Just Starting To Doubt - Question About The Bible

[currentchristian]

Gender isn't as straightforward as its been regarded in the modernistic mindset, whose to say its always been seen that way! Whose to say 'Fatherhood' meant to Jesus, the meaning we ascribe to the term? I'm guessing gender roles may have been seen differently ... this would explain the whole Abrahams bosom thing!

 

Very good point. What did "father" mean to Jesus?

 

When he cried out in the garden before his arrest, he used the word "Abba," which we've been told means, in Aramaic, something like "Daddy." But what does that mean, too?

 

-CC

[Dave]

Are these not just storytelling techniques ...

No, they are religious induction techniques. You tell the person you're telling the truth enough times, they'll start to believe you.

 

How can one be so sure that is really much different from the ghost story round the campfire when the teller says 'and I know because I was that boy ....' to send a tingle down the collective spines of the audience. All the world religions have their version of 'and god said' - only fundamentalists take such comments as being 'literally' true.

That's what I was saying.

just because it never happened don't mean its not the truth!

Huh?

The authors claim, via the characters in the story, claim to be telling the truth. They represented what they had to say as the truth. They intended what they had to say to be taken as the truth. They were not talking "spiritually" they were talking literally and to them there would have been no difference.

On what are you basing this conclusion?

What they said.

 

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what you argument is.

[Dave]

When he cried out in the garden before his arrest, he used the word "Abba," which we've been told means, in Aramaic, something like "Daddy." But what does that mean, too?

 

-CC

A strange group of musicians from Europe.

[currentchristian]

When he cried out in the garden before his arrest, he used the word "Abba," which we've been told means, in Aramaic, something like "Daddy." But what does that mean, too?

 

-CC

A strange group of musicians from Europe.

 

 

But wasn't ABBA wonderful: "Gimme, gimme, gimme a man after midnight."

 

FROM WIKIPEDIA:

 

In the spring of 1973, Stig Anderson, having tired of the unwieldy names, started to refer to the group privately and publicly as ABBA. This was done as a joke at first, since Abba was also the name of a well-known fish-canning company in Sweden. However, since the fish canners were more or less unknown outside Sweden, Stig came to believe the name would work in international markets and so it stuck. Later the group negotiated with the canners for the right to use the name. The first single released as "ABBA" was 'Waterloo'.

 

ABBA is an acronym formed from the first letters of each group member's name: Agnetha, Björn, Benny and Anni-Frid (Frida). It is usually written ABBA but sometimes, mostly in the media, also as a word, Abba. The first B in the logo version of the name was reversed on the band's promotional material from 1976 onwards and became the group's registered trademark.

[Alice]

Are these not just storytelling techniques ...

No, they are religious induction techniques. You tell the person you're telling the truth enough times, they'll start to believe you.

 

How can one be so sure that is really much different from the ghost story round the campfire when the teller says 'and I know because I was that boy ....' to send a tingle down the collective spines of the audience. All the world religions have their version of 'and god said' - only fundamentalists take such comments as being 'literally' true.

That's what I was saying.

just because it never happened don't mean its not the truth!

Huh?

The authors claim, via the characters in the story, claim to be telling the truth. They represented what they had to say as the truth. They intended what they had to say to be taken as the truth. They were not talking "spiritually" they were talking literally and to them there would have been no difference.

On what are you basing this conclusion?

What they said.

 

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what you argument is.

 

Stories can contain 'truth', whether the tale is based around factual events or not. Just because an even didn't happen doesn't mean that that the story doesn't contain truth. You appear to apply a modernist literal mindset to material that was written outside of such a framework. A common mistake.

 

You are not simply basing your conculsions on 'what they said' - you appear to be basing your conclusion on 'what you think they meant'.

 

The value I find in spiritual writings comes (nowadays) from being able to think outside of the modernist literal mindset.

[Mythra]

Holy Shit!

 

It's a fulfillment of prophecy and a message for believers!!

 

Jesus prophesied the group ABBA!

 

And, he knew that one of their big hits would be KNOWING ME, KNOWING YOU. Jesus was sending a message from the cross, that you have to know him to know yourself!!

