Prove Yhwh Exists With A Contest...

[mwc]

All we want is proof YHWH, the god of the Jews and Christians, exists. It doesn't sound like too much to ask for but yet whenever we ask for it we are told things like "We are not to test God" and "God does not perform on demand."

 

Apparently these same people aren't aware of a story in their very own Bible that is very often taught to children as proof that their God, YHWH, is real while another god Ba'al is not.

 

For those who are not familiar with this story I'll post the text from the Bible in Basic English (as it is easier to read than the KJV) here and then just give a quick summary after for those who don't wish to read the entire thing:

 

1 Kings 18

17 And when he saw Elijah, Ahab said to him, Is it you, you troubler of Israel?

18 Then he said in answer, I have not been troubling Israel, but you and your family; because, turning away from the orders of the Lord, you have gone after the Baals.

19 Now send, and get Israel together before me at Mount Carmel, with the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal who get their food at Jezebel's table.

20 So Ahab sent for all the children of Israel, and got the prophets together at Mount Carmel.

 

21 And Elijah came near to all the people and said, How long will you go on balancing between two opinions? if the Lord is God, then give worship to him; but if Baal, give worship to him. And the people said not a word in answer.

22 Then Elijah said to the people, I, even I, am the only living prophet of the Lord; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men.

23 Now, let them give us two oxen; and let them take one for themselves, and have it cut up, and put it on the wood, but put no fire under it; I will get the other ox ready, and put it on the wood, and put no fire under it.

24 And do you make prayers to your god, and I will make a prayer to the Lord: and it will be clear that the one who gives an answer by fire is God. And all the people in answer said, It is well said.

25 Then Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, Take one ox for yourselves and get it ready first, for there are more of you; and make your prayers to your god, but put no fire under.

26 So they took the ox which was given them, and made it ready, crying out to Baal from morning till the middle of the day, and saying, O Baal, give ear to us. But there was no voice and no answer. And they were jumping up and down before the altar they had made.

27 And in the middle of the day, Elijah made sport of them, saying, Give louder cries, for he is a god; he may be deep in thought, or he may have gone away for some purpose, or he may be on a journey, or by chance he is sleeping and has to be made awake.

28 So they gave loud cries, cutting themselves with knives and swords, as was their way, till the blood came streaming out all over them.

29 And from the middle of the day they went on with their prayers till the time of the offering; but there was no voice, or any answer, or any who gave attention to them.

30 Then Elijah said to all the people, Come near to me; and all the people came near. And he put up again the altar of the Lord which had been broken down.

31 And Elijah took twelve stones, the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the Lord had said, Israel will be your name:

32 And with the stones he made an altar to the name of the Lord; and he made a deep drain all round the altar, great enough to take two measures of seed.

33 And he put the wood in order, and, cutting up the ox, put it on the wood. Then he said, Get four vessels full of water and put it on the burned offering and on the wood. And he said, Do it a second time, and they did it a second time;

34 And he said, Do it a third time, and they did it a third time.

35 And the water went all round the altar, till the drain was full.

36 Then at the time of the offering, Elijah the prophet came near and said, O Lord, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Israel, let it be seen this day that you are God in Israel, and that I am your servant, and that I have done all these things by your order.

37 Give me an answer, O Lord, give me an answer, so that this people may see that you are God, and that you have made their hearts come back again.

38 Then the fire of the Lord came down, burning up the offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and drinking up the water in the drain.

39 And when the people saw it, they all went down on their faces, and said, The Lord, he is God, the Lord, he is God.

40 And Elijah said to them, Take the prophets of Baal, let not one of them get away. So they took them, and Elijah made them go down to the stream Kishon, and put them to death there.

 

The story takes places during a time of a drought. Jezebel has been dispatched (and eaten by the dogs) and Elijah now needs to deal with the worship of the Baals. He gets King Ahab to get 450 priests of Baal to appear at the appointed date and time in order to prepare a sacrifice to their god. They are allowed to use whatever method(s) they choose in order to have their sacrifice consumed. During this time Elijah openly mocks them as nothing happens. At the end of their turn Elijah drenches his sacrifice and alter with water. Out of the clear sky fire reigns down and consumes only the sacrifice for YHWH proving who is the one and only living god. The priests of Baal are then executed.

 

So YHWH does participate in contests to prove that he is the one and only living God. With this in mind I propose that this contest is replicated only the followers of YHWH are on the spot this time instead of the priests of Baal. On the designated date and time a sacrifice to YHWH will be made ready. The followers of YHWH can do whatever they need to do, according to their various beliefs, in order to convince him to send down fire from the sky (according to the story) and consume only his sacrifice. The same rules apply to the followers of YHWH as did the followers of Baal (of course no man-made incendiary devices allowed).

