Kick-starting Autonomous Thinking In Christians

[Ouroboros]

I don't do religion or acid any more. Neither gives one a dose of reality. God can and does.

I'm lucky, I never tried drugs (at least not heavier than smoking and drinking).

 

Religion, going to the church and sing and dance and all that stuff, that is a drug too. It releases endorphins and stuff, so people really get high from those things (I know I did!). So no wonder people start seeing stuff. I know a couple of times when I really felt dizzy and thought I was going to pass out. I know now that it was some kind of mental hyper-state from all the chanting. No wonder that kind of church cult is so popular. People get addicted!

[Quick]

Damn glad to meet you!

 

Now, if the notion of God or a creator comes from man - how does a mere man without any scientific knowledge relate things such as the theory of creation? What about the idea that life is in the blood?

The blood as a symbol for life isn't so difficult to figure out. By pure observation for the early man, they could conclude that bleeding was pretty bad for a person. They went pale and then stopped breathing and then never moved again. And the same for breath. That's where the idea to spirit, ghost etc comes from. They basically believed the essence of a human (or life) is in the breath and/or the blood, based on pure observation (or in a sense scientifc study, limited to the degree of knowledge they had).

 

Must not have been if bleeding was a medicinal practice in the middle ages.

 

The kicker that really gets me is the end times. John described a nuclear detonation in the desert before man even knew bacteria caused illness. Where does this knowledge come from?

Dude, I don't know about that. I think that's just your way of re-interpreting a vague story into your own understanding of contemporary knowledge. Those statements are so fuzzy that in 50 years when new technology and weapons exists, many will apply those verses on those times instead.

 

You didn't answer. Where does this knowledge come from? John definitely described a nuclear detonation. You can't see that?

[Ouroboros]

Christianity isn't a total lie. I guess I do hold on to some of it. Luke was a doctor.

I see. But you do see yourself somewhat as an ex-Christian, because you pretty much have severed the lines to structured and organized religion?

 

I think that was something I kind of did too a couple of years before de-converting. I still had my faith, but I had a hard time finding a church that were honest and sincere. Everyone seemed so shallow. And these social cliques bothered my wife quite a bit. People had different class depending on who they knew. Why would a church have class structure? It's so wrong! If it's supposed to be an even game that everyone are the same and are in the same boat, then your grade on the social ladder should not be of importance. In my first church there wasn't much of dividing into classes. We had a very rich man in that church and he was down to earth, just as simple as everyone else. That kind of church pretty disappeared in the 80's or 90's I think.

[Quick]

Damn glad to meet you!

 

Now, if the notion of God or a creator comes from man - how does a mere man without any scientific knowledge relate things such as the theory of creation? What about the idea that life is in the blood?

The blood as a symbol for life isn't so difficult to figure out. By pure observation for the early man, they could conclude that bleeding was pretty bad for a person. They went pale and then stopped breathing and then never moved again. And the same for breath. That's where the idea to spirit, ghost etc comes from. They basically believed the essence of a human (or life) is in the breath and/or the blood, based on pure observation (or in a sense scientifc study, limited to the degree of knowledge they had).

 

The kicker that really gets me is the end times. John described a nuclear detonation in the desert before man even knew bacteria caused illness. Where does this knowledge come from?

Dude, I don't know about that. I think that's just your way of re-interpreting a vague story into your own understanding of contemporary knowledge. Those statements are so fuzzy that in 50 years when new technology and weapons exists, many will apply those verses on those times instead.

[Ouroboros]

You didn't answer. Where does this knowledge come from? John definitely described a nuclear detonation. You can't see that?

Do you mean the knowledge of "blood = life", or the "nuclear detonation"?

 

First of all, blood isn't exactly equated to life. Are amoebas alive or dead? So I don't think it counts as a perfect or absolute knowledge, since it isn't a perfect fact. The knowledge that life was related to, or important to life, came from pure observation and experience. I don't see why that's a problem...

