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Kick-starting Autonomous Thinking In Christians


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Again, quibbling over man’s limited knowledge and choice of words doesn’t change the meat of what he is saying. Do check it out. Ground zero is the point total annihilation. Several kilometers away from ground zero brings on what Zach said. Remember, while they’re standing, the flesh falls off the body.

It is important, because the word in Zech for how the flesh rots away, is really a word that means rot and not burn. Rotting is a process that includes bacteria and not a nuclear burn. I think you see what you want to see, and I've noticed that some people take more heed to these kind of "signs" than others. Some people get a jolt of fear when they see a car license plate with the numbers 666 on it and immediately assume the person or the maker of the car or something is connected to Antichrist. It's the same kind of reaction or process in the brain that see the virgin Mary on toasts (when in fact it is really Marilyn Monroe in a nun dress ;) ).

 

A prophesy becomes important to you just because the text is vague enough to be interpreted in million ways, but you read your imagery and experience into that text (image) and suddenly you can only see that pattern and no other patterns.

 

I don't see the Zech prophesy as a description of a nuclear blast. Too many important details are missing.

 

You have to realize that when most people talk about a nuclear bomb they think of a mushroom cloud, not rotting tongues. If a prophet really did see a vision of the future, they would take more notice of the enormous blast and the huge cloud looking like a mushroom way before they even got to point out that the eyes and tongues started to rot!

 

Sorry pal, it doesn't jive to me. But may the Cute Bunny bless you for seeing it.

 

--edit--

 

Btw, here's a website full of "fulfilled" prophecies from all religions pointing to that Baha'i is the "true" religion.

 

One can see, what one want to see.

 

The word Zechariah uses is maqaq, it means to melt - not rot. Can you trust that I have researched this just a little?

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The word Zechariah uses is maqaq, it means to melt - not rot. Can you trust that I have researched this just a little?

So have I:

Maqaq - Strong's Number: 04743

maw-kak' Verb

 

Definition

to decay, pine away, rot, fester

(Niphal)

to fester (of wounds)

to rot, rot away

to moulder away

to pine away

(Hiphil) to cause to rot

 

King James Word Usage - Total: 10

pine away 4, consume away 4, corrupt 1, dissolved 1

 

 

Same word used here:

Ps 38:1 O LORD, rebuke me not in thy wrath: neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure. 2 For thine arrows stick fast in me, and thy hand presseth me sore. 3 There is no soundness in my flesh because of thine anger; neither is there any rest in my bones because of my sin. 4 For mine iniquities are gone over mine head: as an heavy burden they are too heavy for me. 5 My wounds stink and are corrupt because of my foolishness.

It doesn't mean burning away, but you can see how the poetic language lends itself to the understanding it is an expression of disease.

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The word Zechariah uses is maqaq, it means to melt - not rot. Can you trust that I have researched this just a little?

So have I:

Maqaq - Strong's Number: 04743

maw-kak' Verb

 

Definition

to decay, pine away, rot, fester

(Niphal)

to fester (of wounds)

to rot, rot away

to moulder away

to pine away

(Hiphil) to cause to rot

 

King James Word Usage - Total: 10

pine away 4, consume away 4, corrupt 1, dissolved 1

 

 

Same word used here:

Ps 38:1 O LORD, rebuke me not in thy wrath: neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure. 2 For thine arrows stick fast in me, and thy hand presseth me sore. 3 There is no soundness in my flesh because of thine anger; neither is there any rest in my bones because of my sin. 4 For mine iniquities are gone over mine head: as an heavy burden they are too heavy for me. 5 My wounds stink and are corrupt because of my foolishness.

It doesn't mean burning away, but you can see how the poetic language lends itself to the understanding it is an expression of disease.

 

Neither chasten me in thy HOT displeasure?

 

1984 Strong's says melt. I'll stick with that.

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Mine is the (Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius) Hebrew lexicon (Online edition). I think itt's considered a better lexicon than Strongs. But it has the Strong reference number as you saw.

 

And you're quite funny! "Hot displeasure" is figuratively for "extremely", "very". It's just like the phrase "God is a rock", meaning he isn't supposed to be a piece of stone, but his unmovable as a rock.

