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Kt45/taylork45 Vs. Catholicforlife


KT45
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well i recently got into a debate with a catholic on youtube. He posted on my video called "Historical Proof Of Jesus". Before I write down the current debate I wanted to comment on something. At one point he seemed to attack evolution but I also thought catholics believed in it? Secondly it seems that theist always use the exact same arguments over and over. Watchmaker, pascal's wager, no reason to live without god, lovey dovey jesus etc. Anyway here we go. Please critique my Anti-evangelical tactics for me Thanks!

 

http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all...v%3DlRbWPNEz19A

catholicforlife (2 days ago)

Hello,

 

Well I would just like to say that Jesus is very real. I see Him and hear Him once in a while. But I didn't always believe. It takes faith.

 

Remember though, faith is a gift.

 

So why not ask God for faith in His Son Jesus Christ now.

KT45 (2 days ago)

I have a question. How do you honestly talk to something you don't believe in without insulting your intelligence. I'll ask God for faith when you write to santa for a gift

catholicforlife (2 days ago)

Well think about this since you can't give God a chance. Everyone used to think the world was flat. It took someone taking a look for themselves to see if it really was. Nobody believed the earth was round until Gallelio showed it to them. You are in unbelief but I'd like to show you that He is real. Send me a message, I will respond.

KT45 (2 days ago)

Just sent you a message

 

Okay so now we are out of the ordinary youtube comment box and we are passing messages using youtubes email....

 

KT45

You talked in a comment to me on a vid I made called Historical Proof of Jesus. You said I won't give god a chance which is not true. I asked how it is possible to talk to something that isn't real or you don't really believe is real. If I told you to talk to santa would you do it? I know this is a strange question but to me this is how your comment sounds. Well anyway you said you would help me believe. So go ahead.

 

Thanks,

Ken

catholicforlife

Dear Ken,

 

I have a belief that you have heard alot about God but everything have been kept at a distance from you. In other words, you have been observing the things that matter. Believing in God is a two way street. To believe in God takes both a person assistance and God's gift of faith. Well the assistance that I mean is that you can take a leap of faith and pray. I know this sounds difficult but it won't be too much for you to do. All you have to do is kneel down and ask God to give you faith. You can ask Him yourself. I will ask Him for you also but God will not force you to pray. You have to take the chance and make the effort.

 

The Lord is waiting and will not dissapoint you brother.

 

I love you and I hope that you feel his presence.

 

May God grant you his gift of life.

 

I will put you in my prayers from now on,

your brother,

Ben

KT45

Thanks for your comments. I guess you should have a background on me first. If you notice on my page I am an ex-christian. I became born-again at the age of 10 and then became a born again atheist at the age of 20. I had plenty of faith as a child. I was always the most studious one I knew. I was always nice and quite and kept up with my studies and read the bible and could recite passages very easily. I prayed constantly and believed I was talking to God through Jesus. I won't get into the details but after a few courses in college I began to study even more because I learned so much. It didn't bring me closer to God though, instead more questions came up so I studied more. Eventually my faith in the bible died. I didn't know where it went. I prayed to God and got no answers. I understood that god answers usually saying "yes", "no" or "wait" but I realized the problem in thinking this way (I can explain more if need be). Eventually my faith in God died as well.

 

Anyway, as an ex-christian, I've done all the things you've said. I've tried praying and even getting annointed by a pastor but to no avail. I now regard faith as being purely dishonest to myself. Jumping to believe in something just isn't possible. Honestly, do you want me to pretend to believe in God for a second? Because that is what I'd be doing if I prayed to a god. I'm not trying to being rude but that is all I can do. When you say "take a leap of faith" too me you are saying just believe for a second that God is real. I'm not sure if you understand but its not possible. In reality its like me telling you to "take a leap of faith" and pray to Zeus. You can say you'll do it but the only thing you'd be doing is pretending. Again I'm not trying to be rude, I just want you to see my point of view. I can't just have faith, I can't suspend what I believe.

 

Everything in life I don't have faith for. I need evidence before I can believe something. Even things like love I need evidence of. This can include getting hugs, attention, caring body language. These are physical signs showing me that love is there. I can't think of any cases where I have faith in something so why in something that can't be proven? And people also have faith in other gods. They took a leap of faith like you said but toward a different god. If believing in things based on faith can lead you down so many paths then why even bother with it? Please answer my questions on faith or at least give me evidence for the christian god.

 

thanks,

Ken

catholicforlife

Dear Ken,

 

I want to tell you something about Jesus. Historical proof of Jesus is simply in the bible. I know that you may not understand what I mean but try to listen to my explanation. The bible was written about Jesus by people who knew Him or at as in the old testament, were waiting for Him to come. The old testament can prove that Jesus is the Son of God in one major way. It is filled with profecies of a savior who was to come. It describes what he would be: he would suffer for the sake of his people. It foretells many things about Jesus brother. Could you get out your bible and listen to what God has said through the prophets. open to Isaiah 52; 13-15 and then continue trhough chapter 53. This prophecy (which means a prediction of things to come) is fulfilled perfectly in the life of Jesus Christ. He, the suffering servant, was to come and die for the sake the salvation of the world.

 

God's existance can be proven in other ways Ken. I want you to try to listen to this:

 

Imagine that I was walking along the seashore one day. The beach was full of sand and the waves were gently coming in along the shore.