 

Keep in mind that the followers of Baal had no say in whether they got to participate. They were ordered to take part. Their god was ordered to participate. For followers of YHWH to respond to the challenge with "We cannot ORDER our god to do anything" is the same response as the followers of Baal could have provided and yet this story is offered as absolute proof of Baal being false since he did not consume his offering on command. His priests were mocked and murdered as a result.

 

It is time that the followers of YHWH are held to their own standards. The challenge is from your own religious text as a way to "prove" a true god from a false god. However, I certainly do not wish to see you murdered when your god fails the challenge but the concession that it is not a "living" god but one more in a long line of false gods...man made gods...is all that is required.

 

Do you have enough faith in your god to replicate a contest that your god has already participated in and decisively won once and should have no problem "winning" again? Or are we all to continue saying that your god is only "hidden" god (a euphemism for "false") and doesn't do such things?

 

 

mwc

[Vixentrox]

Christians routinly fail to generate the faith of even a mustard seed or they would be performing miralces left and right. After all, a mustard seed of faith is all that is needed.

[Mythra]

What a great idea. Have christians ask Yahweh to do a demonstration. If they do it under the controlled environment provided by James Randi, they can win a million dollars (you know, to add on to the rectory)

[mwc]

Christians routinly fail to generate the faith of even a mustard seed or they would be performing miralces left and right. After all, a mustard seed of faith is all that is needed.

True, but this isn't about simply performing a miracle. This isn't some odd request that a random xian drink poison or order a mountain into the sea. This is about participating in a contest and one that YHWH has already taken part of in the past to PROVE he is the one true god...the very thing we are asking in the here and now.

 

In addition this is a story that xians themselves use to teach their own children that YHWH is a true god while Baal is a false god. If such a contest can be used to determine that a god a real or not then lets do it again for us modern wayward souls. Surely there will be no problem for YHWH to launch another well aimed fireball from the heavens to consume his rightful sacrifice just as he did about 3000 years ago?

 

The story says nothing about how this hinged on Elijah so I suppose the use of the word "faith" on my part was no the right word, however, Elijah was required as a participant so the xians would have to send representatives to pray or do whatever they need to do in order to "convince" their god to send down the fire according to the story.

 

Unlike many "requests" to the Judeo/Christian community for proof of their god I feel that this one is uniquely fair because it is the very test, from their own holy text, that was used to prove that their god was real and that another god, Baal, was false. Only now they are the ones that are on the defensive end just as the priests of the Baals were all those years ago. Are they now going to say this test is unfair? Does this mean the Baals, perhaps, aren't false after all but got an unfair test? It's time the followers of YHWH live up to their own standards.

 

mwc

[Vigile]

When Jesus was resurrected he changed the unchangeable mind of god and now we are no longer able to test him. Likewise, he did away with the law so now we can eat shellfish and wear cotton clothes, though we dare not put our penises in the wrong hole and we can only protest against the government whose authority was established by god if we think that god's appointed servants are being fair to others and as such being unfair to us. Also, because the early church needed their faith bolstered after the disappearance of their lord, the holy ghost caused them to scream and run up and down the church aisles chattering like monkeys. That was something that had a short shelf life though and those churches that still have people running up and down church aisles chattering like monkeys are obviously being deceived by the devil. A lot of other confusing stuff changed 500 years ago when Luther unearthed the "truth" from the Paul's writings that had been hidden from the great whore for more than 1000 years. It's simple really. Atheists just can't see it because they hold onto so many contradictory beliefs like evolution and stuff.

[mwc]

So, once again, I'm a jackass for wanting to hold them to their own standard?

 

Maybe so...but I still think that this is what needs to be done. I've been reading a lot of the "church fathers" writings lately and all they did was repeatedly "call out" the pagans. It just seems to me that the bible contains the "god test" and so it's time to dust it off. If the 10 Commandments (whichever 10 of the 30 they choose) are "good enough" to bother with then so is this test.

 

I will also accept having the various forms of Ba'al formally re-instated as a full-fledged co-equal God (not a form of Satan or demon but a god in his own right forming a true pantheon) with YHWH by all leaders of the various sects of YHWH in lieu of an actual contest. See? I am not unreasonable.

 

mwc

[Vigile]

So, once again, I'm a jackass for wanting to hold them to their own standard?

 

I guess there needs to be a tongue-in-cheek smilie. Sorry mwc, my tongue was firmly planted in cheek with that last post. Your points are all valid as far as I can tell.

[mwc]

I guess there needs to be a tongue-in-cheek smilie. Sorry mwc, my tongue was firmly planted in cheek with that last post. Your points are all valid as far as I can tell.

Oh, trust me, I saw it whether the smilie was there or not. No offense taken whatsoever. And I meant what I said...I probably am a jackass when it comes to some of this stuff but that's going to stop me.