 

"Hot displeasure":

Strong's Number: 02534

Chemah

khay-maw'

 

Definition

heat, rage, hot displeasure, indignation, anger, wrath, poison, bottles

heat

fever

venom, poison (fig.)

burning anger, rage

 

King James Word Usage - Total: 124

fury 67, wrath 34, poison 6, furious 4, displeasure 3, rage 2, anger 1, bottles 1, furious + (01167) 1, furiously 1, heat 1, indignation 1, wrathful 1, wroth 1

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Mine is the (Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius) Hebrew lexicon (Online edition). I think itt's considered a better lexicon than Strongs. But it has the Strong reference number as you saw.

 

And you're quite funny! "Hot displeasure" is figuratively for "extremely", "very". It's just like the phrase "God is a rock", meaning he isn't supposed to be a piece of stone, but his unmovable as a rock.

 

"Hot displeasure":

Strong's Number: 02534

Chemah

khay-maw'

 

Definition

heat, rage, hot displeasure, indignation, anger, wrath, poison, bottles

heat

fever

venom, poison (fig.)

burning anger, rage

 

King James Word Usage - Total: 124

fury 67, wrath 34, poison 6, furious 4, displeasure 3, rage 2, anger 1, bottles 1, furious + (01167) 1, furiously 1, heat 1, indignation 1, wrathful 1, wroth 1

 

Right. Eventually, man will write the ultimate truth. Trinitarians will write their truth, oneness folks will write their truth, non-believers will write their truth. Everybody will have their truth – but none will have THE TRUTH.

 

Anyway, it’s prom night here and I have to do my duty. Please don’t give me your boot of justice just yet. I actually do like conversing with you. Maybe we can learn something from one another or not. Anyway, give me a few more days, if you will.

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Right. Eventually, man will write the ultimate truth. Trinitarians will write their truth, oneness folks will write their truth, non-believers will write their truth. Everybody will have their truth – but none will have THE TRUTH.

Right. No one have the full undertstanding, and it's because of our limited minds. Hence, being agnostic makes more sense to me. :)

 

Anyway, it’s prom night here and I have to do my duty. Please don’t give me your boot of justice just yet. I actually do like conversing with you. Maybe we can learn something from one another or not. Anyway, give me a few more days, if you will.

Not a problem. Talk later. Good luck with the prom duties.

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Right. Eventually, man will write the ultimate truth. Trinitarians will write their truth, oneness folks will write their truth, non-believers will write their truth. Everybody will have their truth – but none will have THE TRUTH.

Right. No one have the full undertstanding, and it's because of our limited minds. Hence, being agnostic makes more sense to me. :)

 

Anyway, it’s prom night here and I have to do my duty. Please don’t give me your boot of justice just yet. I actually do like conversing with you. Maybe we can learn something from one another or not. Anyway, give me a few more days, if you will.

Not a problem. Talk later. Good luck with the prom duties.

 

Sorry, didn’t mean to kill the thread. Looks like everyone but you and I have left. But that’s okay with me since the rest weren’t really hittin’ on ..... Anyway, weather had/has me down. I live in a very rural area. Satellite internet and one power line is all I have. When either goes down, I’m down for the count.

 

So, a combined post is what I am offering now. Easier to keep track of our conversation.

 

As best as I can remember, we were discussing some end times prophecy. Plagues and the word consumed. Plagues do not necessarily mean disease. There were PLAGUES of frogs, locusts, hail, etc. None had to do with disease. The Hebrew words used to describe plagues are many, check them out. Also, further review of “maqaq” shows the meaning in Hebrew supports “to melt”. Look at more than one source, I always do.

 

I still, after review of your explanation and knowledge I’ve gained through research, believe men of old saw visions of things they did not comprehend nor could explain do to their limited vocabulary. Where did this knowledge come from? They said from their God. I believe them and still maintain this “feeling” of God’s presence within me is the reason why.

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The "to melt" that you are referring to is also a figurative speech. Like the "pine away" means like "fading away", and lose vigor, health, or flesh, as through grief. So even if you see some references to "melt" it is not to be taken literally as melting like you melt wax or butter in a microwave, but "melting" as in "her facial expression melted away after throwing away her lotto ticket and then hearing that she won the jackpot."

 

Plague can be war, sure, but not necessarily nuclear war, and when the interpretation is open, the prophecy isn't "exact". So to me, saying that the author wrote about a future event, but described it in vague expressions, and claim that to be somehow "exact" of a description, it just doesn't do it for me. It's done over and over again, and it just doesn't mean anything. It's just like when illusionists and "future tellers" use cold-reading. Nothing supernatural to it.

