Is There A God? Is There Not A God?

[Guest jet]

Here we go again.....

 

I cannot really give an extimony without describing the thought processes that brought me out of the church, so bear with me, please, and we can all go on this amusement park ride together.....

 

Have you heard the one about the dyslexic agnostic who lies awake at night wondering if there really IS a Dog?

 

And here I am, once again pondering the possible existence of god/dess/s/es.

 

How can there be? If there is, it must be universal, for how can a creator favor just one out of gazillions of planets? Within our own galaxy, the possiblilties are enormous that there are, at the very least, thousands of planets that can support life as we know it (ie. carbon-based biped intellectual lifeforms descended from ape-like creatures).

 

If there is, then which of the thousands of gods and goddesses worshipped on this planet is it? Or perhaps it is from a different planet that we will find our god? Are all gods as one? Does each religion have a small piece of the puzzle?

 

Science has shown through mathematical calculations that there must be millions upon millions of smaller universes inside this universe, and it is possible that we are in one of these smaller universes, and that there are even larger ones besides ours, all packed within this one universe in which we reside.

 

And what of that outside our universe? Imagine, if you will, a pot of boiling water. Each bubble represents a universe. Imagine, then, that our universe occupies one of these bubbles. Do the other bubbles encompass other universes outside this one? What about the spaces between the universes? Are there spaces between? What caused those universes? By that same token, what caused ours?

 

If there is, indeed, a superior intelligence, it must then be even more than universal. It must be multiversal, if those other universes have life within them.

 

Or is it from within ourselves that the gods come forth? Those who are familiar with the Bible may know this one......."And Jesus said unto them (his disciples).....Have I not said that ye are gods?" Are WE the gods that stalk our universes?

 

Our subconscious is quite powerful. What we believe is what comes to be. Upon impressing our subconscious with a belief, it begins to work to make it so, to bring about that which we focus on. If, for example, we focus on what is foul, we will see that everything in our life goes sour. If we say, over and over, to ourselves, "I want the best that life has to offer me. I want to be fully alive. I want only positive things in my life", then our subconscious will take note, and work to bring forth that which we desire. What we focus on is that we get.

 

Is there an all-encompassing multiversal superior intelligence? If so, is it supernatural, or is it natural? And what caused it to come into being?

 

Is it that our subconscious is the driving force that leads us to believe in gods? If so, does it tie into an all encompassing multiversal superior intelligence? Or does it not? Is it simply tricks that our minds play on us?

 

Do our collective consciousness together form a universal consciousness, such as Jung wrote about? Are we a part of a much larger whole? If so, does is encompass only this Earth, or just this galaxy, or just this universe? Or does it encompass the whole of all universes, and the spaces between?

 

It is quite enough to ponder these questions. There are people who exhort me to believe in their religion, their god. I cannot, lest I ask too many soul-searching questions and be cast out again, like I was before.

 

I have been asking some of these questions since I was 3 or 4, and in three decades (ok, more than three, but shhhhh, don't tell anybody) of asking said questions, I have yet to find any answers. In my youth, I accepted provisionally the "truths" that I was given by my elders, so long as they made at least a modicum of sense, but I still questioned. In my late teens and early twenties, I struggled to hold on to those "truths", lest the people I depended on cast me away. But despite my holding on, I could not stop asking questions. I was thrown out of several churches and branded as a dissenter. The last Christian church that I was accepted in never heard my questions, because I did not ask them aloud. I attended because I needed a community. I felt like such a hypocrite. After months of internal debate, I finally left that church, and decided to simply learn on my own. Recently, I have found a place where I fit in - Univeral Unitarianism. I am not exhorted to believe in someone else's god, and I am learning much.

 

But still I wonder......Is there a god? Is there not?

 

I think that for me, that question will never be answered. And I can never again be the sheep that I was, for once a mind is expanded, it is impossible to shrink it back down to a narrow point of view again.

[NotBlinded]

Welcome Jet!

 

I loved reading your post; it is so much where I am. (I have Jung on my wish-list at Amazon!)

 

I believe that consciousness is a fundamental property of nature as put forth by David Chalmers and David Bohm (quantum physicist). I am still studying. I also go to a Universal Unitarian Church when I can get my but out of bed!

 

I feel that everything there is, including other universes, wouldn't be without this consciousness. I can't claim to know what it is other than looking in the mirror and all around me.

 

I'm a oneness person!

 

Is it a superior intellegence? I would have to say that we are it and nothing is superior to itself.

 

I hope you stick around!

[Guest jet]

And thank you for your welcome! Haven't gotten around to Chalmers, he's on my own wish list! Never heard of Bolm, tho.....I may just have to go look him up.

Everytime I think I get close to an answer, I come up with more "buts". So, for the moment, anyway, I call myself agnostic.

