Is it right to ban ... ?

[webmdave]

By Dave, the WM

 

Smoking in public areas has been outlawed in several States in the US and in many countries around the world. This past November, the citizens of my home state — Ohio — voted to ban all public indoor smoking throughout the state. Smoking is not allowed in stores, restaurants, bars, places of business, clubs or within shouting distance of doorways to any public establishment, private or otherwise.

 

So it is written, so let it be done.

 

This isn't a rant about smoking, by the way, but eventually I'll make my point.

 

Smoking has been part of American heritage and history for perhaps thousands of years. Native Americans are frequently credited with discovering and harvesting the tobacco plant, and with inventing the practice of smoking. Smokers claim that enjoying a cigarette, cigar or pipe, helps facilitate a quiet moment of rest and relaxation. Some say it aids digestion. Many would be hard pressed to make it through the day without a smoke. For certain Native Americans, smoking even holds a religious significance.

 

But some people absolutely hate smoking.

 

Here’s an interesting tid-bit from Wikipedia:

Pope Urban VII’s 13 day papal reign included the world’s first known pubic smoking ban (1590), as he threatened to excommunicate anyone who “took tobacco in the porchway of or inside a church, whether it be by chewing it, smoking it with a pipe, sniffing it in powdered form through the nose.”

Of course everyone knows that smoking presents health risks to people. I know it only too well. My uncle smoked like a chimney his entire life and his nasty habit finally took its tool on him, robbing him of reaching his 80th birthday. My mother has been smoking like a fiend for the past 60 years and it’ll probably keep her from reaching her 85th. My grandfather was never seen without a lit pipe in his mouth, and he passed away of complications unrelated to smoking at 92.

 

OK, I realize my family genetics in regards to smoking isn’t everyone’s. While in my family smoking doesn’t seem to be a big killer, in fact, is considered as dangerous as chewing gum. However, in many other families, smoking has been devastating. That fact that smoking has deleterious effects on thousands of people’s health is well documented. Only a fool would argue with the mountain of medical statistics throwing aspersions on partaking of demon tobacco.

 

Still, smoking is not illegal. It is considered every adult’s individual right to enjoy smoking or not. What the ban is all about is keeping the possibly harmful side effects out of public areas where the smoke might affect a non-smoker’s health. And that's just fine with me.

 

OK, now on to Christianity.

 

Many people claim that their "faith" gives them a sense of hope and purpose. They say that without their belief in Jesus, Mary, or whomever, they’d find it difficult to get through the day. Religion has a calming effect on their lives, provides peace, and perhaps above all, helps them believe that everything is right in the world.

 

That's what they say.

 

History is rife with stories of torture, killing, war, even genocide, all in the name of religion. Christianity's history is chock full of Christians doing harm to people in the name of GOD. This cannot be refuted. It is way too easy to brush away history by saying that nNone of them were "True Christians™." Perhaps all those smokers, dead from emphysema and heart failure, were simply not "True Smokers™." True Smokers only acknowlege good things from smoking. True Christians only acknowledge good things from Christianity.

 

Just as True Smokers might feel offended or marginalized when asked to keep their grey cloud out of public areas, True Christians feel marginalized when asked to keep their hell-fire religion out of public politics. Smoking can rob a person of good clean air, but Christianity can rob a person of the ability to think. Smoking can shorten a person's life span, but Christianity can take away the ability to even pursue a full life. Smoking constricts the lungs while Christianity constricts everything else.

 

Being a Christian is a person's choice, just like being a smoker is a choice. Neither is illegal, and I wouldn't suggest that either should be. What people do in private is their own affair. What I would like to suggest is that forcing other people to accept and tolerate and respect and remain quiet and never criticize and even love my rancid cigar smoke in public areas would be, at the very least, rude and obnoxious. Today's Christianity seems intent on rallying political support in order to force other people to accept and tolerate and respect and remain quiet and never criticize and even love their Jesus. And that, I believe, is at the very least, rude and obnoxious.

 

Should religion be banned from polluting the public domain and influencing pubic policy in the same way that smoking is being banned from polluting the public domain and influencing public health?

 

What do you think?

