Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Poonis

Kick-starting Autonomous Thinking In Christians

Recommended Posts

Yes, we are created in God's image; jealous, angry, violent and willing to take revenge. What man isn't the same?

You'll have it if you turn it around: Yes, God is created in man's image; jealous, angry, violent and willing to take revenge. That sounds more realistic doesn't it?

 

If you take the myth literally, you have created an idol out of the minds of humans and claimed this to be God. Humans know nothing else besides being human. Knowing this, why is hard for you to understand that God would reflect the minds of humans but so easy to think you can comprehend something you have no way of understanding?

 

"If horses had Gods, they would look like horses." Xenophanes

 

Not true. God is a jealous God, etc. Read scripture and you’ll see.

 

Myth? I understand God – those that can’t – well, they must have only human understanding. Care to prove God isn’t true? You can’t. In all your wildest fantasies, the probability remains. Can you do away with probability?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...Bush did something to fulfill prophecy, whether you believe it or not.

 

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease don't tell me that you really believe that.

 

-CC

 

Yes, I do. Bush has America deeply entrenched in the end times war. Do you see a way out?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quick,

 

Just curious. Is punishment by God intended to reform or destroy?

 

Destroy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry, I just noticed that you replied to several comments. I only saw the highlighted one at first. I will reply tomorrow to the rest. Got to hit the sack. The reality of working for a living applies to us all.

No problem. Take your time. It's a bummer, this whole notion that we have to work for money and food. :) I think the idea is that it was Adam's fault. If they only had eaten the fruit from the other tree...

 

Yes, you are a clever fellow. I like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Myth? I understand God –

Fantastic! The first human alive that can understand God!! Doesn't the Bible say that you can't?

 

those that can’t – well, they must have only human understanding.

If you're not human, what are you? An angel??

 

Care to prove God isn’t true? You can’t. In all your wildest fantasies, the probability remains. Can you do away with probability?

*yawn* Ok... can you prove the Happy the Magic Unicorn doesn't exist? Can you prove that I'm not you from the future trying to tell you how foolish this type of reasoning is?

 

Oh yes, in my wildest fantasies, Happy the Magic Troll is a probability like Jehovah God is one too, but can we say "astronomically remote possiblity"? So remote as to be not worth serious consideration?

 

Now my big question for you. Do you always allow your emotional desire to believe something be true cloud your reasoning this badly? :grin:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Myth? I understand God –

Fantastic! The first human alive that can understand God!! Doesn't the Bible say that you can't?

 

those that can’t – well, they must have only human understanding.

If you're not human, what are you? An angel??

 

Care to prove God isn’t true? You can’t. In all your wildest fantasies, the probability remains. Can you do away with probability?

*yawn* Ok... can you prove the Happy the Magic Unicorn doesn't exist? Can you prove that I'm not you from the future trying to tell you how foolish this type of reasoning is?

 

Oh yes, in my wildest fantasies, Happy the Magic Troll is a probability like Jehovah God is one too, but can we say "astronomically remote possiblity"? So remote as to be not worth serious consideration?

 

Now my big question for you. Do you always allow your emotional desire to believe something be true cloud your reasoning this badly? :grin:

No, do you? Possiblities exist? Disprove them if you wish!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No, do you? Possiblities exist? Disprove them if you wish!

You miss my point. First of all, it's up to the one making a positive assertion to offer proof to support it. The burden of proof is on you to prove an invisible God, not on others to disprove a claim. That's common sense really.

 

Secondly, yes I acknowledge the possibility that absolutely anything may exist, from the Trix Cereal Rabbit as a deity, to Jehovah being a real god and not a volcano deity of primate tribal people. But what is the probability? Is it worth considering? I need a little more than just "I believe it to be true" to make it worthy of consideration. Sure it’s possible, but how probable???

 

And for the most part, I try to remain open minded and as objective as I can. To do this, I have to recognize when an emotional bias is clouding my reasoning. I recognize this, and why I am where I am today. How about yourself?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry, God created all that exists. God created the ability of free thinking man and spiritual beings to chose to be evil, opposite of what he is. When the bible says he created evil – he created the something that choose to be evil. He didn’t make or design the evil that influences our existence. The choice was made long ago.

 

:Doh: Just Wow.. :crazy:

 

You’ll have to provide examples of murder and lie. I’ve not seen them in text. He most definitely encouraged his people to kill and rejoice in the spoils of war. And if you read revelation, that’s the theme. Mine is mine. He is the big kid on the block.

 

For starters:

 

The Sodom and Gomorrah Story is full of lies, hypocrisy (Rewards for some 'sin') and Cold blooded Murder.

