Kurari Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 I forgot where I saw it, but I saw someone recently in another discussion elsewhere about Fred Phelps and Westboro Bapist in spite of all their vitrol, is actually are following the Bible written God better than most Christians. I often see Christians saying their god is a god of love and forgiveness, but in the Bible shows distinctly otherwise. Do you think that's true? Nasty bunch of fundy nutbags as they are, is Westboro Baptist following the written letter pretty closely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 I think so. They are just reflecting the hatreds and prejudices inherent in their own religion. I was much like they were, once - just as hateful, just as spiteful, and I felt just as justified as Westboro Baptist does because I believed I had a big, bad god behind me. It's what makes them all the more insidious, that they fully accept and believe in all the hatreds of their religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 I forgot where I saw it, but I saw someone recently in another discussion elsewhere about Fred Phelps and Westboro Bapist in spite of all their vitrol, is actually are following the Bible written God better than most Christians. I often see Christians saying their god is a god of love and forgiveness, but in the Bible shows distinctly otherwise. Do you think that's true? Nasty bunch of fundy nutbags as they are, is Westboro Baptist following the written letter pretty closely? Your avatar, which is quite a good one, explains much about the Westboro Baptist Church. They are very good Levitical Christians, no doubt. But I don't think Leviticus, at least not when literally interpreted, has much to do with the Way of Jesus. Seems to me. The Christian community needs to undergo a very thorough re-evaluation of the Bible: what is meant, what it means, how it was applied, how it is to be applied, etc. -CC in MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poonis Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 Your avatar, which is quite a good one, explains much about the Westboro Baptist Church. They are very good Levitical Christians, no doubt. But I don't think Leviticus, at least not when literally interpreted, has much to do with the Way of Jesus. Seems to me. The Christian community needs to undergo a very thorough re-evaluation of the Bible: what is meant, what it means, how it was applied, how it is to be applied, etc. Yes, ignore the bad parts of the Good Book, and extol the parts that are still useful in subverting human reason and preventing apostasy while maintaining the extortion of the poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 You can say that any books of the Babble which you find unpleasant are not what your god intended to be part of the "Xian Way" but the fact remains; if the Babble contains revealed messages from a god, then it logically follows that it says just what that god wants it to say. Otherwise, why have extraneous stuff there? It wouldn't make any sense. I agree that Xian need to start re-evaluating the Babble. That will lead to either more liberalized and relatively harmless Xian sects taking over the old as well as wholesale deconversions altogether. Either way, the fewer people who believe the Babble literally, the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 Your avatar, which is quite a good one, explains much about the Westboro Baptist Church. They are very good Levitical Christians, no doubt. But I don't think Leviticus, at least not when literally interpreted, has much to do with the Way of Jesus. Seems to me. The Christian community needs to undergo a very thorough re-evaluation of the Bible: what is meant, what it means, how it was applied, how it is to be applied, etc. Yes, ignore the bad parts of the Good Book, and extol the parts that are still useful in subverting human reason and preventing apostasy while maintaining the extortion of the poor. Gosh, I wouldn't support subverting human reason or preventing apostasy or extorting the poor and I know there are millions of Christians would would not support these things either. What I mean is using the Bible as Martin Luther King did: for justice, peace, righteousness, community. Today's his day. Read his Letter for Birmingham Jail here to see how beautifully the Bible can be used for good. -CC in MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 You can say that any books of the Babble which you find unpleasant are not what your god intended to be part of the "Xian Way" but the fact remains; if the Babble contains revealed messages from a god, then it logically follows that it says just what that god wants it to say. Otherwise, why have extraneous stuff there? It wouldn't make any sense. I agree that Xian need to start re-evaluating the Babble. That will lead to either more liberalized and relatively harmless Xian sects taking over the old as well as wholesale deconversions altogether. Either way, the fewer people who believe the Babble literally, the better. The first re-evaluation that needs to occur is this: Is the Bible dictated by God? To me that's nonsense and destructive. The Bible is a collection of writings by those seeking to know God. We can learn much from it. But like any collection it's uneven, one must carefully weight the claims. -CC in MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YDOAPS Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 I forgot where I saw it, but I saw someone recently in another discussion elsewhere about Fred Phelps and Westboro Bapist in spite of all their vitrol, is actually are following the Bible written God better than most Christians. I often see Christians saying their god is a god of love and forgiveness, but in the Bible shows distinctly otherwise. Do you think that's true? Nasty bunch of fundy nutbags as they are, is Westboro Baptist following the written letter pretty closely? Your avatar, which is quite a good one, explains much about the Westboro Baptist Church. They are very good Levitical Christians, no doubt. But I don't think Leviticus, at least not when literally interpreted, has much to do with the Way of Jesus. Seems to me. Then you aren't listening closely enough to Jesus. In matthew 5:17-19 Jesus very explicitly states that we are to follow the letter of the Law until it is fulfilled when heaven and earth pass away. The Christian community needs to undergo a very thorough re-evaluation of the Bible: what is meant, what it means, how it was applied, how it is to be applied, etc. -CC in MA They do, but not in the way in which you are thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartP Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 