 

But besides that, I guess you didn't notice how I earlier made a little segment of admitting to how a "prophetic" ability could be incorporated in a fully naturalistic world?

 

--edit--

 

I was thinking about one thing in my car on the way home, lets say that some managed to have real prophetic visions and wrote them down. And I'm including Aztecs, Indians, Hindus and what-ever-else, why would that prove a specific God or just one God at all? Maybe we are the god-stuff, and that's why we can tap into the prophetic visions. Maybe it's because we're one with the some omniscient energy in the Universe?

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Sorry, didn’t mean to kill the thread. Looks like everyone but you and I have left. But that’s okay with me since the rest weren’t really hittin’ on .....

Wow...I didn't notice this thread was still going. I guess it got pinned and escaped my notice.

 

So, you're not that Quick from the other website? :phew: That is a relief.

 

I'll have to jump in if you start "really hittin' on" something good. :HaHa:

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The "to melt" that you are referring to is also a figurative speech. Like the "pine away" means like "fading away", and lose vigor, health, or flesh, as through grief. So even if you see some references to "melt" it is not to be taken literally as melting like you melt wax or butter in a microwave, but "melting" as in "her facial expression melted away after throwing away her lotto ticket and then hearing that she won the jackpot."

 

Plague can be war, sure, but not necessarily nuclear war, and when the interpretation is open, the prophecy isn't "exact". So to me, saying that the author wrote about a future event, but described it in vague expressions, and claim that to be somehow "exact" of a description, it just doesn't do it for me. It's done over and over again, and it just doesn't mean anything. It's just like when illusionists and "future tellers" use cold-reading. Nothing supernatural to it.

 

But besides that, I guess you didn't notice how I earlier made a little segment of admitting to how a "prophetic" ability could be incorporated in a fully naturalistic world?

 

--edit--

 

I was thinking about one thing in my car on the way home, lets say that some managed to have real prophetic visions and wrote them down. And I'm including Aztecs, Indians, Hindus and what-ever-else, why would that prove a specific God or just one God at all? Maybe we are the god-stuff, and that's why we can tap into the prophetic visions. Maybe it's because we're one with the some omniscient energy in the Universe?

 

Figurative speech is the way a word is used; pine away, fading away, lose vigor, etc. That is not the meaning of a word. To melt is the meaning of the word, maqaq. It is interpreted in many ways, FIGURATIVELY. Zechariah chose a word that didn’t mean rot. There are other Hebrew words that mean rot.

 

Plague can be war. It does not necessarily mean disease. We agree and thank you. Yes, I did notice you said “prophecy” can be part of your naturalistic world but you also said it comes from the telling of history repeating itself. This is different.

 

I’m not saying prophecy proves a specific God. I’m saying prophecy keeps God alive in me. You chose another route.

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Sorry, didn’t mean to kill the thread. Looks like everyone but you and I have left. But that’s okay with me since the rest weren’t really hittin’ on .....

Wow...I didn't notice this thread was still going. I guess it got pinned and escaped my notice.

 

So, you're not that Quick from the other website? :phew: That is a relief.

 

I'll have to jump in if you start "really hittin' on" something good. :HaHa:

 

Pay attention, I'm sure you'll find something I say disagreeable to your worldly view.

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  • 5 months later...
Guest fellthecross
In my efforts to kick-start autonomous thinking in christians on the CARM forums (which I am using as a test bed to refine my ultimate goal of finding a way to intentionally bring about the deconversion of christians), I have found something (not my own discovery, but one I have fine tuned) that appears to be cutting through Faith's defense in a peculiar manner. It is in regards to the Ten Commandments, which are a major pillar of christian faith. This may be common knowledge to us, but for christians, I have found it to remain largely ignored or unrealized.

 

Exodus 34:1 - Now the LORD said to Moses, "Cut out for yourself two stone tablets like the former ones, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered.

 

If you actually sit down and write out the commandments in Exodus 20 and Exodus 34 (the first and second sets), the first couple commandments match, but then are no longer congruent. In essense, God said the words would be the same, and they are not. I ask why this is.

 

What I have found on CARM is this:

1. At least one prominent poster has ceased posting entirely about three weeks ago after trying to compare the two in an attempt to explain it away. This poster has had thousands of posts, and the very last one was his/her attempt to reconcile the two sets in accordance with Exodus 34:1.