 

Suddenly I was startled to see a large box, made of sand. It had four corners and a big button in the middle, all made of sand. So I pushed the button and you know what happened? It actually moved in a circle.

 

Then some man came over to me and said "this machine came into existance by the effect of the waves along the beach. It took many many years but now it has come into existance all by chance."

 

A working machine with a button that can move when you press the button, all made of sand, and it works. Would you beleive that?

 

Ken this story is about God. The machine is the earth. But you see, the earth is about a billion trillion times more complicated than that simply machine. Who can dare say that anything so wonderflly created came about without a creator? How awesome is existance. You need simply look in a mirror to see the image of God. And you know, we are a billion trillion times more complicated than the earth is...

 

Can the clay say to the potter "why have you made me this way?"

 

sincerely,

your brother

I was kinda upset because he didn't answer my question on faith. So if I get more rude you'll understand

KT45

I will do your responses in sections

 

1. "Historical proof of Jesus is simply in the bible"

Sorry but no. All the gospels in the new testament were written 30+ years after Jesus' supposed death. If I and 12 other guys saw a man who was God and proved it I'd write it down immediately. heck if I saw a man ascend into the sky with 400 other people, I'd write it down quickly. If I couldn't write I'd hire a scribe to write for me. The problem is that the is no cotemporary evidence for Jesus Christ. None. If you can find any please let me know. When a supernatural events enter a story of someones life, the evidence for that person must be even stronger so it won't be considered a myth. Jesus doesn't stand the test.

 

2. "The old testament can prove that Jesus is the Son of God in one major way. It is filled with profecies of a savior who was to come."

No you are wrong. there were many prophecies he didn't fulfill. If you want I can list them for you. You may say that he will fulfill them later but the messiah was told to fulfill the prophecies in his lifetime and Jesus didn't match the criteria. One criteria is that he must be a descendant of King David through his fathers blood line as is Jewish custom. He doesn't fit the criteria. The old testament also says that Numbers 23:19: God is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor the son of man, that He should repent. Would He say and not do, or speak and not confirm?

Therefore god can't come down as a man in flesh.

 

3. "It took many many years but now it has come into existance all by chance." A working machine with a button that can move when you press the button, all made of sand, and it works. Would you beleive that?"

No I wouldn't believe that. This sounds as likely as a supernatural being making people out of DIRT and breath!!! Clearly your argument is a stab at evolution. The problem is that the things you mentioned are inorganic material and you said they came about by chance of all things! Your argument is basically saying that everything is so complex that it must need a creator. But that creator must be as complex or more complex than his creation. Therefore you must apply the equation of complex thing needing a creator to the creator itself. Now you might say, "No, god doesn't count he as always existed". Let's just cut the supernatural out of the equation and say matter has always existed. There aren't any cases today of a supernatural being creating anything. The natural as we can see today always creates the natural. Why even humor the idea of a supernatural creation creating anything?

 

4. "You need simply look in a mirror to see the image of God."

No when I look in the mirror I see my father. No not my some supernatural being but my biological father and bits of my mother. I wasn't created in the image of God but instead by the biological makeup of my parents!

 

5. "Can the clay say to the potter "why have you made me this way?""

Can the pottery talk? If so then yes. If the "potter" gave the pottery the ability to ask questions and wonder about its existence and the world then of course it should. The potter should be ashamed if it didn't!

 

I'm still waiting on your response about faith in my last message but I have a feeling you aren't listening at all....Please answer my first email on faith.

 

Thanks,

Ken

 

this is part 1. I'll continue with the rest later

Please critique my approach. What should I do and what shoudn't I do? Thanks!

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Debate with catholicforlife Part 2

 

Catholicforlife

Ken,

 

I have thought about what you said about if you were one of the people who had been there when Jesus was performing miracles and was raised from the dead, you would have immediately wrote it down, because you wuld have been so amazed.

 

Well that is a very good observation. That is very true thinking for someone like us in the 21t century. During the 1st century though, nobody hardly could even read or let alone write. Only the very very rich could read and write. It was a very different world. Try to put yourself back in that mindset: You are not one of the small 1% who can read and write. the thought would not even come to you to write it down in a situation like that. Ken, you wouldn't think like a 21st century person. You wouldn't even think about the importance of writing in the same way as we do now. Everything that was important in those days was passed on by an oral teaching. Each generations taught the next generation by passing on the important truths by speech. Nothing much was written down. This can be proved by the fact that very little was written about the church as it worshipped and prayed besides the books of the new testament.

 

Now contemporary evidence is a concept that I believe means that someone who experienced what happened writes it down. That is actually the case with the new testament books. The gospels written by matthew and john wre written by the very apostles who walked and saw everything Jesus did. Whether they wrote it as the walked or waited until they had learned to read and write is another issue. Would it fail to be comtemporary evidence if I wrote to you something that happened to me years ago when I was a child? Does it then become some other kind of evidence if I waited unitl later to record it onto paper. All the while telling abut it everyday to everyone who would listen. And the gospels of mark and luke were written by mark, a convert who travelled with peter and listened to all he preached. He recorded all the testimony of peter's experience. Luke was also a convert, a doctor by profession, who made thourough interviews with all who had known Jesus and seen his miracles. He wrote it all down after the interviews. When a news reporter writes a story after interviewing everyone, does it fail to be comtemporary evidence just because the news reporter was not actually there himself? But all the source material is from true witnesses.