 

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2007/02...ime-to-ban.html

[Dave]

....Should religion be banned from polluting the public domain and influencing pubic policy in the same way that smoking is being banned from polluting the public domain and influencing public health?

 

Can it? Someone smoking next to me pollutes the air I want to breathe. Someone with a religion standing next to me does not pollute anything. A Congressperson can leave their tobacco at the door, but can they leave their religion there too?

 

For many they could no sooner leave their religion at the door as their leg. It's part of who they are. Don't get me wrong (happens often though), I firmly support a stout wall of separation between church and state, but how could someone prevent a religious belief from influencing someones way of thinking. You can prevent that way of thinking from coming law with that wall of separation, but stopping it from being an influence. I don't know.

 

Can we do the same with religion that we've done with tobacco? I don't really know. Should we? I don't think so.

[Ouroboros]

Smoking is not allowed in stores, restaurants, bars, places of business, clubs or within shouting distance of doorways to any public establishment, private or otherwise.

"Private" too? Not even in your own home or in your backyard?

 

Sidetrack here, is the nicotine patch and gum just as dangerous and addictive as lets say a pipe or a cigar?

 

And what about having a BBQ and a fire pit in your backyard, does that smoke cause cancer too? Especially the chemically treated logs that burn for 3-4 hours?

 

If smoking should be banned even in private because it's a nuisance in public, then Christianity should be banned all together too, with all religions that are annoying to me. Fair should be fair.

[Dave]

"Private" too? Not even in your own home or in your backyard?

 

I read something, somewhere, about banning smoking in your own home if children are present. Don't recall what came of it.

 

If smoking should be banned even in private because it's a nuisance in public, then Christianity should be banned all together too, with all religions that are annoying to me. Fair should be fair.

 

How are you going to tell if someone is religioning in public? A blank, empty, mindless, stare?

[white_raven23]

I'm not on the ban smoking bandwagon anymore. Removing it from most public places should have been enough. I was sufficiently happy about that. But now I see commercials encouraging children to tell their parents to 'take it outside', and even commercials that go so far as to compare an adult smoking in their car with the kid in the backseat on the same par as a child abuser.

 

Fucking enough! You don't want smoking in public places? Fine. But these new commercials turn smokers themselves into social pariahs! Kid's telling their parents not to smoke? If I'd told my parents what to do, I would have received a long 'invitation' to stay in my room (which didn't have a tv, vcr/dvd, computer, or gaming console).

 

And it makes a real lie out of that "hate the smoking not the smoker" caveat.

 

There are a lot of things in this world that are bad for you. Junk food is bad for you. Fast food...bad for you. Skydiving....potentially bad for you (dangerous fun). Religion...bad for you.

 

Taking all the things that are "bad for you" out of life has the potential for taking all the FUN and enjoyment out of life too!

 

And human beings have proven time and again that they will always go TOO FAR if their social groups allow it. It happened when anti-semitism was tolerated in Europe several times. American christian fundementalism has gone too far too, but what stops the rest of US from going too far? Absolutely NOTHING. A lot of harm can happen in the name of a 'good cause'. Just like the persecution of tobbacco smoking shifting from the smoke...to the smoker.

 

Sure....smoking (and religion) is bad for you. But what happens to those personal freedoms we cherish so much when the activities we apply them to are taken away? How much personal freedom do we really have then? And what would stop us from unknowingly handing those freedoms away in the name of preserving stupid people from endangering their minds, or their bodies?

[mwc]

Religion and smoking are entirely two different things. Apples and oranges. So banning religion the same as smoking doesn't make sense.

 

However, as religion deals with sin and smoking has a "sin" tax. I think religion should be taxed at the same rate as cigs, alcohol and the rest of those "sin" related items. It's not quite the same but I say "close enough."

 

mwc

[Ouroboros]

"Private" too? Not even in your own home or in your backyard?

 

I read something, somewhere, about banning smoking in your own home if children are present. Don't recall what came of it.

Yeah, I think it was a lawsuite. A kids sued his mom or something.

 

If smoking should be banned even in private because it's a nuisance in public, then Christianity should be banned all together too, with all religions that are annoying to me. Fair should be fair.

 

How are you going to tell if someone is religioning in public? A blank, empty, mindless, stare?

Yup. That'll do it.