2. Multiple fundamentalists have admitted in both responding post and in private message that it has really made them re-examine their faith.

 

I think it is particularily effective because it is an attack on a pillar of christian Faith itself, and not just the outskirts of faith, like pointing out a contradiction of genealogies that don't match, which is not.

 

In this, it seems to have kick-started autonomous thinking within at least a few christians on the site.

 

Of course, all of this may mean nothing as well and that I am just one evil motherfucker.

 

Hi Poonis,

 

CARM is a shit site full of proto evangelists. Didn't they ban you. they don't let you reason.

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  • 1 year later...

I have to admit that I'm not seeing anything contradictory at all.

 

In Exodus 20 are the ten commandments. In Exodus 34, it appears to me that in addition to the ten commandments that Moses came down with, he also was to write down the covenant that HaShem was making with his people.

 

I, of course, am using the Tanakh version. But I also quickly skimmed over the NIV and couldn't see any contradictions.

 

I'm befuddled, I guess.

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Guest FaithofSolarDaevas
dot dot dot "'I have to admit that I'm not seeing anything contradictory at all.

I'm befuddled, I guess."

I do not understand slipery stated goal(s) of "deconverting" the converted,.

 

Moses, he was trying a bit of theater; it's not like he was ever known for his fits of peak

Wait a second

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dot dot dot "'I have to admit that I'm not seeing anything contradictory at all.

I'm befuddled, I guess."

I do not understand slipery stated goal(s) of "deconverting" the converted,.

 

Moses, he was trying a bit of theater; it's not like he was ever known for his fits of peak

Wait a second

 

Yeah! I just presume it's an exercize of deconversion that some might go through.

 

I have a friend who, when she would break up with a boyfriend, she had to go through this process of breaking down the entire relationship. Maybe it's a bit like that.

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In my efforts to kick-start autonomous thinking in christians on the CARM forums (which I am using as a test bed to refine my ultimate goal of finding a way to intentionally bring about the deconversion of christians), I have found something (not my own discovery, but one I have fine tuned) that appears to be cutting through Faith's defense in a peculiar manner. It is in regards to the Ten Commandments, which are a major pillar of christian faith. This may be common knowledge to us, but for christians, I have found it to remain largely ignored or unrealized.

 

Exodus 34:1 - Now the LORD said to Moses, "Cut out for yourself two stone tablets like the former ones, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered.

 

If you actually sit down and write out the commandments in Exodus 20 and Exodus 34 (the first and second sets), the first couple commandments match, but then are no longer congruent. In essense, God said the words would be the same, and they are not. I ask why this is.

 

What I have found on CARM is this:

1. At least one prominent poster has ceased posting entirely about three weeks ago after trying to compare the two in an attempt to explain it away. This poster has had thousands of posts, and the very last one was his/her attempt to reconcile the two sets in accordance with Exodus 34:1.

2. Multiple fundamentalists have admitted in both responding post and in private message that it has really made them re-examine their faith.

 

I think it is particularily effective because it is an attack on a pillar of christian Faith itself, and not just the outskirts of faith, like pointing out a contradiction of genealogies that don't match, which is not.

 

In this, it seems to have kick-started autonomous thinking within at least a few christians on the site.

 

Of course, all of this may mean nothing as well and that I am just one evil motherfucker.

i'm new to the site, and if it has kick-started autonomous thinking within some Christians here, that's great.

 

one thing i like doing is, just making people re-think. i remember as a Christian, people try to be apostles or disciples or christ himself and try to force their own conviction upon other people. there were many theories in Christianity that while i believed in the religion never made any sense. sometimes i think people need a refreshment, to just learn to question and critically examine your beliefs, if for no other reason, to know that you actually do believe in what you say you believe. i do it to myself as well. even as an atheist now.

 

if a believer still believes afterwards, that's fine. if they deconvert, that's fine as well. it doesn't matter what the outcome to me would be. all that matters is that people think for themselves and come to their own conclusions.

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 1 year later...

i remember when i was a xtian all the different names given to god. it boggles the mind! i recall some songs where thats all the lyrics were . just all the different names for god. yahweh, jehovah, rose of sharon, lion of judah blah blah blah...dont they call that disorder schizoprhenia?? pick one!

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i remember when i was a xtian all the different names given to god. it boggles the mind! i recall some songs where thats all the lyrics were . just all the different names for god. yahweh, jehovah, rose of sharon, lion of judah blah blah blah...dont they call that disorder schizoprhenia?? pick one!

