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There Is Much Hatred Here


Fretbuzz
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Or your spleen, or whatever is the center of your being.

 

I can definately understand where a lot of the bitterness and anger comes from - it's hard to find peace in confrontation with Christians .. especially if they still play a large role in your life. I feel stirred and get my feathers ruffled with family members - a lot.

 

But after looking at "The Lions Den" and other sub forums here, I just want to encourage you to examine your motivations here.

 

Let me explain here I'm coming from: I think I left the church because I feel motivated by love. Now of course this is arguably a grossly over-generalized and simple proposition, but it seems to me that human creatures scampering across the face of this planet have 2 things that can motivate them: Love or Fear. I knew many people brought into the church out of a fear of hell, or of ostracization from family members. I also know many people who were brought to the assembly in desperation to escape their addications, bad relationships, mental illnesses etc., and actually found people there who cared (or sometimes simply seemed to..). Personally, I remember "accepting Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior" when I was a young boy, and feeling pretty lovey-dovey over the experience and acceptance from my family and friends. When I reached the teen years and I wasn't so cute anymore, I realized that there needed to be a different reason to stay in this game. It was then that I think I started to screw up as a Christian.

 

I realized that I with in love with the idea of a Jesus, and not with his spooky afterlife.

 

I remember thinking for days on end about how beautiful the idea of a gentle man such as Christ was - walking along the banks of Gethsemane, loving and feeding other people (maybe healing them .. but that and other miracles were curiously less important to me), showing them how peaceful life could be .. As you might expect, I also started having a fascination with the 1960's and hippies (which generation I was born after), and the music of the time. The images of flower-power and free love were quite compelling to a kid with my temperament. Of course, I grew up in a rougher neighborhood and witnessed a lot of violence in my teens as well, and it seemed like this Jesus image was a good one to help others around me.

 

I think that this is exactly what the church could not tolerate in it's constituency - someone who simply wanted to experience what Jesus experienced .. and not to worship his graven image. It was then that I realized that the motivation to keep me "in line" was to produce a fear of hell, fear of evil/the devil, fear of death and the afterlife. This simply did not jive with me as a philosophically/mystically inclined creature ..

 

Now finally back to the topic - what motivates you? I think it might be a good thing to check if you want love or fear in your life. Believe me - I have absolutely nothing to sell, and feel absolutely repulsed by the idea that this might sound preachy. But as an ex-Christian, I still feel a deep love for this life, fellow creatures on this planet, and want to continue to express that in my life.

 

Again - we all have differing backgrounds and experiences to bring to the forum, but perhaps we can use some of our energy to express love!? ..

 

(Thanks for letting me write this!)

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You're right, it is an overgeneralization. Fretbuzz, you need to realize that some here are just coming out of xianity and need to rail against it a bit. It's healthy for them to do so. So stop harshing their buzz man. Or should that be Fretbuzz?

 

In any case, even I, after having been out of xianity for years and years still don't like it when strangers tell me to examine my heart. Man, that just smacks of judgemental Christianese if I ever heard it. B)

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Or your spleen, or whatever is the center of your being.

 

I can definately understand where a lot of the bitterness and anger comes from - it's hard to find peace in confrontation with Christians ..

 

Yes, most, if not all, of the christians that come here are full of anger, and hate. They just cannot understand that we do not believe in their gods. Their misunderstanding, and ignorance, come out in anger. The believers that come there to challenge the non believers, the believers almost always take the calm, rational, and sincere replies of the non believers to be some form of anger or hatred towards the believers favored god or religion. The believers bring the anger, not us.

 

Now for some of those that have recently deconverted; yes, they are angry and for good reasons. They've been lied to for many years. They've wasted a lot of time and effort in forcing themselves to believe in those lies. After the initial shock of accepting their deconversion it takes awhile for them to move on to the next step; living life.

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Dear Fretbuz,

 

There is a problem when people suppress feelings and emotions. People need to rant and let the flood gates open sometimes. There is a healing process where anger and bitterness has to be dealt with. Unfortunately when you live in a Christian society is that if you lose your faith, you have no one to go to. You have the frustrations and you can get rid of them. This site is for those people that need to get this frustration of their chest, so they can heal and become a whole person again. And after that healing they will be (hopefully) this loving and caring person you ask for.

