The Patriotic Case For Israel

[♦ nivek ♦]

h**p://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=27671

 

Don't want a trackback to here from there..

 

If so inclined cut'n paste, read why we in the Occidental world are so mired in the ME bullshit.

 

I read this article in its entirety and all but shit myself blind with the stupidity and base bullshit of its foundations.

 

Am somewhat an RKI of history, especially that of the American Founding and prior.. This article is, umm.. well, go read.

 

In amazed Ohshitism,

 

kFL

[neverclear5]

I'm not hostile to america in any way but "america has a history of standing up for the little guy"?!?!?!?!?!?!?

huh? since when. From what I've seen, america's foreign policy has no more of this heroism than any other country. I don't want to bring up late entry into world wars as I guess this statement is based on more modern things, but which ones I fail to see. Are we talking stuff like korea or vietnam here? Most of these "little guy"s were fairly irrelevent in what was really the basic US vs USSR conflict being faught in neithers country.

Again, every nations foreign policy is primarily in its own interest so I'm not judgeing right now, but the veiw of these conflicts as "sticking up for the little guy" is a seriously rose tinted glasses, feeding into rose tinted eyes, providing information to a brain colourblind to all but rose, view of america's past actions.

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

VERY rosetinted glasses. U.S. history is more about economic imperialism than anything else. From the moment Commodore Perry sailed into the Japanese harbor to today, it is about eploitation of smaller countries' resources and keeping the competition for American products in check. We are a corporate country, proffit decides policy.

[Lightbearer]

The reason we should stick up for Israel is because, for one thing, it's the right thing to do. The author of that article is having a problem discerning lies from reality when it comes to Judeo-Christianian influence on the founding of this country. They always seem to forget America was fighting against religious tyrants.

 

Another thing is it's in our treaties (which hold the same power as the Constitution) that we are going to protect Israel. It's not for some mystical bullshit that we should stand by Israel, it's because it's best for our own self-interest to do so. Israel is the only country in the region not bent on destroying the West and funding organizations who do it. Israel is the only nation in the region that cares about freedom, indepence and Western values. Israel is the only country not rule by mystic mullahs bent on calling their people to Jihad; it's one of the only secular countries in the region. All of Israel's war's have been in self-denfensive and yet the West still screws them over by appeasing their enemies (even our own enemies).

 

Stand by Israel because it's rational and moral to do so, not because of your afraid of what a non-existent deity will do to you if you dont.

 

 

 

I'm not hostile to america in any way but "america has a history of standing up for the little guy"?!?!?!?!?!?!?

huh? since when. From what I've seen, america's foreign policy has no more of this heroism than any other country. I don't want to bring up late entry into world wars as I guess this statement is based on more modern things, but which ones I fail to see. Are we talking stuff like korea or vietnam here? Most of these "little guy"s were fairly irrelevent in what was really the basic US vs USSR conflict being faught in neithers country.

Again, every nations foreign policy is primarily in its own interest so I'm not judgeing right now, but the veiw of these conflicts as "sticking up for the little guy" is a seriously rose tinted glasses, feeding into rose tinted eyes, providing information to a brain colourblind to all but rose, view of america's past actions.

 

 

Is their anything wrong with foreign policies being in our self-interest? I don't know about standing up for the little guy but America's history has alot of instances of standing up too the evil in the world. That's how it was founded and WWII proved to be a huge example of this.

 

US had it's fuck-ups no doubt. Especially in handling the Cold War -- but doesn't mean that standing up against the spread of communism was the wrong thing to do.

 

VERY rosetinted glasses. U.S. history is more about economic imperialism than anything else. From the moment Commodore Perry sailed into the Japanese harbor to today, it is about eploitation of smaller countries' resources and keeping the competition for American products in check. We are a corporate country, proffit decides policy.

 

Economic imperialism? Care to elaborate? Keep in mind that words actually have meanings. What's wrong with "exploitating" smaller countries resources? That only made those countries better off. If foreign policy was to help people make a profit we would have 100% free trade, no tariffs, taxes, etc. America's failed to do that. Also over the past 50 years our foreign policy has been geared at screwing ourselves over more then anything.

 

Don't believe me? Look at Iraq.

[HuaiDan]

Israel is the only nation in the region that cares about freedom, indepence and Western values.

 

Who says western values are the best values? And who says freedom and independence are the end result of western ideology? Freedom and independence for the top 10%, maybe. Depending on your perspective, a goat herder in Pakistan has more freedom than a data entry clerk slave working for minimum wage in the US.

 

I'm not west-bashing here, but liberty and freedom as slogans are not liberty and freedom actualized. Just something to consider.

