Garnet Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 oladotun, What you are saying is very similar to what many of us exians have experienced. It can be very painful to go through this kind of thinking/questioning/learning process. Perhaps it would be helpful for you to read some of the threads in the Testimonies of Former Christians section. You may well find that you are not alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 I guess you can say that I am walking in that direction, but am too afraid to do so because of all the fears that have been planted in me about Hell and burning for eternity. What if we are wrong? Hi oladotun, Nothing personal in my replies to you. I hope you know that. I can absolutely empathize with your fears here. It took me years to overcome them. These fears have been planted into your psychi by well meaning people from the time you were too young to rationalize them so they feel very valid. Nevertheless, they are irrational. Why do you fear the Christian hell and not the Muslim hell? The other hells from other major and minor religions? How do you know that you have finally found the correct version of Christianity that is going to save you? There are literally 1000s of versions. What makes you think you got it right? What about all those who get it wrong? If god is so loving and so full of grace would he really sentence the majority of humanity who ever breathed air on this planet to an infinite torture chamber for finite crimes? Would you, as a reasonable person, if you had the power at your disposal, sentence anyone to a place as awful as hell for even 1 Million years, much less an eternity? Wouldn't that be cruel and unusual punishment? Are you then better than god? Have you ever considered how vast this universe is? You realize that we aren't even close to being the center of this unfathomably vast universe. Could it not be possible that there is intelligent life on at least some other planets? Let me put it another way, the Hubble deep space picture gathered in a faction of the number of suns that exist in all the galaxies of the universe and calculated that there are at least as many suns as there are pieces of sand on all the beaches on earth. Could there not be at least one other, two other, 1 million other solar systems like ours that have life sustaining planets? Did Jesus go and die on each one for the sins of their intelligent life forms? Just a few questions to ponder. As for me, the idea of hell is now so obviously a way to control the masses and keep them from asking questions; it is so obviously over the top, that the concept just doesn't bother me anymore. Biblegod is so illogical, why should I worry about his threats. For example, biblegod is omnipresent, yet he's not in hell. Huh? Biblegod is omnicient, so it means that he knew I would be sentenced to hell before I was created. Would you bear a child if you forknew that that child would spend an eternity suffering? Biblegod is omnipotent, yet he can't find a better way to save all of humanity. Biblegod created this ugly system where he tells you love me or burn much in the way a demented extortionist would; and this very same guy could have created a system to work anyway he wanted. It's not as if his hands are/were tied. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 Oladotun, You're getting a lot of good responses here. Consider them the next time Xianity fails you, or when you have trouble salvaging anything comforting from the Babble and are instead confronted with legalism and gloom. It all is pointing to something - you need to drop the deathcult. Like Amethyst said, respect needs to be earned. Just because a religion exists, doesn't mean that it automatically deserves respect, or that what it posits is true. You are afraid of Hell because some cult told you it exists - nothing more. You know there is no other reason to believe it exists. I myself fell into that trap for a bit, here and there; when I was young and taught about the vengeful god in the Babble, naturally I believed it, because I didn't know better. And until that belief was properly challenged, I held onto it into adulthood. All these are are ideas that need to be challenged. As you've found by reading Harris and Dawkins, a lilttle challenging of them is all they need to disintergrate. Keep it up - if the Xian terror-myths you were taught can't withstand a little inquiry before they crumble, that too is telling you something. Like Dave and Han and Vigile have said, reality is magical enough, and we are in need of no savior. No grace, no favors from "on high." The facts are, we were born fine to begin with, and sure don't need a second birth. You can do without a cult that preaches human worthlessness in the eyes of a god. That very idea is repulsive, and to accept it, to accept Jebus and the Babble, is to hate your own species. Consider that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 Oladotun I honestly believe that the best "pattern of thinking" for someone to leave Christianity is Socratic/Platonic theology. You can keep your belief in a supernatural reality and a moral structure to the universe -- you can believe in God. But it offers the perfect antitote to Christian theology. If you were anxious about retribution, Socratic/Platonic theology can best help you to manage that. If you are conditioned to "rely on external texts and authority" -- Socratic/Platonic theology can provide you with that. This pattern of thinking can ease you into atheism if that is the direction you wish to go. The central feature of this way of thinking about God? Divine punishment -- his "wrath," "vengeance," whatever you want to call it -- is an expression of God's love and should be invited rather than avoided if you wish to be reformed and thereby united to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro-bear Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 Every time I try and salvage some hope out of the Bible, I get trapped in the