Christian Country?

[Lycorth]

Before I respond, I'd like to take a few moments and affirm some things - just so there is no misunderstanding. I do recognize and honor the following:

• This is Ex-Christian.net and it is a place of support for those leaving Christianity. As such, this is YOUR home and I am the visitor.
  
• I've absolutely no desire to tell you (or anyone else) what they should say and do - especially in their own home.
  
• What I write here is in the context of this thread - where sentiment has been expressed that liberal Christians should speak out more (as well as Ex-Cs) in the larger culture.
  
• This issue - of finding productive ways to "speak up" in the larger culture is near and dear to my heart. What follows are not my answers to problems I have been dealing with for years. They are my mussings and I welcome input from anyone reading this.
  

OK, now that the disclaimer is out of the way....

 

Well-said - but to me, I'd consider you more than a mere "visitor" here

 

I am making an assumption here - so please do correct me if I am wrong. If you have come out of an extreme form of Christianity, I can certainly understand why you affiliate Christianity with racism.

 

You're not far-off. I was a Xian for 27+ years, but spent about 10-12 years of it in fervent devotion. My attitudes towards it, and towards whichever sect I was a part of at the time, were always extreme. It was a combination of both my personality (which is prone to such high levels of passion about things) and the extremist viewpoints I naturally gravitated towards.

 

I was involved with not just severe reconstructionist/dominionist viewpoints of Xianity, but was also a neo-Nazi for a time (a semi-unrelated occurance), so it's rather easy for me to see many parallels between the two, and anything else that's similar.

 

Having said that, it is also fair to point out that many of us have never been exposed to extreme forms of Christianity (well never been expected to buy into it anyway). For many, many, many people Christianity is the core of a productive and well-rounded belief system.

 

All Xians who are rasied with or get into extreme Xianity are always given the impression that their religion is at the center of a well-balanced and harmonious existence. Extremists rarely realize how off-balance they really are.

 

However, it is my belief that the "extinction" of Christianity would severely harm humanity, just as the extinction of any other world religion would harm humanity. My heart ached as I watched extremists blow up ancient statues of the Buddha - on the nightly news - for good reason. Buddhism is a reflection of one part of humanity. Christianity is a reflection of another part of humanity. And we need all the lessons of ancient history, all of them - even the lessons of horror and war. We will continue to repeat the mistakes of the past unless we learn from them.

 

I was saddened at the destruction of the Buddha statues - because Buddhism is sane and rational and Is-lame is nuts. To me, it was the bad guys scoring a win, which I always hate to see happen.

 

The Abrahamic cults are indeed reflections of parts of humanity, but for these cults to be universally rejected and relegated to research shelves and history books, I think, would only benefit humanity. It would open wide again the doors to unfettered human potential and imagination and remove anything that could possibly stifle those things, given the highly oppressive nature of the Abrahamic cults in regards to differing religious and philosophical ideas.

 

But you must understand that I cannot but see Xianity and its cousins as inherently oppressive ideologies that always have the potential to go awry. I see them as the sick products of sick minds.

 

There are literalists in every religion - extinquishing religion does not rid the world of extremists.

 

I agree - I would never want to extinguish all religions. I just would like to see Xianity and all oppressive cults and philosophies be universally rejected by all humanity and relegated only to the bookshelves, not people's hearts.

 

I have had Christian/Buddhist dialog with Buddhists who literally believe their scriptures. I am no less amazed at the ability of the human brain to twist Buddhist scripture to ones own end than I am amazed at the ability of the human brain to twist Christian scriptures. It's quite mad, actually. But, the word "extinquish" denotes a touch of force (at a minimum) or violence (at a maximum). Very little is solved by force.

 

Again, to clrify, when I say I want to wipe out Xianity, I don't mean to remove all traces of it nor force anyone to give it up. I want to educate people to see the truth about it and to reject is consequentially - but to still preserve some basic information about it, so we never forget.

 

We must never forget what things like Xianity have done to humanity - and can still do, if we make the mistake again of accepting them wholeheartedly.

 

It is easier for me to sit at a table with literalist Hindus than it is for me to sit at a table literalist Christians.

 

Tells you something abut the nature of an ideology when you cannot talk rationally with those who literally hold to it, no?

 

Part of the reason I want to see Xianity universally rejected - ie, extinguished. We don't need garbage like that.