 

He was thinking of us, even as he died on the cross. He loves you thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis much!!!

 

Oh, this has HUGE implications.

 

I gotta sit down and think about this some more.

[Dave]

Stories can contain 'truth', whether the tale is based around factual events or not. Just because an even didn't happen doesn't mean that that the story doesn't contain truth. You appear to apply a modernist literal mindset to material that was written outside of such a framework. A common mistake.

 

The mistake was attributing things to me that I did not say. The bible does contain some truths, any book of fiction contains some truths. However, that does not make everything else the book has to say to be true.

 

You are not simply basing your conculsions on 'what they said' - you appear to be basing your conclusion on 'what you think they meant'.

 

Isn't that what you are doing to me? Isn't that exactly what believers in the bible do to the bible?

 

The value I find in spiritual writings comes (nowadays) from being able to think outside of the modernist literal mindset.

 

That's nice. I look at self proclaimed "spiritual" people, I look at what they do, how they act, how they speak, how they react, how they emote, and I can see I want none of what they claim to have. My personal view, from looking outside of the "spiritual" mindset, I do not want to be like them. For too many, from what I see, it is just a facade they put up so that they can claim superior over those that are not so "spiritual." I may have those feelings because I've been around some truly spiritual people and they would NEVER proclaim them selves as such in public and would only reluctantly talk about it if questioned. They would NEVER use their beliefs to judge others with.

[Alice]

The mistake was attributing things to me that I did not say. The bible does contain some truths, any book of fiction contains some truths. However, that does not make everything else the book has to say to be true.

 

My mistake - I thought it was you who had previously said you saw no value in the Bible whatsoever. I agree with you 100% that whilst the Bible contains some truths this does not mean that everything else the book has to say is true.

 

You are not simply basing your conculsions on 'what they said' - you appear to be basing your conclusion on 'what you think they meant'.

 

Isn't that what you are doing to me? Isn't that exactly what believers in the bible do to the bible?

 

Yes Absolutely!

 

The value I find in spiritual writings comes (nowadays) from being able to think outside of the modernist literal mindset.

 

That's nice. I look at self proclaimed "spiritual" people, I look at what they do, how they act, how they speak, how they react, how they emote, and I can see I want none of what they claim to have. My personal view, from looking outside of the "spiritual" mindset, I do not want to be like them. For too many, from what I see, it is just a facade they put up so that they can claim superior over those that are not so "spiritual." I may have those feelings because I've been around some truly spiritual people and they would NEVER proclaim them selves as such in public and would only reluctantly talk about it if questioned. They would NEVER use their beliefs to judge others with.

I think you raise a really interesting distinction here. I like your description of a truly spiritual person being someone who would never use their beliefs to judge others - a really straight to the heart of the matter succinct description.

[Dave]

My mistake - I thought it was you who had previously said you saw no value in the Bible whatsoever. I agree with you 100% that whilst the Bible contains some truths this does not mean that everything else the book has to say is true.

 

Just because it contains very few truths, doesn't mean it has value. Those truth could be gotten from any Atlas or real history book without all the religious baggage. If you want philosophical, or moral, truths then the bible has nothing that you could not get from any modern book - again without the religious baggage.

 

I think you raise a really interesting distinction here. I like your description of a truly spiritual person being someone who would never use their beliefs to judge others - a really straight to the heart of the matter succinct description.

 

I get something right once in about 500 posts.

 

That's just my experience though. Others have different views that are no better or worse than mine, just different.

[mwc]

That's nice. I look at self proclaimed "spiritual" people, I look at what they do, how they act, how they speak, how they react, how they emote, and I can see I want none of what they claim to have. My personal view, from looking outside of the "spiritual" mindset, I do not want to be like them. For too many, from what I see, it is just a facade they put up so that they can claim superior over those that are not so "spiritual." I may have those feelings because I've been around some truly spiritual people and they would NEVER proclaim them selves as such in public and would only reluctantly talk about it if questioned. They would NEVER use their beliefs to judge others with.

AHA!!! I knew it! You did indeed understand what I was talking about when I used the term "spiritual" (and it's clear you understand its variations).

 

mwc