Then after that we can discuss the major murders that were committed in Egypt. The Pharaoh had zero Free will in that story, as god hardened his heart deliberately then made the entire population pay for it.

 

The buybull lies (contradictions) are all over the place, but you'd again have to actually read the bible to see them.

 

 

Well-intentioned men wrote the bible. Yes, there are many inconsistencies within it. Look at all the different versions and you’ll agree. In short, the bible is a written record and guide for us to know God. Don’t linger on any one phrase or version. The truth is in your heart.

 

 

Yes you're right here.. seek and Ye shall find out that buybull is BS, you as much as say it yourself!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry, God created all that exists. God created the ability of free thinking man and spiritual beings to chose to be evil, opposite of what he is. When the bible says he created evil – he created the something that choose to be evil. He didn’t make or design the evil that influences our existence. The choice was made long ago.

 

:Doh: Just Wow.. :crazy:

 

You’ll have to provide examples of murder and lie. I’ve not seen them in text. He most definitely encouraged his people to kill and rejoice in the spoils of war. And if you read revelation, that’s the theme. Mine is mine. He is the big kid on the block.

 

For starters:

 

The Sodom and Gomorrah Story is full of lies, hypocrisy (Rewards for some 'sin') and Cold blooded Murder.

Then after that we can discuss the major murders that were committed in Egypt. The Pharaoh had zero Free will in that story, as god hardened his heart deliberately then made the entire population pay for it.

 

The buybull lies (contradictions) are all over the place, but you'd again have to actually read the bible to see them.

 

 

Well-intentioned men wrote the bible. Yes, there are many inconsistencies within it. Look at all the different versions and you’ll agree. In short, the bible is a written record and guide for us to know God. Don’t linger on any one phrase or version. The truth is in your heart.

 

 

Yes you're right here.. seek and Ye shall find out that buybull is BS, you as much as say it yourself!

 

So, if you truly feel in your heart that God is Bullshit, why bother talking to people like me?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So, if you truly feel in your heart that God is Bullshit, why bother talking to people like me?

 

I said the Bible was bullshit Number one, God is another matter entirely. I hold no beliefs in any deity's, it doesn't mean I'm closed minded to the possibility of their being one or a few I just haven't found any evidence of such. I simply don't know either way. Secondly, This place is called Ex-Christian. I am a Ex-Christian, this Webspace is like a Cyber home to me, why shouldn't I talk to visitors/ newbies?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No, do you? Possiblities exist? Disprove them if you wish!

You miss my point. First of all, it's up to the one making a positive assertion to offer proof to support it. The burden of proof is on you to prove an invisible God, not on others to disprove a claim. That's common sense really.

 

Secondly, yes I acknowledge the possibility that absolutely anything may exist, from the Trix Cereal Rabbit as a deity, to Jehovah being a real god and not a volcano deity of primate tribal people. But what is the probability? Is it worth considering? I need a little more than just "I believe it to be true" to make it worthy of consideration. Sure it’s possible, but how probable???

 

And for the most part, I try to remain open minded and as objective as I can. To do this, I have to recognize when an emotional bias is clouding my reasoning. I recognize this, and why I am where I am today. How about yourself?

 

 

No. I didn’t say an invisible God exists. I said the “possibility” of an invisible God exists. You must concur or prove the “possibility” of this God doesn’t exist. You can’t.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry, God created all that exists. God created the ability of free thinking man and spiritual beings to chose to be evil, opposite of what he is. When the bible says he created evil – he created the something that choose to be evil. He didn’t make or design the evil that influences our existence. The choice was made long ago.

Hmm... My interpretation of the previous verses is that God designed the evil, created it and the interpretation of the word used also mean that he casues disasters and such. But it's okay that we differ in opinion there.

 

You’ll have to provide examples of murder and lie. I’ve not seen them in text. He most definitely encouraged his people to kill and rejoice in the spoils of war. And if you read revelation, that’s the theme. Mine is mine. He is the big kid on the block.

There are examples, but I'm too lazy to look them up, so I'll just tell you how I remember the stories.

 

For instance, in one instance someone did something "sinful" in the camp during the exodus (I think it was there, it could have been a different occasion, like one of the many wars god told them to go on) and god opened up the earth and swallowed hundreds (or maybe it was thousands) of innocent people. That's murder. Or take all the newborn babies in the flood. What henious acts had they manage to do to deserve such a fate? Only a murderer kill innocent because he's emotional instable.

 

When it comes to lying, just take the example when YHWH tell Moses that "from now on you will know me by the name of YHWH" and he goes on and tell Moses that not even Abraham knew him by the name of YHWH, but if you go to the stories of Abraham you'll find that Abraham supposedly prayed using the name... (drumroll) YHWH!!! Either god lied about Abraham knowing his name, or god lied to the author who wrote the passage, or the author never heard from god. Take your pick.

