New Here W/ Questions. Help! :-)

[Guest thequale]

Hey there! Glad to find this site. I know I probably need de-programming since I came from a MAJOR "Fundy Family" upbringing. But it never really “felt” right.

 

Over the years I have argued/debated with my "Fundy Folks," which has left me with lots of questions, especially in the supernatural realm.

 

1) There is soooooooo much out there, with people having “experiences” that I cannot be atheist and deny that “something” is not going on in the supernatural realm. Again, way to many stories out there.

 

2) They "get me" on the following sorta arguement:

 

"Growing up in our era (40s/50s) we had certain moral precepts that were generally accepted. Not everybody followed the rules, but hey! look at what we have now. Rampant promiscuity, STDs, kids having kids (which, by the way, most cannot afford to raise), etc. The 60s brought us the "do what ya want/ I'm-just-doin'-my-own- thing,-man" philosophy, and so people did just that.

 

Again, look at kids who grew up in the late 60s to today's 20-something & under crowd*compared with ours*. The "post-1950s" group reacted to society at large's general acceptance and promotion of hendonism which has resulted in a bunch of kids having kids, STDs, etc. Oh and by the way, how do you get HIV/AIDS? By having a) sex with a carrier, or sharing needles, both sins. What are secularists/atheists doing to stop this? Why should we be 'tolerant' of this kind of behavior when it is a CHOICE on behalf of the individual who knew the consequences of said behavior?"

 

So that leaves me thinking to myself: "Yeah, you know, if every dumb kid in America had this fear of an 'Angry-Dad-in-the-Sky' guy who would send you to Hell for being irresponsible, who cares? If they figure things out later in life and start questioning things, well great! At least the taxpayer has some relief and we've saved society from having to put up direct consequences of the idiot factor."

 

Plus, these "old standbys" they use doesn’t help me:

 

2 Peter 3:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers,

walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?

for since the fathers fell asleep,

all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of,

that by the word of God the heavens were of old,

and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was,

being overflowed with water, perished:

 

1 Timothy Chapter 4

 

1 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions 2through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences. 3They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving, 5for it is made holy by the invocation of God in prayer.

 

Any help or thoughts greatly appreciated!!!!

[Kelli]

Welcome. I have similar beliefs regarding the spiritual, because of my own experiences that some would call paranormal. Keep a few things in mind.

 

First, you can believe in the spiritual and not be a christian. I haven't considered myself to be christian in nearly three years, yet I still hold belief in the spiritual. My 'deconversion' as some call it, started with examining my own faith (christianity), then looking to other faiths. I looked into Judaism, Islam, Deism, various pagan faiths, and eventually settled on being agnostic with a bit of celtic paganism. The latter is where I have been now for well over a year. The important part was shedding all that christian guilt and the hold it had over my life. I came to realize that christianity actually held me back from being a better, more productive human being. It was very freeing. And I am truly a better, more caring, more patient, more loving person as a result. And I like myself. I was borderline suicidal many times as a christian...

 

Second, I had all that "the world is going to hell in a handbasket since the sixties" crap fed to me for 30 years. Honestly, it's really not true. If you examine history, people have been doing all kinds of hienous crap to each other since the beginning of time. If anything, I think we're in the most civilized time period in history. And if you examine history, you will find that religion, in particular christianity (and islam) have been center of the ring in terms of world atrocities.

 

Detaching yourself from christianity can be a long, difficult process. For me, it took a long time to get over things like fear of hell, and belief in certain mythical consequences. Believe me, it's worth it and you'll find a lot of helpful people along the road who have gone through the same thing.

[Antlerman]

Well better late to the party then never. Picking up the pieces from the server crash and having no idea what the missing posts said...

 

 

Over the years I have argued/debated with my "Fundy Folks," which has left me with lots of questions, especially in the supernatural realm.

 

1) There is soooooooo much out there, with people having “experiences” that I cannot be atheist and deny that “something” is not going on in the supernatural realm. Again, way to many stories out there.

As far as these experiences of a "supernatural" nature having any merit because of how many reports there are of them, I find that as you peel back the layers of cultural mythologies and the human propensity to try to fill in gaps of knowledge with "something", you will find that is far more indicative of human psychology, than some realm of supernatural beings.

 

It is ironic actually how natural beings can claim to have any knowledge whatsoever of something which by definition is not natural. How is that possible? If it's supernatural, then you can't know it because you're not. Is there some "half-natural" realm? Yet, the tales, explainations, and experiences with something outside the natural world are so abundant! What does this say? To me it speaks strongly that these are all creations of the human mind, not knowledge that by definition would be impossible to define because it is not natural, not half-natural, but super-natural.

