do or how to cope. I was terribly shook up. My hands were all but shaking. Couldn't think at all. I wished I could slip it in-between stuff in the recycling box but I figured it's empty. I wandered through my rooms looking for a solution when I found my collection of empty cereal boxes. I had not put them out for recycling for some odd reason. So I followed my intuition and ended up taping it inside a box. I did NOT want the landlady or her daughter to find it. I think it's safe.

 

I haven't been able to concentrate much on my studies since I got it and had to cancel some things, but I have been doing constructive stuff, developing other relationships, etc. So I think I'm dealing with it.

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I'm sorry you have to go through all this trauma Ruby ~ So how is your mom? Will you visit her?

Becca

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  • 2 weeks later...

UPDATE: Earlier this week I got another letter. I forgot what I had told them and opened the letter. Scanned over it to see what attitude is shown. Friendly throughout. She confessed that she knew I said I would not open any more letters from family but this letter had already been started before she knew that. Fair enough.

 

Having been reminded what I had told them, I did not feel obligated to respond. I did not feel like reading it closely. Just put it in the waste basket beside my desk. However, some of the advice given to others on this site re what to do with letters from church, friends, relatives, etc. had me waffling for a bit there. I think not. If I respond to it I will only feel apprehensive and involved and tie up my own life. I don't need that.

 

While her attitude seems friendly throughout the letter there also seems to be something wrong with it. Finally it hit me. She acknowledges receipt of my letter in which I state that I will not read their letters because of how much they have hurt me. She acknowledges my right not to read them. What she does not do is apologize for having hurt me so badly that I feel a need to withdraw from family.

 

The letter is friendly but superficial. It is as though I have finally met their expectations--I am now so bad (rejecting family is apparently the ultimate evil) that they don't expect anything good from me at all. Thus they don't take offense at my "badness." They cheerfully accept it and show their "love" for me in spite of my badness. They can now properly "love" the "sinner."

 

Any claims on my part for having peace would roll off their backs like water off a duck's back. They would put it down for self-deception and totally disbelieve it. I think the best response is to let truth defend itself. When and if they are open to accepting it, I believe something will happen sometime to convict them of it.

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I am still talking with my one sister, the one I shared a home with for fifteen years. It took her the better part of six months to get over the shock of my deconversion but this week things seem to be back to normal again. We discussed the fact that I had not been informed about Mom's condition a few weeks ago. We cleared that up and she is now doing her best to keep me informed.

 

Mom is scheduled for surgery next week to fuse her left shoulder. She fell a few weeks ago and dislocated it so badly that they can't fix it any other way. Will I visit her in the hospital? A year ago when she broke her hip I did. I'll have to think about the pros and cons. What are the consequences if I don't. What are the consequences if I do.

 

If I don't, I might loose the ground I gained with the sister I'm still talking to. If I do, I will get contaminated with the toxic that emanates from simply being in their presence. If I don't, they will know for sure that I am an evil atheist. If I do, they will be thrown off-balance as to exactly where my boundaries are. They will be bound by the constraints of their religious convictions to pretend they love me, to deny their confusion. Then the push-pull game will start all over and I will lose what ground I gained in establishing myself as independent of them.

 

Here's another fact. In the discussion regarding the reason I was not informed I found out that my siblings who are living right with the situation did not consider it important to immediately inform all the siblings, which means the person who contacts me did not know it right away to let me know. Just because mom fell again and had to go to the hospital apparently did not warrent informing everybody. This is very different from a year ago. I get the feeling mom's chronic ill-health and need for daily personal care is wearing people down.

 

It appears to me that what would have been "front-page" family news a year ago is by now just the run-of-the-mill daily grind. It includes visits to the doctor, visits to the hospital, planning who will do what, keeping up with their own daily schedules and jobs. Making decisions about mom's care despite differing opinions among various people. In light of all this, it may be that my non-visit will not have the same depth of meaning it did a year ago.

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Will I visit her in the hospital? A year ago when she broke her hip I did. I'll have to think about the pros and cons.

 

The high road is doing that which you know is right even though it may be hard. And in this case it sounds like you should go to the hospital.

 

Making decisions about mom's care despite differing opinions among various people. In light of all this, it may be that my non-visit will not have the same depth of meaning it did a year ago.

 

Still, your visiting will speak volumes about your character.

Despite their thoughts about you and how they are wearing down, you are not.

That says something very powerful in my book.

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Will I visit her in the hospital? A year ago when she broke her hip I did. I'll have to think about the pros and cons.

 

The high road is doing that which you know is right even though it may be hard. And in this case it sounds like you should go to the hospital.

 

Making decisions about mom's care despite differing opinions among various people. In light of all this, it may be that my non-visit will not have the same depth of meaning it did a year ago.
Still, your visiting will speak volumes about your character.

Despite their thoughts about you and how they are wearing down, you are not.