 

If you mean the "knowledge" of the "creation"? Well, the story isn't perfect either. It tells you that there are "days" during this creation, and the question is from where in space do you have day and night? The answer is no-where, because it is only a local phenomenon you can experience in a specific spot on a planet. God didn't create the universe based on a spot from Earth. That doesn't make sense. And then we have the plants created before the sun and the moon. What's up with that? Didn't they need the sun to grow up? If there was light before the sun was created, from where did that light come from? Excuse me, but I can do a better project plan in Microsoft Project.

 

And regarding the nuclear detonation, please give me the verse and lets have a look.

[Thurisaz]

I don’t accept a God that doesn’t make sense. God makes perfect sense.

 

Your gawd, according to da wholly babble, got itself killed to redeem itself so that it wouldn't have to roast its beloved creations in hell forever. Yeah right, makes perfect sense.

 

The theory of evolution suggests man evolved from dirt

 

Translation: "I'm a braindead moron who doesn't know shit about science".

 

You want to blame this on him? You feel he creates this turmoil, this evil? It ain’t him doing it. It’s man. Man in his wisdom.

 

Your gawd must be one sick evil sadistic motherfucker to sit by idly then.

 

You lose again.

 

I'm sure you're not surprised. Morontheists are losers by definition.

[Thurisaz]

John described a nuclear detonation in the desert

 

 

[Thurisaz]

I don't do religion or acid any more. Neither gives one a dose of reality. God can and does.

 

That's gotta be the shortest morontheist selfcontradiction in this thread so far.

[Japedo]

John described a nuclear detonation in the desert

 

 

 

 

I Love it Thurisaz!!!!

[Quick]

Damn glad to meet you!

 

Now, if the notion of God or a creator comes from man - how does a mere man without any scientific knowledge relate things such as the theory of creation? What about the idea that life is in the blood?

The blood as a symbol for life isn't so difficult to figure out. By pure observation for the early man, they could conclude that bleeding was pretty bad for a person. They went pale and then stopped breathing and then never moved again. And the same for breath. That's where the idea to spirit, ghost etc comes from. They basically believed the essence of a human (or life) is in the breath and/or the blood, based on pure observation (or in a sense scientifc study, limited to the degree of knowledge they had).

 

I suppose this could be true. Just simple deduction from natural events.

 

The kicker that really gets me is the end times. John described a nuclear detonation in the desert before man even knew bacteria caused illness. Where does this knowledge come from?

Dude, I don't know about that. I think that's just your way of re-interpreting a vague story into your own understanding of contemporary knowledge. Those statements are so fuzzy that in 50 years when new technology and weapons exists, many will apply those verses on those times instead.

 

Well, a nuclear blast does two things for sure. It turns sand into glass and melts flesh off the bone. I have to continue to believe that this knowledge wasn’t a lucky guess.

[Quick]

...

 

So, if you truly feel in your heart that God is Bullshit, why bother talking to people like me?

 

Didn't Paul instruct the followers of Jesus to refrain from "unwholesome" speech? Why do you throw around foul language and foul accusations so consistently? I'm not trying to antagonize you, just curious about what seems to me to be a disconnect between the faith you claim to claim and the way in which you speak and address people on this forum.

 

-CC

 

Well, I'm not exactly a christian by your standards. Pay attention, I repond to those using foul language with the same foul language. It seems that is all they understand.

[Quick]

That could very well be.

 

I feel sorry for such delusional people. They have entrenched their minds into a nest of dogma worms and they can't get out.

 

If he causes to much problem, he'll be booted out. He will feel the blessing of my shoe, and the judgement of his ass. "Vengeance is mine, says Hans."

 

So you think this other Quick is me? Now that's delusional.

[Quick]

I don’t accept a God that doesn’t make sense. God makes perfect sense.

 

Your gawd, according to da wholly babble, got itself killed to redeem itself so that it wouldn't have to roast its beloved creations in hell forever. Yeah right, makes perfect sense.

 

How about you comprehend something I actually say? I’m ex-christian and the babble you keep spouting doesn’t apply to my beliefs.