 

It's interesting to see that Hitler was also anti-smoking.

[Dave]

It's interesting to see that Hitler was also anti-smoking.

Here's a 10 year old Hitler in the making.

[Ouroboros]

It's interesting to see that Hitler was also anti-smoking.

Here's a 10 year old Hitler in the making.

Yup. It's an evil kid with his evil mom. (I wonder how he hides his horns?)

 

You know what, I hate it when my neighbour BBQ, the smell must be very dangerous for me and for my 10 year old Hitler in the making. I think we should outlaw anything that smells bad. If it smells bad, it must be bad.

 

Still I haven't heard any explanation why nicotine patches and gum are any safer or less addictive? Do they have the warning label too? Is secondhand "chewing" (transfer through kissing maybe) also a risk of mouth cancer? Or secondhand touching on the skin where the patch were also a danger?

 

From what I read somewhere is that it's not the nicotine is the reason to the addiction, but not what causes the cancer, but it's the other 10,000 chemicals in cigarettes (bleach, glue etc) that are the real dangers in the smoke. Is there any truth to this?

 

(And Dave, don't get me wrong, I'm not a supporter of smoking in public or around kids. I just think it's gone to far when you private life at home, outside on the patio is controlled by the government.)

 

Oh, I just found out that nicotine exists in small amounts in tomato, potato, eggplant (aubergine), and green pepper, and nicotine alkaloids are also found in the leaves of the coca plant. Hmm.... will we see potato smokers soon?

 

Religion can be dangerous too, and (I don't remember the number) hundreds of kids are dying each year because they don't get treated, and the reason is religious beliefs. Probably even more people are dying each year because they have a treatable illness, but they refuse because they believe in some miracle workers prayers. Charlatans and dangerous faith that kills people is just as bad for us all and for kids, and should be stopped.... or should freedom reign?

[Dave]

Yup. It's an evil kid with his evil mom. (I wonder how he hides his horns?)

Of course we know the kids not a Hitler, but what are we, as a society, teaching kids? If you don't like something you should have it banned?

 

You know what, I hate it when my neighbour BBQ, the smell must be very dangerous for me and for my 10 year old Hitler in the making. I think we should outlaw anything that smells bad. If it smells bad, it must be bad.

 

I'll go along with that. My ex mother in law smells bad.

 

Still I haven't heard any explanation why nicotine patches and gum are any safer or less addictive? Do they have the warning label too? Is secondhand "chewing" (transfer through kissing maybe) also a risk of mouth cancer? Or secondhand touching on the skin where the patch were also a danger?

 

The nicotine in the patches is addictive, as addictive as that in the tobacco and causes all the same problems; i.e. high blood pressure. I am in no danger from getting second hand tobacco from "chewing" since I would never kiss a woman that's been chewing.

 

From what I read somewhere is that it's not the nicotine is the reason to the addiction, but not what causes the cancer, but it's the other 10,000 chemicals in cigarettes (bleach, glue etc) that are the real dangers in the smoke. Is there any truth to this?

 

Assuming the "not" in the above is a typo, as far as I know that is true. Now of course the tobacco companies will disagree. Nicotine is extremely addictive and when given to coke addicts they love it. And remember "RAID" insecticide when it first came out? It was real powerful. They had to change the active ingredients when the EPA said it was bad for the environment. It used to contain high amounts of nicotine.

 

(And Dave, don't get me wrong, I'm not a supporter of smoking in public or around kids. I just think it's gone to far when you private life at home, outside on the patio is controlled by the government.)

 

It has gone too far.

 

Oh, I just found out that nicotine exists in small amounts in tomato, potato, eggplant (aubergine), and green pepper, and nicotine alkaloids are also found in the leaves of the coca plant. Hmm.... will we see potato smokers soon?

 

The potato is in the Solanaceae family. You can do better by ingesting different parts than the tuber..... but be careful... it could kill you. If your potato has sprouted.... toss it out as that could kill you too.

 

Religion can be dangerous too, and (I don't remember the number) hundreds of kids are dying each year because they don't get treated, and the reason is religious beliefs. Probably even more people are dying each year because they have a treatable illness, but they refuse because they believe in some miracle workers prayers. Charlatans and dangerous faith that kills people is just as bad for us all and for kids, and should be stopped.... or should freedom reign?