 

Do you think that they were all liars? All these poor people who had been healed of diseases, seen cures and witnessed a someone who could walk on water?

 

Rationally it wouldn't make sense for them to lie Ken! Because later, in the persecutions that they endured, these people were willing to die rather than renounce their belief in God.

 

What reason did a fisherman have to go out and begin preaching that someone had risen from the dead and that he has seen him himself? He was beaten for this, imprisoned and tortured. Why should he preach this? And this was a simple poor fisherman who had never learned to read or write but had met someone who could heal all diseases and give life to the dead before his very eyes. And many people believed in Jesus befroe he died. How many more Ken, have believed after He had risen from the dead? The whole world will have heard the message before he comes again.

 

I would like to answer all of your questions but right now I am in a hurry to get ready for church. Lt me ask you about something you said in one of your emails. Can you explain how you heard yes no and wait from God when you used to believe and pray?

 

I am praying that you will be sent aid from on High to rescue you from the confusing propositions of the secular media. I pray Ken, that you will see how faith in Jesus must be rooted in the love we have for each ohter and the thankgiving to God for our very lives.

Okay now I fully realize that he is just preaching at me and won't even answer my questions. anyway here was my response.

KT45

1. "During the 1st century though, nobody hardly could even read or let alone write."

I don't agree but I'll humor you. The distance between the gospel writing is 30 years. It took the church 30 years to get the money to write all this stuff down! Wow you'd think they would be in a hurry. They also could have gotten Paul to write the gospels a lot early since he was a scholar and could write. All they had to do was write a letter to him and ask him to do it. They could have gotten a gentile to do it. Heck if you believe matthew, luke and john actually wrote the gospels (or hired scribes) they could have done it easily. this is an age where people were writting down everything. Sorry thirty years is too big of an excuse.

 

2. "Does it then become some other kind of evidence if I waited unitl later to record it onto paper."

I'm sorry but when its about supernatural evidence the scrutiny must be harder. For any normal historical person this might be fine but thirty years to write about a man who could go into the sky, raise the dead etc. Also the bible says the dead rose when Jesus died and many saw them. Their is NO secondary source claiming this and there should be because there were pharisees and greeks who would write such a feat. Also for Jesus' birth there was a astrological sign. Of course astrologist from around the world would have been writing this down on the same exact day. There is no evidence of this either.

 

3. "Rationally it wouldn't make sense for them to lie Ken! Because later, in the persecutions that they endured, these people were willing to die rather than renounce their belief in God."

Actually it is rational. People die for beliefs and messages all the time. The Gnostics believed in a spiritual Jesus and not a physical one but they died for that belief as well.

 

4. "Can you explain how you heard yes no and wait from God when you used to believe and pray? "

sure. If what I prayed for actually happened then I got a yes. if what I prayed for had no chance of happening it was a no. Everything else was a wait. I was satisfied with this until I found out that you get the same results when you pray to a hunck of wood as when you pray to God. Because no matter what your answer will always be yes no and wait!

 

His response

Catholicforlife

Dear Ken,

 

I can see that you have come up with many arguments for not believing in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. There was and still is evidence of a kind that you have in your sight. Has anything the power, lasting ability and convincing effect of the good news about Jesus? How can the work of twelve poor and ignorant men have changed the world so much? Haven't you noticed that belief in Jesus has only grown more and more thoughout time? It has never grown less. It has grown more and more. And the gospel message in the bible also tells that before the return of the son of man, the gospel will have been preached to all the ends of the earth. How could that have been predicted and have come true? If you want to classify other Gods as just as good and powerful as God the Father of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, then where is there power?

 

They do not have much power to do what only God the Almighty can do. That is why belief in Him only grows while all else has no lasting or potent power. The muslims believe in God the almighty, the creator of all. Although they do not understand who Jesus is, they are trying to know the One God and honor Him.

 

But where is the power of atheism? It is a flop. The reason why it is a flop is because after a few pitiful years of not knowing what will happen to you on this earth, you die and splat. zip sero nothing, according to their 'belief'. What good is that kind of belief. It has no value. It is also a sham. God does exist and many many people know Him personally. Myself included. Ken people can and do talk with God! Although you didn't have much of a prayer experience when you were a teenager, does that disprove that God talks with people? That does not disprove anything. If God tells me that he loves me and that I am his child and so many other things, should I stop believing in Him because someone else has no faith? Well of course not. I must say that God is not mocked. He will reward those who love Him with eternal life and those who hate Him with eternal fire. After all, its not that God wants you to suffer, but you won't come to Him and you don't want Him. So you don't get to be with Him, it's your choice. Heaven and Hell are choices we make. But choose God, He is so beautiful! After all, is there anyone who has ever existed as beautiful and as giving as Jesus? There is only love from Him and that love was willing to give up everything for the love he has for us. What else is love but a self sacrfice for someone else. What is more loving than to lay down ones life for a friend? That is giving up not just a little time on the weekend, it is giving up your entire life for someone else. Jesus is the power of Love and that is why He alone is God's son.

 

I think your prayer experience was a beginner's experience. Not to say that it was not valid, because it was. But You gave up not knowing what you had given up. You had given up on Love itself.

 

Jesus still loves you Ken. He wants you to come home. He wants you to give up sin and return to your father's arms. He will embrace you when you return to Him.