 

The theory of evolution suggests man evolved from dirt

 

Translation: "I'm a braindead moron who doesn't know shit about science".

 

You are?

 

You want to blame this on him? You feel he creates this turmoil, this evil? It ain’t him doing it. It’s man. Man in his wisdom.

 

Your gawd must be one sick evil sadistic motherfucker to sit by idly then.

 

If he does nothing to stop it he’s sick and evil – if he does something to stop it he’s sick and evil. He just can’t win in your eyes – can he?

[Ouroboros]

The kicker that really gets me is the end times. John described a nuclear detonation in the desert before man even knew bacteria caused illness. Where does this knowledge come from?

Dude, I don't know about that. I think that's just your way of re-interpreting a vague story into your own understanding of contemporary knowledge. Those statements are so fuzzy that in 50 years when new technology and weapons exists, many will apply those verses on those times instead.

 

Well, a nuclear blast does two things for sure. It turns sand into glass and melts flesh off the bone. I have to continue to believe that this knowledge wasn’t a lucky guess.

Well, by the laws of probability there is always a chance that someone is making a guess that actually comes true.

 

I heard it happens in Lotto, many times a year even, but it never happens to me.

 

Think about the TV series Star Trek. Already in the original series they had a communicator. It worked pretty much like and even somewhat looked like a cell phone! In Space:1999 (in the 70's) they had a communicator too, but it was even better, it had live video feed from the caller.

 

If you look at even earlier sci-fi literature, you will find stories about things that were impossible to make at that time, but later became true.

 

But you might respond with "not all what they did in the sci-fi story has come true" or "the communicator didn't work exactly like a cell phone does", then you have to look at the prophecy in Revelations, and read in the verses before and after. Are those true as well, or do you find plenty of things that has not come true or doesn't fit into a nuclear blast etc? Well if there are parts that don't fit, then Revelations isn't much more prophetic than the sci-fi stories.

 

Another side to the whole prophecy thing is that I think there is a possibility to have a notion about future events. Because we humans are very advanced pattern recognition machines. And our minds are directly dependent on physical laws and events. If the universe is a fractal, then large pattern can become apparent as small patterns (like the saying "history tends to repeat itself"), and sometimes maybe some people have a brain that have a pattern of thought that corresponds with the chaotic pattern of history and they can foresee pieces in some larger scale. I don't know if that makes any sense to you, and it might sound heretic of a naturalist to admit that prophetic vision might be possible, but without divine intervention.

[Quick]

The kicker that really gets me is the end times. John described a nuclear detonation in the desert before man even knew bacteria caused illness. Where does this knowledge come from?

Dude, I don't know about that. I think that's just your way of re-interpreting a vague story into your own understanding of contemporary knowledge. Those statements are so fuzzy that in 50 years when new technology and weapons exists, many will apply those verses on those times instead.

 

Well, a nuclear blast does two things for sure. It turns sand into glass and melts flesh off the bone. I have to continue to believe that this knowledge wasn’t a lucky guess.

Well, by the laws of probability there is always a chance that someone is making a guess that actually comes true.

 

I heard it happens in Lotto, many times a year even, but it never happens to me.

 

Think about the TV series Star Trek. Already in the original series they had a communicator. It worked pretty much like and even somewhat looked like a cell phone! In Space:1999 (in the 70's) they had a communicator too, but it was even better, it had live video feed from the caller.

 

If you look at even earlier sci-fi literature, you will find stories about things that were impossible to make at that time, but later became true.

 

But you might respond with "not all what they did in the sci-fi story has come true" or "the communicator didn't work exactly like a cell phone does", then you have to look at the prophecy in Revelations, and read in the verses before and after. Are those true as well, or do you find plenty of things that has not come true or doesn't fit into a nuclear blast etc? Well if there are parts that don't fit, then Revelations isn't much more prophetic than the sci-fi stories.