 

Why would anyone go into a surgery room and ask: "why is there so much blood here? Isn't it dangerous to bleed? We're supposed to be without cuts as humans, so stop what you're doing!"

 

Personally, I have rid myself of most of my frustration and anger to Christians. It does come back now and then when I feel mistreated as a human being and citizen. But I can't understand why people consistently have to come to this site and demand that it becomes what it is not. This site isn't the coffee shop on the corner, but it is the OR in the hospital, or the maybe the oil pit in the car shop where they take the cars appart... it's just dirty and messy, because it needs to be. If we remove that part from this site, then there are no where to go anymore. This is probably the only place for a newly ex-Christian to become a whole being again.

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Fret,

 

I don't think I need to reiterate what others have already said. I will say, however, that any hatred expressed is not generally toward christians, but toward the poison of religion itself. I don't see anything wrong with that and for myself I can say that quite a bit of venting about it was healthy for me.

 

Be careful about judging the actions and motivation of others.

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Well, I thought I was clear that this was an observation .. not a commandment.

 

I didn't realize it sounded like I was telling people to stop writing angry words .. if it does - forget it. Of course its healthy, and normal etc. to vent/rant, but like Dave said - we can move on and live again.

 

I suppose my position comes out of de-converting about 3 years ago - I have a friend who simply seems like he can't "move on" after his departure. He's bitter, antagonistic, but starting to move on and explore the depth of being alive ..

 

I suppose I just want to see people heal up .. and no matter how tough you think you need to be as a de-convert, take a look at whether you are trapped behind your walls .. it can be a lonely place to be.

 

I also think might might be a few people here who have the "Don't you dare tell me anything I should or shouldn't do!" attitude. What if the "telling" is simply misinterpreted compassion? ...

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Well personally, I deconverted well over 10 years ago and when I found this site a couple of years ago I found that I had a huge amount of pent up rage and frustration that needed to come out. When I let it out the first few months I was here it was theraputic indeed. You may mean well, but I think you can see by the responses you got that you came across as judgemental. That's ok. We are pretty slow to anger around here and like to try and see things from the other guy's perspective before writing anyone off.

 

I personally stick around here because I like the place. I like to interact with intelligent and open minded people. This place has more than its fair share. I don't spend much time thinking about xianity anymore. I leave that mostly for others unless a subject comes up that I happen to find interesting.

 

I don't think anyone needs to "move on" until they are ready to do so. It seems you are assuming that people here don't indeed move on. The fact is, most people come here for a month or two, rant and get it out of their system and then; well, move on. Other than a case or two, I haven't seen anyone on these boards who has had an unhealthy obsession with their past experiences with religion.

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I didn't realize it sounded like I was telling people to stop writing angry words .. if it does - forget it. Of course its healthy, and normal etc. to vent/rant, but like Dave said - we can move on and live again.

 

I suppose my position comes out of de-converting about 3 years ago - I have a friend who simply seems like he can't "move on" after his departure. He's bitter, antagonistic, but starting to move on and explore the depth of being alive ..

 

As with any other change in life, at first it's very emotional, but there comes a time when one needs to move on and start taking control of their emotions, thoughts, and lives.

 

Just a thought.... could deconversion be compared to the death of a close friend or family member? I think the steps to grieving are, in order; shock, denial, guilt, anger, depression, resignation, and finally acceptance.

 

Problems can arise if one gets stuck in any one of those steps.

 

I also think might might be a few people here who have the "Don't you dare tell me anything I should or shouldn't do!" attitude. What if the "telling" is simply misinterpreted compassion? ...

 

Some people have been told what to believe their whole life. Now that they are starting to think on their own, they have a reaction to someone telling them what to do. It's understandable.

 

On that "misinterpreted compassion".... this medium is cold in that it's hard to get across the actual feelings and/or intent of the author. Writing styles and emotions don't always come across as intended. People are always adding more to what I say than I ever intended. That's not good or bad and I'm not complaining, that's just the way things are.... it's also something I could work on. :grin:

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I'm not slow to anger, at least when it comes to certain hot buttons.

