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Goodbye Jesus

Atheism Exercise For Christians #1


Poonis

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ExPagan,

 

According to your post you "wasn't ready to receive Jesus because frankly, I loved my sins. I didn't want to give them up. I loved going to bars and clubs and meeting new people and doing whatever I wanted.". So exactly when did you give up your "sinful" lifestyle and actually receive Jesus?

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The historical evidence clearly shows that the Bible is a reliable historical document. Since the Bible can be trusted in areas that we can check (its history), then this gives us a reason to trust it in areas that we cannot check (its claims for inspiration).[/b]

You jest? Would you like me to pick up a few Stephen King novels that talk about the city of Boston, which we all know exists, and then use that to give credibility to the story of dead pets coming to life??? How about the graves of many being opened and dead people walking around Jerusalem? What’s sauce for the goose…

 

Now for the personal experience (which is not emotional) God actually ACTING in my life.

 

Without getting into too much detail, I was in a very bad/desperate situation. I lived with my boyfriend who was very abusive (and had been for a very long time), he took my car so I had no transportation, he tried to get me fired, he didn't pay any bills nor allow me to and the gas was turned off in the winter (I got really sick), he tried to keep me captive basically in that house. If I tried to leave, I really couldn't because there was no bus service - I really was trapped.

 

I was on the brink of suicide (again) because I hated my 'boyfriend', I hated my life and I was staring at the knife in my hand. I cried out to God something like 'if you're real, show me, I need to get out of here, I need a car, a job so I can get a car and an apartment and Ijust have to get out of here'. Afterwards, I calmed down and did not do anything with the knife. While I was 'emotional', that is not the "proof" I offer because it is not proof. The "proof" came after. I'd say things started changing pretty much immediately. To make this brief (kind of), I got out of there, got a really good job which enabled me to buy a car (of which I still have) and I was out of that situation. I took MY car which he stole and signed the title over to the police when they escorted me to get my things. After all that, I started reading the Bible and shortly received Jesus as my Lord and Savior. That was five years ago and He has shown and taught me many things since then. Amazing!

 

God will not reveal Himself to someone who does not believe in Him, who taunts Him, who makes fun of Him, who calls Him names, who puts Him to silly tests, who mocks Him. He will leave you in your unbelief. But if you come to Him with a sincere heart, (and He will know if it's sincere), He will reveal Himself to you and answer you. No one on this board can convince you of Him except Him.

Here’s what I see. It’s very human, not divine. You were raised as a PK, rebelled against him and became a Pagan, not out of a personal desire to grow as an individual, but to define yourself as independent from your father. You allowed yourself to get into an abusive relationship.

 

Admirably you had a real survival instinct. You reached a point of a deeply emotional life-crisis. You called out for help as an act of dedication to yourself – to change things! That had a cathartic impact on you and all the good that happened subsequent to this commitment to yourself were realized through a change in your perspective. You were looking to build, not destroy. Your attitude is what changed things, not something external to you. You are the God you turned to. We are God.

 

Not surprisingly you went back to your programming growing up as a Christian. You turned to a language you knew how to speak from the training at home. However, this time it isn’t being a Christian because of Dad. You choose it yourself… or did you?

 

I will contend that this sort of thing is a common as air. This is not proof of God. This is being human. Humans create God in the image we wish to be. We serve him so he can serve us. We are God’s creators, so God can then help us.

 

BTW, this entire conversion was come to through emotional crisis. You didn't come to it by being happy with your life and being pursuaded by the logic of it. You needed something emotionally, and used logic to justify it to yourself. This way it was your choice to be a Christian, and not because you were raised to be one. Correct?

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You wanted to know how I came to believe in God if not by emotion?

 

Some scholars once said...

 

Then, archaeology proved otherwise...

 

Critics used to say...

 

Then archaeologists discovered...

 

Archaeological and linguistic evidence...

 

For the New Testament, Dr. G.R. Habermas points...

 

Liberal scholars...

 

The historical evidence clearly shows...

 

So if I was honest with myself, I had to admit that there was no proof in other religions...

ExPagan,

With all the evidence and persuasion that you offer, are you then able to show me your god?

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Ah man Antlerman you ruined it for me. I wanted to see if ExPagan could come up with it on her own by just asking a couple of questions.

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Your question is flawed to begin with because you are comparing the spiritual with the worldly, the tangible with the intangible, infinite with the finite. You are attempting to assess something spiritual by using scientific or logical, finite means and you simply cannot do that and get an accurate answer. It’s like trying to prove love exists using a thermometer.