legalistic and harsh teachings of doom gloom and judgment.... oladotun It helps if you realize that it the accumulated wisdom and prejudices of men several thousand years ago and not the revealed word of God. Good luck to you on your quest for knowledge and peace. -Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piprus Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 Olatotun: Do this, or else...I am confused.....Every time I try and salvage some hope out of the Bible, I get trapped in the legalistic and harsh teachings of doom gloom and judgment.... Thank you for replying to the posts in response to your OP, oladotun...You're revealing much of yourself, and you're showing trust. I don't believe anyone here wants to steer you wrong. First, I believe that this whole idea of "doom and judgement" was inserted deliberately as a threat by early church leaders as a means of control. It isn't applicable to you. There is no evidence that hell or divine judgement of any person exists. Whatever spiritual feelings you have can be summed up in a very simple directive: Do all the good you can, and strive to do no evil. A restatement, if you will, of the ancient "golden rule" (that did not originate with the story of jesus). Treat others as you would like to be treated. It is one of the most ancient of maxims, and one of the first bits of wisdom ever to be recorded, centuries before the christian era. Second, treat the bible as a piece of literature. It is a secular piece of work, no more the word of any god than of Donald Duck. It's full of fables, folk-tales, poetry, outright fiction, and ancient wisdom literature. Use it as a resource if you want, but don't think of it as divinely inspired. Third, value your life for itself. You exist, you have consciousness of your reality, so make the most of it. (See no. 1 above). After this, we cannot know if there is anything beyond, so it becomes a pointless question. Your life is right now. And please...think of ending it on your own as off the table. Although I'm a believer that one has the right to take one's own life, I believe even more strongly that that alternative is almost always the wrong choice. Instead of asking "What's the best way out of this struggle?", the better question is "What can I change about my life or my thinking, right now?" I believe you can find personal peace and a positive view of your life. We have, and we have done so without any belief in christianity. Whether that is accomplished in an atheist or a reformulated theist view will be up to you. If you decide to chuck christianity, then you'll certainly have a place here. Best wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oladotun Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 ....value your life for itself. You exist, you have consciousness of your reality, so make the most of it. (See no. 1 above). After this, we cannot know if there is anything beyond, so it becomes a pointless question. Your life is right now. And please...think of ending it on your own as off the table. Although I'm a believer that one has the right to take one's own life, I believe even more strongly that that alternative is almost always the wrong choice. Instead of asking "What's the best way out of this struggle?", the better question is "What can I change about my life or my thinking, right now?" I believe you can find personal peace and a positive view of your life. We have, and we have done so without any belief in christianity. Whether that is accomplished in an atheist or a reformulated theist view will be up to you. If you decide to chuck christianity, then you'll certainly have a place here. Best wishes. Thanks Piprus. I am really grateful for all the responses that I have gotten to my questions on this sight. When I have tried getting answers to these questions from the 'church' I am always given the runaround, the same trite and simplistic answers (like the oftebn quoted verse in romans 8:28, "God works all things for the good") or given the impression that to question God is to be a heretic or rebellious person. I am becoming more and more comfortable being a freethinker, and I realize that fear is used by religion as a means of control - the best example I can think of is in regard to tithig (or giving 10% of ones income to the church). I remember one guy telling me that he was too scared to stop tithing because he felt that if he did his god would stop blessing him financially and he could possibly even lose his job and sources of income. And yet, this god that he talks about is supposed to be a god of love.. Complete hogwash. Christians, don't like to admit it but there are countless contradictions in the Bible - and even those who claim that they keep the rule sin it are deceiving themselves. And then, like it has been said in this thread, which denomination has the corner on which version of "Christianity" is the truth. I read somewhere that there are over 2,000 Christian denominations in the US alone, so who is right? And if one is right and the others are wrong, does that mean that 1,999 other denominations are filled with people who are hell-bound? And yet, they all claim to worshop the same god and the same Jesus? Complete hogwash I say.