That says something very powerful in my book.

 

I get your point. I think I'll wait and see how things turn out before I decide. I think the reason I'm not wearing down is because I don't help with her daily care like they do.

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Thank you, Burnedout. Can I call you Bernie? It's just a play on the word "burnedout" and it seems more like I'm talking to a real person.

 

I've given some more thought to what it would mean to expose myself to my family when I know beyond a doubt that they see me as a bad person. The only way I can redeem myself is to convert back to religion, prefereably to their own church and thereby profess that by getting higher education I commited a gross sin. I can NEVER do that.

 

Remember, folks, I've always been seen as bad in their sight, always in need of change. I just became bad in a much worse sense when I left their church. This is just the way our family worked; Ruby was a bad girl. Period. Now that I have deconverted I've become the ultimate bad--evil might be more like it; I don't really know. I don't know what category they'd put me in if I now went and robbed a bank but I don't do that kind of thing. Nor do I kill people or eat babies. (I doubt that their imagination can stretch that far.)

 

Being disrespectful of my siblings and of our parents and trying to convert them to my way of thinking is the ultimate bad they can conceive of, is my guess. I don't do those things, either. They just imagine that I do. Like someone said on this forum, Christians consider it quite in line for them to evangelize and "win back" an apostate. However, when we simply discuss our beliefs and set boundaries for what we allow them to do to us they see it as open defiance, blasphemy and/or disrespect. And they have no scrupples telling us about it, either. I forbade my family to do this so I guess they over-do the "happy and cheerful" thing when their real feelings regarding me can't possibly be happy and cheerful.

 

It is their sacred duty to love me back into the fold. It seems their way of doing so is to accept all the nasty stuff I say as okay for an atheist. That is the only explanation I can come up with regarding their affirmation of my letters in which I felt I was being very assertive. I think I even expressed some anger and bitterness in my letters. They cheerfully accept it all. That is so crazy-making, if you know what I mean. It cannot bode anything good for me.

 

Some years ago a cousin my age died unexpectedly. He was raised in the modern Mennonite church. I was at the time attending a modern Mennonite church. There was no way I was going to miss that funeral. I arranged with someone to attend. (I don't drive.) The night before the funeral it hit me: My family will be there.

 

That stopped me cold. I had not taken that into consideration. I did not want my family in my safe territory but there was nothing I could do about it except not go to the funeral. I decided not to let my family dictate what I do and don't do. I went.

 

After the service, my brother found me in the crowd, shook hands with me, and said, "So you also let yourself to be seen here?"

 

That sounds different in English than it does in German, esp. so out of context as it is on this forum. So let me explain.

 

That statement is a common one among the Old Order Mennonites regarding people who have left the church (read The Faith). They believe such people have a seriously polluted conscience and that they have to really "buck their feelings" to be "noble enough" to show up at a sacred function. I am sure he thought he was being friendly.

 

The thing that is totally distorted in the context of my brother saying that to me is that HE was out of context. HE had entered MY turf. *I* was the modern Mennonite. The funeral was at a modern Mennonite church. My brother is a horse and buggy driving Old Order Mennonite.

 

I just wanted to scream: YOU ARE ON MY TURF! WHAT RIGHT HAVE YOU TO SAY THAT TO ME?

 

My heart just turned cold. I moved away from him in the crowd.

 

I was still a Christian at that time. If they do that to me when I still profess Christianity and regularly attend church, what will they do to me when they know I have rejected the faith altogether?

 

Another thing happened while I was still more or less a Christian. Some of my sisters visited me on Boxing Day in 2005. Nothing "bad" happened. On the surface it was a pleasant day. However, after they were gone I felt like I needed to open the windows (no matter that it was a VERY cold day) to air out the place, maybe even scrub the floors and furniture. The floors are carpeted. I felt like I had to purify the place in order for it to feel safe and comfortable for me again. It was so bad that I called a friend whose life story is in some ways similar to my own. After talking with her for the best part of an hour I felt able to go on in life, more or less.

 

I repeat, if those kinds of things happened while I was outwardly a Christian, what will happen now that I am openly not a Christian?

 

Last night before I went to bed I asked myself: What will it be like being in the same room as these people who believe I am such a bad person?

 

Immediately that scene from my cousin's funeral popped up. Folks, I cannot visit my mother in the hospital. Take it or leave it. If you look at Amelia's posts on here you will see that I am not the only person who cuts off family. Sometimes we have to do it for our own sanity and emotional well-being. It is not right that I need to spend several days, or even hours, recuperating from the effects of being in the same room as these people.

 

They hate my very guts but they distort it and call it love. I do not have to be in the same room as such people. I live about twenty miles away from them and sometimes I feel like the cold black winds blow in from the northwest where they live.

