Oh Fuck Me.

[Guest Dan]

An old friend and I are debating Christianity on a forum. One of my atheists friends brings up how the church pastor on Easter claimed that there was more evidence for the ressurection of Christ than there is that George Washington was the first president of the US.

 

This gets this reply from my fundie friend when we ask him how a man of god could make such a obviously false claim.

 

Um... maybe he researched it? I'm not him so I don't know.

 

BTW George Washington was our first official president, there were a handful of others during the Revolutionary War.

 

to which I reply:

What research is even needed!?

 

On one side we have president Washington. This is documented within very recent history, and was documented at the time of his presidency. If anyone were to dispute this we would call them crazy. That is for a very good reason.

 

On the side of Christ we have the Bible. Even if we decide the Bible is a good source of history (which it's really not) it contains three differing accounts of the event, all which were written many decades after the so called event even happened. The small collection of secular writings discussing Christ mainly just mention Christians, who worship Christus. They say nothing supporting the idea of the ressurection. I believe one even says Christians are ridiculous to actually believe the ressurection.

 

Any miniscule amount of research, or even common sense would not lead you to the conclusion the Pastor Korver reached. I suspect that Pastor Korver knows exactly well that what he said was a lie. I also suspect he thinks it is a lie that is justified, since it could help lead "lost souls" into his sect of Christianity.

 

That is dishonest and immoral. Like I said before, if religion is really so obviously true there wouldn't be reasons to lie like that.

 

It's very upsetting that religion is allowed to make blanket claims based on nothing, and we are expected to respect these beliefs. If there is any attack on religion it is labeled as intolerance. I don't respect religious beliefs, because they are batshit crazy.

 

No Christian respects the beliefs in All-father Odin, or Mormons, or the Greek Pantheon. That is because we can all see these are all obviously false ideas. The only reason you support the belief of Christianity is because you were raised Christian and there's some supposed terrible consequence for not believing in god.

 

There is no good reason to have faith in nonsense. It does not improve life, nor does it get you into heaven.

 

Every single religious (and non-religious) person has the same feelings of awe and wonder that you get. It is a human emotion. After intense prayer it is expected to feel something "supernatural". I feel the same way after I meditate. Muslims feel the same way after their prayer. Hindus feel the same way after their ceremonies of worship. Connecting these highly religious feelings to religious dogma though is a massive leap in a completley illogical direction. The expierence of spirituality in no way proves the existance of a Judeo-Christian god. At best, it merley suggests there may be some spiritual aspect to life. That is something that could be debated, but I will not go into what I think about that here, as this post has already gone into a rather extreme tangent.

 

He retortts me with the brilliantly sarcastic reply. "Ok then."

 

This of course fuels me up even more, so I say something about how beeing so firm in your beliefs is bad, ask for reasons he believes, etc.

...there is no just or noble reason for staying in Christianity. If God is real, why would he send me to hell? I have tried my hardest to understand religion, and everything I see points to the idea that religion is a fabrication of humankind. I don't think any just god could send me to hell for trying my best to understand.

 

Dawkins related a story about the late Bertrand Russell that demonstrates my point.

Bertrand Russell was asked what he would say if he died and found himself confronted by God, demanding to know why Russell had not believed in him. 'Not enough evidence, God, not enough evidence,' was Russell's (I almost said immortal) reply.

 

Think about this. Is any just god going to send you to eternal hell simply for reaching the conclusion that he doesn't exist based the best of your research. I should think not, and if he does, than he is hardly a "just" god.

 

I used to be a "true" Christian. I knew I was correct. I knew God was real. God spoke to me. I spoke to God. I wanted to live my life to fully honor God. I understand the theology and reasoning of Christianity. I know exactly how hard it is to leave these beliefs behind. It took me several years. Not easy years, by any stretch of the imagination. It's something that will ultimatley leave you more fulfilled though, or at least, that is my expierence. For me, leaving my faith behind was an incredibly liberating expierence. Not an easy one, but one that was well worth it.

 

I'm sorry if my approach has been too confrontational for your tastes, but I don't see any other way to press the issue save through confrontation.