 

Another side to the whole prophecy thing is that I think there is a possibility to have a notion about future events. Because we humans are very advanced pattern recognition machines. And our minds are directly dependent on physical laws and events. If the universe is a fractal, then large pattern can become apparent as small patterns (like the saying "history tends to repeat itself"), and sometimes maybe some people have a brain that have a pattern of thought that corresponds with the chaotic pattern of history and they can foresee pieces in some larger scale. I don't know if that makes any sense to you, and it might sound heretic of a naturalist to admit that prophetic vision might be possible, but without divine intervention.

 

Okay, we do seem to be on the same page here. Possibilities and probabilities abound. The difference is that you exclude divine intervention while I still maintain the source of this knowledge is the divine essence. My feeling concerning biblical prophecy is that some things are not a repeat of historical events but a real vision of future events. I left christianity twelve years ago but there is still something within me that keeps God real to me. I can’t deny it’s there.

[Quick]

You didn't answer. Where does this knowledge come from? John definitely described a nuclear detonation. You can't see that?

Do you mean the knowledge of "blood = life", or the "nuclear detonation"?

 

First of all, blood isn't exactly equated to life. Are amoebas alive or dead? So I don't think it counts as a perfect or absolute knowledge, since it isn't a perfect fact. The knowledge that life was related to, or important to life, came from pure observation and experience. I don't see why that's a problem...

 

If you mean the "knowledge" of the "creation"? Well, the story isn't perfect either. It tells you that there are "days" during this creation, and the question is from where in space do you have day and night? The answer is no-where, because it is only a local phenomenon you can experience in a specific spot on a planet. God didn't create the universe based on a spot from Earth. That doesn't make sense. And then we have the plants created before the sun and the moon. What's up with that? Didn't they need the sun to grow up? If there was light before the sun was created, from where did that light come from? Excuse me, but I can do a better project plan in Microsoft Project.

 

And regarding the nuclear detonation, please give me the verse and lets have a look.

 

True, nothing is perfect. Even the best and brightest men today can’t put forth a perfect explanation of existence. How can we hold men of old to the standard of perfection?

 

Oh, it’s been a while since I’ve read up on the end times. John only partially described what I said before. Zechariah provided the other portion of the equation. Sorry about that.

 

Revelation 15:2, “And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire…”

 

Zechariah 14:12, “And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth”

[Thurisaz]

How about you comprehend something I actually say? I’m ex-christian and the babble you keep spouting doesn’t apply to my beliefs.

 

Riiiiiight. That's why you sound just like the standard morontheist.

Face it numbnut: Every morontheist who comes in here and stays for longer claims at some time that she's "an ex-atheist", "an ex-evolutionist", et cetera blah yadda. And what she babbles immediately after that claim betrays the cheap trick within seconds. Always.

You are no exception, cult zombie.

 

If he does nothing to stop it he’s sick and evil – if he does something to stop it he’s sick and evil. He just can’t win in your eyes – can he?

 

Your gawd, if it existed, wouldn't have to face any decision on removing evil from the world if it was loving. It wouldn't have made such a shitty world at all.

[Ouroboros]

Okay, we do seem to be on the same page here. Possibilities and probabilities abound. The difference is that you exclude divine intervention while I still maintain the source of this knowledge is the divine essence. My feeling concerning biblical prophecy is that some things are not a repeat of historical events but a real vision of future events. I left christianity twelve years ago but there is still something within me that keeps God real to me. I can’t deny it’s there.

I can understand the feeling, unfortunately I basically lost my faith when the feeling disappeared. I didn't want to lose that feeling, but it just went away and it's not just a feeling you can make up, it is there or it is not.

 

But you have to admit that Gene Roddenberry must've had a prophetic vision when he made up the communicator/cellphone. (He was an atheist btw. )

[Quick]

Riiiiiight. That's why you sound just like the standard morontheist.

Face it numbnut: Every morontheist who comes in here and stays for longer claims at some time that she's "an ex-atheist", "an ex-evolutionist", et cetera blah yadda. And what she babbles immediately after that claim betrays the cheap trick within seconds. Always.