Then you aren't listening closely enough to Jesus. In matthew 5:17-19 Jesus very explicitly states that we are to follow the letter of the Law until it is fulfilled when heaven and earth pass away. I think currentchristian may have gone thru this a few times already. Just as christians have stereotyped ideas of what an atheist is, we may have stereotyped ideas of what a christian is. currentchristian is not your "bible is the inerrant and literal word of god" type fundie christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YDOAPS Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 Then you aren't listening closely enough to Jesus. In matthew 5:17-19 Jesus very explicitly states that we are to follow the letter of the Law until it is fulfilled when heaven and earth pass away. I think currentchristian may have gone thru this a few times already. Just as christians have stereotyped ideas of what an atheist is, we may have stereotyped ideas of what a christian is. currentchristian is not your "bible is the inerrant and literal word of god" type fundie christian. I didn't say he/she was. I was pointing out what Jesus said. currentchristian was talking about Jesus. Jesus said to follow the letter of the Law, and therefore, contrary to what currentchristian thinks, it IS the way of Jesus. It has nothing to do with fundamentalism, but has to do with his/her post being bollocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 Good responses, CC. Again, if more Xians were like you, the world would be a better place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. XC Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 When I first saw Westboro Baptist Church on YouTube, I thought they were an extreme version of Landover Baptist Church. Sadly, that appears not to be the case, but they might as well be (well, from my point of view as an ex-Christian)! They certainly did a good job with dealing with the "God loves everyone" spin. It just seems absurd to me that the human hating God of the Old Testament is the same as the human loving Jesus. Thank the trinity doctrine for that one. Even without the trinity doctrine, just being a part of the same divinity seems to make it look like God is bipolar (my apologies to those who are bipolar). I think that the views of Westboro Baptist Church are more scripturally sound than those who maintain that God loves everyone. It is interesting that currentchristian suggests, as a Christian, that the bible is not the accurate word of God. There is a problem that this view creates for Christianity though. If it is not the accurate word of God, then how do you know what to keep and what to throw out? It seems to me that throwing out parts of the bible that you do not like creates a kind of New Age Christianity. No absolute authority, anything goes, wide open for interpretation, etc, basically introducing a way of thinking that is completely foreign to traditional Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 It is interesting that currentchristian suggests, as a Christian, that the bible is not the accurate word of God. There is a problem that this view creates for Christianity though. If it is not the accurate word of God, then how do you know what to keep and what to throw out? It seems to me that throwing out parts of the bible that you do not like creates a kind of New Age Christianity. No absolute authority, anything goes, wide open for interpretation, etc, basically introducing a way of thinking that is completely foreign to traditional Christianity. How can a book be "the word of God"? A book may contain "words of God," but it cannot be "the word of God." The Bible is such a book, IMO. It contains words of God and, of course, words of Jesus, but also words of Moses and words of David and words of Paul and words of hundreds of others. In interpreting the Bible, some might keep one thing that others throw out. I think that's okay. In fact, that is how it is now. Each group highlights what seems most important to them. We must look to our conscience and (for Christians) the spirit to guide us along the path that is right for us at any given time and guide us to a positive and beneficial relationship with the Bible and all other books. -CC in MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qadeshet Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 When I first saw Westboro Baptist Church on YouTube, I thought they were an extreme version of Landover Baptist Church. Sadly, that appears not to be the case, but they might as well be (well, from my point of view as an ex-Christian)! Just so we're all on the same page, Landover Baptist is pure satire. It is not a real church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. XC Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 When I first saw Westboro Baptist Church on YouTube, I thought they were an extreme version of Landover Baptist Church. Sadly, that appears not to be the case, but they might as well be (well, from my point of view as an ex-Christian)! Just so we're all on the same page, Landover Baptist is pure satire. It is not a real church. Yes, that is what I meant to imply. To put it more clearly: I had thought that Westboro Baptist Church was a satire that is more extreme than Landover Baptist Church. I was disappointed to learn that Westboro Baptist Church was not a satire, although it would make a great satire if there were only a very small amount of humor added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. XC Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 It is interesting that currentchristian suggests, as a Christian, that the bible is not the accurate word of God. There is a problem that this view creates for Christianity though. If it is not the accurate word of God, then how do you know what to keep and what to throw out? It seems to me that throwing out parts of the bible that you do not like creates a kind of New Age Christianity. No absolute authority, anything goes, wide open for interpretation, etc, basically introducing a way of thinking that is completely foreign to traditional Christianity. How can a book be "the word of God"? A book may contain "words of God," but it cannot be "the word of God." The Bible is such a book, IMO. It contains words of God and, of course, words of Jesus, but also words of Moses and words of David and words of Paul and words of hundreds of others. I agree that it is silly to think that the bible is the "word of God" and find that calling it a book that contains words of God to be a step in the right direction. Your statement tells me that you are much more rational and wise than most other Christians. Christians use the process of non-thinking which