My Turn :)

[Reach]

I guess my next questions would be--- what was the main or central reason you walked away?

Why did you leave Christianity?

 

What made you an ExChristian?

 

TAP, surely you didn't miss threads with titles such as these.

[Totallyatpeace]

...........It's true tat TAP could have easily found out but it these questions probably help her get order to all what's said in other forum.

I thought I'd see some proof of Bible truth (The bible has a lot of true things too) and this is very different from what I expected but there might be a purpose to this you do not yet know.

 

(I now deserved some newbie bashing)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

It answered a huge question for me.

 

Thanks for your answers.

[Jaded]

I was born and raised Catholic. I was baptised and confirmed which is what's required for membership and salvation. I was pretty serious about it and felt I was being called to the priesthood while I was in a parochial jr high school. I was still serious about it in high school, but lost the feeling of being called to the priesthood.

 

At 25 I met someone who was a Christian Scientist and felt that they had the answers and had proof that they were right. I got pretty into that until I realized that allot of them were merely hiding their problems rather than having true healings. They do allot of bible study, but the church tells you what to read and how to interpret it. They require a willingness to rely on God for salvation, but it is more of a salvation from the problems of the world as they believed that the lake of fire destroyed the "error" in your life and was not what is commonly reffered to as hell.

 

When I realized I wasn't able to heal effectively and saw allot of hidden problems around me I turned to the bible and started reading. I ended up feeling that CS relied to heavily on selected passages of the bible and interpretations of other parts. I left for a non denominaitonal, more biblical church.

 

I still feel bad about having been involved in CS. There are still so many that are slowly dieing in it who still believe in spite of what they see. Very sad.

 

I stayed non denominational for about a year. I needed to believe in the bible and accept Jesus as a personal saviour to be saved. I kept turning to the bible for answers and very rarely found them. I read the bible again and came to the conclusion that it really did not constitute proof on it's own.

 

I guess now I am somewhat on the fence as far as belief goes. I would still like to believe but have a somewhat higher standard of proof than most who believe. I have seen allot of "evidence" that can easily be explained away and many people attributing everyday events to God. Evidence, or I guess I should say interpretation of evidence, has led me more to a lack of belief at this point.

 

I forget who said it, but I remember a quote I once read "I don't want to believe of disbelieve, I want to know the truth." That kinda says it all.

[quicksand]

Wow Quick, Serbian Orthodox!  I don't hear that often.  We're part Serbian/Yugoslavian as well...my mom and uncles were baptized Seriban Orthodox.  They had it shoved down their throats their whole lives by my grandparents (who later become Jehovah's Witnesses  )  That's why mom never had us kids baptized anything; she left it up to us to decide what was best.  Anyways, carry on!

 

JP

The Serbs give you a full dunk in the cistern when they Baptise you. The Greeks, I think do as well. It's funny, my second time back in college, when I would meet a Greek girl they would instantly "fall-in love" with me. There is this strange cultural bond between the two cultures, and I think its due to autocephalous nature of each's religion. I don't really understand it though, but it does exist. My grandma always is trying to get me to hook up with a nice Greek girl. Don't you like Greek Girls? They have such beautiful skin." te'hee!

 

But you're right JP, it is rather unusual to be of the an eastern orthodox origin - south-Slav (yugo) origin that is. In some ways I really find it very cool because I do have an ethnic origin that's not simply "white." LOL.

 

So it is always neat for me to meet another person too. I wonder if we're related? Serbia is a pretty small place and my great-grandfather (Markovic, or perhaps Charmarkovic - we're not sure) on my mom's side was rather nefarious. LOL.

[Reach]

I forget who said it, but I remember a quote I once read "I don't want to believe or disbelieve, I want to know the truth."  That kinda says it all.

TexasFreethinker knows who said that. That was part of his sigline for over a year.

[Vigile]

But you're right JP, it is rather unusual to be of the an eastern orthodox origin - south-Slav (yugo) origin that is. In some ways I really find it very cool because I do have an ethnic origin that's not simply "white." LOL.

 

 

 

I'm the godfather to a young girl baptized in a Russian Orthodox church. Does that count? Maybe not, I was already an atheist at the time of the ceremony.

 

Interesting ceremony. I was ready to rescue the poor girl though. She was screaming bloody murder when they dunked her in the silver cistern. I can only imagine the lasting psychological trauma from that event. With a protestant background the whole ceremony was rather alien to me, but the church had a peaceful aura to it.

[Thurisaz]

I guess my next questions would be--- what was the main or central reason you walked away?

Good idea to continue the thread like that.