I'm rather enjoying the give-and-take that I've found at this particular church/gathering/place/whatever-you-call-it. It's so unlike the other places I've been, where one person (the pastor) says what is what, and no one may question it.

Because that's what I'm all about.....questions. To quash someone's inquisitiveness is, to me, the gravest of injustices.

Tata, and thanx again for your kind welcome!

[NotBlinded]

And thank you for your welcome! Haven't gotten around to Chalmers, he's on my own wish list! Never heard of Bolm, tho.....I may just have to go look him up.

Everytime I think I get close to an answer, I come up with more "buts". So, for the moment, anyway, I call myself agnostic.

I'm rather enjoying the give-and-take that I've found at this particular church/gathering/place/whatever-you-call-it. It's so unlike the other places I've been, where one person (the pastor) says what is what, and no one may question it.

Because that's what I'm all about.....questions. To quash someone's inquisitiveness is, to me, the gravest of injustices.

Tata, and thanx again for your kind welcome!

You are very welcome! And, the pastor at the church I go to admits he is agnostic! I found that awesome.

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

I find that debates over the existence of supernatural beings are pointless.

[Guest jet]

I find that debates over the existence of supernatural beings are pointless.

 

Ah, then, if I may say.......perhaps debating them is not for you?

Sorry, hadda do it! teehee

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

I find that debates over the existence of supernatural beings are pointless.

 

Ah, then, if I may say.......perhaps debating them is not for you?

Sorry, hadda do it! teehee

 

 

Yep, debating them is not for me. I used to, don't get me wrong, but it seems to me from reading several posts of those engaged in the debate over the past year or so, and my own encounters, it usually ends up going no where. People are going to believe what they want to, no matter what. Logos cannot be applied to mythos, mythos cannot be applied to logos. It just comes to a point where both sides come to an understanding where I'm right and you're right, or both are wrong. Outside of personal experience, neither side can be right or wrong since that is just as subjective to personal beliefs as the existence or non-existence of a supernatural diety. People who attempt to debate it, in my opinion, usually end up banging their head against the wall in frustration from the futility.

[Guest jet]

I used to, don't get me wrong, but it seems to me from reading several posts of those engaged in the debate over the past year or so, and my own encounters, it usually ends up going no where. People are going to believe what they want to, no matter what. Logos cannot be applied to mythos, mythos cannot be applied to logos. It just comes to a point where both sides come to an understanding where I'm right and you're right, or both are wrong. Outside of personal experience, neither side can be right or wrong since that is just as subjective to personal beliefs as the existence or non-existence of a supernatural diety. People who attempt to debate it, in my opinion, usually end up banging their head against the wall in frustration from the futility.

 

True, wery tru, that people debating it end up going nowhere, and end up banging their head against the wall.

What's even more fun is debating it with oneself! How many psychologists wouldn't want in on THAT?! Just think of all the money to be made......."Ma'am, I do believe you're suffering from split personality disorder. That'll be $200, please."

A more pertinent question for me is, does the other person actually believe what he/she says they believe? (ok, actually more IMpertinent, and really neither here nor there, but an interesting sidebar!)

[Guest tomorrowshorizon]

I find that debates over the existence of supernatural beings are pointless.

 

Ah, then, if I may say.......perhaps debating them is not for you?

Sorry, hadda do it! teehee

 

 

Yep, debating them is not for me. I used to, don't get me wrong, but it seems to me from reading several posts of those engaged in the debate over the past year or so, and my own encounters, it usually ends up going no where. People are going to believe what they want to, no matter what. Logos cannot be applied to mythos, mythos cannot be applied to logos. It just comes to a point where both sides come to an understanding where I'm right and you're right, or both are wrong. Outside of personal experience, neither side can be right or wrong since that is just as subjective to personal beliefs as the existence or non-existence of a supernatural diety. People who attempt to debate it, in my opinion, usually end up banging their head against the wall in frustration from the futility.

 

I agree with you for the most part, but there are definitely people who can snap out of it because of debating. One of the bigger factors in my deconversion was arguing with an agnostic. It wasn't so much that she had irrefutable answers as it was that I realized that my comebacks were utterly bullshit. So, even if you don't think your arguments are making headway, there can be lots of doubts behind those confident Christian shells.

[Aqua Kitty]

Here's the way I look at the god question. I am 100% positive beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Christian god does not exist, so in that regard, I am an atheist.

 

Is there an all-encompassing multiversal superior intelligence? If so, is it supernatural, or is it natural? And what caused it to come into being?

 

And this is where I turn agnostic. I just don't know if there is a superior intelligence in the universe. But if there is, I would have to believe that it is natural rather than supernatural. IMO, the "supernatural" is an invention of the human mind that attempts to explain the seemingly unexplainable.

[Evolution_beyond]

Here's the way I look at the god question. I am 100% positive beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Christian god does not exist, so in that regard, I am an atheist.