 

 

He replies with this pearl of wisdom:

I'm not making any comments on how God is just or whatever because I'd just be comparing him to the human standard of fair. To use a cheap cop-out (that I believe) God is too complex to be described by human standards.

 

I don't like to be called religious either, The Church has fallen far away from what Jesus really taught. I don't like to think this, but we have may have Pastors lying in our own church.

 

God, I am going to fucking die of frustration just trying to have this kid see any common sense whatsoever.

 

Maybe I'm being too confrontational??? If anyone has any idea of something I could use in this debate I'd really appreciate it. Then again, it seems rather hopeless when he refuses to even really engage in any sort of discourse or have any fucking ounce of common sense. Fucking hell.

 

[MrBungle]

I feel your pain. I've ran into a similar problem trying to explain the paradox that is created between predestination/prophecy/omnipotence and free will. These people come into the arguement with their mind already made up... they will not listen to you and will not really try to understand what you are saying. They already believe that the bible is infalable and that anything that says otherwise is a message from satan that cannot be trusted.

 

From my experience the closest thing that you can get to them seeing logic is when you back them into a corner and they are forced to change the subject, or they respond with some sort of be-littling knee jerk reaction comment... which usually makes no sense. This of course is a defense mechanism since if they were to take the dialogue any further they would be forced to admit the logical impossibility of their belief system.

[lothartx]

I've been there too. You can't reason someone out of something that reason didn't get them into.

 

On a side note, what you said to friend is very true, but message was probably perceived as an attack and insulting. You basically called him stupid for believing in Christianity. While this is true, it's not the way to get people to think. They get defensive and backed into the corner reaction mentality.

 

The only thing that may work is to simply ask open ended questions. They are like drug addicts, they have to hit their own "bottom" before realizing what waste religion has been.

 

Good luck and hope the forehead heals well.

 

BTW, I wouldn't fuck you. I don't think your my type.

[Mike D]

You can lead a Christian to reason, but you can't force him to think. Isn't that how the saying goes?

 

I know some pretty intelligent people who are Christians, and in every aspect of their lives they think logically, rationally and use good judgement. But then you start talking about religion and all of a sudden they suspend reason, basically they stop thinking. Suddenly everything they know about how reality works gets discarded and they claim they believe things like godmen coming to earth, zombies coming back to life and launching themselves into deep space, angels, demons, etc. I think it's because their emotions overtake their brain, and for that time all rational thought ceases. I've found it takes discipline to keep your emotions in check when it comes to religion. It's the only way to see past the smoke and mirrors. But unfortunately most people don't have what it takes to do that...

[leftofpunk]

My dad gets upset when I refer to Christianity as a "religion". Apparently he sees it as something much more than just merely a religion.

[Grandpa Harley]

It's a club, too...

[Garnet]

No, no, NO!!! It's not a religion, it's a RELATIONSHIP!

 

*gags* I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard that one.

[Grandpa Harley]

They have a relationship with a dead guy? Didn't Alice Cooper write a song about that?

[Garnet]

They have a relationship with a dead guy? Didn't Alice Cooper write a song about that?

 

If he didn't, he should'a.

[Grandpa Harley]

I love the dead,

Before they're cold.

Their bluing flesh

For me to hold.

Cadaver eyes,

upon me see

nothing...

 

Billion Dollar Babies, 1973... IIRC Donovan supplied backing vocals and harmonies on that track and Billion Dollar Baby...

 

 

(Yes, I am that old...)

 

there was also the hoo hah over The Love that Dares to Speak its Name, by Professor James Kirkup, which has a posthumous relationship between a Centurian and the body of Jesus... it was 1977... we don't get many blasphemy cases inthe UK so it stuck with me...

[Garnet]

I never listened that closely to Billion Dollar Babies...I had no idea! I grew up in Phoenix, AZ and Alice sightings were not uncommon. I heard, though, that he's back in the fold. Reconverted to Christianity.

[Grandpa Harley]

Drink does that to a man... 12 step programs have the whole 'higher power' thing built in... still if it keeps him off the sauce and golfing, I don't hold it against any man what he does to get through one more dry day...