 

As for me, pretty simple and boring - my very first contact with the "scripture" of Asatru gave me the feeling, and even more, the conviction that there is something out there bigger than us all. Something the babble never managed to do.

My fury started to grow only after I innocently stumbled into a christian fundie newsgroup on usenet and saw the dragon of hate and bigotry jumping at me.

[quicksand]

Don't forget all of the Germans.

 

Was that the church that usually holds a yearly festival and had so many problems last year? I remember going to one a long time ago for a few years on the south side, I think it was; damned nice pastries.

Not sure what you mean about all the Germans?

 

Yeah, St. Sava does hold a festival every year and is off of 51st and Oklahoma. I used to go long after we left t and than became Lutherans. I am not sure of what problems they were having, I moved to Chicago in 2000 and didn't move back here til Oct '04.

 

A funny side note about St. Sava is that back in the day (I don't remember when and how many years ago), St. Sava was the only Serb church in Milwaukee but because of some difference in theology (I think) a group split off and started Saint George's.

 

I am going to take my Grandma there this year to the festival. She's pretty close to her roots and used to take the train down to Chicago because the Serb bars were more fun than the Milwaukee ones!

[quicksand]

I'm the godfather to a young girl baptized in a Russian Orthodox church.  Does that count?  Maybe not, I was already an atheist at the time of the ceremony.

 

Interesting ceremony.  I was ready to rescue the poor girl though.  She was screaming bloody murder when they dunked her in the silver cistern.  I can only imagine the lasting psychological trauma from that event.  With a protestant background the whole ceremony was rather alien to me, but the church had a peaceful aura to it.

It's funny, but I remember my brother being baptised still. I was 4? I can't remember my age, but I still remember my brother being dunked.

 

I think its the incense that makes those churches so peaceful like. That stuff is sooo hypnotic and the light is always kept low and creating a mysterious-like environment.

 

It's odd for me to talk about this stuff, Vigile_del_fuoco1, cause it is something I rarely reflect on. Those were good times mostly, being a kid of course, so when I do, I rarely have a bad word to say when discussing my pre-Lutheran days.

 

Btw, why the word "god-father" anyway? I have a "Koom" (or is Ku'm?). I had a fundy friend of a friend that thought it was "blaspheme".

[Cerise]

It answered a huge question for me.

 

Thanks for your answers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am confused. What was the huge question if not the questions you already asked? Why not just ask us the huge question directly?

[Lilith]

What denomination of the Christian Faith were you part of?

I was saved in a Four Square Church. I attended 4square, Presbyterian, Non-denom, et al while a born-again. I fell into Word of Faith teaching after marrying my second (current) husband.

 

Before that, I attended a Lutheran (born and raised) church.

 

And what did they teach you was the requirement of becoming a Christian?[/b]

Tap

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Accept Jesus into your heart (confess Jesus as Lord and Savior) and repent (change) from 'sin'

[- AUB -]

I was C of E, you had to at least be an agnostic.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

TexasFreethinker knows who said that. That was part of his sigline for over a year.

Still is.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

We've been asked not to post in the thread Bruce just started, but TAP posted something there that I want to respond to so I'll do so here since the threads are related...

 

I don't believe I have ever seen a thread with a list of faith backgrounds here and what exactly their faith taught regarding salvation as long as I've been here. The Christians I have surrounded myself with would claim that all of you were in bad churches, wrong doctrines, never understood the scriptures and on and on. I can clearly see by the responses in the thread, that is far from the truth. Almost all were as deeply committed as the minister down the street. So if you think the questions were harmful, think again. The thread will leave the Christian wondering how in the world can this be? And to the weak Christian, it will plant seeds of doubt. (scary thought for me since I started the thread)

 

I think that TAP's question was a valid one. I may have seen a similar thread in one of the "lost" forums, but I don't think I've seen one lately that dealt with the requirements for salvation that each of us were laboring under as christians.

 

I got something out of the responses and I'm glad TAP asked.

 

I also agree with Cerise - I'd like to know the huge question that this answered for TAP - was it the one mentioned in the other thread about whether all of us came from bad churches/wrong doctrines/never understanding the scriptures"?

[Cerise]

I suspect this thread is one of those threads made by Christians in which they read with bias, and confirm what they already think they know about those who leave the faith.  You know, "they never really heard the salvation message."  "they were never saved to begin with"  "they left due to bitterness"  "they were rebelling"...etc.  Either Loren or Reach said it (I don't have alot of time to spend on this thread, just skimming) but these are answers that anyone here would know the answer to.

 

I think TAP is resisting her own urges to deconvert.  Or she is setting the scene to witness.  LOL!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't think that's it Madame. TAP's never seen the need to convert us so far...why would she suddenly start now?