Several of those names exists in the Ugarit texts, which are holy scriptures from the Babylonian era and mixed with pagan beliefs: Elohim, Adonai, etc.

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  • 1 year later...

Don't underestimate the power of apology :)

 

Clearly the Bible is inerrant, so there cannot be a contradiction here. In verse 34:1, God said he was going to write the list from Exodus 20 on some stone tablets. Then in verse 27, God told Moses to write down the new list of 10. Clearly, God must have written down the first ten, and then given Moses a second ten to write down on his own.

 

Where might it have happened? Verse 5, of course. "Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD." This is obviously a euphemism for "wrote the law down on the stones."

 

See? No contradiction!

 

woohoo.gif

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  • 11 months later...

I apologize if this has been stated already... how about a larger view? Teach critical thinking in public schools. Early... actually base education on critical thinking. ( i realize this doesn't touch the home schooled, but I'm thinking a 'trickle down' effect)

 

It's an idea...

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I apologize if this has been stated already... how about a larger view? Teach critical thinking in public schools. Early... actually base education on critical thinking. ( i realize this doesn't touch the home schooled, but I'm thinking a 'trickle down' effect)

 

It's an idea...

 

 

It wouldn't work. Kids don't have the ability to think critically early on. The brain has to fully develop before it can learn that skill.

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I respectfully disagree.

 

Children begin early questioning their world... why, why why?, is something parents hear constantly. I think if you take this natural trait and encourage them by guiding their questions, instead of giving them answers that you encourage critical thinking.

 

I did this with my daughter, starting with turning the questions around and instead of answering her I asked her what she thinks about something, I LISTEN to her answer and then propose different ways to see her question, and then when a little older I showed her how to search for information (dictionary, etc...). I started this very early and from what i have seen she is far less gullible than a lot of children her age. She has a built in skepticism now. By the age of 8/9 she could analyse the agenda of a tv commercial ( on her level anyway - she was remarkable accurate though, mostly)

 

Part of this process was being honest, from the start, that I don't have all the answers and showing her how I find out things. Part of it was helping her see that not everything you see, hear or read is true... and that there is usually a message behind the message, part of it was not lying to her about Santa. A large part was encouraging her to read.

 

When she was younger i was a deist/pantheist/still struggling with christianity—but i didn't really share much religious information with her other than I thought there may be things we don't understand and that nature was wonderful (and a little woo, I will admit)... as my stance on that is that she should be free of dogma so she can examine it when older.

 

She began asking some questions about religion when she was exposed to christian kids at school and at about this same time she began to make some comments about how she didn't think there was a god, i told her that was something only she could decide for herself but that most people in the world believed in some form of god and she should keep an open mind, and added that it was really important to some people and to try to be sensitive. (my own discomfort with her saying she was an unbeliever made me examine my own thoughts—because I knew it was an EMOTIONAL, not a rational reaction) then about a year and a half ago (age 12) she asked me directly about what christians believe. I gave her my old bible and told her this is what they believe and asked her to read the first story in Genesis (why not start at the beginning- like any other book?) she did this in front of me and started to laugh... and laugh, and then ROTFLOL. Seriously, she had tears in her eyes and was clutching her stomach.

 

She looked at me and said, and I quote, "are you kidding me? they seriously believe this?" Then she gave me back the bible and i put it back on the shelf.

 

That was the last time she showed any interest in religion.

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  • 5 weeks later...

This thread proposes a noble idea, but here is something to consider. I believe 34,0000 variations and sects of Christianity have been identified. Within that general community I can only imagine the enormous number of differing beliefs and traditions that exist. It is well known that many groups, who identify with Christianity, don’t accept any number of other “Christian” group’s as being authentic Christians.

 

I was a member of the Church of Christ. The c of C is generally known for two things. They don’t use instrumental music in worship and they believe they are the only true Christians on earth. They also don’t believe the OT is binding on NT Christians, so they don’t accept the ten commands as applying to them.

 

Deprogramming any zealous religious believer is an enormously monumental task, but I do agree with the stated premise that education is the key. Then there is this old saying to consider…..you can lead a horse to water…….

 

Experience has convinced me that until a believer develops their own doubts deprogramming them is like attempting to teach algebra to a rock. It’s impossible to communicate if the rock refuses to pay attention.

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