 

I don't think religion is the problem. Fundamentalism is. To take one sentence out of the bible and allow your kids to die because of it is a brand of fundamentalism that should be wiped out. Look at the Middle East and the deaths and misery being caused by the fundamental brands of the Abrahamic religions. From Israel to Saudi Arabia people are dying because of fundamentalist god beliefs. Anything, smoking, drinking, sex, religion, taken to extremes is where the problem is.

[Ouroboros]

Of course we know the kids not a Hitler, but what are we, as a society, teaching kids? If you don't like something you should have it banned?

We just have to be careful how far we go with bans. To ban smoking in the car with kids, I'm all for it. And also in public, because not even I like to eat at a place where they smoke. But outside, I don't mind if people smoke, in designated areas.

 

I'll go along with that. My ex mother in law smells bad.

 

The nicotine in the patches is addictive, as addictive as that in the tobacco and causes all the same problems; i.e. high blood pressure. I am in no danger from getting second hand tobacco from "chewing" since I would never kiss a woman that's been chewing.

True. But not cancer. I've hear a lot about nicotine and cancer, and I just found some more information that nicotine isn't the problem there. Cigarettes are a nuisance, that I'll go for. But I have my cigar in evening, in my backyard, and I want it to stay that way.

 

Assuming the "not" in the above is a typo, as far as I know that is true.

Damn it! I did a typo. I meant, nicotine is very addictive, but not the real reason for cancer.

 

Now of course the tobacco companies will disagree. Nicotine is extremely addictive and when given to coke addicts they love it. And remember "RAID" insecticide when it first came out? It was real powerful. They had to change the active ingredients when the EPA said it was bad for the environment. It used to contain high amounts of nicotine.

Never heard that about RAID.

 

The potato is in the Solanaceae family. You can do better by ingesting different parts than the tuber..... but be careful... it could kill you. If your potato has sprouted.... toss it out as that could kill you too.

Yup. Lets outlaw it.

 

And if we think about the pollution from cars, our favorite subject to debate . I hate those stinking trucks on the freeway that you end up driving behind and are forced to breathe their fumes.

 

I don't think religion is the problem. Fundamentalism is. To take one sentence out of the bible and allow your kids to die because of it is a brand of fundamentalism that should be wiped out. Look at the Middle East and the deaths and misery being caused by the fundamental brands of the Abrahamic religions. From Israel to Saudi Arabia people are dying because of fundamentalist god beliefs. Anything, smoking, drinking, sex, religion, taken to extremes is where the problem is.

True. I believe in moderation, even within the law, and that's where I think governments sometimes do wrong; they become fundamentalists to a certain concept or an idea and outlaw it to the fullest extent. And it can be seen in other areas too. (Which I'm not to bring up here.)

 

As humans we tend to go overboard before we can realize we've gone too far. They want to outlaw outdoor smoking in California, then I really think outdoor driving and outdoor burning of wood of anykind should also be, because it does cause harm to health and environment just as much.

 

Next thing is to outlaw trans fat, which has been proposed too. And next will be violent games and movies. I think information and knowledge, and free to make a choice is the way a free society should go, and not behavior control from the top. I becomes too much of dictatorship.

[mwc]

We just have to be careful how far we go with bans. To ban smoking in the car with kids, I'm all for it. And also in public, because not even I like to eat at a place where they smoke. But outside, I don't mind if people smoke, in designated areas.

I'm not for this kind of stuff and I'm allergic to it. I've actually stopped breathing around certain things, including types of smoke (cigars can do me in...sorry Hans). But sometimes I'm around these things and I'm fine. Some people take it way too far on both sides.

 

I am for consideration. Teach people to be considerate and things are a bit better. If you're smoking and you see the other guy fall over. Maybe stop? He gets back and you two can be friends. Smoke when he leaves again (or ask him to go so you can get on about your business).

 

People won't smoke in cars with the kids if they're educated to the harm it does AND the science doesn't have the usual "if's" and "maybe's" that allow people to take the chances like they did so long with the global warming stuff.