You are no exception, cult zombie.

 

I am monogenes – one of a kind. You’ll see that if you actually converse about something.

 

Your gawd, if it existed, wouldn't have to face any decision on removing evil from the world if it was loving. It wouldn't have made such a shitty world at all.

 

Once again, you fail to grasp the obvious. Men have made this a shitty place to exist.

[Ouroboros]

True, nothing is perfect. Even the best and brightest men today can’t put forth a perfect explanation of existence. How can we hold men of old to the standard of perfection?

Here's a thought for you.

 

Do we know more or do we know less about nature, science and philosophy today compared to 1000 or 2000 years ago?

 

If we know more (like relativity, quantum mechanics ...) did we get that additional knowledge from God or from observation and deduction?

 

Revelation 15:2, “And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire…”

Sounds like burning oil on the sea. It could be the Exxon accident some years ago. Didn't they burn up a part of the oil? Oil on water do look like glass when it reflects the light.

 

Zechariah 14:12, “And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth”

First of all it says plague, and a nuclear blast is not a plague but an instant explosion. This could be a description of a nanotech weapon too, which we won't have until 2040 or later.

 

--edit--

 

And why doesn't it say anything about the hair and the clothes? They burn away first. I think ol' Zech sounds like he is describing the Indiana Jones movie rather than what actually would happen. Depending on which kind of bomb too, there would be a total annihilation of everything in the surroundings, which Zach doesn't tell you about. You know what, I will look into it this afternoon and see if there are any good, real, descriptions of what happens in a nuclear blast.

[Quick]

Okay, we do seem to be on the same page here. Possibilities and probabilities abound. The difference is that you exclude divine intervention while I still maintain the source of this knowledge is the divine essence. My feeling concerning biblical prophecy is that some things are not a repeat of historical events but a real vision of future events. I left christianity twelve years ago but there is still something within me that keeps God real to me. I can’t deny it’s there.

I can understand the feeling, unfortunately I basically lost my faith when the feeling disappeared. I didn't want to lose that feeling, but it just went away and it's not just a feeling you can make up, it is there or it is not.

 

But you have to admit that Gene Roddenberry must've had a prophetic vision when he made up the communicator/cellphone. (He was an atheist btw. )

 

 

Okay, so you do know what keeps my thoughts focused on the divine essence? I keep the feeling alive by talking to him. Mostly, I ask him why? Why me?

 

Yeah, Gene was definitely ahead of his time. I paid dearly for that Motorola StarTac phone. I just had to have it. I have the V3i now, with video capability.

[Ouroboros]

Okay, so you do know what keeps my thoughts focused on the divine essence? I keep the feeling alive by talking to him. Mostly, I ask him why? Why me?

Well, it didn't work for me.

 

Yeah, Gene was definitely ahead of his time. I paid dearly for that Motorola StarTac phone. I just had to have it. I have the V3i now, with video capability.

Niice.

 

Next is that we need to get those teleporters and warp drives working.

 

Okay, I will tell you another prophesy that seems to become true: Ragnarok. It predicts that the world will go into a multi-year winter, and this is something that very well could happen through (funny enough) the global warming, because the global warming is melting the polar caps (fresh water) and will change the saline levels and the conveyors will shut down and the we'll enter a new ice age. Very paradoxical, but yet that's what is predicted.

 

It also predicts war between all countries and families, and not only that, but the fire giants, led by the giant Surt, will leave Muspell in the south to join against the gods. Surt, carrying a sword that blazes like the sun itself, will scorch the earth. Just like a nuclear bomb would do. The bombs are like fire giants, and who knows, maybe the bomb of all bombs will be named Surt?

 

Hail Thor!

[Quick]

Here's a thought for you.

 

Do we know more or do we know less about nature, science and philosophy today compared to 1000 or 2000 years ago?

 

If we know more (like relativity, quantum mechanics ...) did we get that additional knowledge from God or from observation and deduction?

