Is Judeo-christian Violence The Same Thing As Islamic Violence?

[KenneyVTX]

All major faiths lie, it's called PR.

 

I thought it was called 'evangelism'

 

Evangelism is PR w/o the budget.

[pitchu]

Am I wrong in recalling that the great Arab contributions to civilization occurred over a thousand years ago? Have they just been busy tidying up around the house since then?

 

Oh! Almost forgot! They did invent the burqa.

[Amanda]

I do love the hideous condescension and faux disingenuous style of your posts, Amanda dear... It would seem that my late father had a point when he said there's "now't noisier than an empty head"...

Grandpa Harley, I've always liked your style. It's usually very informative and often entertaining. Fathers are great. My late father taught me to understand the importance and respect of the right of everyone being entitled to their own opinion.

 

After the Western sponsorship of the rise of Wahabist movements, the remains of the Ottoman Empire reverted to a darker age than there was in the 1400s. Engineered by Britain, France, Germany and US in the late 19th C, it was to allow the West to secure Arabian Oil. It's pretty well why the map of the Middle East is such a nighmare.

I was not familiar with this Ottoman Empire, so what little I've just read online, it seems this Ottoman Empire met its demise in Turkey when it changed from being dedicated Islamic to the transitioning of a secular orientation. Maybe that's why some people are so emphatic at ressurrecting Islam worldwide? Anyway, I was under the impression that Europe was considering adding Turkey to Europe... is that true?

 

As far as securing oil from the Arabs, it seems to me it has benfited the Arabs greatly. Doesn't look like anyone stole it from them, as far as I know. Why wasn't that a good deal for all involved?

 

There again, the British supported (to a degree, expanded), the Afghan Opium fields - It was to supply the UK and US navies during the Opium War in China... If the monster our ancestors created doesn't please, I'm afraid there is very little I, or anyone else of this earth, can do... but to try and pretend it's wholly Islam's fault is a combination of facile and ignorant. If the Eastern Church hadn't screwed up, Islam would have never existed... but that is a tale for another time...

I don't know what you're referencing here, as I thought Islam started about 600CE.

 

I think pure Islam is probably a decent religion. Most likely a few radicals have twisted, turned, and spun it all out of proportion to incite the rest of the ME to convert the world and have everyone live to their expectations. Hopefully a good aspect of it will become the predominant force of their movement, because if you don't like Christians... I hope you like Islam a lot better. According to statistics, it's growing the fastest, by leaps and bounds. See here. Proliferation will be easy for them, as long as everyone else just minds their own business, IMO.

 

Not exactly true. There are two major contributions that Arabia gave the world that without them our modern society couldn't exsist. They are non-religous: Algebra and Arabic Numerals. Just imagine trying to do long division using roman numerals.

 

Kenny VTX, okay, maybe I was mistaken. I thought I had read to the contrary somewhere else. I stand corrected. You and Grandpa Harley may very well be right on that one. Then again, I just saw Pitchu's post. Even if the algebraic techniques were produced by the Arabs 1000 years ago, I'm impressed. Heck, I had an extremely hard time with it when someone explained it to me, and explained it again, and again...

[Thurisaz]

Am I wrong in recalling that the great Arab contributions to civilization occurred over a thousand years ago? Have they just been busy tidying up around the house since then?

 

Oh! Almost forgot! They did invent the burqa.

 

Well, if memory serves, none here claimed that they still contribute much to society today. However, as was demonstrated above, it's not like "the Arabs" have always been a ragtag bunch of desert nomads and bloodthirsty fanatics either.

 

I'll leave it to the history buffs to judge the quality of it, but Mr Ken Humphreys of jesusneverexisted.com has several articles about the history of islam on his wonderful site which shed more light on the once-glorious past of that region of earth. Not that different from "the west" - they also were destroyed by morontheism running wild. Just a bit later, and by a different morontheism.