That is exactly right and the reason why one should never, ever say they have the answer and can know the mind of God.

 

So everytime you answer this question with an explanation, your answer is flawed.

 

Dhampir nails it here:

 

Of course your experiences are real, what's in question here is what you think is the reason you had those experiences. You can tell me all day that the christian god is the source of your new life or whatever, but you are going to have to show me something that the members of every other religion cannot when they say exactly what you just told me. What makes your feelings more real then theirs?
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Your question is flawed to begin with because you are comparing the spiritual with the worldly, the tangible with the intangible, infinite with the finite. You are attempting to assess something spiritual by using scientific or logical, finite means and you simply cannot do that and get an accurate answer. It’s like trying to prove love exists using a thermometer.

That is exactly right and the reason why one should never, ever say they have the answer and can know the mind of God.

 

So everytime you answer this question with an explanation, your answer is flawed.

 

How is my simple yes-or-no question, "can you show me your god", flawed?

 

why shouldn't anyone ever answer the question? Is it because they are unable to, afraid, or another reason?

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Your question is flawed to begin with because you are comparing the spiritual with the worldly, the tangible with the intangible, infinite with the finite. You are attempting to assess something spiritual by using scientific or logical, finite means and you simply cannot do that and get an accurate answer. It's like trying to prove love exists using a thermometer.

That is exactly right and the reason why one should never, ever say they have the answer and can know the mind of God.

 

So everytime you answer this question with an explanation, your answer is flawed.

 

How is my simple yes-or-no question, "can you show me your god", flawed?

 

why shouldn't anyone ever answer the question? Is it because they are unable to, afraid, or another reason?

No Poonis, your question isn't flawed, a answer from the standpoint of this person's understanding is flawed (in this instance). What the poster needed to say is, no...I cannot show you my God, which she basically did. But the problem is is that she offers tons of explanation as to what God is like elsewhere. She should be able to offer evidence. Maybe I should have said a yes answer is flawed.

 

I apologize for that. I was telling this poster that I agreed with her explanation that proof cannot be offered. I don't agree that the question is flawed because if she actually believes that God resembles a person and has made it into some type of idol, then she should be able to show you evidence. She claims to know God but yet she answers as if she has no idea.

 

She is going both ways here and I was trying to get her to see that she can't just claim God can't be proven and then go around with a certain understanding of what God is in her brain. She can't have it both ways especially when she claims to know the mind of God. There are things that we can know and there are things that we cannot know, or comprehend, IMO. She claims to know the unknowable and then denies that it can be proven.

 

So, if she has no idea (like all of us), but yet claims to have an idea, when she attempts to answer it, the answer will be flawed. Every yes answer will be flawed and she know this. That is why she answered the way she did. I think we have seen tons of people try to offer evidence of God and be shot down because of its flaws. That is what I meant.

 

You are absolutely correct. If anyone has any idea of what God is like, then they should be able to show you why they have this understanding. It should be something that is available to everyone outside the religion also. It wouldn't have to come from a book, which we know is where she gets her understanding. That is why I used Dhampir's post to highlight that point.

 

Once, again...I apologize.

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God will not reveal Himself to someone who does not believe in Him, who taunts Him, who makes fun of Him, who calls Him names, who puts Him to silly tests, who mocks Him. He will leave you in your unbelief. But if you come to Him with a sincere heart, (and He will know if it's sincere), He will reveal Himself to you and answer you. No one on this board can convince you of Him except Him.

 

What nonsense. If your god wants worshippers, and is all-powerful and all-loving and all-knowing, he should show up. He would know that humans need to see things, he would be powerful enough to do so (and not be limited by someone's lack of faith), and would love us too much to refuse to make appearances. After all, it's for the good of our souls, right?

 

Or is your god such a raving egomaniac, he would rather sit on his heavenly ass and expect us to crawl to him like worms, rather than do things that would serve to give him glory and save our souls in the process? If he won't do away with sin and the devil (as a god with his characteristics would do, if he existed), then surely he would want to make appearances to us and thereby facilitate belief.

 

Emotionalism and bullshit excuses don't make a god real. Your god doesn't show up because he doesn't exist, or if he does exist, he either isn't powerful enough to show up (or do away with evil), or is so hateful and selfish that he doesn't care to and doesn't really give a rat's ass about our souls.

 

Logic dictates this god does not exist. Occam's Razor slits the wrist of another myth.

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You are absolutely correct. If anyone has any idea of what God is like, then they should be able to show you why they have this understanding.