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 .... Complete hogwash I say.... How has coming to that conclusion changed your life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oladotun Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 .... Complete hogwash I say.... How has coming to that conclusion changed your life? It is liberating....Exept when some "born again" nut tries to re-convincve me that "losing my faith" is essentially falling from grace and apostasy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 How has coming to that conclusion changed your life? It is liberating....Exept when some "born again" nut tries to re-convincve me that "losing my faith" is essentially falling from grace and apostasy I had a feeling you'd say that. I've heard many say, after deconverting, that they feel liberated or that a great weight has been lifted off of their shoulders. Some even go on to say that one great weight has been lifted but replaced with another one; personal responsibility. A weight just as heavy, but easier to carry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbobrob Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 To misquote King Edward in Braveheart: The problem with Christianity is that is is full of Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyb Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 oladotun, Have you ever heard of cognitive dissonance? If not, do some research. You may well find that is what you are experiencing now and have been for years. I was the poster child for cognitive dissonace when I was a believer. I meant to say that if he (God) is so loving, why is he simultaneously so cruel..These two concepts are not compatible and all the theological explanations just don't make any sense That's because it's not true. Eternal hell + all loving god= no sense. "By grace we are saved". "Faith without works is dead". God hardening Pharaoh's heart, and then murdering a bunch of Egyptian kids because Pharaoh had a hard heart. The God who condoned slavery. The God who ordered genocides. The God who created sexism. But he's all loving. Become a slave to his (imaginary) zombie son who he killed to appease his own wrath, or your ass is toast, because he loves you so much. I can't believe I ever used to believe that crap. But I did. It's just superstitious nonsense, though. Seriously. Just like all the other religions. Ain't nothin' special about Christianity. It's very "real" to you when you believe it, just like everyone else's religion is very "real" to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Oladotan, I am impressed by your honesty. I respect this level of honesty and seeking any day. Just in case it means anything to you, I've been on these forums a while and I see people on this thread have been extra gentle and helpful as they see that you are a sincere seeker. Don't give up the struggle; it's worth it in the end, if you persevere till you find what is right for you. Or right for this present time. Most of us grow as we live and learn. Right now you are feeling really mixed up and confused. That's okay. I think most of us came through similar times. As someone suggested, reading testimonies of former Christians might help you feel less lonely. All the best as you continue your search, Odalotan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 When I have tried getting answers to these questions from the 'church' I am always given the runaround, the same trite and simplistic answers (like the oftebn quoted verse in romans 8:28, "God works all things for the good") ... Oh, do I love that verse! Here's an interesting view on "allthings for the good", at what point would someone be able to make a judgment that a series of events led to a good thing? It's like saying, all investments give profit. They actually do, but only if you get in at the right time and get out at the right time. If A loses his job, it's a bad thing. But if he lost it because he was hurting people at his job, then it was a good thing. But if person A, because of losing his job, stayed home and harassed his wife and kids, then it was a bad thing. But if harassing led to that one of the kids grew up and became a leader for some organization to stop child abuse, well, maybe it was a good thing after all. Now this kid that grew up, he became a bit over zealous and started to go on a killing spree, oh, then this chain of events led to a bad thing. But if all the people he killed all were really bad people, then maybe it was a good thing? Now if... and so on... At what point is all these events leading to a "good ending"? I remember one guy telling me that he was too scared to stop tithing because he felt that if he did his god would stop blessing him financially and he could possibly even lose his job and sources of income. I tried that route and lost a lot of money. No miracles helped my situation. I'm back financially today, but that was after I stopped thinking God would help me. The Christian idea of finances are very irresponsible towards their families. ...And then, like it has been said in this thread, which denomination has the corner on which version of "Christianity" is the truth. I read somewhere that there are over 2,000 Christian denominations in the US alone, so who is right? And if one is right and the others are wrong, does that mean that 1,999 other denominations are filled with people who are hell-bound? And yet, they all claim to worshop the same god and the same Jesus? Complete hogwash I say.... And also think about how a god that "is in control" can let something like that happen. How can a supposed god let so much confusion exist? Supposedly Jesus said that the unity amongst the believers would be the proof they were of god. So Christianity has failed it's own lithmus test. They are not from god according to their own Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Oladotan, I just want to warn you that you may start to experience mild to extreme anger twords the church for brainwashing you and filling your head with lies. This is natural, but it was a difficult stage (at least for me) to get over. Especially when you read history and learn how much suffering and damage this cult has caused for 2000 years. I had no idea that this anger was natural untill I found this site, ironicly right at the end of my anger phase. My sister shed the religion with absoultly no anger or ill feelings for the church, so I thought that I was just an angry person, again, blaming myself in good ol' xtian fashion. Just be careful when a believer does approach you, that you keep cool, calm, and collected and do not let the anger you may have for the church vent onto this one person. I did this several times years ago and it basicly proves the theists