[Vigile]

I'm certainly not priviledged to all the information given to our government, yet I know that most of them, republicans and democrats, have stated at one time or another... Iraq was a significant threat to US security. Even Bill and Hillary have said this. Heck, the UN agreed that we had significant cause to check out their country for threats! Maybe the average foreign citizen is more informed than the UN and our government officials?

 

Amanda, you are sadly not keeping up with current events. While it was always obvious that Iraq had nothing to do with 911, some government officials lied to the public at one time claiming that there was a correlation. All those you mention above have since repealed their claims.

 

As for the UN, Powel presented them with what has now been proven to be false evidence. This evidence was very likely known to have been false even at the time it was presented.

 

So, once again, you were lied to. This is common public knowledge, not hidden theory.

 

And to answer your question about the average foreign citizens, yes, they do know more than what the US government officials are telling their citizens. Foreign citizens have the advantage of reading press that actually provides and objective approach to American governmental claims.

 

I don't think the first concern of our government is the current popularity contest. Sure, it's better to have friends than enemies, yet a very famous saying is that only a fool is loved by everyone.

 

Popularity? I mentioned US involvement in attrocities that include genocide and the support of totalitarian governments and you say they are not running a popularity contest. Are you so cold? Do you somehow justify the deaths at the hands of the US government in support of business interests as somehow a valid American value?

 

Which citizenship would I like to pursue? For practical reasons, any country that will give me a passport that lets me travel freely and that doesn't have big brother watching over my shoulder. My US passport only meets the former requirement.

[Vigile]

As far as securing oil from the Arabs, it seems to me it has benfited the Arabs greatly. Doesn't look like anyone stole it from them, as far as I know. Why wasn't that a good deal for all involved?

 

Oh, it was wonderful if you were a member of the Saudi royal family or a stock holder in BP, CVX, and XOM. Kinda sucked though if you were just the average sheepherder on the street who got caught up in the strife involved when the west stepped in to incorporate your oil.

 

Amanda, you should probably stick to arguing biblical semantics because you are coming across as quite naive here.

[HuaiDan]

Nope... nothing there recognised worldwide there...

 

And just as a sidenote, some mathematicians recently were very surprised about the patterns they found in the stained-glass windows of a centuries-old mosque (or some other building erected by muslims) somewhere in Asia if memory serves. The complex patterns those ancient mohamed cultists used in there had only recently been "discovered/invented" in the west, with the help of a significant amount of computing power.

 

Not exactly an earth-shattering thing, but it fits in Grandpa's list quite nicely, no?

 

 

It would be great if you could find some pictures for us....

[Grandpa Harley]

The Glass was shown on the BBC Website

 

as to Islamic contributions to civilisation at large, I didn't realise there was a shelf life on 'contribution' nor that the discussion would become a very Life of Brian 'What have the Romans ever done for us?' dialogue...

 

The fall of the Ottoman Empire was finalised by Turkey's decision to become secular, but there was a long term program of destabilisation by Western (Christian) Governments... thee again, the battle destabilised Austro-Hungarian Empire too, so the victory was Pyrrhic at best for Europe, since it's decline plunged us into two World Wars... Really the only country that REALLY benefited in the long term was the US, as the Middle East was partitioned, and even that has bitten ass when the Carter administration chose to make life hell for the Soviets in Afghanistan.

 

The history of Islam is strange, in that it seems to have started as high civilisation (the Islamics were invited to inauguration of the New Emperor of China in the 1300s, while European royalty were regarded as bare arsed, drunken barbarians.)

 

One of the major problems with the way in which history is taught is that it is implied that everything happened in its own pocket universe. It's actually a big jigsaw puzzle. something seldom mentioned was that there were Buddhist missionaries in Israel when Jesus was strutting his stuff, the silk road being what it was.

 

As to the main topic... there is a likelihood that Islam is an an Essene influenced off shoot, that migrated north following the AD70 Massacres, and that merged with Arab Monotheist philosophy. Blood onthe hands of the god of Abraham is nothing new... Christianity is a Greeked up version of Apocalyptic Judaism, Islam is a Moon Godded version of the same, and Judaism is really the cult of a Hittite war God promoted tot he sole creator of the universe... it's all interchangeable, since the relgions influence the politics...