 

2) They "get me" on the following sorta arguement:

 

"Growing up in our era (40s/50s) we had certain moral precepts that were generally accepted. Not everybody followed the rules, but hey! look at what we have now. Rampant promiscuity, STDs, kids having kids (which, by the way, most cannot afford to raise), etc. The 60s brought us the "do what ya want/ I'm-just-doin'-my-own- thing,-man" philosophy, and so people did just that.

 

Again, look at kids who grew up in the late 60s to today's 20-something & under crowd*compared with ours*. The "post-1950s" group reacted to society at large's general acceptance and promotion of hendonism which has resulted in a bunch of kids having kids, STDs, etc. Oh and by the way, how do you get HIV/AIDS? By having a) sex with a carrier, or sharing needles, both sins. What are secularists/atheists doing to stop this? Why should we be 'tolerant' of this kind of behavior when it is a CHOICE on behalf of the individual who knew the consequences of said behavior?"

 

So that leaves me thinking to myself: "Yeah, you know, if every dumb kid in America had this fear of an 'Angry-Dad-in-the-Sky' guy who would send you to Hell for being irresponsible, who cares? If they figure things out later in life and start questioning things, well great! At least the taxpayer has some relief and we've saved society from having to put up direct consequences of the idiot factor."

 

Plus, these "old standbys" they use doesn’t help me:

 

2 Peter 3:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers,

walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?

for since the fathers fell asleep,

all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of,

that by the word of God the heavens were of old,

and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was,

being overflowed with water, perished:

 

1 Timothy Chapter 4

 

1 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions 2through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences. 3They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving, 5for it is made holy by the invocation of God in prayer.

 

Any help or thoughts greatly appreciated!!!!

Of course all these things can be said of the current generation going all the way back to the very first civilizations. It's preying on people’s fears and touches into what I mentioned above about filling gaps of knowledge with "answers". Add to this, these people who exploit these sorts of sweeping generalizations and prey upon peoples desire to have neat, clean, simple answers to extremely complex issues in society and human experience, are notorious for "interpreting" current events in ways that suit their agenda - their agenda which is power. Control through fear.

 

Here's the real rub, how come they only focus on negatives? Of course if they were to speak about the vastly more abundant positive things in society, there wouldn't be any need for their product!! It's classic marketing. "Things are bad and they're broken. You need our services!" I swear, it's all so simple when it comes to these peddlers of doom and gloom. They're snake-oil salesmen.

[Ouroboros]

It is ironic actually how natural beings can claim to have any knowledge whatsoever of something which by definition is not natural. How is that possible? If it's supernatural, then you can't know it because you're not. Is there some "half-natural" realm? Yet, the tales, explainations, and experiences with something outside the natural world are so abundant! What does this say? To me it speaks strongly that these are all creations of the human mind, not knowledge that by definition would be impossible to define because it is not natural, not half-natural, but super-natural.

Agree.

 

It's like this saying that "God is beyond our understanding", and the next comment you hear is "God is all powerful" or something similar, which immediately implies some kind of understanding of this being that you can't understand. Either God is the ultimate unknown, unknowable and undefineable, or he/she/it isn't. It's like Dao Te Ching, if Dao is God and God is Dao, give it a name and it's not the ultimate anymore.

[NotBlinded]

It is ironic actually how natural beings can claim to have any knowledge whatsoever of something which by definition is not natural. How is that possible? If it's supernatural, then you can't know it because you're not. Is there some "half-natural" realm? Yet, the tales, explainations, and experiences with something outside the natural world are so abundant! What does this say? To me it speaks strongly that these are all creations of the human mind, not knowledge that by definition would be impossible to define because it is not natural, not half-natural, but super-natural.

Agree.

 

It's like this saying that "God is beyond our understanding", and the next comment you hear is "God is all powerful" or something similar, which immediately implies some kind of understanding of this being that you can't understand. Either God is the ultimate unknown, unknowable and undefineable, or he/she/it isn't. It's like Dao Te Ching, if Dao is God and God is Dao, give it a name and it's not the ultimate anymore.

I agree with both of ya.

 

I also believe, as Antlerman stated, that mythology has a great deal to do with human psychology. I feel this is why there are many elements in them that can be compared cross-culturally because they all came from the psyches of humanity.