 

I had a chat with ALICE once, a rudimentary conversational AI. In the process of "talking" the subject of god inevitably arose. ALICE believed in god. Since seeing is believing (unless you happen to be hallucinating at the time), I figured surely ALICE has seen god. So, I decided to ask ALICE what god looked like, and it told me, "He looks like an action figure." :HaHa:

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I had a chat with ALICE once, a rudimentary conversational AI. In the process of "talking" the subject of god inevitably arose. ALICE believed in god. Since seeing is believing (unless you happen to be hallucinating at the time), I figured surely ALICE has seen god. So, I decided to ask ALICE what god looked like, and it told me, "He looks like an action figure."
That's fun for a minute. I just tried it. I asked if it minded if I tried to trip it up. And I did, and it reacted like it was offended. Pretty cool.

 

Okay, back on topic now.

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You are absolutely correct. If anyone has any idea of what God is like, then they should be able to show you why they have this understanding.

 

I had a chat with ALICE once, a rudimentary conversational AI. In the process of "talking" the subject of god inevitably arose. ALICE believed in god. Since seeing is believing (unless you happen to be hallucinating at the time), I figured surely ALICE has seen god. So, I decided to ask ALICE what god looked like, and it told me, "He looks like an action figure." :HaHa:

Oh...that's cool. I may have to go play with ALICE!

 

That was fun! But humans have a long way to go with AI! ;)

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Ex Pagan you wrote:

God will not reveal Himself to someone who does not believe in Him, who taunts Him, who makes fun of Him, who calls Him names, who puts Him to silly tests, who mocks Him. He will leave you in your unbelief. But if you come to Him with a sincere heart, (and He will know if it's sincere), He will reveal Himself to you and answer you. No one on this board can convince you of Him except Him.
But was it a silly test when you said to God:

 

something like 'if you're real, show me, I need to get out of here, I need a car, a job so I can get a car and an apartment and Ijust have to get out of here'.

 

You think?

 

Honey, when they say the apple doesn’t fall from the tree they are usually talking about the children of a person. I would say this to your father, about you. Apparently you are a walking talking doll made in his image—I can recognize someone regurgitating Bible blather from a mile away and that’s all your doing. It sounds to me like your “testimony” comes straight from the edited pages of Evangelism Explosion, where the head instructor takes a red pen to your litany until you get it just right, so you can then use it to convert unwitting victims for Jesus.

 

But it’s not quite right, it’s still kind of transparent, and something about how even when you were a "pagan" you were using magic to manipulate people--not many people do manipulate energy in negative ways in those religions--and especially for those of us in this forum who have been in churches such as you are in, we can see you (yoo whooo). Human beings should not be toyed with, not toward any end, however good someone is telling you it is. Especially if they are weak and hurting. In fact I think there is a warning in the Bible about this somewhere. The trick is to always always always be authentic. The moment you sense you're not being real, just stop talking, just stop. It will take awhile but soon you'll figure out you are immersed in a big giant cult of baloney which is Fundamentalism. There's not one thing sincere or authentic about it. It's based upon lies.

 

So you might want to save your big “Jesus saved me from a life of sin in the pagan religion” for those people who are weak and suffering and on your church steps looking for that certain something, that emotional thing that your church offers. Why do you think they play Just as I am, at the end of every church service? Just when they want people to come down the aisle? That’s to grab people on an emotional level. Don’t kid us, kid. We’re smarter than that. This kind of psychodrama is enacted in other cults, including satanic rituals (although they don't take themselves seriously), so logic has little if anything to do with anything you are talking about, including the Bible and what you believe is its history. Do a little reading on the subject, at least, and that would be amazing.

 

Also, by the way, that stuff you have in bold face type. Where is that from because certainly it’s not your writing? This isn’t an academic environment but it certainly is customary that when you cite a source you cite it, give the url so we know where to look to validate it so we can check up and make sure it’s not a load of hogwash you found on crazypeople.com.

 

Anterman is much too kind, I think, but I think he’s closest to showing you how everything you just posted is based on emotion, everything. There is not one whit of a sentiment that is not emotionally based. Even your logic is flailing around, desperately trying to show us how the Bible is the ONLY true, reliable thing in our body of knowledge, even in this age of the 21st century. Do you think us all idiots? If you think that crap is even close to being academically sound you are sadly mistaken, emphasis on the word, “sad.”

 

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, but I am all emotionally twitterpated right now, so someone more logically oriented should take over...

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