[Thurisaz]

It would be great if you could find some pictures for us....

 

I'll try, but it's been some time since I read about it... don't know if I can dig that out again.

 

(EDIT)

 

Here it is. Article's in German, but it's the pic that count...

 

 

Those ancient patterns

[Grandpa Harley]

It would be great if you could find some pictures for us....

 

I'll try, but it's been some time since I read about it... don't know if I can dig that out again.

 

(EDIT)

 

Here it is. Article's in German, but it's the pic that count...

 

 

Those ancient patterns

 

The BBC reporting of same

[Amanda]

And to answer your question about the average foreign citizens, yes, they do know more than what the US government officials are telling their citizens. Foreign citizens have the advantage of reading press that actually provides and objective approach to American governmental claims.

Vigile Del Fuoco 1, I don't know if anyone operates without spin on any kind of information. However, what seems obvious to me is that concerning the war in Iraq, is that its people were elated at their leader's demise. What countries came to their defense? Kuait? Iran? Syria? Jordan? Saudi Arabia? Nope... only the terrorist.

 

I'll be the first one to say I want to avoid war. Heck, I don't want to send anyone's sons to die. I suppose history says there are things to stand for, even unto death. Do we all just let the terrorist have their way. In many ways, I think this is appropriate to the topic of this thread. Yes, I think Christians have done the same thing throughout history... maybe, till someone came up with separation of church and state? The movement there is trying to help restore an Iraqi government that can lead the country and take accountability for their actions, it seems to me.

 

Grandpa Harley, so to get back on the topic of this thread , maybe this fanatical Muslim movement isn't so terribly different than that of the Christian movement? Maybe history shows that's how the Christian movement got to be the predominant force in the world, and the Muslims are doing the same?

[Grandpa Harley]

Indeed

[Vigile]

However, what seems obvious to me is that concerning the war in Iraq, is that its people were elated at their leader's demise.

 

So? The group that benefits from Sadam's demise the most gets put on American television celebrating a bad man's death. What does that prove? It somehow justifies the US led invasion? What about the half million or more people that are now dead? Are they happy at his demise to?

 

Do we all just let the terrorist have their way. .

 

Once again, the war in Iraq had nothing to do with 911 or terror. You were lied to. This is public record, which you would know if you were paying attention.

[Gary Thompson]

Same shit, different arsehole.

 

I commend you for easily the greatest metaphor of religions ever, ever.

[Outback Jack]

For those of you advocating pacifism in the face of Muslim Terrorism, I’d like to remind you that that is exactly what the USA was practicing on the morning of 9-11. We weren’t dropping bombs on anyone at that time. Muhammad Atta and his buddies hated us because of 2 reasons..

1) The USA is the most powerful and prosperous country on the face of the planet.

2) Their imaginary friend (thru His church leaders) told them to hate us.

 

People around the world will hate us no matter what we do so long as we are strong, rich, and free.

 

You are obviously one of those Americans who have bought into the Bush regime's propaganda.

Vigile, you are obviously one of those people who have bought into the Bush-hater’s propaganda (Propaganda does work both ways, ya know.). Iraq was never blamed for 9-11 until AFTER March 2003 and that link was never uttered by Bush. The claim has only been made by Bush-haters who only claim Bush said it. (I could be wrong here, but I doubt anyone can find a news article dated BEFORE the invasion that quotes Bush saying that Iraq was responsible for 9-11).

 

The reason we’re in Iraq is because it was reasonable to assume that Saddam had WMD and, since he also hated the USA, would give them to terrorists. But possible WMDs in Iraq is not propaganda from Bush. It started in the previous “regime.” Please read…

 

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/199...ts/clinton.html

 

and

 

http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html

 

If Clinton could assume that Iraq would “threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons”, why shouldn’t Bush?