 

Fretbuzz, if you really want to offer compassion, you need to understand where people are really coming from here. You need to understand that many of us have wasted decades of our lives in a religion that crushed our very souls. You need to understand that many of us have been abused, manipulated, dismissed, denigrated, and used in ways no human being should be used by any other.

 

You also need to understand that it is NOT compassionate to lecture to religious survivors about what we "ought" to be doing. You may couch it in terms of "encouraging [us] to examine [our] motivations", or hoping we "move on", or explaining that you really only wish the best for anybody... but if there's one thing I've learned in my lifetime, it's that people who tell me to "move on" or examine my motivations really don't have my best interests at heart. They're more interested in telling me what I ought to do with my life than in trusting me to know what I need to do and say and how I need to process my feelings. They are generally more interested in their opinions than they are in my needs.

 

I have had so much of that kind of sickly sweet condescension in my life that I'll readily confess that it's the shortest path to my shortest fuse now.

 

I seriously hope that, in your case, your post here is simply a poorly-expressed but genuine wish for healing. What little I have seen of your posts so far suggests that you do mean well. But please, in future, spare the gentle lectures on how much "hatred" there is here. Ask yourself how disregarded and dismissed you would feel, if you'd been through something extremely painful and damaging, and all you heard from people was how full of hate you were and how you needed to "move on" (or Move On's™ more irritating cousin, Just Get Over It™ ).

 

That said: if you really do want to show me that you do have my best interests at heart, then you need to just simply LISTEN. Listen to what people have to say, and offer empathy. This is a place for the support of ex-Xians, and I can't tell you how wonderfully healing it is to have someone actually understand what I've gone through, instead of giving me suggestions on how to heal. (If I want suggestions on healing, I'll ask for them directly.)

 

Thank you for reading.

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I really hate when anyone tells others how they should and should not feel. It is unhealthy and unproductive to be "happy, happy, joy, joy" all the time(like a Christian android). When you go through something traumatic it is okay to be angry and even hate. It is called being human. Eventually, you rise up out of it and everything is okay. Better that then wind up spraying people to death with an UZI.

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... I also think might might be a few people here who have the "Don't you dare tell me anything I should or shouldn't do!" attitude. What if the "telling" is simply misinterpreted compassion? ...

 

 

Yeah, most people hate unsolicited advice, especially when it deals with how one "ought to" think or feel. It comes across as condescending.

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Ok - I'll finish my thoughts this way then:

 

1) Yes, I want healing for people

2) Yes, this medium is indeed difficult to express my intension

3) Yes, you are free to continue to be pissed off against anything that reminds you of Christianity .. including people, ideas, whatever - your call.

4) For people who are sick of being judged, it's strange that some of you have decided to judge me, and even put words into my mouth that I haven't said .. do you wish I said these things to make you more pissed off and get a real battle going?

 

The tough-guy "I'm gonna shit all over you, judge you, and treat you as an outcast" if you sound at all like you have ANY courtesy towards Christians, is no different than the religion you are trying to de-convert from. Trading bullying for bullying?

 

I hope your path leads you to a full, rich life - when you are ready - and I mean that. I too am an ex-christian, feel delighted to be here and read so much of how I felt (and still feel) about leaving the religion. If you want to talk about this any further, feel free to email me. I'll leave this thread alone now.

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Thread title: "There is much hatred here. Examine your heart...

 

No, I don't think anyone put any words in your mouth. Your words, not ours. But now you just sound like a condescending asshole.

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Yeah dude, bad choice of words. I can kind of understand where you're coming from, but my strict christian upbringing forced me to go through years of introspection to avoid becoming a complete headcase, and I KNOW there are other members here who have been hurt far worse than I have by the way their christian upbringing fucked up their head. Occassionally I have tried the "cool your jets" approach, but soon came to realize I wasn't being very empathetic to the plight of others. One thing you have to realize coming onto a site like this is that some people are really hurt, and understandibly pissed off. Being a support group, you can't expect these people people to be all puppy dogs and rainbows all the time. You just have to let them vent out what's eating them alive, and most of the time the monster that's eating them alive is going to be quite ugly.