 

But - even in all of my frustrations with that mindset - I do believe it would harm humanity to destroy an entire religon. It is productive to expect a religion to "grow up" to "mature". But, to "destroy" any religion would only lead to violence.

 

I cannot but disagree; the "destruction" of Nazism didn't lead to violence - it led to peace. It's not a religion, but was held with the same fervor as any fundy Xian sect. Destroying Xianity in the heart of the individual believer brings only peace and happiness, as evidenced by many of those on this site who had a horrific time with Xianity in their lives until they gave it up.

 

Therefore, I think that universal rejection of Xianity by all humanity would only improve humanity.

 

I will acknowledge your point - that in the mind of literalists any form of Christianity that is not their own is a "destruction". But, do you see my point - within a cultural discussion (ie -sitting across the table from said literalist) it only serves to cause harm, to divide by using language like "destroy" or "extinquish", etc... ?

 

Yes, I do see your point. Me, I also refuse to dialogue with fundies, because there is no such thing. Talking to them to say anything other than "you're right - I want to believe as you do" will always cause problems.

 

For the sake of discussion - I have often wondered how a team of Ex-Christians, non-Christians, and liberal Christians would be received in mainstream churches for discussion. I go to a mainstream church and many people have told me that my outspokeness on these issues have helped them to let-go of some of their more traditional beliefs. And so - I wonder - in the back of my mind.... what would happen if I put a team of people together to go out and speak on Sunday mornings to area churches.

 

I think mainstream churches would be open to the idea and I'm getting closer to just doing it..... So much of my effort these past years has been invested in just buildng an interspiritual group. And that still needs a lot of work - but I can also feel myself getting restless for something more.

 

It all depends on the church in particular. Some would invite you in the hopes of converting you back to their fold, others would not want to discuss anything with "heretics." I wish you luck - anyone who battles against fundamentalism is ok in my book

[Open_Minded]

to me, I'd consider you more than a mere "visitor" here

Thank you - I truly mean that - thank you.

 

All Xians who are rasied with or get into extreme Xianity are always given the impression that their religion is at the center of a well-balanced and harmonious existence. Extremists rarely realize how off-balance they really are.

We agree here. But not all Christians are extremists. Not all Christians use their religious beliefs to justify violence.

 

The Abrahamic cults are indeed reflections of parts of humanity, but for these cults to be universally rejected and relegated to research shelves and history books, I think, would only benefit humanity. It would open wide again the doors to unfettered human potential and imagination and remove anything that could possibly stifle those things, given the highly oppressive nature of the Abrahamic cults in regards to differing religious and philosophical ideas.

And as reflections of parts of humanity there is GOOD in them as well as bad.

 

But you must understand that I cannot but see Xianity and its cousins as inherently oppressive ideologies that always have the potential to go awry. I see them as the sick products of sick minds.

Coming from the kind of background you describe - I would probably draw the same conclusion.

 

But that's the whole point, millions upon millions of Christians are like me - we didn't come out of extremism we came out of moderate to liberal backgrounds in Christianity. So - for us - Christianity is the source of freedom - not oppression. I know that is hard to understand - but I really did CHOOSE to come back to Christianity. It really does give me a foundation - and it gives many other moderates and liberals a foundation as well.

_________

 

There are literalists in every religion - extinguishing religion does not rid the world of extremists.

I agree - I would never want to extinguish all religions. I just would like to see Xianity and all oppressive cults and philosophies be universally rejected by all humanity and relegated only to the bookshelves, not people's hearts.

I would like to see hatred and oppression in any form universally rejected as well. The thing is - if that should ever happen - Christianity in its whole would not be rejected. What would be rejected is literalism, fundamentalism - certain interpretations of Christianity would be rejected. But Christianity would still survive because there is also a part of Christianity that is productive and healthy.

 

It is easier for me to sit at a table with literalist Hindus than it is for me to sit at a table literalist Christians.

 

Tells you something abut the nature of an ideology when you cannot talk rationally with those who literally hold to it, no?

Please do not misunderstand the frustration I feel in talking with literalist Christians vs. literalist Hindus or literalist Buddhists. All literalists are mind-numbing for me to indure. I have really struggled with this and talked quite extensively about it to people who know me well.