 

Observation and deduction. We’ve had a couple thousand years or so to deduce things concerning our world. Are they really any different from what those men of old told us? Remember, they did not have access to computers, calculators, telescopes or microscopes.

 

Sounds like burning oil on the sea. It could be the Exxon accident some years ago. Didn't they burn up a part of the oil? Oil on water do look like glass when it reflects the light.

 

No. I was an Air Force munitions technician for a long time. We joked about turning sand into glass all the time, especially during the Gulf War. When I read what John said, the truth electrified me.

 

First of all it says plague, and a nuclear blast is not a plague but an instant explosion. This could be a description of a nanotech weapon too, which we won't have until 2040 or later.

 

--edit--

 

And why doesn't it say anything about the hair and the clothes? They burn away first. I think ol' Zech sounds like he is describing the Indiana Jones movie rather than what actually would happen. Depending on which kind of bomb too, there would be a total annihilation of everything in the surroundings, which Zach doesn't tell you about. You know what, I will look into it this afternoon and see if there are any good, real, descriptions of what happens in a nuclear blast.

 

Again, quibbling over man’s limited knowledge and choice of words doesn’t change the meat of what he is saying. Do check it out. Ground zero is the point total annihilation. Several kilometers away from ground zero brings on what Zach said. Remember, while they’re standing, the flesh falls off the body.

[Ouroboros]

Again, quibbling over man’s limited knowledge and choice of words doesn’t change the meat of what he is saying. Do check it out. Ground zero is the point total annihilation. Several kilometers away from ground zero brings on what Zach said. Remember, while they’re standing, the flesh falls off the body.

It is important, because the word in Zech for how the flesh rots away, is really a word that means rot and not burn. Rotting is a process that includes bacteria and not a nuclear burn. I think you see what you want to see, and I've noticed that some people take more heed to these kind of "signs" than others. Some people get a jolt of fear when they see a car license plate with the numbers 666 on it and immediately assume the person or the maker of the car or something is connected to Antichrist. It's the same kind of reaction or process in the brain that see the virgin Mary on toasts (when in fact it is really Marilyn Monroe in a nun dress ).

 

A prophesy becomes important to you just because the text is vague enough to be interpreted in million ways, but you read your imagery and experience into that text (image) and suddenly you can only see that pattern and no other patterns.

 

I don't see the Zech prophesy as a description of a nuclear blast. Too many important details are missing.

 

You have to realize that when most people talk about a nuclear bomb they think of a mushroom cloud, not rotting tongues. If a prophet really did see a vision of the future, they would take more notice of the enormous blast and the huge cloud looking like a mushroom way before they even got to point out that the eyes and tongues started to rot!

 

Sorry pal, it doesn't jive to me. But may the Cute Bunny bless you for seeing it.

 

--edit--

 

Btw, here's a website full of "fulfilled" prophecies from all religions pointing to that Baha'i is the "true" religion.

 

One can see, what one want to see.

[Quick]

[Okay, I will tell you another prophesy that seems to become true: Ragnarok. It predicts that the world will go into a multi-year winter, and this is something that very well could happen through (funny enough) the global warming, because the global warming is melting the polar caps (fresh water) and will change the saline levels and the conveyors will shut down and the we'll enter a new ice age. Very paradoxical, but yet that's what is predicted.

 

Personally, I see nuclear winter as more likely to happen than this propaganda attached to global warming. Then again, I’m a realist.

 

It also predicts war between all countries and families, and not only that, but the fire giants, led by the giant Surt, will leave Muspell in the south to join against the gods. Surt, carrying a sword that blazes like the sun itself, will scorch the earth. Just like a nuclear bomb would do. The bombs are like fire giants, and who knows, maybe the bomb of all bombs will be named Surt?

 

That’s funny. How about this one? Saddam proclaimed the second Gulf War was to be the mother of all battles. The bunker buster bomb we developed to get him in his hole was nicknamed the mother of all bombs. Do you know the significance of MOAB? Search it in your bible if you still have one.