Actually I think your head's in the right place, but i think you just made a bad choice of words that set off some of the more sensitive members here. I think the best thing to do would be to admit to being a fool (ALL the ex-c members here feel like fools, to a degree, for ever accepting christianity to begin with) for choosing words that came off sounding condescending.

At a glance, yes, many members may seem hateful, but there's a looooonnnng history here, and if you spent some time digging through the archives trying to extract the real meaning behind the so-perceived hateful words, you might begin to see where we're coming from.

Just trying to be the peacemaker, my friend.

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Hey FretBuzz, I got yer love right here pal!

 

LOL

 

Jus' kiddin' dude. I think all are agreed that there is a certain amount of anger here. I think hatred might be a bit of a mischaracterization though. Several Christians have come here and attempted true dialog and no one hates them at all. I mean, for example, CurrentChristian bugs the CRAP outta me some times, but I don't hate him.

 

Geeze, now I gotta go find a thread where I can go off on someone. I'm feeling all sickly sweet and everything.

 

heh

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First, I'd like to say the big letters at the top of the page may give an indication to Christians that their views will not be accepted here. Though, usually they ignore them and evangelise to us as though we haven't heard their speil a milllion times before.

 

Second, The names of the subforums: "The Lion's Den" "The Arena" "The Colloseum" should give an indication to Christians that they may face some criticism, also "expect heated responses" is another very good indicator to Christians how the discussions will go.

 

Third. With all the ample warnings Christians should get coming to the site, if they can only read, many let loose on them because we can't vent our frustrations to Christians in real life.

 

Last but not least, I feel the love from the wonderful friends I have here and am encouraged and supported more on this site than I had ever been in any church that I'd attended.

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It's true, all too many people ANYWHERE are motivated by hate, which is a sub-emotion (as it were) of fear. Fear is what causes fundamentalism, prejudice, harassment, all of it.

 

Now when I first got out of Christianity, all I could think about was how to stop them. How to keep them from getting into my brain and from getting into others' brains and to stop their religion from existing forevermore. My goal was to eradicate it because it bothered me personally.

 

Every step I took was full of the motivation against Christianity and its followers. I bit and swore at them, made fun of them, made inconveniences for them, tried to make their lives harder and tried to get them to suffer in their faith just like I did. I wanted them to feel bad. But if any one of them tried to act friendly and forgiving towards me........whoa! Don't play that card with me; now you're shaking my faith - my belief that you're an asshole. Stop acting so nice and intelligent, damn it! You're ruining my crusade.

 

Some people never grow out of that, in the same way that some people never grow out of saying "N'uh" and jumping up and down like idiots when they're excited. (My father comes to mind.......) Some people really do spend the rest of their lives forcing a good bit of their energy towards fighting an enemy whose very existence drives them insane. Even if they find a believer who's got a heart of gold, the very picture of tolerance and universalism......They get upset because this throws them a curveball. They either claim that the person is not a "true believer" or that they really are shit inside.

 

Now there are some Christian fundies who do show up and get the sour treatment. They pretty much ask for it. It's like walking into a Pakistani madrassa and announcing "Allah is dead, find meaning in Christ". What do you think is going to happen? Are they going to start kissing the messenger's feet for bringing them salvation? Or are they going to slaughter that Western missionary's ass?

 

I did grow out of it. I suppose there are certain churches and denominations that will always leave a bad taste in my mouth because of my experiences there, but a lot of my ire is saved for those who genuinely promote a literal, fire-and-brimstone theology or political religion. (Or Scientology.) But seriously, Christians don't bother me so much anymore. I'm still seriously bothered by missionaries for all sorts of reasons, even as a Christian I didn't like them. I prefer the Buddhist style of missionary work - build a temple in the city and then wait for people to come to you. And if Christians did just that (and no knocking on doors, no tracts, no community service with strings attached) I have to say that I really would not mind it. I don't demand to know a person's religious beliefs as soon as I know them, and I don't demand that they know mine as well.

 

All in all my position on Christianity is that I do not support it - but I'm not out to directly oppose it, either.