 

BTW, both Alice and Professor Kirkup had run ins with Mary Whitehouse, who was a self appointed mediator of British morals... things are a lot duller since she died. Alice not only wrote a song about her, but sent her flowers as thanks for the free publicity...

[Garnet]

*chuckle* Alice has always been one of my favorite people.

 

I get it about the 12 step program. I came to the realization myself a few months ago that drinking a 12-pack of beer and topping it off with 3 to 5 whiskeys every night might be indicative that I have an alcohol problem. But try to find a program this ISN'T 12-step and doesn't invoke a higher power. Bah. There are a couple of programs out there, but they don't appeal to me either. In fact, one of the secular recovery programs, can't remember which one, has this long-arsed power point presentation on a website talking about the "beast" within. Reminded me uncomfortably of church indoctrination. *shrugs* So, I quit drinking on my own. It hasn't been easy, but I have been sober for 7 months.

[R. S. Martin]

Congratulations! Garnet.

[R. S. Martin]

About dialoguing with fundies. Here's an experience I had with one of my sisters. I was telling her how easy like is to just go with the flow and remain Old Order Mennonite.

 

She cut right in and nearly screamed her protest that leaving the OOM is NOT difficult.

 

I was speaking out of experience. She was spouting dogma about stuff she did not understand. A person who is that adamant to retain the status quo at all costs--and at the cost of truth itself--is not ever under any circumstance going to engage in dialogue. And if you don't respond as you would wish they will kill you with their words.

[Dhampir]

I think the best results I ever got in a religious debate was against a couple mormons, when I continually compared their religion to others, practically demanding that they pony up the evidence that their revelations and feelings were different or right as compared to the others.

 

I think the most positive outcome you can expect is when you reduce the number of quick replies they can make to just one. They aren't likely to concede the debate even then; that one response will likely be 'let's agree to disagree' or something like that, but many people will have a problem with their arguments being so pushed down, and they'll want to try to strengthen it, which might cause them to question their beliefs. Sometimes you can even see them questioning as they give their increasingly less convicted answers.

[Grandpa Harley]

*chuckle* Alice has always been one of my favorite people.

 

I get it about the 12 step program. I came to the realization myself a few months ago that drinking a 12-pack of beer and topping it off with 3 to 5 whiskeys every night might be indicative that I have an alcohol problem. But try to find a program this ISN'T 12-step and doesn't invoke a higher power. Bah. There are a couple of programs out there, but they don't appeal to me either. In fact, one of the secular recovery programs, can't remember which one, has this long-arsed power point presentation on a website talking about the "beast" within. Reminded me uncomfortably of church indoctrination. *shrugs* So, I quit drinking on my own. It hasn't been easy, but I have been sober for 7 months.

 

Indeed... I know of Zen 12 steps that don't invoke Gods... Zen/Ch'an is the most atheistic of the various Buddhist sects

 

On the other... congrats on both recognising the problem and having the single mindedness to fix it.

 

Normal service can now be resumed....

[AgnosticBob AtheistPants]

I'm involved in my own head-banging hell at the moment. I've been having an email conversation with several atheists and essentially a pair of Christians. There are others, but there are only two who keep coming back for more on a regular basis. One of them just spouts one-line answers to page long discourses on the faults of Christianity. The other bitches and moans about how we won't listen to anything they say and its "just not fair!"

 

I wish I could find some Christians who could hold their own in a debate and not fall back to the same old horseshit like "God is beyond our comprehension." Doesn't that give us all the more reason to believe such a being wouldn't be justified in roasting all atheists for eternity? How could something so far above us in intellect and ability condemn us for not understanding it?

 

Bunch of stupid bullshit.

 

 

An old friend and I are debating Christianity on a forum. One of my atheists friends brings up how the church pastor on Easter claimed that there was more evidence for the ressurection of Christ than there is that George Washington was the first president of the US.

 

This gets this reply from my fundie friend when we ask him how a man of god could make such a obviously false claim.

 

Um... maybe he researched it? I'm not him so I don't know.

 

BTW George Washington was our first official president, there were a handful of others during the Revolutionary War.

 

to which I reply:

What research is even needed!?

 

On one side we have president Washington. This is documented within very recent history, and was documented at the time of his presidency. If anyone were to dispute this we would call them crazy. That is for a very good reason.