 

He will forgive you for all you have said against Him. Jesus said on the cross as he looked upon those who killed Him for doing nothing wrong "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."

 

That is a beautiful love. No human can love like that.

 

Ken I hope God helps you soon because the human heart cannot rest until it rests in Him.

 

God bless you

your brother,

Ben

 

Now I'm sure my arguments have flaws but he doesn't try to refute them. He just moves on to the next apologist tactic he knows. I get a little more rude in this one. But only a little :wicked:

 

KT45

"I can see that you have come up with many arguments for not believing in Jesus Christ as the Son of God."

You just need better arguments

 

"Haven't you noticed that belief in Jesus has only grown more and more thoughout time?"

Christianity spread because of constantine banning other religions and making this religion the only religion. During the dark ages church was law which is a good way to build a strong foundation for a church. Atheism was punishable by death. It has also spread because unlike other religions it is pushed onto people through use of evangelical tactics and fear based dogma.

 

"But where is the power of atheism? It is a flop. The reason why it is a flop is because after a few pitiful years of not knowing what will happen to you on this earth, you die and splat. zip sero nothing, according to their 'belief'. What good is that kind of belief. It has no value."

Atheism is not a belief but a lack thereof. Atheism tells you what I am not and nothing about who I am. What you are saying is that life is pitful without an afterlife. But you are wrong. Knowing that this is the only life I have makes me cherish it more. to me life is percious. To you it is worthless and fleeting and all that matters is the life you don't know exist.

 

"After all, its not that God wants you to suffer, but you won't come to Him and you don't want Him. So you don't get to be with Him, it's your choice."

I've already said you can't choose what you believe in and I gave you examples.

 

"What is more loving than to lay down ones life for a friend?"

Letting them burn when they are crying for you to save them. Oh wait, that's not loving at all :)

Please watch my video here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu7N92sRrT8

 

 

"That is a beautiful love. No human can love like that"

Your wrong. Jesus gave his life for people knowing he would get it back. humans have given there lives for other humans knowing they would never get it back. Which is more loving?

 

I know you don't like answering my questions but please refute this. Thanks!

 

Part 3 coming up later......

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You're doing good great Taylork. The apologist on the other hand is just :repuke: the same old dogma without any understanding of they myth/legend itself.

 

People like this kill any spirituality that is lingering in there by taking the fantastic elements of the story as concrete fact. That's like taking the myth about Icarus flying too close to the sun because the wax on his wings would melt and he would fall to the sea. What good would it do to take this myth as an factual occurance? It would kill any understanding of the meaning. This is what people who spout church-inspired dogma do and it still makes me ill.

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Thanks notblindedbythelight. What makes me more upset is that Catholicforlife isn't even listening to me. It's more like he is preaching at me without any care of what I'm actually writing. He never comments on my points and ignores everything I'm saying. Oh well....

 

Part 3

 

Now in my last set of comments I asked him many question. Some I thought were really thought provoking. I mean I actually sat down and put some energy into these comments. Some were like this.....

 

"That is a beautiful love. No human can love like that"

Your wrong. Jesus gave his life for people knowing he would get it back. humans have given there lives for other humans knowing they would never get it back. Which is more loving?

 

I also ask him to refute something else but he ignores it.....

 

here is a separate email I sent to him that got no response

KT45

Why humor the Idea of a God?

Message: throughout history, supernatural beings like thor, zeus etc have been dismissed because of naturalisitc means. We now know that gods don't create lightning but that it is merely an exchange of electrons. Throughout life we see the natural creating the natural. Plants create plants through natural means. Humans create humans through natural means. Stars are created in natural means from nebulas. No where do we see the supernatural creating anything. Anywere! Tell me anything that is currently created by supernatural means. If there are none, why think that the world came about from supernatural beginnings?

 

Do you believe the bible is 100% true? You keep asking me to accept and believe in Jesus. Now that is all well and good but to accept Jesus, I have to accept the bible and everything it says including talking snakes, talking donkeys, flying firey horses, invisible people with wings that we can't see ect. Do you really expect me to believe all this on a whim? Just by faith? You are asking me to throw reason to the side and believe in things that are similar to most ancient stories! The world in the bible contians so many supernatural events that I would have to conclude that the world in that book and the world you are standing in are too different to be the same. How you simply tell people to just believe?

 

I kinda gave up on the guy when he responed with this

 

CatholicforLife

Ken,

 

You seem so anrgy at the idea of a God who loves us and has given his life for us to save. I don't understand why though.

 

It's like I hear your heart saying that you want to be loved and yet your mind is saying but I don't want to be loved, I want to be in a heated argument. Well I don't know what to say to you about that.

 

I want to ask yu a question. here goes:

 

Just tell me if you like the idea that God created everything and made us so that we would live forever, beautiful and in paradise with no sadness or any evil at all. I want you to just look at the question a bit. Would you be happy with the conclusion that there is someone who loves yuo enough to create you from no existance and to all love you enough to die for you since you turned your own way? Would you like the thought that because this someone loves you so much, more than anyone else, that we will all be brothers and sisters in a kingdom that will never end? A kingdom of peace joy and love.

 

Ken are you against this? Why??? The human heart will never find rest untils it rests in God. I have much more to say to you but you cannot understand because God has blinded your eyes for a season.