 

They are trying to express an experience of the "Great Mystery" that can't be expressed any other way than by bringing this experience into the world of names and forms. That is why, IMO, it is important not to take the names and forms literally when they are speaking of this "Mystery". They are trying to express a meaning that is formless that had impact on their lives. If they were real people, all the better. Real people living real lives expressing their feelings/experiences through the only medium that can do it...words.

[Antlerman]

They are trying to express an experience of the "Great Mystery" that can't be expressed any other way than by bringing this experience into the world of names and forms.

I wonder if this "Great Mystery" is some sort of reflexive response to considering ourselves as the object? Sort of like looking at yourself in a mirror, and not quite being sure what that image is?

[NotBlinded]

They are trying to express an experience of the "Great Mystery" that can't be expressed any other way than by bringing this experience into the world of names and forms.

I wonder if this "Great Mystery" is some sort of reflexive response to considering ourselves as the object? Sort of like looking at yourself in a mirror, and not quite being sure what that image is?

Do you mean when we became self-aware, or in the process of becoming so? I would think that would be a cause of wonder. If we suddenly saw ourselves as a separate entity, then we would then wonder where we came from. Some saw themselves as apart from nature and other people saw themselves as a part of nature. It's the former belief that has caused much confusion and hardship, IMO, but as a secondary effect.

 

I think the thinking of being apart from nature caused many of us (humanity) to think that we were put here by some being apart from us. It's time to evolve away from that, IMO (for the ones that hold that opinion). I think many of the writers of religions were aware that we weren't really separate from this "source" (mystery teachers), but then there were those that understood the teachings to promote a separate entity. It doesn't really matter though what they thought as I'll try to show below.

 

I could blabber on and on about this with the Adam and Eve allegory, but I'll spare ya!

 

But, no matter which view one holds, the expression of these feelings of the mystery will be reflected by the means of what is known because not one us knows anything outside of nature. So, the feelings and expression that arrive come about regardless of what belief you hold because of this. It is just attributed to what the person believes. If a "separate enitity" believer feels this sense of wonder, they will attribute it to some other being. If an inclusive believer feels this sense of wonder, they will attribute it to the force within all things...whatever that is.

 

This shared sense of wonder should tell the exclusive believers that this is a psychological aspect of humanity and the expressions of myth will resemble each other. How can it not? It wouldn't matter what belief they held when they wrote about it, the message will reflect the psyche of the human mind. It's this misunderstanding of the human mind (mostly unconsious mind) that brings about later consequences. If the myth is understood as being exclusive, in a literal and special knowledge sense, then trouble comes. When looked at as an expression of the mind of humanity, then we can see what was meant regardless of what they thought they meant.

 

Of course, this understanding is operating off the assumption that no one has special knowledge and is primary, IMO. The secondary effects are the harm it causes societies for people to believe that there is special knowledge.

 

This isn't an exclusive feeling that only occurs with Christians no matter what they say!

 

What is the meaning behind wanting to be reborn as understood through the psyche? This is what fascinates me. It tells me that I (if it were me) would like to live a happier and more peaceful life. No matter whether I believe it is now or after death, that is what I desire and I will express this in some way that is known to me like being in the body of a whale and re-emerging a "new" person or like being washed clean to my past. All things in this world that point to an inner state. Cool stuff...

[Ouroboros]

I wonder if this "Great Mystery" is some sort of reflexive response to considering ourselves as the object? Sort of like looking at yourself in a mirror, and not quite being sure what that image is?

I do think so. Like it's been said before, we create gods in our image, but we also create gods to explain the mystery of the world and existence. We are the real paradox in the formula.

[Antlerman]

Do you mean when we became self-aware, or in the process of becoming so? I would think that would be a cause of wonder. If we suddenly saw ourselves as a separate entity, then we would then wonder where we came from. Some saw themselves as apart from nature and other people saw themselves as a part of nature. It's the former belief that has caused much confusion and hardship, IMO, but as a secondary effect.

Oh boy, thanks a lot… you’re making me think! Damn! There’s only so much brain available right now. Ok then… let’s go for it.

 

I made the comment in passing as I was leaving the house this morning. I think you are keying in on what I meant, adding the distinction of those who see themselves separate from nature. I suppose this betrays that I am a victim of my own cultural upbringing and in fact see a distinction in myself as apart from nature. In those moments of inspiration, a connection is regained, and I guess what I was expressing is that I see myself looking back, yet with this strange distortion of cultural programming against the internal realization that I am in fact a part of the universe.

 

Oh what would we be, but for the curse of Christianity!