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This guy turned traitor on me! I welcomed him so gladly just because he's a Mennonite. And what does he do? He starts lecturing. What in the world did I read wrong? That is what I'm searching my brain for. I'm pretty good at picking out the xians and not falling for their bait. What did I miss here? And finally I realize what I saw in the original post: He left the church for love.

 

That's just so absolutely twisted but I over-looked it. He does say there is no god. I guess people who are genuine and sincere in reaching out to others, in giving them the benefit of the doubt, are going to get burned sometimes. That's what happened here.

 

Somewhere someone mentioned the "monster that eats us alive." Frettbuzz, you look like a half-eaten morsel of this monster's meal. I can only hope that you wake up from your religious stupor before you're totally eaten up, but the chances are slim to none at this point. Better grab the chance while you've got it.

 

I rather doubt that you're reading this thread anymore. Probably figured out what's good for a fake and left the forum. Can't say I mind. The self-righteous crap you posted on this thread is like pouring gas on a fire.

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I suppose my position comes out of de-converting about 3 years ago - I have a friend who simply seems like he can't "move on" after his departure. He's bitter, antagonistic, but starting to move on and explore the depth of being alive ..

That's too bad. I de-converted too about 3 years ago, and I'm becoming less angry of what happened. I regret some things I did, and that I spent so much time in the delusion, but only a year ago I couldn't even listen to a Christian song without being upset, and now it doesn't bother me as much. I feel sorry for your friend.

 

I suppose I just want to see people heal up .. and no matter how tough you think you need to be as a de-convert, take a look at whether you are trapped behind your walls .. it can be a lonely place to be.

Absolutely. We need to heal up. And that's what this site is for. The process of healing. So the bitterness, rants and whatnots has to be here, that's part of the healing.

 

I also think might might be a few people here who have the "Don't you dare tell me anything I should or shouldn't do!" attitude. What if the "telling" is simply misinterpreted compassion? ...

True. But never judge. Because then you've lost the connection you hoped to get.

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If you don't like it, don't read it. There are hundreds of sites out there. This is a support group for people who have left the faith, not to preach at them. What perhaps you do not realize is that many here were treated extremely badly, and in some cases, physically abused. It is natural for people who have been hurt to feel anger.

 

It is NOT wrong to be angry at people, despite what the cult teaches. Emotions are neither good nor evil, they just are. You cannot assign morality to something like an emotion. You can't stop people from feeling what they feel, short of giving them a labotomy.

 

Not to mention, NOT dealing with that anger is unhealthy. Bottling it up and pretending to be a shiny happy person is not good for people. They have to get that anger out somehow.

 

It is far better for people to go to a site like this and vent safely then to do something they would regret in real life (or maybe not regret, but that would land them in jail), IMHO.

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Uhh, I've examined my heart and I know full well not only do I HATE, but I really fuck'n hate some things. You say this like it's a bad thing?

 

I hate manipulation I hate Liars and fear mongerers. I hate con-artists who suck people dry of life savings, I hate Unjust or lopsided justice. The Christian Church capitalizes on my Top 5 Things I hate it is only logical to conclude that I hate the Christian Church. The trauma and pain they cause not only people but families as well is yet another reason among a endless list why the Religion reaps what it sows. The Emotional Mind fucking the cult does to people should be enough in and of itself to actually understand why people Hate it so much. Maybe one could come down off their highhorse and walk among the commoners to see this?

 

Perhaps you've had your reasons for leaving the dogma and that's all fine and well, there are others here who's lives have been all but destroyed from the cult, Perhaps the deeper people were sucked in emotionally or have witnessed their family be sucked in, the stronger the resentment.

 

I know you've 'left' the thread.. but for the record I'd like to state YES we do Hate, and it IS because we HAVE had the courage to examine our hearts that we are able to better express this emotion that is forcefully stifled in the Cult. So YES I HATE the cult, and I wont apologize for it. For thoes of you who are offended by my personal Stance and Personal hatrid, You've earned the One finger salute. :Wendywhatever:

 

 

PS. I'm glad this was posted in Rants. / Rant off

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