 

I am sorry that this is so but I love you! And I want you to find this peace of God that the world cannot give. I have many things I would love to be doing right now but I have decided to see if I can be a help to you.

 

And the reason is this: because the light came into the world but people preffered darkness to light.

 

The Lord is my light

and my salvation.

for I cannot save myself from death, only someone greater than I can. And this someone is God and He is my beloved friend.

Please see the beauty of God.

 

I am praying for you Ken,

with love,

Ben

 

HE REFUTED NOTHING!!!! :vent: He just went straight to the common arguement "Why do you hate a God that loves you" bullshit. And all this time thinking of arguments and wasting precious energy on his ass you KNOW WHAT I DID?!!!! I responded in a nice loving manner. Really I did. The next post is the one that I really like. He hasn't sent a reply back yet and maybe he never will. Its one of my favorite comebacks because it is real. I figured I have to go back and think like a christian to really talk to him. Well here is my last email to the guy. If more come up I'll post em' (well if it actually goes anywhere ;))

 

KT45

Hey Ben :)

 

You said would I like the idea of a God who created me, and loved me and the idea I could live forever surrounded by love with no sadness or evil. Honestly it depends. In church they said we would spend eternity just praising god and stuff. Honestly I couldn't see myself doing that for more than a week straight in church. Not to mention eternity. LOL. But being serious, the idea of living forever isn't a big deal. Life to me seems more precious cause its short.

 

But anyway my big problem with the whole heaven thing is this. Lets say heaven is real and I go there and I find out that my wife is burning forever because she didn't believe. I don't care if heaven is a place with no sorrows I would break down crying. The love of my life is burning forever and this god is just sitting there smiling saying he loves me. I can't see myself just jumping around happy while a loved one is burning. Go see the movie "What dreams may come" for a better description. I imagine hell to be a place of sorrow with weaping and knashing of teeth. People like the idea of going because they will get to see their loved one. Not only will many of them never see them but they are being tormented.

 

I know the christian theology. Christ doesn't put people in hell, he lets them go there. Are you saying you can honestly be happy in heaven knowing that god is letting a loved one burn even though he has the ability to save them? I'm not asking if it is wrong but how would you FEEL? How would you feel if your god let your loved one burn forever? Hypothetically speaking of course. I'm sure most of your loved ones are saved but I'm just curious on how you would view god and if you would honestly forget their sorrow so that you could be happy.

 

Oh and thanks for the convo!

Much Love!

Ken

 

Thanks for reading!!!

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Wow. That guy's so full of shit that he needs to be ripped several new assholes just so he can crap it all out.

 

I'd probably stop arguing apologetics with him and call him on the fact that he hasn't answered a damn question you've posed him, he hasn't paid a damn bit of attention, and he hasn't listened to you at all.

 

My response to, say, this:

 

You seem so anrgy at the idea of a God who loves us and has given his life for us to save. I don't understand why though.

 

Would probably be something along the lines of:

 

You bet your sweet bippy I'm angry: I'm angry at YOU for not paying attention to a damn thing I've said! I'm angry at YOU for doing nothing more than spew out the same senseless, pointless, meaningless apologetics CRAP I've heard a thousand damn times! Either cut the apologetics bullshit and have a REAL, interactive, human conversation with me, or fuck the hell off!

 

But then, that's just me; and I really have no patience for asshattery. You're seriously being way easier on him than I would. I admire your patience, and your answers are great. Too bad he can't actually interact with you for real. But then you're probably not a real human being to him, you're probably just another potential tickmark in his conversion quota.

 

Keep us posted on how it goes.

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:ugh:

Catholicforlife

Hey there Ken,

 

How are you doing these days? I hope that you are doing well. I am doing fine and I just thought I would email you and see if you would like to keep talking about faith.

 

You know what was one of the greatest things that ever happened to me in my life? Well it is when I felt the presence of God within and around me. I know this is hard to explain but let me just give you an example.

 

Imagine that you are walking through yosemite park. And then around a corner (although you don't know what is coming up) you are surprised to be greted by a waterfall. Abeautiful waterfall in fact! Well you are overjoyed because it has been such a hot day and you just can't wait to get close to that water. Well you go into the pool and start to feel so good. Then you move under the waterfall a little and oh! how wonderful it is. The water is just so refreshing to have upon you. This is so great that you just can't imagine what it would have been like if you hadn't found it.

 

Ken, this is my experience with God. I was once a person who did not beleive in Him. In fact, I started beleiving in God just a little before the year 2000. I began to beleive in Jesus in 2001 and just a little after that I felt the power of the holy Spirit in the way I described with the waterfall. I am telling you bro, God is real!

 

He can be found but for me, it took reaching the end of my rope and becoming suicidal. Now I don't want anyone to ever have to go through what I did but thank God because He actaully came to me when I needed HIm most. And you know what, He came to me when I didn't even believe in Him yet. Now that is a good person right there. He Helped me without my even deserving it. He saved me from suicide when I had no one else to save me. That is one of the reasons why I love Jesus.

 

Well you see the problem was that I hated myself and was always thinking about killing myself. This was in 2001. I kinda beleived in God somewhat but maybe I was more of an agnostic. I adn't ever expereinced HIm let alone read the bible much. I didn't pray back in those days. No I just did whatever I liked and to tell you the truth, I did alot of terrible things. I used to have sex with whoever and was addicted to porn. I was in a heavy metal band as the singer and sang very offensive lyrics. Alot of my songs were about there being no God. I am not the person I used to be for sure Ken!