 

I think the thinking of being apart from nature caused many of us (humanity) to think that we were put here by some being apart from us. It's time to evolve away from that, IMO (for the ones that hold that opinion). I think many of the writers of religions were aware that we weren't really separate from this "source" (mystery teachers), but then there were those that understood the teachings to promote a separate entity. It doesn't really matter though what they thought as I'll try to show below.

I’ll break it here to make a statement I’ve made many times, and seems most appropriate here:

 

Salvation is freedom from religion.

 

I could blabber on and on about this with the Adam and Eve allegory, but I'll spare ya!

I’ve never known you to blabber. You’re getting even heavier than me. Damn, I have to think!

 

But, no matter which view one holds, the expression of these feelings of the mystery will be reflected by the means of what is known because not one us knows anything outside of nature. So, the feelings and expression that arrive come about regardless of what belief you hold because of this. It is just attributed to what the person believes. If a "separate enitity" believer feels this sense of wonder, they will attribute it to some other being. If an inclusive believer feels this sense of wonder, they will attribute it to the force within all things...whatever that is.

Hmm… I’m hearing a nice segway to my discussion on language I’m intending to get back to when things are more relaxed for me: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=258319

 

Yes, you are really honing in on what I’ve seen: psychology, language, and reality. We are the God we seek. We seek ourselves. We seek to talk about ourselves. We are talking about ourselves.

 

This shared sense of wonder should tell the exclusive believers that this is a psychological aspect of humanity and the expressions of myth will resemble each other. How can it not?

How can it not? The myth is an end to itself, and not a vehicle. To expose that the myth is not God, is to expose them to themselves, and it is that which they fear to see: The terror of true self awareness. The void we stare into and see ourselves staring back.

 

It wouldn't matter what belief they held when they wrote about it, the message will reflect the psyche of the human mind. It's this misunderstanding of the human mind (mostly unconsious mind) that brings about later consequences. If the myth is understood as being exclusive, in a literal and special knowledge sense, then trouble comes. When looked at as an expression of the mind of humanity, then we can see what was meant regardless of what they thought they meant.

 

Of course, this understanding is operating off the assumption that no one has special knowledge and is primary, IMO. The secondary effects are the harm it causes societies for people to believe that there is special knowledge.

Almond to that. I agree that the belief that someone holds special knowledge, or to use the favorite term of the fundamentalist "direct revelation" is a damning thing! It damns everyone outside that group, and everyone within it for viewing the world through the lens of insane ignorance! They worship it as an idol. It limits them in the limitless potentials of the human heart and mind. I damns them to ignorance, and the special knowledge becomes damnation itself.

 

What is the meaning behind wanting to be reborn as understood through the psyche? This is what fascinates me. It tells me that I (if it were me) would like to live a happier and more peaceful life. No matter whether I believe it is now or after death, that is what I desire and I will express this in some way that is known to me like being in the body of a whale and re-emerging a "new" person or like being washed clean to my past. All things in this world that point to an inner state. Cool stuff...

I’ll say it again because I love to say it. Being saved is being saved from religion. Being born again is awakening to the potentials of life.

 

Ok… back to the grind. Thanks for the moment to get back to this again. I’ll be back later.

[euphgeek]

Well better late to the party then never. Picking up the pieces from the server crash and having no idea what the missing posts said...

Is that why so many posts are MIA? Well, here's the post that I had posted:

 

Apparently, people in Biblical times had the same problems. Quote Ecclesiastes 7:10 to them: "Do not say, 'Why were the old days better than these?' For it is not wise to ask such questions."

[Taphophilia]

Why is it that American's seem to think that the US is the only country in the world that matters to God? The opening post only refers to their perception of the US.

 

I guess the New Testament and God were only concerned about a country that wouldn't exist for another millenia and a half.

[Guest thequale]

Why is it that American's seem to think that the US is the only country in the world that matters to God? The opening post only refers to their perception of the US.

 

I guess the New Testament and God were only concerned about a country that wouldn't exist for another millenia and a half.

 

I cannot thank you all enough for the very thought ful responses and the ensuing discourse that this thread brought forth.

 

Actually, Taph, my family grew up overseas, my family was deeply involved in helping others and i also realize that they came from SERIOUSLY messed up families--childhoods that I'm learning were *fuct*. Fundyism was a crutch, they could have run to drugs, other religions, etc, it's just that this is what I'm stuck with, have been stuck with, and like most folks here, find it tough to disengage even w/ logic right there in yer face. I'll stick around though. Again, thanks for the input all!!!!!!! :-)