 

Bottom line - when it comes right down to it - I can not yet sit at a table with literalist Christians because they remind me too much of people I know and love in my own life. I don't have that problem with literalist Hindus or Buddhists. To be specific - although my parents escaped literalism and freed us children from it - not all of their siblings did. I've many fundy cousins. Some whom I grew up with, played with, dreamed with.... And as we grew into adults my sisters and I went onto fullfill our dreams (an education, etc...). Our fundy female cousins married right out of highschool and started popping out babies every few years. As one of my sisters says, "they left their brains at the alter".

 

(I was a full-time mom for many, many years - but I still thought. I still grew and I still used my brain. My cousins didn't - it's as if they stopped growing at 18.

 

I can't sit at a table with fundy Christians because I see my cousins (or the fundy men they married) sitting across from me and emotionally I just can't deal with it.

_______________

 

But - even in all of my frustrations with that mindset - I do believe it would harm humanity to destroy an entire religon. It is productive to expect a religion to "grow up" to "mature". But, to "destroy" any religion would only lead to violence.

I cannot but disagree; the "destruction" of Nazism didn't lead to violence - it led to peace.

Well - Nazism (and the hatred that comes with it) still exists. Maybe in different form - but it still exists - it still spews hatred.

 

 

Me, I also refuse to dialogue with fundies, because there is no such thing. Talking to them to say anything other than "you're right - I want to believe as you do" will always cause problems.

 

You know 90% of the time - that is a fact. But, rarely, very rarely there are literalists who are open to discussion.

[Kuroikaze]

Hey OM, let me first say that you are probably one of the few Christians I respect, I know quite a bit about the more liberal forms of Christianity as my religion profs in college were mostly liberal Christians. One of them even called him a Buddhist Christian and was a proponent of process theology.

 

While I didn't always agree with him on many things, even as a fundy I eventually developed a grudging respect for him....of course now that I think about it, I was probably on my way out of fundy town when I started respecting him. I have no idea what he would think of me becoming an athiest, cause I haven't talked to him in years.

 

Of course my point is that while I respect what you are trying to do you are very much fighting an uphill battle with fundies. You say you want to allay their fears that you are trying to take their religion away....but in fact that is EXACTLY what you are doing in their mind (as you said, you were never a fundy so it might be hard for you to understand that mindset)

 

Having been a fundy, you have to realize that the narrow and stilted interpretation they put on the bible IS their religion, The only possible way they can accept you or I as equals is to become less fundamentalist, and in their opinion becoming any less fundy would be a horrible sin.

 

The reality is that most fundies would lump you in right with us...or perhaps worse, because in their mind you are "pretending" to be a Christian and misleading people with a satanically inspired distortion of the gospel. I'm not making this up, this is exactly what I and my friends said about liberal Christians....I knew some who would even go as far as to say that people like you were actually possessed by demons.

 

I ask you HOW exactly to you build bridges with people that think you are evil? Its not just hard, but nearly impossible. Of course it CAN be done occasionally, otherwise this site would not exist, but I very much doubt that most Fundy Christians are ready to leave the Matrix

[Open_Minded]

Hello Kuroikaze

 

Hey OM, let me first say that you are probably one of the few Christians I respect.

Thank you - I respect you as well.

 

I know quite a bit about the more liberal forms of Christianity as my religion profs in college were mostly liberal Christians. One of them even called him a Buddhist Christian and was a proponent of process theology.

 

While I didn't always agree with him on many things, even as a fundy I eventually developed a grudging respect for him....of course now that I think about it, I was probably on my way out of fundy town when I started respecting him. I have no idea what he would think of me becoming an athiest, cause I haven't talked to him in years.

My guess is - that if he is a Buddhist Christian - he'd consider your position quite valid. Buddhism is non-theistic. One cannot study it or participate for any length of time in Buddhist philosophy without delving into a world-view that is non-theistic.

 

Of course my point is that while I respect what you are trying to do you are very much fighting an uphill battle with fundies. You say you want to allay their fears that you are trying to take their religion away....but in fact that is EXACTLY what you are doing in their mind (as you said, you were never a fundy so it might be hard for you to understand that mindset)

Yes - you are right - in their mind people like myself are trying to "take their religion away". But, there is no need for me to add amunition to their paranoia with provocative language.

 

The reality is that most fundies would lump you in right with us...

I'll "suffer in hell" with all of you first.... you're all so much more fun. You actually know what humor is.