 

On the side of Christ we have the Bible. Even if we decide the Bible is a good source of history (which it's really not) it contains three differing accounts of the event, all which were written many decades after the so called event even happened. The small collection of secular writings discussing Christ mainly just mention Christians, who worship Christus. They say nothing supporting the idea of the ressurection. I believe one even says Christians are ridiculous to actually believe the ressurection.

 

Any miniscule amount of research, or even common sense would not lead you to the conclusion the Pastor Korver reached. I suspect that Pastor Korver knows exactly well that what he said was a lie. I also suspect he thinks it is a lie that is justified, since it could help lead "lost souls" into his sect of Christianity.

 

That is dishonest and immoral. Like I said before, if religion is really so obviously true there wouldn't be reasons to lie like that.

 

It's very upsetting that religion is allowed to make blanket claims based on nothing, and we are expected to respect these beliefs. If there is any attack on religion it is labeled as intolerance. I don't respect religious beliefs, because they are batshit crazy.

 

No Christian respects the beliefs in All-father Odin, or Mormons, or the Greek Pantheon. That is because we can all see these are all obviously false ideas. The only reason you support the belief of Christianity is because you were raised Christian and there's some supposed terrible consequence for not believing in god.

 

There is no good reason to have faith in nonsense. It does not improve life, nor does it get you into heaven.

 

Every single religious (and non-religious) person has the same feelings of awe and wonder that you get. It is a human emotion. After intense prayer it is expected to feel something "supernatural". I feel the same way after I meditate. Muslims feel the same way after their prayer. Hindus feel the same way after their ceremonies of worship. Connecting these highly religious feelings to religious dogma though is a massive leap in a completley illogical direction. The expierence of spirituality in no way proves the existance of a Judeo-Christian god. At best, it merley suggests there may be some spiritual aspect to life. That is something that could be debated, but I will not go into what I think about that here, as this post has already gone into a rather extreme tangent.

 

He retortts me with the brilliantly sarcastic reply. "Ok then."

 

This of course fuels me up even more, so I say something about how beeing so firm in your beliefs is bad, ask for reasons he believes, etc.

...there is no just or noble reason for staying in Christianity. If God is real, why would he send me to hell? I have tried my hardest to understand religion, and everything I see points to the idea that religion is a fabrication of humankind. I don't think any just god could send me to hell for trying my best to understand.

 

Dawkins related a story about the late Bertrand Russell that demonstrates my point.

Bertrand Russell was asked what he would say if he died and found himself confronted by God, demanding to know why Russell had not believed in him. 'Not enough evidence, God, not enough evidence,' was Russell's (I almost said immortal) reply.

 

Think about this. Is any just god going to send you to eternal hell simply for reaching the conclusion that he doesn't exist based the best of your research. I should think not, and if he does, than he is hardly a "just" god.

 

I used to be a "true" Christian. I knew I was correct. I knew God was real. God spoke to me. I spoke to God. I wanted to live my life to fully honor God. I understand the theology and reasoning of Christianity. I know exactly how hard it is to leave these beliefs behind. It took me several years. Not easy years, by any stretch of the imagination. It's something that will ultimatley leave you more fulfilled though, or at least, that is my expierence. For me, leaving my faith behind was an incredibly liberating expierence. Not an easy one, but one that was well worth it.

 

I'm sorry if my approach has been too confrontational for your tastes, but I don't see any other way to press the issue save through confrontation.

 

 

He replies with this pearl of wisdom:

I'm not making any comments on how God is just or whatever because I'd just be comparing him to the human standard of fair. To use a cheap cop-out (that I believe) God is too complex to be described by human standards.

 

I don't like to be called religious either, The Church has fallen far away from what Jesus really taught. I don't like to think this, but we have may have Pastors lying in our own church.

 

God, I am going to fucking die of frustration just trying to have this kid see any common sense whatsoever.

 

Maybe I'm being too confrontational??? If anyone has any idea of something I could use in this debate I'd really appreciate it. Then again, it seems rather hopeless when he refuses to even really engage in any sort of discourse or have any fucking ounce of common sense. Fucking hell.