idea that Atheists are angry at god. Your best bet in dealing with a fundie is to know history and the bible and the bible's history. The average fundie will know very little about these things, and you will then have the upper hand. Welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oladotun Posted April 10, 2007 Author Share Posted April 10, 2007 Oladotan, I just want to warn you that you may start to experience mild to extreme anger twords the church for brainwashing you and filling your head with lies. This is natural, but it was a difficult stage (at least for me) to get over. Especially when you read history and learn how much suffering and damage this cult has caused for 2000 years. I had no idea that this anger was natural untill I found this site, ironicly right at the end of my anger phase. My sister shed the religion with absoultly no anger or ill feelings for the church, so I thought that I was just an angry person, again, blaming myself in good ol' xtian fashion. Just be careful when a believer does approach you, that you keep cool, calm, and collected and do not let the anger you may have for the church vent onto this one person. I did this several times years ago and it basicly proves the theists idea that Atheists are angry at god. Your best bet in dealing with a fundie is to know history and the bible and the bible's history. The average fundie will know very little about these things, and you will then have the upper hand. Welcome. I know exactly what you are talking about, because I feel the rage building up almost everytime I speak to a Christian who is so sure that they have the Biblical answer to everything. That is what pisses me off most about Christians - expecially the fundamentalists - they have an answer to everything. There is a Bible passage somewhere that they can pluck out for a simplistic answer to any of life's problems. Having bad luck? Well, it must be because you sinned..Not prospering? Well, have you paid your tithes lately? Things not going well in your relationships?Well, you must not be applying "Biblical" principles for success. When I was a youngster, about 7 and 8 years old, I prayed fervently to God to help my mother out of her desperately legalistic situation, which was only compounded by a terrible marriage and a severe battle with depression. I thought to myself, "well, they say God loves the little children, all the children of the world, so he must be paying attention to my prayers." Well, it did not work, my mother's situation only got worse and she ended up killing herself. And there was no shortage of "Biblical answers" for what happened to her. I ended up thinking that my mother's death was not only an indictment on me as a person but our entire family (maybe we were cursed or something and God was paying us back for some generational sin). Some Christians implied that she had forsaken her faith, that's why she ended up that way. Others said that suicide was an unforgivable sin that put the person who does it in Hell, so they hoped she found some peace. And yet, I found myself trying to appease this "loving God" who would not even listen to the prayer of a 7 year old boy and would have the nerve to send a suffering person to hell when she was looking for a way out of her misery? This is what fear will do to you, drive you towards the very thing or person that is abusing you (much like women who are abused by men fear leaving the abuser). I have to say that for the bulk of my "Christian" life, there has been a quiet rage seeping underneath the surface such that now when I hear any of these TV ministers with their cheap and simplistic answers to life's problems, I sometimes literally wish I could scold them personally for the nonsense that they are spewing and the bondage that they are helping to create in people's minds.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oladotun Posted April 10, 2007 Author Share Posted April 10, 2007 When I have tried getting answers to these questions from the 'church' I am always given the runaround, the same trite and simplistic answers (like the oftebn quoted verse in romans 8:28, "God works all things for the good") ... Oh, do I love that verse! Here's an interesting view on "allthings for the good", at what point would someone be able to make a judgment that a series of events led to a good thing? It's like saying, all investments give profit. They actually do, but only if you get in at the right time and get out at the right time. If A loses his job, it's a bad thing. But if he lost it because he was hurting people at his job, then it was a good thing. But if person A, because of losing his job, stayed home and harassed his wife and kids, then it was a bad thing. But if harassing led to that one of the kids grew up and became a leader for some organization to stop child abuse, well, maybe it was a good thing after all. Now this kid that grew up, he became a bit over zealous and started to go on a killing spree, oh, then this chain of events led to a bad thing. But if all the people he killed all were really bad people, then maybe it was a good thing? Now if... and so on... At what point is all these events leading to a "good ending"? I know exactly what you mean. Great analogy. It is like you are supposed to check your brain at the door when you are a Christian because you are accepting everything by "faith". But Religion (and Christianity is not exempt from this) has always been used to back a variety of agendas, some of them not too noble. You mean to tell me that it took almost 200 years of resistance, a Civil war (in which both sides felt they were right and prayed to the same "God"), a Jim Crow era, a Civil Rights movement and untold deaths and sacrifices for Christians to finally realize that "Oh, my bad, the Bible really does not condone discrimination against blacks or others, we made a mistake, please forgive us." Hogwash. And that is just one of many examples that I could site. For years, I have prayed desperately to "God" to cure me of the depression that has plagued me since I was little. I have read conteless "Christian books" on the subject, gone to numerous Christian seminars, healing services, I have fasted, paid tithes, literally memorized several Scriptural verses to do with healing. And what has been the result? More frustration and a quiet but sure rage underneath the surface. Then one day I was thinking to myself, "If something was wrong with my car, would I pray over it, or take it to the mechanic? Duh, mechanic of course." Now I am beginning to realize that there is a medical reason for the depression (which has ironically only been excacerbated by these religious beliefs based on fear) which is possibly hereditary. I wonder how many Christians sit in church pews every week with the kind of quiet rage that I have sat with for years without even considering their thoughts for fear of being labelled a heretic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oladotun Posted April 10, 2007 Author Share Posted April 10, 2007 When I have tried getting answers to these questions from the 'church' I am always given the runaround, the same trite and simplistic answers (like the oftebn quoted verse in romans 8:28, "God works all things for the good") ... Oh, do I love that verse! Here's an interesting view on "allthings for the good", at what point would someone be able to make a judgment that a series of events led to a good thing? It's like saying, all investments give profit. They actually do, but only if you get in at the right time and get out at the right time. If A loses his job, it's a bad thing. But if he lost it because he was hurting people at his job, then it was a good thing. But if person A, because of losing his job, stayed home and harassed his wife and kids, then it was a bad thing. But if harassing led to that one of the kids grew up and became a leader for some organization to stop child abuse, well, maybe it was a good thing after all. Now this kid that grew up, he became a bit over zealous and started to go on a killing spree, oh, then this chain of events led to a bad thing. But if all the people he killed all were really bad people, then maybe it was a good thing? Now if... and so on... At what point is all these events leading to a "good ending"? I know exactly what you mean. Great analogy. It is like you are supposed to check your brain at the door when you are a Christian because you are accepting everything by "faith". But Religion (and Christianity is not exempt from this) has always been used to back a variety of agendas, some of them not too noble. You mean to tell me that it took almost 200 years of resistance, a Civil war (in which both sides felt they were right and prayed to the same "God"), a Jim Crow era, a Civil Rights movement and untold deaths and sacrifices for Christians to finally realize that "Oh, my bad, the Bible really does not condone discrimination against blacks or others, we made a mistake, please forgive us." Hogwash. And that is just one of many examples that I could site. For years, I have prayed desperately to "God" to cure me of the depression that has plagued me since I was little. I have read conteless "Christian books" on the subject, gone to numerous Christian seminars, healing services, I have fasted, paid tithes, literally memorized several Scriptural verses to do with healing. And what has been the result? More frustration and a quiet but sure rage underneath the surface. Then one day I was thinking to myself, "If something was wrong with my car, would I pray over it, or take it to the mechanic? Duh, mechanic of course." Now I am beginning to realize that there is a medical reason for the depression (which has ironically only been excacerbated by these religious beliefs based on fear) which is possibly hereditary. I wonder how many Christians sit in church pews every week with the kind of quiet rage that I have sat with for years without even considering their thoughts for fear of being labelled a heretic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garnet Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 I wonder how many Christians sit in church pews every week with the kind of quiet rage that I have sat with for years without even considering their thoughts for fear of being labelled a heretic? Wow. This is something I have not thought about before and to be honest, it scares me spitless. I know that my own rage bubbling to the surface was a shock. My sojourn as a Christian only lasted 5 years...and that was over around 20 years ago now. Yet I find that my anger has not dimished...in fact...it's increased. But that may be due to some other circumstances with which I don't want to de-rail this thread. Anyway, I suspect that there are quite a number of people in church whose anger is simmering just beneath the surface. How is your depression now, oladotun? I'm prone to minor bouts of it myself; I can't imagine how difficult it must be for you as what you describe is a long cry from the little things I go through. How do you deal with it? What do you do to feel better? Feel free to tell me to shut the hell up if those questions are too personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oladotun Posted April 11, 2007 Author Share Posted April 11, 2007 Just look at our president who brags about being Christian, but really doesn't follow any of the more pro-human aspects of it. You are right. I am really bothered by the politicization of Religion in this country, where it is implied that if you are a Republican, you are on "God's side", because those "crazy liberals" on the left are all heathens and are taking the country to hell in a hand-basket (so they think). And even those on the right who claim so fervently to "follow the teachings of the Bible" cherry-pick and choose those aspects that they deem to be so worthy: abortion, homosexuality, and stem cell research (none of which was a primary focus on the teachings of Jesus in the new testament). As long