 

or perhaps worse, because in their mind you are "pretending" to be a Christian and misleading people with a satanically inspired distortion of the gospel. I'm not making this up, this is exactly what I and my friends said about liberal Christians....I knew some who would even go as far as to say that people like you were actually possessed by demons.

Yes ... I've run into this dynamic before.

 

My name is often in the local newspaper as the contact person for our interspiritual meditation group. About 3-4 years ago I received a phone call from someone who suffered from clinical depression. Her psychologist had convinced her that using meditation might be of some help. She called me because she was wondering if I could teach her meditation. Now - I get these phone calls occassionally - so I thought nothing of it and set up an appointment to meet with her and her husband.

 

Turned out she was a serious fundy - I truly believe it was her husband who convinced her to give me a call. Now it's possible to learn the basic principles of a simple Centering Prayer meditation in one sitting. Centering Prayer is a form of Christian meditation - but it's really not that different from some meditation I've learned out of the eastern traditions.

 

The thing is when most people call me to learn meditation they are willing to "jump right in" during our first meeting. But this woman - wow - she was absolutely convinced that if she used a centering word - even if that word was "Jesus" or "God" that she would be opening up a space in her self for Satan to enter in. I mean - I've never seen such paranoia in my life - her fear was absoloutely real and it was so - well - just insane. I am sure that her clinical depression was due to her theology.

 

It took her husband and myself two 3-4 hour sessions to convince her that she could close her eyes and center on one word for a duration of 20 minutes.

 

All the things that you said about people seing me as "possessed by demons" and such - it all came out while her husband and I were working with her. In the end she did allow herself to learn Centering Prayer. She's still a fundy - but she's learned Centering Prayer (even gone to a few retreats) and uses it daily. She tells me her depression is much better.

 

I ask you HOW exactly to you build bridges with people that think you are evil? Its not just hard, but nearly impossible. Of course it CAN be done occasionally, otherwise this site would not exist, but I very much doubt that most Fundy Christians are ready to leave the Matrix

Well, that woman above - I was able to impact her life. I would not have been able to do it without her husband's assistance - but we did get through. She doesn't think of me as evil anymore. And if she doesn't consider me "evil" anymore than the chances are that the next time she comes across a liberal Christian (or a non-Christian) she'll think twice before automatically assuming we're destined for hell.

 

She still doesn't tell her pastor that she practices Centering Prayer for fear of him labeling her "evil". But - she does practice it. She does go to workshops and retreats and her clinical depression is not as bad as it once was.

 

The thing is - (and you've seen me go off on fundies on this board - you know what I'm capable of) - but the thing is - for some reason I was able to respond compassionately to this woman. Her fear was so vivid - so real - honestly all I felt was compassion. Here she was sitting there telling me straight to my face that Satan had a hold of me. We were sitting in my church sanctuary - she was fearful that Satan was in the sanctuary (a place that is very comforting to me). I swear she thought I was going to start foaming at the mouth. And still - in the middle of all that - I held my tongue and managed to find a compassionate way to talk to her.

 

I don't know - there are no easy answers. That situation is rare - I'll admit. And it's not a situation I would have sought out - it sort of landed in my lap. I'm more inclined to seek dialog with people who are more mainstream in their thinking. Within my own congregation there are many people who have taken a less literal approach to reading the Bible because of my big mouth (and others as well).

 

When we seek dialog outside the congregation - it is usually interfaith. I won't intentionally put myself in a position of dialoging with literalist Christians for the reasons I've mentioned above. Maybe someday - but not now. Right now this board is as close as I get to dialog with fundy Christians.

[Lycorth]

Thank you - I truly mean that - thank you.

 

You're very welcome - you've earned it

 

We agree here. But not all Christians are extremists. Not all Christians use their religious beliefs to justify violence.

 

I know - in fact, most Xians (I'm willing to bet) wouldn't dare think of it. Most Xians, however, don't literally follow what their Babbles say, if they even read them at all. Those who read them try to make metaphorical loopholes to leap through in order to avoid the gruesome things required of believers in the OT and the NT.

 

But there are many who will be gratefully oppressive, with the Babble as their catalyst, usually not even realizing their oppressiveness. Sadly, the plain text of the Babble easily lends itself to this. Hence, I oppose Xianity utterly, and cannot in good conscience be supportive of it. I can tolerate liberalism and anti-literalism in Xian sects or individuals, but only because it's the next best thing to totally rejecting Xianity wholesale.