 

Well one night when I wanted to kill myslef most, I couldn't sleep. As hard as I tried, I just couldn't. So there I was at like 3 in the morning with all these thoughts about suicide going through my mind. I was really losing it and was going to slit my wirsts or hang myslef that night.

 

But then I had a thought to turn on my radio and listen to the music to distract me. Well I clicked on the remote and the very first words I heard come out of the radio station wre: "If you want ot kill yourself, don't do it!"

 

Well you have no idea but I just listened to the show for alittle bit. It was a goverment suicide prevention talk show. Well I listened to it for afew minutes and then turned it off. I yelling at the radio angrily saying "I don't want your help! I know what you are going to say. I know you are going to try to talk me out of it and I don't want your help!"

 

So there I was sitting up in bed and starting to lose it again. And then you know what happened? Ken something happened to me that I can't explain. One minute I was freaking out and all of a sudden I looked and the bible was in my hands. I don't know how it got there. And the thing was that when I noticed that it was there I also noticed that I was reading it. I was in mid-sentence reading the bible. I can't explain how it got there. It's like there is a period of time that I can't remember. My mom had given me that bible a few months before but I had just put it on my bookshelf. It had dust on it. So well I just kept reading and then something even more wonderful happened. I felt like I was underneath a waterfall. Now it was like a waterful of peacefullness. It was as if God's power was pouring over me as I read the words. I don't even remember what part of the bible I was reading, all I know is that it was like God was speaking to me saying "receive my peace, receive my peace."

 

Ken since that day I have been on a journey of getting to know God and loving Him. You know how people say that Jesus can save? Well I know this to be true. I would be dea without Him in my life.

 

Ken I hope to hear from you soon.

Your brother,

Ben

 

:vent: Imagine a waterfall my ass!!! Is this guy fucking serious!!? He really doesn't want to talk to me. I mean WTF!? All the other christians I debate, even on this site, at least try to refute me. And even the ones that go for an emotional plea say something that is at least relevant to the previous conversation. But this asshole isn't talking to me at all. HE IS TALKING AT ME!!! What the hell? I've met some mean christians before but at least they listen to me. But this guy seems so self absorbed......ugh.

 

I'm convienced that he doesn't care about me at all, or my make-believe soul. As long as he is witnessing he is happy....

 

Okay I'm done.... :HaHa:

KT45

Hey Ben,

 

Its good to hear from you. Thanks for shedding your past to me. I know that it was hard and you were at a tough point in your life. I'm glad you found something to help you get through it. I don't care if you call to Allah, Krishna, Gaia, Isis, the Goddess or even imagine a make believe friend. As long as it stops you from ending you life then its all good to me. Good job.

 

I'd like to comment about your expirence more but I want to ask you a real question. Do you really want to have this conversation? You may think come across as nice and loving, kinda like Jesus but you are kinda being a jerk. It doesn't seem like you are talking to me Ben. Instead you are talking at me. You aren't responding to what I say and I put a lot of thought into all of my replys. You didn't answer my response on heaven, faith or anything. Instead you ignore what I say and preach at me.

 

You know when I was at church many people would sure love to preach at people. But they wouldn't ever want to talk on a deeper level. If you really want to talk I'll talk. But if you continue to talk at me then its hard for me to respect this conversation. Understand?

 

Much Love,

Ken

 

I figured I'd be nice in my reply since he gave his whole "I almost killed myself" spill. yea.....this convo might be done very soon. So much for christian love. He just likes to hear himself talk.

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Guess who is back.....and finally on topic!!!

Catholicforlife

Hey Ken,

 

I want to apologize. I did not realize that you felt like I was being unloving to you. I never meant to be that way with you. I only wanted to help you with what I had experienced and what I had been blessed with coming to know. Well I promise to try and answer your questions in the best way that I know how. I am sorry to have been rude. I am going to do me best to be someone to help.

 

Let me see, you have some questions about faith in Jesus. Now you said that Jesus doesn't fullfill the profecies of the bible, so I would like to talk to you about this. I beleive he has actually fullfilled every profecy that points tot he messiah.

 

I wonder why you don't beleive that Jesus was from the line of David? There are geneaologies in the scriptures that show how he was from the line of David. So what are you basing your statement on? Those geneologies are very clear to show the His family line. Can you tell me what you think about this in greater detail?

 

God bless your life,

Ben

 

:wicked::wicked::wicked:

KT45

Hey Ben!

 

Its great to get back on topic! Okay so we are discussing the line of David right. Okay so we know that the Messiah must come from the line of David according to 2 Samuel 7:12-13

 

""And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)"

 

Now the Davidic bloodline must come from the biological father. In the gospels we get the bloodline of Joseph. But Joseph isn't the biological father of Jesus since the holy spirit is the father of Jesus! There are even further problems with any attempts to use the Jewish Scriptures to prove Jesus' genealogy through Joseph. For the New Testament claims that Joseph was a descendent of King Jeconiah, who in the Hebrew Bible was cursed to never have a descendent "sitting on the throne of David and ruling any more in Judah" (Jeremiah 22:30). Joseph's genealogy, even if it were transmittable to Jesus, would only serve to further disqualify Jesus as the Messiah.