 

The thing is this won't happen overnight. One generation won't suddenly give it all up and this is why people start banning this and that. I never used to wear a seat belt as a child but now I won't start my car unless everyone does. It wasn't the law that changed me it was growing up and understanding what getting in an accident without one could do. I got my license and the belt went on. The law didn't matter.

 

mwc

[Dave]

We just have to be careful how far we go with bans. To ban smoking in the car with kids, I'm all for it. And also in public, because not even I like to eat at a place where they smoke. But outside, I don't mind if people smoke, in designated areas.

 

There is a Native American casino nearby. Smoking is allowed and I rarely go there because of that. The slots in the no smoking section don't pay off at all and all the card tables are in the smoking section along with the food. No craps tables at all, which is a bummer since that's where I make all the money.

 

True. But not cancer. I've hear a lot about nicotine and cancer, and I just found some more information that nicotine isn't the problem there. Cigarettes are a nuisance, that I'll go for. But I have my cigar in evening, in my backyard, and I want it to stay that way.

 

You get as much nicotine from the cigar, even without inhaling, as you would with a cigarette.... maybe more.

 

And if we think about the pollution from cars, our favorite subject to debate . I hate those stinking trucks on the freeway that you end up driving behind and are forced to breathe their fumes.

 

Yeah.... but how would you get stuff where it needs to go if they outlawed trucks? I'm sure they could do something to clean up that exhaust. I hear Pen State is working on reformulating the diesel fuel and someone else is working on cleaning up the particulates. Bio diesel is much cleaner..... then the exhaust would smell like french fries.

 

True. I believe in moderation, even within the law, and that's where I think governments sometimes do wrong; they become fundamentalists to a certain concept or an idea and outlaw it to the fullest extent. And it can be seen in other areas too. (Which I'm not to bring up here.)

 

Zero tolerance is a form of fundamentalism.

 

As humans we tend to go overboard before we can realize we've gone too far. They want to outlaw outdoor smoking in California, then I really think outdoor driving and outdoor burning of wood of anykind should also be, because it does cause harm to health and environment just as much.

 

It comes down to what is necessary. It is necessary to drive to work, but not necessary to smoke there around other people. We can clean up the auto exhaust or take public transit. When I was unfortunate enough to have to live in a city, I rode my bike to work. I actually got there faster than I could in a car.

 

Next thing is to outlaw trans fat, which has been proposed too. And next will be violent games and movies. I think information and knowledge, and free to make a choice is the way a free society should go, and not behavior control from the top. I becomes too much of dictatorship.

 

I'd like to see the violence gone from movies and such, but outlawing it isn't the way to go. Controlling behavior won't work but a president and leadership that can set an example is a good way to go. The present leadership is only an example if you want to lie, cheat, and steal..... then go to church on Sunday.

[Vigile]

I hate to be around smoke, but I hate the government creating fresh new ways to criminalize personal choices much, much more.

 

I like MWC's comment about being considerate. I wish more people would be. Russians are particularly inconsiderate when it comes to both smoking and driving. My two biggest beefs here.

[Ouroboros]

I'm not for this kind of stuff and I'm allergic to it. I've actually stopped breathing around certain things, including types of smoke (cigars can do me in...sorry Hans). But sometimes I'm around these things and I'm fine. Some people take it way too far on both sides.

That's why I'm all for a law against smoking in public, because I can understand that. Also there are people that are allergic to perfume the same way, and yet we have some that splash on one gallon of it before they walk out. The law is based on trends in society and not safety, fairness or necessarily reason.

 

I am for consideration. Teach people to be considerate and things are a bit better. If you're smoking and you see the other guy fall over. Maybe stop? He gets back and you two can be friends. Smoke when he leaves again (or ask him to go so you can get on about your business).

Unfortunately many smokers don't care about others, the same way as over-perfumers don't care or think of it. But yes, if education was done right maybe people could be more considerate. I'm very careful and cautious about this and if a restaurant allow smoking outside on the patio, I'll still (most of the time) ask people at the other tables if it's okay before I lit my cigar or pipe (usually pipe in those occasions).

 

People won't smoke in cars with the kids if they're educated to the harm it does AND the science doesn't have the usual "if's" and "maybe's" that allow people to take the chances like they did so long with the global warming stuff.