 

And as reflections of parts of humanity there is GOOD in them as well as bad.

 

Sure, there is good to be found, and people ought to focus on it (if they won't reject Xianity totally). But, as I see it, there's far more bad to be found in the Babble. There are a few examples of charitable behavior or tolerant behavior sprinkled here and there, but it seems to me that the damned book contains a hundred bad bits to every good one.

 

Again, it's why I cannot tolerate Xianity at all, in good conscience.

 

But that's the whole point, millions upon millions of Christians are like me - we didn't come out of extremism we came out of moderate to liberal backgrounds in Christianity. So - for us - Christianity is the source of freedom - not oppression. I know that is hard to understand - but I really did CHOOSE to come back to Christianity. It really does give me a foundation - and it gives many other moderates and liberals a foundation as well.

 

Again, to many Xian literalists (and especially the extreme fundy crowd), they see their religion as the very source of freedom, wisdom, and the antidote to oppression. Unlike the bad guys depicted in children's cartoons, oppressors in the real world don't consciously glory in being "evil" or such - they think they are only doing what is right.

 

Because the Babble lends itself so easily to this is why I am so opposed to it and to Xianity of any stripe, in my heart. I know I sound like a broken record

 

I would like to see hatred and oppression in any form universally rejected as well. The thing is - if that should ever happen - Christianity in its whole would not be rejected. What would be rejected is literalism, fundamentalism - certain interpretations of Christianity would be rejected. But Christianity would still survive because there is also a part of Christianity that is productive and healthy.

 

Please do not misunderstand the frustration I feel in talking with literalist Christians vs. literalist Hindus or literalist Buddhists. All literalists are mind-numbing for me to indure. I have really struggled with this and talked quite extensively about it to people who know me well.

 

We agree here; fundamentalism (ie, extremism and literalism) is the true enemy - in all ideologies. Anyone can be an intolerant ass of a fundy. It was what turned me off briefly to Asatru, after I began literally believing in it recently - the amount of intolerant, illogical, fundamentalist assholes who are so very quick to reject anything not based in Germanic lore as "fluffy" and hence unworthy of the slightest regard is somewhat astounding, and symptomatic of the very same problem that helps to make Xianity unbearable.

 

But for Asatruar to behave like that is not internally justified in their religion. For Xians to do so, however, is. Again, I'm doing the broken record thing, but I hope I'm making my underlying reasons clear.

 

Well - Nazism (and the hatred that comes with it) still exists. Maybe in different form - but it still exists - it still spews hatred.

 

Heh - believe me, I know all too well how Nazism still persists to this day :s

 

But, the original Nazis were overthrown, and with that came freedom from their particular brand of oppression. If Xianity were to perish utterly, any chance of the same from them would also disappear.

 

You know 90% of the time - that is a fact. But, rarely, very rarely there are literalists who are open to discussion.

 

So sad, but so true. Hopefully, those people will dwindle in number as time goes on and more rational thoughts take precedence, and the fundies are driven to the fringes of society.

[Open_Minded]

Hello Varokhar:

I oppose Xianity utterly, and cannot in good conscience be supportive of it. I can tolerate liberalism and anti-literalism in Xian sects or individuals, but only because it's the next best thing to totally rejecting Xianity wholesale.

I understand your position.

 

And as reflections of parts of humanity there is GOOD in them as well as bad.

Sure, there is good to be found, and people ought to focus on it (if they won't reject Xianity totally).

And ... it seems you understand my position.

 

I would like to see hatred and oppression in any form universally rejected as well. The thing is - if that should ever happen - Christianity in its whole would not be rejected. What would be rejected is literalism, fundamentalism - certain interpretations of Christianity would be rejected. But Christianity would still survive because there is also a part of Christianity that is productive and healthy.

 

Please do not misunderstand the frustration I feel in talking with literalist Christians vs. literalist Hindus or literalist Buddhists. All literalists are mind-numbing for me to indure. I have really struggled with this and talked quite extensively about it to people who know me well.

We agree here; fundamentalism (ie, extremism and literalism) is the true enemy - in all ideologies.

Yes - this is where we agree.

 

 

Anyone can be an intolerant ass of a fundy.

And ... again we agree.