 

Especially note the second link. In it, Sen. Clinton makes note of the fact that Iraq was not involved with 9-11. That speech is dated October 2002. IOW, everyone knew before the invasion that there was no link between Iraq and 9-11, only post-invasion propaganda has changed public perception. Also note that “regime change” is a policy that was also started in 1998, well before that horrible Bush lied to all of us.

 

the war in Iraq had nothing to do with 911 …. You were lied to.

Just to beat a dead horse….NOBODY EVER SAID THAT IT DID! You were lied to.

 

If you still want to blame the USA for all of the world’s problems, I’d be willing to agree that the CIA f-ed up (or lied). Probably to make sure that their funding was kept at a maximum in the current environment. However, I’d also like to point out that it was the US administration of the late 1990s that decided that all intel could be gleaned thru satellites rather than HUMINT (Human Intelligence). Since we didn’t have anyone talking to the bad guys, we had no real idea of what they were doing. Only nice pictures of rooftops.

 

 

Amanda, love ya, babe! Keep up the fight for logic and common sense.

 

 

P.S. As you can tell, I’m new. Can someone please tell me how to get those nice quotes that cite the original poster? Also, when I link to another site, should I do it like I did or encode the link? I have a “test” thread in “Totally off topic”. Please respond with suggestions there. TIA.

[Vigile]

Amanda, love ya, babe! Keep up the fight for logic and common sense.

 

 

http://www.motherjones.com/bush_war_timeline/

 

http://www.impeachbush.tv/args/iraqlies.html

[Grandpa Harley]

For those of you advocating pacifism in the face of Muslim Terrorism, I’d like to remind you that that is exactly what the USA was practicing on the morning of 9-11. We weren’t dropping bombs on anyone at that time. Muhammad Atta and his buddies hated us because of 2 reasons..

1) The USA is the most powerful and prosperous country on the face of the planet.

2) Their imaginary friend (thru His church leaders) told them to hate us.

 

People around the world will hate us no matter what we do so long as we are strong, rich, and free.

 

You are obviously one of those Americans who have bought into the Bush regime's propaganda.

Vigile, you are obviously one of those people who have bought into the Bush-hater’s propaganda (Propaganda does work both ways, ya know.). Iraq was never blamed for 9-11 until AFTER March 2003 and that link was never uttered by Bush. The claim has only been made by Bush-haters who only claim Bush said it. (I could be wrong here, but I doubt anyone can find a news article dated BEFORE the invasion that quotes Bush saying that Iraq was responsible for 9-11).

 

The reason we’re in Iraq is because it was reasonable to assume that Saddam had WMD and, since he also hated the USA, would give them to terrorists. But possible WMDs in Iraq is not propaganda from Bush. It started in the previous “regime.” Please read…

 

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/199...ts/clinton.html

 

and

 

http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html

 

If Clinton could assume that Iraq would “threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons”, why shouldn’t Bush?

 

Especially note the second link. In it, Sen. Clinton makes note of the fact that Iraq was not involved with 9-11. That speech is dated October 2002. IOW, everyone knew before the invasion that there was no link between Iraq and 9-11, only post-invasion propaganda has changed public perception. Also note that “regime change” is a policy that was also started in 1998, well before that horrible Bush lied to all of us.

 

the war in Iraq had nothing to do with 911 …. You were lied to.

Just to beat a dead horse….NOBODY EVER SAID THAT IT DID! You were lied to.

 

If you still want to blame the USA for all of the world’s problems, I’d be willing to agree that the CIA f-ed up (or lied). Probably to make sure that their funding was kept at a maximum in the current environment. However, I’d also like to point out that it was the US administration of the late 1990s that decided that all intel could be gleaned thru satellites rather than HUMINT (Human Intelligence). Since we didn’t have anyone talking to the bad guys, we had no real idea of what they were doing. Only nice pictures of rooftops.

 

 

Amanda, love ya, babe! Keep up the fight for logic and common sense.