 

The thing is this won't happen overnight. One generation won't suddenly give it all up and this is why people start banning this and that. I never used to wear a seat belt as a child but now I won't start my car unless everyone does. It wasn't the law that changed me it was growing up and understanding what getting in an accident without one could do. I got my license and the belt went on. The law didn't matter.

True. It's about attitude change, and the law can help establish that.

[Ouroboros]

You get as much nicotine from the cigar, even without inhaling, as you would with a cigarette.... maybe more.

I know, and that's the very weird thing, because I'm not addicted!!! I didn't smoke a cigar for two days here, and finally had one yesterday. I know people that smoke a cigar once a week or once a month or once a year and are not addicted. How can that be? Actually I don't find many cigar smokers that are addicted at all, and yet the amount of nicotine is very high. And the tests show very little chances of cancer from cigar and pipe. One of the first tests done, in the 60's, in Denmark, showed that pipe and cigar smokers lived longer than non-smokers, while cigarette smokers didn't. So either these test have some fundamental flaws or pipe/cigar isn't as dangerous.

 

And if we think about the pollution from cars, our favorite subject to debate . I hate those stinking trucks on the freeway that you end up driving behind and are forced to breathe their fumes.

 

Yeah.... but how would you get stuff where it needs to go if they outlawed trucks? I'm sure they could do something to clean up that exhaust. I hear Pen State is working on reformulating the diesel fuel and someone else is working on cleaning up the particulates. Bio diesel is much cleaner..... then the exhaust would smell like french fries.

That'll work. Maybe it should be stronger push on the truck makers but also the truck owners, through fines etc.

 

Zero tolerance is a form of fundamentalism.

Amen. I agree. Like MADD they've gone mad. Next thing will be zero tolerance on dayquil and medicine while driviing.

 

As humans we tend to go overboard before we can realize we've gone too far. They want to outlaw outdoor smoking in California, then I really think outdoor driving and outdoor burning of wood of anykind should also be, because it does cause harm to health and environment just as much.

 

It comes down to what is necessary. It is necessary to drive to work, but not necessary to smoke there around other people. We can clean up the auto exhaust or take public transit. When I was unfortunate enough to have to live in a city, I rode my bike to work. I actually got there faster than I could in a car.

Yes. But "outdoor" is very generic, so in effect we'll see laws that goes into your home. And about biking, I used to do that long time ago, and I had the same situation, the bike was faster (and you felt good too).

 

Next thing is to outlaw trans fat, which has been proposed too. And next will be violent games and movies. I think information and knowledge, and free to make a choice is the way a free society should go, and not behavior control from the top. I becomes too much of dictatorship.

 

I'd like to see the violence gone from movies and such, but outlawing it isn't the way to go. Controlling behavior won't work but a president and leadership that can set an example is a good way to go. The present leadership is only an example if you want to lie, cheat, and steal..... then go to church on Sunday.

Yeah. But it seems that governments tend to get into this idea of controlling behavior though, and that's why I brought up Hitler before, because he was a health nut and he wanted to change humanity, or make humanity a better, strong, faster, healthier being, through leigslation and force, and see where that ended. Somehow we go in these cycles in history.

 

It's a tricky concept, this "freedom", where to set the limits, because without some limits there won't be freedom for everyone, but with too many or too strict limits there isn't any for anyone.

[Ouroboros]

I hate to be around smoke, but I hate the government creating fresh new ways to criminalize personal choices much, much more.

I don't like the smell of cigarettes either, and cigars don't always smell good either, but pipe can smell very good (seriously). I've had friends over and they ask me if I can lite up a pipe, because they love the smell.

 

My issue with the laws is that this is how it starts. You take away a few liberties, and then a few more, and then a few more, and suddenly one day you'll wake up in a totalitarian society.

 

I like MWC's comment about being considerate. I wish more people would be. Russians are particularly inconsiderate when it comes to both smoking and driving. My two biggest beefs here.

Here's something I've found. Most cigarette smokers don't care, even with education. Cigar smokers care to some extent, but it's more 50/50%. Pipe smokers are actually more considerate than the other two groups. Weird, and I don't know why.

[Vigile]

suddenly one day you'll wake up in a totalitarian society.