[HuaiDan]

Just read the article. Rarely do I have the opportunity to see such a contrived collection of lies, misinformation and propaganda. Shit like this should be nipped at the bud before it spreads dangerously like a cancer.

 

Actually I take that back. I think the only people who would buy such horseshit are the ones who are sold on these kinds of ideas to begin with.

[Lightbearer]

Israel is the only nation in the region that cares about freedom, indepence and Western values.

 

Who says western values are the best values? And who says freedom and independence are the end result of western ideology? Freedom and independence for the top 10%, maybe. Depending on your perspective, a goat herder in Pakistan has more freedom than a data entry clerk slave working for minimum wage in the US.

 

I'm not west-bashing here, but liberty and freedom as slogans are not liberty and freedom actualized. Just something to consider.

 

 

Maybe because Western countries actually achieved high standards-of-living and prosperity without oppressing and destroying their own people? History is the proof of success you need for Western values -- values birthed from the Renaissance of ancient Greek though and the Age of Reason and Enlightment periods that followed (and gave birth to this country). I say that to make the dinstinction between Western classical liberal values and the Judeo-Christianian value system that followed suit and tried to take credit for the success of the former.

 

Not for the top 10%, freedom for everyone. Because when you talk about freedom you have to ask "freedom from what" so in this case, in my case, I mean from the intiation of the use of force.

 

The clerk who enters data is free to do get the best job their abilities will allow them and in the case of most Western countries, not be forced out of it by the government. The man may be free to practice whatever religion or lack thereof that he wants without the government stopping him. The person can enjoy the material products that his "slave" wage can bring him, without the government stopping him.

 

The sheep herder on the other hand may be killed for practicing a different religion, for attempting to make a better living for himself or speaking up against the regime in power. I wouldn't call that freedom unless you have a pretty perverse view of things.

[HuaiDan]

Western countries have a long and rich history of not only oppressing and destroying not only their own people, but peoples of other nations and cultures as well: slavery in the United States, genocide in Germany and the Balkans and of the native Americans, the industrial revolution was a period of brutal oppression in Europe, the sun never set on British oppression and destruction of indigenous peoples, to name but a few examples. In the natural cycle of the rise and fall of empires and nation, all have had their ages of enlightenment and reason, and their ages of darkness. Many civilizations, only a portion of which are western, have had their beautiful humanistic values laid down by their philosophers, and each has had their failures and successes in putting those values into practice.

I wonder what you mean by freedom from the initiation of use of force when that great paragon of western virtues, the United States, has constantly and unmitigatedly initiated the use of force globally for at least the past 60 years. Only the top 10% seem immune to the ultimate consequences of that use of force.

Sure, opportunity for a better job are available to a minimum wage earner, but only if they jump through very specific hoops, hoops that are often unreachable because of race, background, religious orientation, or financial status. Is this really freedom? Even if the government plays no part in denying him his freedom, free enterprise certainly will.

The goatherder might live a simple happy life without ever seeing a government official, or he might be shot dead by the local militia for thrills. By contrast in a western country one might be shot dead for the shoes he's wearing. Where's the net gain? The goatherder is free to interact with his environment any way he pleases, as long as he produces enough goat to keep himself and his family fed, as his father and his fathers before him had for centuries. A westerner, on the other hand, spends his days slaving away in a job he doesn't want, spending money he doesn't have, buying crap he doesn't need (credit to Tyler Durden).

So we have cars, superhighways, TVs and cell phones. So now we can spend 4 hours a day commuting to and from work, come home and get fat watching endless product promotions, and become increasingly isolated family and friends we need contact with to keep us healthy.

 

Just curious, LB, have you ever left the US in particular, and western culture in general, for an extended period of time? Don't knock it until you try it.

[Vigile]

Depending on your perspective, a goat herder in Pakistan has more freedom than a data entry clerk slave working for minimum wage in the US.

 

I'm not west-bashing here, but liberty and freedom as slogans are not liberty and freedom actualized. Just something to consider.

 

 

Reminds me of an old tennis partner of mine who happened to be Iranian. He used to go on holy rants about how little freedom he had in the US compared to Iran. He was angered by the fact that everything was legislated, right down to leash laws in the park.

 

Now having lived in quite a few different places I can see his point. America has created the "perfect" society by regulating everything right down to your toothbrush and yes things are a bit "messier" in places like here in India, but life is also a lot more carefree.

 

It all goes back to Rousseau's Freedom vs. Liberty debate. America has perhaps moved close to an imbalance where liberty is suffering at the expense of making society free from crime, danger, etc.

[Vigile]

Good response HuiDan. LB has difficulties with real history. He likes the history that his buddies over at the Ayn Rand foundation paint for him better.