 

Is there an all-encompassing multiversal superior intelligence? If so, is it supernatural, or is it natural? And what caused it to come into being?

 

And this is where I turn agnostic. I just don't know if there is a superior intelligence in the universe. But if there is, I would have to believe that it is natural rather than supernatural. IMO, the "supernatural" is an invention of the human mind that attempts to explain the seemingly unexplainable.

 

There can be no such thing as 'supernatural', because if something existed in the universe then it would be natural and not supernatural.

[R. S. Martin]

Is there an all-encompassing multiversal superior intelligence? If so, is it supernatural, or is it natural? And what caused it to come into being?

 

Here is something I wrote earlier today re my position/beliefs:

 

Does God Exist?

• • Argument from design: no good because there does not have to be an intelligent designer behind the things that happen. Snow, wind, and water leave wonderful designs on sand, rock, earth, and snow. These designs are the natural outcome of the movement of the elements upon matter. There are laws by which natural operates. Some people feel better to know that an almighty power is in control of nature. I don't feel this need.
    
  • The existential argument: my brain is not designed to understand the abstract theories of formal philosophy. The study of Paul Tillich's Courage to Be convinced me that I have dealt first-hand throughout my life with the fear of annihilation and I came out on the other side. I have the courage to be and existentialist arguments hold no power over me.
    
  • The Numinous: this argument has power over me. It resonates with my inner self, with what I experience inside of myself. The only thing that can sway me from believing this is God is the argument that the stimulation of a specific part of the brain can produce a variety of religious experiences in the individual. I think I am one of those people for whom that part of the brain is under fairly direct control of the will.
    

It is quite enough to ponder these questions. There are people who exhort me to believe in their religion, their god. I cannot, lest I ask too many soul-searching questions and be cast out again, like I was before.

 

I have been asking some of these questions since I was 3 or 4, and in three decades (ok, more than three, but shhhhh, don't tell anybody) of asking said questions, I have yet to find any answers.

 

Sounds like you come into my age group, more or less. According to how you describe yourself, you and I are alike in very many questions. The unanswered questions, the heroic attempt to accept "provisional" answers with the hope for more understanding later in life.....oh the pain!

 

Jet, it is time to move on. We will never know these "ultimate" answers in this life. We may never have another chance at life. Let us accept that there are no answers to these questions. Then we are free to enjoy this life that we know we have. Learn who you are (sounds like you're well on your way if you have not already arrived) and be true to your Self.

 

I found that humans are basically good, if only love can connect with that goodness. That being the case, when/if we dare be who we are at our deepest level, then we are automatically good and bring forth the fruits of the spirit that the NT says, and live the way Jesus preaches in the sermon on the mount. If he exists and there is an afterlife, they he cannot help but admit us to heaven. He will know how earnestly we sought and how genuine we are. No one in their right mind can reject such a person.

 

Unfortunately, many Christians renounce their "right mind" when it comes to these things. Some are bordering on psychopathology and just barely manage to keep their boat upright so long as no serious storms come along. These psychopathological Christians insist that God feels and wants exactly what they feel and want. That's just plain ridiculous. A God who can create a healthy mind must of necessity be better than the best mind he created. That means he is NOT pathological like these xians insist. (Oh, the cut out the word pathological but their desires are pathological no matter what they insist.)

But still I wonder......Is there a god? Is there not?

 

At Atheist Empire I found some insightful articles:

God and the Brain: Is Belief a Psychological Condition?

A collection of grest articles on the subject.

 

WARNING: If you choose to read these articles, you can never again go back to being a "sheep." You will probably never again be a Christian. I think there is one route that allows us to be Christians without denying these experiences. And that is the mystical route. Mysticism is an ancient tradition and some fundamentalist churches might reject it. However, if I really really really wanted to identify as a Christian, that is the route I would take. It is how I relate to religious people. But when it comes to dogma--forget it. I am a total unbeliever and atheist when it comes to a dogmatic god who led the Israelites out of Egypt and smote the Canaanites. I am an atheist and unbeliever when it comes to a dogmatic heaven and hell. But mystical feelings are not imaginary, as so many materialst atheists want to claim; these feelings are mystical and not imaginary. There is a difference, though I suspect some people do not experience mystical feelings. That is okay, but they should not condemn people who do.

 

I think that for me, that question will never be answered. And I can never again be the sheep that I was, for once a mind is expanded, it is impossible to shrink it back down to a narrow point of view again.

 

You're right. You said you've been reading Jung. I remember a story from Jung (I think) where a person took drugs to expand consciousness and then, to his dismay, found he could not shrink his mind back again. I wouldn't want to. I would rather find a way to live with what I know.

 

I don't buy Jung's theory about the collective unconcious. I cannot see how it fits into reality. I know he did see a place for it but I don't. And I have to live with reality as I perceive it.