 

Now you might be tempted to say well he carries the Davidic bloodline through Mary. Well first of all Jewish tradition says that it must be the man who passes on the bloodline, not the woman.

 

1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.

 

*****If you can show me anywhere in the bible where a woman passes on the bloodline instead of the man, please show me.********

 

Then even if you could show that Mary can carry David's bloodline you show even more problems! Even if one could trace one's genealogy through one's mother, there would be the additional problem that Luke 3:31 lists Mary as a descendent of David through Nathan, Solomon's brother, and not through Solomon himself as required according to the prophesy in I Chronicles 22:7-10 of the Jewish Bible.

 

So basically you have problems within the bloodline and a problem with the whole must be from a father thing. Jesus doesn't fulfill the prophecy. Sorry.

 

Much Love,

Ken

 

....Will Catholicforlife find a way to counter my objections.......Or will he give up with his tail between his legs!! Find out on the next episode of "Will KT45 get saved!!!!!?" :Wendywhatever:

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catholicforlife (2 days ago)

Well think about this since you can't give God a chance. Everyone used to think the world was flat. It took someone taking a look for themselves to see if it really was. Nobody believed the earth was round until Gallelio showed it to them. You are in unbelief but I'd like to show you that He is real. Send me a message, I will respond.

 

 

You are doing a great job.

 

What a idiot for even saying this, especially considering that his church imprisoned and persecuted Gallileo.

 

It was Pythagoras in the 6th century BC who first came up with a spherical Earth. The idea that people in the middle ages believed a flat Earth comes from the 19th century, Washington Irving's entirely fictitious book, "The Life and Times of Christopher Columbus". Obviously, he believes fiction.

 

What upset the church was they believed that heaven and god were where the Bible says it is, in the sky. Gallileo proved the church and the Bible wrong.

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Thanks Taph :)

 

Now Catholicforlife is telling me how god talks to him while dodging my question

Catholicforlife

Dear Ken,

 

I just saw your website for the first time here on youtube. I had no idea how deep you were in your disagreement with Christianity as the truth about the love of God revealed in Jesus Christ. I am starting to understand how much you have read about this subject and how deeply you try to speak against christian belief. Well Ken, I must say that I don't understand why anyone would speak against Jesus. But I do know that you must have had some terrible experences to cause you to be so against Him. After all, my Lord is so good that I can see how he can cause others to resist His message.

 

Well with regards to your questions about prophecy, the Lord asked me to not talk to you witht he scriptures as of right now. I am going to do some research first and maybe, If it is His will, I will show you what I come up with. But as for now, I want to just ask you something.

 

Go tell it on the mountian, over the hills and everywhere,

Go tell it on the mountian,

that Jesus Christ is born.

 

I really like that song, don't you?

You know what is so good about that song, It means we have a savior, and he is born unto us. A child is born to save us.

 

We who walk in the shadow of death have seen a great light.

When we die, the Lord will ask us what we have done in life,

we will reply with all truth for we can lie to man, but not to God.

All will be revealed and yes I say all.

 

Why do I tell you this? Because Jesus loves you.

 

Why does Jesus love you? Because He loves all that He has created, even you Ken. Even you with your webpage speaking against Him.

 

Ken, I love you also but I don't know why you are so against a God who loves you.

 

I don't understand the hatred you have for Him and against Him and his ways.

 

I don't know what could cause you to reject someone so loving. Maybe you don't want his love, and you have that right. All must choose whether they want love or hate. Whether they want peace or war.

 

I myslef have a great frined named Jesus and He is so real that you just can't know what I am talking about. I do hope that you can one day see how great He is.

 

I love the God who loves me and who saved me and is saving me.

 

Ben

 

:twitch: yeah......

KT45

Dear ben,

 

I believe the only question for me in your email was "Do you like this song?" The song was go tell it on the mountian. Well yes I do like that song. Its very pretty. I also like this one

 

We all come from the Goddess

And to Her we shall return

Like a drop of rain

Flowing to the ocean.

 

We all come from the Goddess

And to Her we shall return

Born to seek

Seed to form

All that dies shall be reborn

 

I'm pretty sure you can't appreciate songs for other religions like I can but thats okay. I can appreciate music for both of us.

 

Now this is what i want you to do. Since you were kind enough to actually look at my profile (which I told you about in my email talking about my path to ex-christianity that you probably didn't read) I want you to go through your emails and find the one asking you about heaven. Again I put a lot of love into my questions that you keep avoiding.

 

Ben you are seeming even less authentic then I thought. I looked at your page after the first time you commented on mine. I was even nice enough to leave you a comment on your page. For someone who says they love me so much you really don't even try to know me. If your love is even the slightly like christ's love why should I want it? So far you have been insensitive, disconnected, unappreciative and uncaring. You use the word love a lot but I don't see you showing it. It really seems like you are still preaching AT ME instead of listening to me and actually talking to me. Do you really care Ben? This is from the heart. I'm being real. I hope you are actually reading this stuff.

 

Again go to the email about heaven and answer my question.

 

Much love,

ken

 

This is where things get kinda weird

Catholicforlife

Ken,

 

I am sorry that you don't like the way I am. I guess you don't like what you see in me. Well okay thats okay.

 

But why are you emailing me if you don't like the way I talk to you? What is your reason for writing to me?