 

 

But, the original Nazis were overthrown, and with that came freedom from their particular brand of oppression. If Xianity were to perish utterly, any chance of the same from them would also disappear.

First - the reality is that Christianity will not perish UTTERLY. That has been my point all along. To take the position that it should "perish UTTERLY" is to take a position of "black and white". Something is either "all good" or "all evil". If it is "all evil" then it should "perish UTTERLY". It is a fundamentalist postion.

 

The reality is that Christianity will not "perish UTTERLY" - at least not in our lifetime. This is what we are left to deal with.

 

We are left to choose the most productive position we can take - given that reality. Again - please don't misunderstand me. I've already outlined my own inabilities to deal productively with Christian literalists. But, again back to the unspoken rule of interspiritual dialog - the rule that requires one to accept the other as equally human in order for dialog to have any fruit. But, I also know that in order to deal most productively with the reality of fundamentalism in all it's flavors - there must be discussion and dialog and education. In the end - I can't think of a better approach to the problem of literalism and fundamentalism. Honest and open discussion and dialog IS education. It makes us aware of another's reality. Once we become aware of someone else's reality - we are less inclined towards judgmental behavior.

 

You know 90% of the time - that is a fact. But, rarely, very rarely there are literalists who are open to discussion.

So sad, but so true. Hopefully, those people will dwindle in number as time goes on and more rational thoughts take precedence, and the fundies are driven to the fringes of society.

Again - we find ourselves in agreement.

[Lycorth]

The reality is that Christianity will not "perish UTTERLY" - at least not in our lifetime. This is what we are left to deal with.

 

Personally, I am not sure if it will ever perish. I'd love for it to be universally rejected and relegated to entries in research books, but there will always be some few who believe in some way. Few human religions are ever rejected in that fashion, and even the most obscure have a handful of adherents of some sort, somewhere.

 

I can live with that. So long as it is rejected by the vast majority of humanity and so thoroughly disproved and dismantled that it will never again find widespread acceptance (at least in fundamentalist form), I will think that most pleasing. Though absolute and eternal rejection would be my preferred outcome.

 

But, again back to the unspoken rule of interspiritual dialog - the rule that requires one to accept the other as equally human in order for dialog to have any fruit.

 

Also, the fundamentalists would have to either honestly believe that they may not be correct or be willing to consider that possibility. Always bear in mind that the stubborn fundy will never think he or she is wrong. Especially in that dissenters are being led by demons, in the case of Xian zealots.

 

But, I also know that in order to deal most productively with the reality of fundamentalism in all it's flavors - there must be discussion and dialog and education. In the end - I can't think of a better approach to the problem of literalism and fundamentalism. Honest and open discussion and dialog IS education. It makes us aware of another's reality. Once we become aware of someone else's reality - we are less inclined towards judgmental behavior.

 

Educating them is the only way they will find out the truth. We just can't kill 'em all - that's how they would deal with it, and it makes us no better than them. It's just damned hard to get a fundy to listen in the first place

 

Good luck with your efforts - I do hope you can get a few to pry open their ears and hearts.

[Open_Minded]

But, again back to the unspoken rule of interspiritual dialog - the rule that requires one to accept the other as equally human in order for dialog to have any fruit.

Also, the fundamentalists would have to either honestly believe that they may not be correct or be willing to consider that possibility. Always bear in mind that the stubborn fundy will never think he or she is wrong. Especially in that dissenters are being led by demons, in the case of Xian zealots.

Yes, this is very true. The only reason the woman (I spoke of above) and I were able to connect at all is that we both acknowledged the other as equally human. She was absolutely in severe fear that devils were involved with meditation. But, she couldn't get past something in her that kept reminding her that I was a human too, that I was sincere in my beliefs, that I was compassionate, etc...

 

Her trust in her husband also played a huge role. He trusted me, and it made it easier for her to trust me.

 

Educating them is the only way they will find out the truth. We just can't kill 'em all - that's how they would deal with it, and it makes us no better than them.

Exactly....

Good luck with your efforts - I do hope you can get a few to pry open their ears and hearts.

Well - as mentioned above - as of yet I'm not able to dialog in person with fundies. But, I do talk with more mainstream Christians. They are more willing to question and rethink and consider other possibilities.

 

Hopefully someday I'll reach a point where I can sit down with fundy Christians and not get angry or emotional with them. We just keep trying - that's all we can do.