 

Okay, I can't see into their hearts so I don't know for sure what their real feelings are. But I do know what impact it has on me and that I need time to recuperate after being "contaminated" with being in the same room as them. When the cold blackness gets to me I shut it out and concentrate on the people and things in my immediate surroundings. The university. The bus stop. The young people who ride the bus with me. The street where I wait.

 

The street, the bus, the campus--all swarm with people thinking about their own lives and how to get what they want out of life. They couldn't care less what I do, how I dress, or what I believe. They will ask me for directions to wherever they are going, or when the next bus is coming. I do the same with them. I have more room to breathe when packed so hard into a bus that one couldn't fall because of all the other bodies, than I do in a room with my own family. One day several years ago an OOM woman showed up on my bus. First I knew she was there was when she came to where I was sitting (bus was almost empty at that moment) and started chatting with me. Before I knew what was happening she was inviting me back to the church. My heart turned cold. I was physically unable to continue talking. I am sure this kind of thing gets interpreted as "GUILTY CONSCIENCE."

 

I cannot control them or their thoughts and gossip. However, I can control to whose presence I subject myself. I'm fifty years old. I put up with half a century of this crap. I don't have to take it anymore. Yet why am I writing all this? I guess I still have to convince myself that I have permission not to subject myself to more abuse even if it is in order to redeem myself. Yeah, that must be it. In my heart of hearts I KNOW there is no way I can redeem myself.

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Wow Ruby. I don't know if it is possible as an ex fundamentalist, to fully understand what you are dealing with in leaving the OOM. In fact, I just now learned, in this thread from you, what OOM stands for. I had been trying to figure that out, but have refused to read some areas of these forums--I'm bracing myself over them, so far.

 

Your illustration of what your brother did to you, and I use the word "did" rather than the word "said" deliberately, is evidence of the depth of their controlling nature, and lack of respect of you as an individual. It is very sad to think about you going through that moment and many others like it. It is infuriating. One day you will be so good at it though, that you will no longer draw a blank, not as much--you'll be able, every once in awhile, to stay fully present and in your own power as you stand in front of any of them--but I don't know if it will ever come without pain, these types of confrontations.

 

It's hard not to read this and feel proud of you, even though I don't know you at all. Maybe it's because I relate and am proud of myelf or maybe it's because I know how difficult it is to choose to give up one's family, and because the OOM sounds even more formidable than fundamentalism in how controlling and oppressive it is.

 

The problem in cutting off the family, is that there are always going to be funerals, weddings and births, and you have to figure out how to handle those, or decide if you even want to know and make the gestures. I now finally have a complete listing of 19 nieces and nephews' birthdays and the parents to whom they belong, which was made for me at my request by one of my nieces (whom I had not before even met) while I was visiting my family recently for a funeral. I don't know many of these children but I plan on sending them cards on the appropriate dates, but that is pretty much it. I want them to know they have an aunt whom they can turn to when they choose to leave, if and when that is necessary for them.

 

After all these years I have little in common with my siblings and my parents and who ever said we have to stay close to our family when adults in the first place? The psychological work though, it never seems to end. In every relationship I have there seems to arise some issue that comes down to either "mother" or "father" and I can't finally stop thinking of them and what happened to me in their church. It's like a grieving a death, it really is. And then, when my parents do die, I don't expect that to be a pretty thing for me.

 

Best to you. Viktoria

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Xild, thanks for this letter. I read it before but didn't know how to respond. I still don't know but I feel your post deserves acknowledgment. I like how you describe it as "did" rather than "said" because it truly is an action. I think by walking away from him and connecting with people who are more respectful of me was the right thing to do. There is no winning with these kinds of people.

 

Thanks also for sharing about your family and nieces and nephews. Sounds like you have been out longer than I have. At this point I am just trying to establish who Ruby is. Can't connect with my nieces and nephews at this point. I am sure they know I exist. The oldest ones express a desire to see me. I am not sure how to connect with them without alienating their parents (my siblings) even more. I am thinking it might be better to wait until they are adults. Right now, all except one are under-age; most are children and babies. Getting involved with them would probably mean getting involved with their parents. A few families are still decent toward me--umm, well, they were decent last time we had any interaction which was before I came out. I would like to keep it that way. Not sure how...

 

My one sister seems to have accepted me as I am, so I am in contact with family through her. I told her that I probably won't visit Mom in the hospital so it's okay not to keep me posted on all the details as they develop. Surgery keeps being postponed. She suggested I might want to know when the surgery is over and how it turned out. Yes, that was exactly how I felt about it. I just couldn't find the right words to say it. I thanked her for putting it into words.

 

I keep getting letters from my sisters and I keep throwing them out unopened. Maybe they are harmless but I don't trust the situation AT ALL. I think just because they are being nice does not mean they respect me. For example, the one letter I did open said she understands my feelings, but did she apologize? Nope!

 

That is not how equal and respectful relationships work.

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