 

I am saved by Jesus and I love Him. I am not sure if you understand that I know Him really. He is my friend and he loves me for who I am.

 

Why do you email me if you don't like me? Why are you insulting me? Have I insulted you Ken?

 

What have I ever wrote to you that is insulting? If you are insulted by me telling you that God loves you and that Jesus pais the price to save you by giving his life for you then I don't know what to say.

 

I am not sorry for telling you that, and I am glad to be insulted by you for telling you that Jesus loves you. but have I done anything that deserves the insults you have wrote to me?

 

Well anyways, I will be your friend, but please don't insult me anymore Ken.

 

I have never insulted you once.

 

catholicforlife

 

I insulted him. How did I insult him? Did I call him an ass, a dick, or a motherfucker? Oh wait I see the insult. I called him insensitive. :Wendywhatever: Cry me a fucking river.....

 

KT45

You have insulted me. I keep trying to have a conversation with you but you ever comment back. that is insulting. When I put so much work into a response just to have it ignored completely is insulting to my intelligence.

 

I ask you a question. You don't answer

 

I reply to a comment. You ignore it.

 

You say you want to get to know me. You don't even look at my page!

 

Calling you insensitive is not an insult. It is a way for me to describe your actions towards me. Remeber the whole 'you shall know a tree by its fruits" thing. Well thats all I'm doing. its like you really don't want to talk to me and instead you talk at me. I don't care if you say God loves me and Jesus loves me. My father is a pastor and I hear it everyday. That is fine. Say that all you want. But talk to me. Talk to me. Talk to me. Talk to me. Stop preaching and have a damn conversation. Thats it.

 

You ask why I'm still sticking around. It's because I care for you. I used to be just like you. I was hoping that we could have a conversation. I kept wondering when you would actually start talking to me and saying something that actually pertained to what I wrote. But you didn't. But I was patient. I kept waiting and waiting. Now look you still haven't answered my questions at all. You are still talking at me.

 

but look I'm still giving you a chance. If you are truely loving and really care about my opinions then you will go to my email about heaven and read it. Please don't tell me you really were so insensitive that you just deleted it. Please Ben. Show me that Christ love you keep talking about

 

ken

 

THIS IS THE FUNNIEST THING I EVER HEARD. YOU HAVE TO READ HOW HE REFUTES MY BIBLICAL PASSAGES.

 

Catholicforlife

Ken,

 

I want to say I am sorry for not answering your questions in the way that you wanted. I didn't realize that I was insulting you by doing that. I do want to have a converstaion with you but sometimes some of the things you respond with are really hard for me to read. If you want a conversation then here is what I will tell you.

 

Well what you said about prophecy and the line of David is not logical. The main reason is because I know God! You can't make Jesus any less real because you don't think he fullfilled the prophecy! I know HIm and he is my friend. I talk to Him and he is responds to me. What can I say.

 

So that is why I am not going to try to convert you by preaching the bible to you in the way you want to tear down belief in Christ. I know Christ just like they did in the book of Acts Ken. I know him really and I have visions and hear God's voice sometimes and Ken I am not the only person who this happens to.

 

You want to prove to me that Jesus is not real because God can send some people to Hell and others to heaven. Well just because you go to hell and I care about you, does that make God a bad person? No in fact it proves that God reached out to you but you did not receive the gift He offered you. That is your choice Ken! But the choice you are making I beleive is not based on a good look at Jesus. You know, if my family memeber went to hell and I went to heaven, I think that I would be really sad about it. But then again, I would be in heaven and how great would be that of my spiritual Father and my eternal family as opposed to my earthly family. this life is fleeting and vry very short compared with the length of never-ending days. So could I still be happy in paradise forever with my eternal family if I had aloved one in Hell, the answer is yes. Because we would be made to understand in the way of God, who is all knowing and all-powerful.

 

yours truly,

Ben

 

P.S. don't assume I am erasing anything you say to me. I have it all right here. And I have gone back to read your statements more than once. If you don't think I care enough to write to you, then why am i getting out of bed at 2 in the moring to try to salvage our converstation. Ken, God made me get out of bed and send you this email. He told me I was sinning against you because I didn't respond to your email about prophecy. Now how's that for prophecy. =)

 

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

OMFG!!! How the hell! What the fuck! LOL! I'm sorry that I'm being so rude but I really never expected that answer. I'm illogical because he knows God? He clearly isn't getting me saved with that one. he seems like a nice guy but wow. I'm really not sure how to respond.

 

-EDIT-

I just responded and the response should end the conversation. It wasn't going anywhere anyway. I can't even have a good discussion using his logic. Oh well. I'll post it later. Hopefull this will be the end of it. :)

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People like this kill any spirituality that is lingering in there by taking the fantastic elements of the story as concrete fact. That's like taking the myth about Icarus flying too close to the sun because the wax on his wings would melt and he would fall to the sea. What good would it do to take this myth as an factual occurance? It would kill any understanding of the meaning. This is what people who spout church-inspired dogma do and it still makes me ill.

 

Nicely-put :D

 

Good work, Taylork. Talking with serious Xians of any sect is usually taxing, irritating work, no matter how much sense you make.

 

They are still living in fear of their god and wanting desparately to obey and placate him, despite every fact they are met with. Until they can get over that innate fear, the fear that is woven into every Xian injunction, it's nigh impossible to make an inch of progress with them.

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