 

Well-intentioned men wrote the bible. Yes, there are many inconsistencies within it. Look at all the different versions and you’ll agree. In short, the bible is a written record and guide for us to know God. Don’t linger on any one phrase or version. The truth is in your heart.

Okay, you're not a literalist at least. That's a good thing. That gives you many ways out from the contradictions. (And also ways out of the problems above.)

 

So how do you know the Bible is correct when it say "God is good" or that "God doesn't lie" if there are inconsistencies? Do you judge it by your heart? Basically a form of emotional filter? What you feel is right is right, and what you feel is wrong is wrong? What about people that feel to do things that the rest of us consider wrong?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not true. God is a jealous God, etc. Read scripture and you’ll see.

Yup. The Bible say God is jealous (I think in one of the 10 commandment passages). Isn't jealousy a sin?

 

Myth? I understand God – those that can’t – well, they must have only human understanding. Care to prove God isn’t true? You can’t. In all your wildest fantasies, the probability remains. Can you do away with probability?

Can you trust your instincts based on a possibility?

 

You hinted in an earlier post that the Bible contains inconsistencies and it only gives you direction to understanding god, then you must understand that the Bible is not to be taken literal and it is a symbolic book with symbolic language to describe a higher level of experience, and not necessarily a particular god, but rather how you personally can experience "god" (regardless if god exists or not). The purpose of religion is to give you religious experience. LSD give you an experience too, but it doesn't make the hallucinations true just because you experience them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quick,

 

Just curious. Is punishment by God intended to reform or destroy?

 

Destroy.

Like Shiva. Creator, Preserver and Destroyer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So, if you truly feel in your heart that God is Bullshit, why bother talking to people like me?

I've asked myself that question many times, and I think the reason (at least my reason) is that I like the challenge and to see what I learn from it. Personally I'm open minded to learn new things, and I refuse to become a fundamentalist of just another kind, so I'm training to discuss these issues. Because I know the time will come when I need to talk to people I meet, and we have to be able to find a common ground instead of fighting. If believers and non-believers can't live in the same place, we'll never have peace. And in my mind, this world is the only world I'll ever live on, so for me it is much more important to save this planet and my life and my loved ones, than it is for any fanatic that want to go to Paradise this moment and take a whole block with him while doing it.

 

One thing you have to understand Quick is that for a non-believer, life is much more precious than death. I don't dwell on thoughts about a fantasy or the implausible concept of an afterlife, when this life is the one I know for sure I need to treasure and protect. From the time I deconverted until now I have learned more about life, and I am more in love in life now than ever, and I see the world as more sacred and needing my help than ever before. Unfortunately it includes that religion is a threat to our existence. And I don't mean the solution is to get rid of religion or believers, because I think that is impossible, but the second best is to make sure we can live together. It has to start at the point of discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, you are a clever fellow. I like that.

Thanks. Very kind. But mostly I'm not that clever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No. I didn’t say an invisible God exists. I said the “possibility” of an invisible God exists. You must concur or prove the “possibility” of this God doesn’t exist. You can’t.

Sure, it's possible, but is it probable?

 

I'm open for new "god" ideas, but the Judeo/Christian/Islamic/Philosopher God just doesn't make sense. We can't accept a god because he doesn't make sense. We can't accept a god because we feel like it. You maybe can, and I now I used to be able to, but when the emotions are gone, so is the faith in such a god. Your faith isn't stronger than your strongest doubt. Open one crack and your faith falls.

 

If you imagine your own personal god that is incomprehensible and incompletely inexplainable, that is your choice, but just because there is a possibility that the Invisible Pink Unicorn does exist, doesn't mean there is a strong probability for its existence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you want to just hide behind a tuff guy avatar and ejaculate nonsense as some sort of reasonable communication – forget it. Little boys like you are a dime a dozen on the street. What sets you apart?

 

There goes BOOM another irony meter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry, God created all that exists.

 

Sorry, your gawd doesn't exist. I dare you to provide evidence to the contrary. Note that you will need specific evidence for the evil sadist described in da wholly babble having been the creator, not just "some higher being", for that could have been Odin, Zeus, Shiva, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, younameit.

 

Prediction: You will either not reply at all, or desperately try to change the topic, or hurl insults. Like every morontheist. But feel free to prove to us that you're different.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Care to prove God isn’t true? You can’t.

 

Care to tell which of the following three foundational claims of the jebus cult is wrong? At least one of them must be, for a gawd with all three traits is logically impossible given the world we live in...