 

mwc

[Mythra]

I don't suppose that there are any christians willing to put their god to this test.

 

So, I will do it for them.

 

I will risk being a martyr to prove that Yahweh is a reality.

 

I will challenge God to end my life. Within the next hour. A heart attack, brain aneurism, whatever method he chooses. If I die within the next hour, then God has successfully demonstrated his power.

 

If I'm back here posting in this thread in an hour, god is exactly what we thought. Nada.

 

C'mon God. Here's your chance.

[white_raven23]

The christians have fallen silent.

 

Maybe you should offer a free ipod.

[mwc]

The christians have fallen silent.

 

Maybe you should offer a free ipod.

 

You really think I can make this god appear to claim a free iPod? It's worth a try. So, in addition to the ox of the original contest I will also include a free iPod...for YHWH to consume with fire from heaven (I guess I'll load it with "devil" music ).

 

mwc

[Mythra]

C'mon God. Here's your chance.

 

Well, there we have it. No demonstrations from the almighty. Not even an eye tic.

 

I did cough a couple of times in the last hour, but since I've had a cold for two days, this officially counts as a pre-existing condition.

 

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[mwc]

Eh, this could be a trick of the devil. I bet Mythra's long dead.

 

mwc

[Lycorth]

That part of the Babble always bugged me as a Xian, because I knew that I couldn't get God to do anything remotely like that, even though here he was, depicted as having done just that.

 

Xians just don't read or understand their Babbles well. And when they do, their brainwashing kicks in and they makes a million excuses to try and justify why God does not do something like this today, when it would be a major boost to his fanclub.

 

Of course, most Xians would say that we wouldn't believe it if we saw it, but that just goes back to the misanthropy expressed by Jebus, who likened humanity to dumb and gullible sheep. It's just not in the Xian philosophy to expect good to come naturally from human beings.

 

And I don't expect the Xians to bite at this thread. It's easier for them to try and talk circles around people and rely on bullshit excuses, but when it comes down to brass tacks and proving their god is real, they all fail the test, each and every one.

[Poonis]

It is a comically sad episode to watch Christians try to prove god exists outside of a book.

[mwc]

That part of the Babble always bugged me as a Xian, because I knew that I couldn't get God to do anything remotely like that, even though here he was, depicted as having done just that.

 

Xians just don't read or understand their Babbles well. And when they do, their brainwashing kicks in and they makes a million excuses to try and justify why God does not do something like this today, when it would be a major boost to his fanclub.

 

Of course, most Xians would say that we wouldn't believe it if we saw it, but that just goes back to the misanthropy expressed by Jebus, who likened humanity to dumb and gullible sheep. It's just not in the Xian philosophy to expect good to come naturally from human beings.

 

And I don't expect the Xians to bite at this thread. It's easier for them to try and talk circles around people and rely on bullshit excuses, but when it comes down to brass tacks and proving their god is real, they all fail the test, each and every one.

Exactly. Everything was a one time deal or only happened a long time ago (and might as well be in a galaxy far, far away too). It will also happen again...in the future. Oh, we'll see when we're dead or when "the rapture" happens but other than that none of these events are really REAL in the sense that they matter outside the sacred book.

 

Even when faced, with a contest devised to show a real god from a fake god, they gloat how Baal is such a loser and Elijah was right to gloat but now that I want to put them in the hotseat...forget it. No way. That story has nothing to do with today's super secret post-jesus YHWH. Because they know they'd be the ones jumping around looking like idiots to OUR Elijah. We'd be laughing our asses off as nothing happened.

 

If supernatural fire reigned down and truly consumed the sacrifice and NONE of us changed our ways then SO WHAT? They lived up to their end of the deal. We'd TRULY deserve what we get in some afterlife instead of not believing some words in a book that don't add up. To say we're not going to change our minds so it's not worth putting forth the effort simply makes no sense. How lazy can they be? How arrogant to claim to know our hearts, minds and what it would take to turn us toward their god. I said the same thing as one of them. I'm sure we all did. I'm sure many believe it. I'm sure many know nothing would happen. I'm sure the excuses would be as varied as there are sects as to why this occured. In the story it didn't matter why the priests of Baal failed...they just did...the same goes for YHWH.

 

The truth is not that they maintain faith in this "god" but that they have faith in having faith. This they must maintain at all cost and this contest would dispell this delusion. To have faith in "nothing" is something we all faced and is truly one of the most frightening demons of all. Satan and Hell pale by comparison.

 

mwc

[♦ ficino ♦]

I've heard preachers talk about that Elijah story, but I don't remember any preacher adding that Elijah puts to death four hundred and fifty priests of Baal afterwards. the bible keeps showing its true colors but its apologists try to sweep that under the rug.