 

 

P.S. As you can tell, I’m new. Can someone please tell me how to get those nice quotes that cite the original poster? Also, when I link to another site, should I do it like I did or encode the link? I have a “test” thread in “Totally off topic”. Please respond with suggestions there. TIA.

Thing is, the US has been destabilising the region since Theodore Roosevelt's time... same with most of Europe. In the name of oily sand.

[Grandpa Harley]

Has anyone noticed that Religion discussions rapidly become political and vice versa...

[Thurisaz]

From my (German) point of view, the cult and politics seem to be so totally fucking intertwined in the US that it's an art form to to keep a discussion about one from spilling over into the other for more than 5 minutes.

[Grandpa Harley]

From my (German) point of view, the cult and politics seem to be so totally fucking intertwined in the US that it's an art form to to keep a discussion about one from spilling over into the other for more than 5 minutes.

It's why I call America the United Theocracy.

[Amanda]

Vigile Del Fuoco 1, you're certainly entitled to your own opinion. That's what people in this country fight for you to have. You do state you prefer your American passport for its ability to give you the freedom of mobility to travel from country to country. The US would also come to your aid in whatever way it could. However, I'm curious to know if you realize your anti-American statements only give ammunition to these terrorists?

 

I would hope that you would communicate your dissentions with your congressmen here, instead of the rest of the world, as these congressmen are the only ones who can really influence these changes you want. Hey, I know you can do whatever you like, and hope our discussion still reveals you still have my respect. We differ in opinions, that's all.

 

Outback Jack, welcome to these forums! I am really glad to see you come aboard!

 

In the name of oily sand.

Grandpa Harley, maybe some truth in that... I'll admit. However, it's a complicated mess effecting the whole world, who rely heavily on us as consumers. Perhaps Americans have been spoiled by lower gas prices than most countries. I think we are doing our best efforts to stop being the ignorant gluttons, in those regards, we've been in the past. There are no simple solutions or quick fixes, yet I can see a current determination to repair this crisis.

Has anyone noticed that Religion discussions rapidly become political and vice versa...

That's probably because we all agree that these fanatical Muslims are doing the same thing these fanatical Christians did to become the predominant belief system of the world. Now the Muslims are doing the same thing, so if they succeed, will this put us back into the dark ages we experienced under the fanaticism of "Christianity", or will it be worse?

[Vigile]

The US would also come to your aid in whatever way it could. However, I'm curious to know if you realize your anti-American statements only give ammunition to these terrorists?

 

You have got to be kidding. You sound exactly like the Bush admin here and the values you espouse are about as un American as it comes. Did you take civics in highschool? This is an unbelievable statement on a message board full of skeptics.

 

You do realize that it is a primary American value and right to dissent do you not?

 

I would argue that I am the patriot here since I'm arguing for a return to the Constitution and am a vocal supporter of free speech. I would also argue that you are the anti patriot as you paint my speech as somehow anti American.

 

Unbelievable.

 

And for the record, I would also bet good money that I have done more than you ever will or considered doing in working with and within my country's government for change. Certainly enough to know that letters to my congressmen are a bigger waste of time than arguing my views on this message board.

[Grandpa Harley]

TBH there is no real difference between a political belief and religious one. It has the same sort of blind devotion, the same investment of personal identity mindless application of dogma, and an inability to admit theres anything good out side the sphere of the political belief... even the similar type slogans...

 

Opinions can be changed, beliefs require either conversion or deprogramming.

[Vigile]

But Gramps, don't you think that perhaps there is a difference between "belief" and "value"?

 

A belief implies a certain degree of faith. A value is something that one esteems as worthy of support.

[Grandpa Harley]

But Gramps, don't you think that perhaps there is a difference between "belief" and "value"?

 

A belief implies a certain degree of faith. A value is something that one esteems as worthy of support.

 

No, I think you're trying to apply semantics to 'prove' a difference in impulse where there is none. A dispassionate reading of texts where people bring their politics out shows that they're nearly always polemic. The language of blind faith, not reasoned opinion. I see it even when I agree with what they're saying.