 

Omnipotence

Omniscience

Omnibenevolence

 

Tough situation, mr morontheist. You have to either admit that your wholly babble isn't literal truth... or you have to admit your gawd can't possibly be real.

 

Welcome to morontheism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
He didn’t create evil. He allows free will. Choosing evil is up to the individual. Even you. You can react to stimuli in a number of ways. Yes, we are created in God’s image; jealous, angry, violent and willing to take revenge. What man isn’t the same?

 

God has no peers. He is THE JUDGE – the judge of all man’s judges. Many are imprisoned due to their lack of conformity to other men’s judgments. Crazy or enlightened? How many were burned at the stake for not following the doctrine or beliefs of the majority?

 

Ah, that old chestnut.

 

God gives us Free Will - but God is also the JUDGE.

 

If I told someone that they were free to do something I wanted them to, or to do something that I didn't want them to do - but that I'd punish them severely if they did the thing that I didn't want them to - wouldn't I be the most outrageous bully and not very loving? In what way would someone who does that be acting in such a way as to grant that person freedom?

 

If God is the judge of all our actions then the whole idea of Free Will is a farce and God has not given us freedom after all. Furthermore, if God punishes us with eternal hellfire for going against his will (a punishment equivalent to me saying that I'll chop off all your arms and legs if you go to the pub when I want you at home) then he cannot be a loving god

 

I just don't understand how christians can believe in two contradictory things - God gives us Free Will and God judges. If you command someone, if you gives someone orders and if they disobey them then you will punish them horribly - it can hardly be said that you are someone who gives them freedom to make whatever choice they wish!

 

Chestnut? Your daddy told you, this is the way it is under my roof. If you didn't do it his way - did he allow you to be your own judge?

 

 

Nice how you assume to be an authority on my parents as well!

 

My mum was pretty strict, but that's another story...

 

As for my Dad. He has his opinions, which aren't the same as mine. But he's quite gentle with them. He never, ever tried to impose his view of the way things should be on me. He always communicated with me like an equal. And when I was old enough to judge for myself (children tend to accept their parents' views unquestioningly) then he seemed quite willing to let me tread my own path, even if he doesn't agree with everything I do. He has always been my friend as well as my father.

 

That is my idea of love. And if God is a god worth loving, then that is the way he/she/it would be.

 

My mother was a bit more strict and disapproving, and this made communication difficult with her. When she died it fucked me up because I felt like she hadn't really known me completely because I had to hide so much stuff from her.

 

But even in her example, she would never have punished me with ever-lasting pain for not living up to her expectations of me.

 

I'll say again that if God is God he would never do such a horrible thing. That is not a loving God, that is not a God who respects people's free will. In short that is not a God who treats people like adults.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No. I didn’t say an invisible God exists. I said the “possibility” of an invisible God exists.

And that statement is meaningful how? All you are doing is couching your belief in an assertion of "possibility". Let's talk about "probability". At this point your statement is about as valuable to someone as saying the possibility exists that a magical man in a red suit descends the chimneys of every single house in the world in a single night once a year. That's a possiblity too, but how probable is that???

 

You must concur or prove the “possibility” of this God doesn’t exist. You can’t.

I must not prove anything. You are guilty of a classic logic fallacy. Behold:

Shifting the burden of proof

 

The burden of proof is always on the person asserting something. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of Argumentum ad Ignorantiam, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.

 

For further discussion of this idea, see the "Introduction to Atheism" document.

 

"OK, so if you don't think the grey aliens have gained control of the US government, can you prove it?"

I must not prove anything. You are making the positive assertion, whether you couch it in the supposedly safer term "possibility" or not. Saying something is "possible" is making a positive assertion, and therefore the burden of proof lies entirely on you. I have absolutely no responsibity to counter your positive assertion of "possiblities" with negative proofs. Don't shift your responsiblity to others.

 

Don't expect anyone to find any value in your views of "possibilites" unless you have something substantial to back up statements like that. At this point it has as much value as saying it is "possible" the Trix Cereal Rabitt is God.

 

Anyway using your logic, you have to admit, it is possible that Jesus was space alien, and the Bible is secret code from Extra Terrestials from Planet X. Right?

 

So now where do we go?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quick,

 

Just curious. Is punishment by God intended to reform or destroy?

 

Destroy.

 

Ahhh. I thought I recognized you. It's interesting to see you interact here where there are fewer rules of conduct.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He "friend" of yours?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
He "friend" of yours?

 

Hardly. I suspect that he's a poster I used to see with some frequency on Christian forums. Here's a sample of the nonsense that the "Quick" on CF spouted:

 

http://www.christianforums.com/t3132542-go...-vengeance.html

 

If the Quick here is indeed the same as the Quick on CF, we will all soon be treated to more examples of his hate-filled theology.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.