 

All the same, I did read what TAP said in the other thread, about her reasons for being here, and I kind of think it's a lost cause. Any Christian reading the reasons why we deconverted only has to provide a single excuse as to why it was a fluke, or why the same could never happen to them in order to leave off thinking about it. They'll always be able to say "well that was them but this is me" and leave it at that. It all just another leaf in the salad bar.

 

To truly create doubt, or provide a questioning attitude you need more than someone else's personal experience. Just like to truly create faith you need more than someone else's personal experience.

 

Reading about where we were and why we left isn't likely to make anybody doubt. It might, however, make others who have left feel a little less alone in the world. And that's truly what this website is about.

[nightflight]

I left because I never felt "saved". My whole experience was characterized by fear. Leaving was sanity.

[Totallyatpeace]

I also agree with Cerise - I'd like to know the huge question that this answered for TAP - was it the one mentioned in the other thread about whether all of us came from bad churches/wrong doctrines/never understanding the scriptures"?

 

I have read thread after thread on a Christian Forum about how there is no possible way for somebody to be an Ex-Christian. They were either never Christians to begin with or are still Christians. From that you can go into the "You will know them by their fruit" or "If one truly knows Christ they will never walk away" and much, much more.

 

After reading your responses on this thread, I am convinced that those opinions are wrong. The problem is that I'm not sure what to do with that information because it leads me to many more questions.

 

I do believe my questions are valid and this web site does invite Christians to participate. If the question was not a good one, I'm sure the 94 other responses out of 97 would have said the same thing that Loren, Reach and Bruce said. However, that wasn't the case. It really doesn't matter, because I'm not here to score brownie points with anyone.

 

I think the problem is that you are so use to people having an agenda that an honest question can't be asked.

 

I do appreciate the responses, and as you can see........they did have an effect on me----- one that I'm not sure I like.

 

Tap

[Guest Challenger]

TAP. . .

 

I think the problem is that you are so use to people having an agenda that an honest question can't be asked.

 

 

[Merlinfmct87]

It certainly is a rare event, TAP. 90% of the christians that come here are just after converts and aren't the least bit interested in the personal stories of the people here. They just see an "Us and Them" boundary and dig no further.

 

This makes for a lot of entertaining debates, rather like watching a robot ram into the same wall over and over again, but it does tend to desensitize a person to questions like these.

 

Merlin

[white_raven23]

After reading your responses on this thread, I am convinced that those opinions are wrong.  The problem is that I'm not sure what to do with that information because it leads me to many more questions.

 

That is the quandry. Answers will always lead to more questions. One of my anthropology professors put it best when he told us "The more you learn, the less you know."

 

As for what to do with the info? Well, that's very much up to you. If you decide to try and show your fellow christians how wrong they are, be prepared to bang your head into a wall.

 

They are adept at twisting the meanings of things so they fit their narrow views. I wouldn't be surprised if you even got a resonse like: "Oh, you gathered this info on the internet. Uh-huh."

 

There are still enough technological hold-outs who have very narrow and suspicious opinions of the very medium you are using right this moment to....read.....what.....I'm....typing.

 

So I'm not really sure how much credibility they will "allow" your information to have since it crosses their viewpoint. Denouncing the source as untrustworthy is an easy out.

[Ouroboros]

I do believe my questions are valid and this web site does invite Christians to participate. If the question was not a good one, I'm sure the 94 other responses out of 97 would have said the same thing that Loren, Reach and Bruce said. However, that wasn't the case. It really doesn't matter, because I'm not here to score brownie points with anyone.

 

I think your questions have validity, because I haven't (and maybe others) made my de-conversion story yet, so you wouldn't know my reasons or where I came from. So you questions were justified IMO.

 

And like it was said in an earlier post, to get short answers from some of us in a collected form would give you a better overview and maybe get the connection a bit better, plus you can ask a bit more directly how/what/when/how to each answer.

 

TAP, I'm glad that you're here and dare discuss these matters.

[Vigile]

I have read thread after thread on a Christian Forum about how there is no possible way for somebody to be an Ex-Christian. They were either never Christians to begin with or are still Christians. From that you can go into the "You will know them by their fruit" or  "If one truly knows Christ they will never walk away" and much, much more.

 

After reading your responses on this thread, I am convinced that those opinions are wrong.  The problem is that I'm not sure what to do with that information because it leads me to many more questions.

 

I do believe my questions are valid and this web site does invite Christians to participate. If the question was not a good one, I'm sure the 94 other responses out of 97 would have said the same thing that Loren, Reach and Bruce said. However, that wasn't the case. It really doesn't matter, because I'm not here to score brownie points with anyone.