 

You mean you're not there yet?

 

As for pipe smokers, every now and then I see a young guy walking down the street smoking a pipe. When I was growing up, only older grampa types smoked pipes. Must be on the comeback. I like the smell of pipes as well.

[HuaiDan]

I wish more people would be. Russians are particularly inconsiderate when it comes to both smoking and driving. My two biggest beefs here.

Now, now, it's not your job to civilize the natives. One of my biggest beef with the chinese and tobacco (they're extremely liberal with it here, any place, any time) is during meals. They make no qualms about lighting up while eating, in front of granma and the kids.. Gotta just accept it as part of the culture.

[Vigile]

It's a tricky concept, this "freedom", where to set the limits, because without some limits there won't be freedom for everyone, but with too many or too strict limits there isn't any for anyone.

 

After living abroad in three different countries now, I can assure you that the US has crossed that line and gone over to the dark side.

[Vigile]

You get as much nicotine from the cigar, even without inhaling, as you would with a cigarette.... maybe more.

I know, and that's the very weird thing, because I'm not addicted!!! I didn't smoke a cigar for two days here, and finally had one yesterday. I know people that smoke a cigar once a week or once a month or once a year and are not addicted. How can that be? Actually I don't find many cigar smokers that are addicted at all, and yet the amount of nicotine is very high. And the tests show very little chances of cancer from cigar and pipe. One of the first tests done, in the 60's, in Denmark, showed that pipe and cigar smokers lived longer than non-smokers, while cigarette smokers didn't. So either these test have some fundamental flaws or pipe/cigar isn't as dangerous.

 

That's weird. I used to chew tobacco and was seriously addicted for years. When was craving a chew and would try to smoke a cigar, I could not relieve the craving. Probably goes to the fact that the habbit is half or more psychological.

[Vigile]

I wish more people would be. Russians are particularly inconsiderate when it comes to both smoking and driving. My two biggest beefs here.

Now, now, it's not your job to civilize the natives. One of my biggest beef with the chinese and tobacco (they're extremely liberal with it here, any place, any time) is during meals. They make no qualms about lighting up while eating, in front of granma and the kids.. Gotta just accept it as part of the culture.

 

Oh, I agree, it's just a pet peeve, nothing more.

 

It is a pain in the ass though getting smoke constantly blown in your face as you walk down the sidewalk and then on that same trek getting literally pushed out of the way as some idiot in a Mercedes decides to park his car on the sidewalk while you are walking. In Russia pedestrians are considered like pigeons. Drivers just expect them to get out of the way, whether on the street or the sidewalk and won't even slow down for them.

[HuaiDan]

So that's who the chinese learned their driving manners from

 

That's weird. I used to chew tobacco and was seriously addicted for years. When was craving a chew and would try to smoke a cigar, I could not relieve the craving. Probably goes to the fact that the habbit is half or more psychological.

 

Switching brands of cigarettes does the same thing to me.

[Ouroboros]

suddenly one day you'll wake up in a totalitarian society.

You mean you're not there yet?

Sometimes it sure feels like it.

 

No, actually I don't think it's too bad yet, but I can see the signs on the horizon. Coming from a socialistic country and how politics were done there, I can only say that US will become a socialism too one day. And all citizens will think they did it for their own good, and never realize they have less freedom and have higher taxes than anyone and yet live in the delusion. That's why Christianity and religion is so perfect, because it train people to live in denial.

 

As for pipe smokers, every now and then I see a young guy walking down the street smoking a pipe. When I was growing up, only older grampa types smoked pipes. Must be on the comeback. I like the smell of pipes as well.

I wish it was. Not many people smoke pipe, mostly because it's more work and it takes practice to master it. And I can't tell how good it feels to sit on the deck, with a glass of beer or wine, a nice bowl of tobacco and watching the sunset.

[Ouroboros]

That's weird. I used to chew tobacco and was seriously addicted for years. When was craving a chew and would try to smoke a cigar, I could not relieve the craving. Probably goes to the fact that the habbit is half or more psychological.

So you didn't feel the nicotine kick from the cigar then? And what's even stranger is that some of the cigars I have are extremely strong. You will get a nicotine buzz from them, and yet, no addiction...