as you are against abortion, pro-war, against homosexuality and do not favor stem cell research, you are assumed to be on the path of "righteousness". What about poverty, giving peace a chance, the whole theory of pre-eminence and what it does in its assumptions (like the war we are in now that started under false pretense), what about those languishing in prison, what about the "least of these" who need love and attention? It is stuff like this that makes me dissilusioned with Christianity, everyone claims to speak for God, when no one wants to really be honest about reality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oladotun Posted April 11, 2007 Author Share Posted April 11, 2007 [How is your depression now, oladotun? I'm prone to minor bouts of it myself; I can't imagine how difficult it must be for you as what you describe is a long cry from the little things I go through. How do you deal with it? What do you do to feel better? Feel free to tell me to shut the hell up if those questions are too personal. I deal with the depression the best way I can, by hanging out with friends who enjoy similar interests, I tried therapy and medication, but that did not help much. I also do read a lot, which helps also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 It's just another classic example of Christians making their god into their image, not, as the Bible states, God making man in his image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garnet Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 [How is your depression now, oladotun? I'm prone to minor bouts of it myself; I can't imagine how difficult it must be for you as what you describe is a long cry from the little things I go through. How do you deal with it? What do you do to feel better? Feel free to tell me to shut the hell up if those questions are too personal. I deal with the depression the best way I can, by hanging out with friends who enjoy similar interests, I tried therapy and medication, but that did not help much. I also do read a lot, which helps also. Reading is my solace. Books have gotten me through many a lonely night and many a troubled time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest danny2bfree Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 Please do not quote the "Whole Post" just above your response. Cut what you need, respond to that, do not take up valuable board space repeating the OP. Thnx kFL Here lies the main problem with Christianity as it is generally practiced today. And mind you, before some religious nut tries to give me another sermon about what I am not doing right, trying to "get it right" has almost led me to the brink of taking my own life (just like my mother did when I was 9 years old). Because of my issues with "Christianity" I om/]http://graceofgod1971.blogspot.com/[/url] You've told it exactly like it is. According to the Gospels Jesus said 'by their fruits you shall know them' or something like that Try gravitating towards those who really do live in a good and loving way towards those around them. Then listen closely to whatever philosophy or theology they believe in. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. At the end of the day, how we live our lives (ie. treat others - I'm not talking rules here) is more important than what we believe in. In my experience it is people who live by rules who treat other people abominably and those who follow freedom and liberation who behave with love towards others. Doubter atated: "In my experience it is people who live by rules who treat other people abominably and those who follow freedom and liberation who behave with love towards others. " YOU COULD HAVE NOT SAID ANYTHING MORE TRUE! I HAVE FOUND WE HAVE MANY "PHARISEES" IN THE CHRISTIAN FAITH WHO DO JUST THAT "DOING THE RULES INSTEAD OF FAITH-FILLED GRACE" - - IT HURTS EVERYONE - NO MATTER WHAT THEY BELIEVE... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oladotun Posted September 19, 2007 Author Share Posted September 19, 2007 I am not sure your purpose in posting this here Oladuton, but this is a site of exchristians and I guess since your just ranting, I suppose, no harm. But I have to ask you, wouldn't this so called "Gospel of Grace" negate Christianity and the whole passion narrative anyway? Or is this God's grace (this liberal-christian-god construct that is) limited only to Christians and if so, then, so what of it? Can you define what exactly this "Gospel of Grace" actually is? Which verses do you cherry-pick from the NT or OT for your support? What are the central tennats of this doctrine? By which criteria can you prove that you are not the one that is not "perverting the gospel?" or "misrepresent(ing) Jesus?" I would like an objective list to discern if the liberal-christians or the conservative/fundamantalist-christians are in fact the TRUE christians. However, if your gist is that Jesus was a liberal more concerned with welfare than warfare then he's not a remarkable man by any means. There are plenty of people who have not been Christians that have stood for the same things. Human morality and ethics have far superceded this bronze age tome. While its laws or rules in the OT may have been adequate (however, not humane) for small groups of humans (tribes) it can not meet the demands of today's larger industrialized societies and scale of nation-states. Basically, I am saying that the Bible and Jesus and all this flap about the "Gospel of Grace" is irrelevant to today's concerns. You are correct in your assessments. Is it then not still possible to get some inspiration from Jesus without being religious, the same way you would get inspiration from a role model in your family without "worshipping them" so to speak. I could not agree more that Religion is posion in the worst sense of the word, because it kills while promosing "life", and that is why I am through with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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