 

I think the problem is that you are so use to people having an agenda that an honest question can't be asked.

 

I do appreciate the responses, and as you can see........they did have an effect on me----- one that I'm not sure I like.

 

Tap

 

 

Tap,

 

I'm not exactly sure why you have been put into a position to have to defend yourself in this matter. You have soundly proved yourself here and I think your questions were presented innocently. I get the need for this website and to tell you the truth, it has been a great find for me; one that I didn't know I needed until I discovered it. That said, I don't think it needs to take on an us against them mentality. You are christian, we are not, but these are just beliefs. In the end we are all human and for me that cuts to the meat of the matter.

[Lokmer]

After reading your responses on this thread, I am convinced that those opinions are wrong.  The problem is that I'm not sure what to do with that information because it leads me to many more questions.

 

Essentially you have a problem of epistemology:

 

Are you going to trust what you've been taught?

 

or

 

Are you going to trust the evidence in front of you?

 

This is the classic believer's dilemma. If God is real and created the world, then he is the author of truth, therefore all truth will lead to a deeper and more honest understanding of God.

 

But...

 

If that truth leads away from one's accepted "truths," there's only so far one can do before one must make a decision:

 

Will I hold stubbornly to what I have accepted by faith?

Or

Will I trust the evidence of the world around me, which I believe God created?

 

One cannot hold forever onto the vines of faith and reason. Eventually one must (and always does) let go of one or the other. Either by making reason selective so that it only adds erudition to faith but never puts the believed tenents in serious jeopardy, or by letting go of the doctrines and trusting that the path of truth can be trod without needing to lie or obfuscate in order to protect God.

 

You see, TAP, every one of us here holds opinions that we believe are correct, but we all know that we could be horribly, dreadfully wrong. But, each for our different reasons, we have seen that Pascal's wager (that it's better to believe *just in case it's true*) is dishonest and immoral. Faith in a doctrine demands the conviction that it can not be wrong. Six day creationism, a literal eternal hell of smoke and flames, and several others of the classic doctrines of Christianity are utterly, demonstrably false. The only reason that people believe them is because they trust the people who taught it to them. More to the point, they trust their parents, teachers, and the people who wrote the Bible more than the trust God and what he wrote down in creation.

It may seem counter-intuitive, but I firmly believe that holding to sola fide (faith alone), in defiance of reason, is an act of DIStrust in God. After you get past the sophistocated intellectual defenses we all employ to protect ourselves from uncomfortable truths, sola fide basically says "I trust my own fears and hopes more than I trust the evidence of the world that God has made"

 

Ingersol said it best (paraphrase):

If God really exists, he will honor honest error far more than he will honor tepid fideism. And if God does NOT exist, then what a waste of life it is to spend one's scant time on this earth in devotion to an illusion.

 

The questions that are being raised in your mind because of the conflict between what you see and what you taught ultimately come down to a choice:

 

Do you believe that God might or does exist?

 

If you do, then there is no reason not to walk in the questions, to consider your doctrines expendable, and to question everything. If God is there, he will reveal himself in the truth. If he is not - or if God is a different sort of phenomenon than you've come to expect - you will learn that too. You have nothing to fear, and nothing to lose. Honest devotion lies in Paul's words "Test everything - hold on to the good."

 

-Lokmer

[Ouroboros]

Cerise, there are ways christians try to convert and ways christians try to convert.  Some come on, like our new visitor Troy, and start debating adn arguing their point.  Some use fear.  And some use being nice and becoming friends with people.  It's called "living out your witness".  I've known alot of Christians who say they witness for Jesus everyday in the workplace by being nice, and when people say how nice they are, they use that opportunity to say it is all because of Jesus, thus opening a door.  I suspect that is what TAP is doing here.  It is fairly harmless though, so I don't really care.  I just like to point stuff out.

 

It's true, but we know that we don't fall for that stuff, of the obvious reason that we know what we came from. It's easy to trick someone that way that has no knowledge or experience. So I have no worries. There is a third kind of Christians too, that actually are seeking a better understanding, and are questioning their own belief.

[DaveL]

Hi TAP

 

What denomination of the Christian Faith were you part of?

 

And what did they teach you was the requirement of becoming a Christian?

Tap

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1. The Catholic Church (a big hi to Pope Bendict BTW, no doctrinal changes noted )

 

2. The sacraments were compulsory. Baptism, Confession and Communion in that order. It was all good after Confirmation aged 11.

 

Marian devotion wasn't compulsory, but I gave it my best shot - still waiting for my prayers to be answered there....waiting...waiting....