they call faith to justify the belief that the bible can be the "word of God." It is good to see that you did not fall for that. I have heard the "inspired word of God" argument that God inspired the writing of the bible, but because He did not have a direct authorship of it, it cannot be taken as authoritative. Although those same Christians often do not teach that the bible is not authoritative often enough, which gives Christian organizations such as Westboro Baptist Church a greater ability to convert people to their view, which as you have pointed out, creates a problem for Christianity. Even though I do not accept your beliefs, I am glad to see you are at least injecting an amount of reason into that which is most unreasonable. In interpreting the Bible, some might keep one thing that others throw out. I think that's okay. In fact, that is how it is now. Each group highlights what seems most important to them. We must look to our conscience and (for Christians) the spirit to guide us along the path that is right for us at any given time and guide us to a positive and beneficial relationship with the Bible and all other books. I made your words that I wanted to focus on as bold. I realize that focusing on just them is to take what you said out of context, but I just wanted to highlight an idea which is mostly foreign to traditional Christianity. What I made bold is a very New Age like idea: for individuals to have personal feelings that change their beliefs with new data/understanding to guide them on their spiritual journey. Not that I disagree with that. I find that individuals who are curious about being spiritual and use modern morality and understanding to make themselves into peaceful and positive people to be very refreshing. The main part that I find weird is that you stick to Christianity or calling yourself a Christian. I believe that the Jesus as a myth position has a great deal of evidence, more so than any theory that supports that the Jesus of the gospels was a real person. I personally would not rest my faith on a Jesus as a person with so much evidence against it. It seems that if your faith is so flexible, it would take that data into account. The bible cannot contain the words of Jesus if he never existed. However, I do think that taking the gospel accounts as allegorical literature to be interpreted with modern morality is a nice idea and I would welcome seeing that replace existing Christianity. I believe that the gospel accounts were written as allegorical literature and were understood as such until later on in Christianity. There is some spiritual wisdom in the bible, but good wisdom has to be sought among a bunch of not so nice stuff and why limit yourself to the Christian bible as authority (as Christians do) if spirit is guiding you? It would seem to me that once you start accepting non-biblical sources, you are no longer a Christian, in the proper sense. At the very least, you would need a new title to distinguish yourself from the more literal interpretation (which is often assumed when someone says Christian). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 Excellent points, Mr. XC. Purely from the standpoint of history, I find Jesus to be a real person and I find the gospels acceptable biographical sketches of his life, with the miracles thrown out. From the standpoint of faith, I also accept as real the miracles and the resurrection. It happened, to my mind/spirit. These things happened and I am happy that they did. This is why I am Christan. (I know most everyone here sees this differently, and I have no desire whatsoever to convince anyone otherwise.) But, I also find much inspiration in other religions, other so-called holy books, and in art, poetry, music, etc. If God is "all in all," then we can be inspired looking at a tree, watching a movie, conversing with friends. I don't limit the ways in which God may interact with our consciences and spirits. Godforbid we can only converse with God on Sunday mornings between 11:00 and noon. Since I haven't attended church in two decades, I'd miss out on the entire conversation. -CC in MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 CC would be burning at the stake with the rest of us heathens for his heresies had the Christian church not evloved in the last few hundred years. I think the majority of mainstream Christians today would belive him to be in some sort cult, certainly not a TRUE Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 I think Westboro Baptist Church are great. By demonstrating the only possible coherent conclusion of buying into organised religion, they really make people think. I hope that they turn more people away from taking biblegod seriously by showing that he is one of the most evil characters in the history of fiction. I saw Shirley Phelps on Fox News and it was perhaps the first and only time I've ever seen a Fox News presenter argue against close-minded stupidity. Even the mainstrem fundamentalist idiots disagree with them. They really bring out the best in people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 CC would be burning at the stake with the rest of us heathens for his heresies had the Christian church not evloved in the last few hundred years. I think the majority of mainstream Christians today would belive him to be in some sort cult, certainly not a TRUE Christian. Yep, we'd all go down together -- if this were Medieval Europe. I wrote a paper back in grad school on the fate of those discovered behaving "homosexually" at the time of the Spanish Inquisition. Not a pretty picture. So I'd get it for that, too. (The Inquisitors kept great records, by the way, just like the Nazis.) -CC in MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 From the standpoint of faith, I also accept as real the miracles and the resurrection. It happened, to my mind/spirit. These things happened and I am happy that they did. This is why I am Christan. Hi CC, The second part of your sentence doesn't rely on the first part being true. They are true as an individual experience, but they don't have to be true historically. I love to see you understand that it is a psychological experience. That's what the symblols of mythology are all about! One can still be a Christian without holding to historically accurate occurances. The symbols are there in every higher religion. IMO, one is more of a Christian if they understand that. Then you don't get one's faith relying on historical happenings and you don't get people that reject it completely when it's understood in this context. It's seen for what it is and can be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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