I'm A Christian And I Challenge You

[Wanderer]

Hello everyone. I'm new here.

 

So this is a forum for Ex-Christians?

 

I've heard there are some here who have "proof" that there is no God, or questions that no Christians have (as of yet) been able to answer? Is that right? I've logged in to meet you all out of curiosity as to how firm your arguments really are.

 

I'm a Christian, and I challenge ALL OF YOU.

 

Ask me any question, point out any "mistakes" in the Bible, present me with any scientific "evidence"... Say or bring up any point you want, and I will answer you plainly.

 

Let's try to keep these converstions courteous though, shall we?

[Thurisaz]

Greetings from Germany, Wanderer.

 

"No God" at all? Impossible to prove. What if the deity (of whatever kind) wants to hide from us? I trust you refer to the christian deity specifically.

 

Well, depending on how literally you think the bible is, one disproof for the biblical god is damn easy. After all, christians (the more literalist the more insistent) keep telling us all that their god is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent. Too bad that the world we live in is totally incompatible with such a deity. At least one of the omni-claims must be wrong... or if the christian god is to have them all, then... he's impossible and therefore doesn't exist.

 

That's just one thing crossing my mind currently, while I'm doing about 5 different things at the same time. I'm sure others will give you the questions and arguments you ask for soon.

[Wanderer]

Okay then. You've told me God can not exist, and that He is "incompatible" with the world. I may as well reply that "God *does* exist and *is* compatible", and then we would go around in cirlcles. So do you or do you not have anything (evidence, mistakes with the Bible etc.) to actually *support* your claims? Anything at all?

[Vixentrox]

Have any evidence that Allah or Thor or Zeus or Ra, or Kali or any of the hundreds of other gods are not the true god? When you list the reasons they are not true gods, you'll see that neither is that barbaric goat herder tribal god you worship.

[Alice]

Hi Wanderer,

 

I'd like to put some questions to you about who you are and where you are 'coming from' before asking you specific questions about the 'evidence' you see for your beliefs, hope this is OK.

 

1. How did you chose the name 'wanderer' - it seems to give the impression you'll be off at a moments notice. Not sure that I want to spend time setting out detailed questions if that is likely to be the case.

 

2. How do you view the Bible? Conversing with christians is in many ways like trying to clutch jelly ... a lot depends on where you stand in terms of interpretation of the Bible.

 

3. Do you think that saying 'no he's not incompatible' is a useful or respectful answer to the serious issue of the various omni concepts appearing to be inconsistent.

 

Alice

[Wanderer]

Have any evidence that Allah or Thor or Zeus or Ra, or Kali or any of the hundreds of other gods and not the true god? When you list the reasons they are not true gods, you'll see that neither is that barbaric goat herading tribal god you worship.

 

Ah! I didn't expect this to be very courteous anyway... I'll at least try and be polite, however...

I could say the same in reference to your own "god".

I wonder, if ever you were to come across say, a rock on the beach, or a plank of wood, would you bow down to and humble yourself before it?

The idols of other gods were made by the hands of humans; they have eyes, but they can't see. They have noses, but they can't smell. They have legs, but can't walk- humans have to carry them. They are merely pieces of material, like rocks or planks of wood on the beach. Not so with Christ. Christ teaches wisdom, and sees and hears more than humans- and certainly more than idols of wood and stone. He does not need to be carried by humans, and protects those who have faith in Him. He raises up the weak and humbles the proud...

Can you say the same for your god?

[Vixentrox]

2. How do you view the Bible? Conversing with christians is in many ways like trying to clutch jelly ... a lot depends on where you stand in terms of interpretation of the Bible.

Ohh, good. So many are literal belivers, some are literal only when they want to be, some think most of it is allegorical...

[Casey]

OK. When Moses came down from the mountain after God allegedly told him the Israelites were indulging in a bit of idol worship, he got his knickers in a twist and destroyed the golden calf (Exodus 33) right?

 

But in Numbers we have

The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."

 

And

So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

 

So when you make a calf and worship that, that's idolatry. When you make a snake and people look at it, they are cured?

Explain

Casey

[Wanderer]

Hi Wanderer,

 

I'd like to put some questions to you about who you are and where you are 'coming from' before asking you specific questions about the 'evidence' you see for your beliefs, hope this is OK.

 

1. How did you chose the name 'wanderer' - it seems to give the impression you'll be off at a moments notice. Not sure that I want to spend time setting out detailed questions if that is likely to be the case.

 

2. How do you view the Bible? Conversing with christians is in many ways like trying to clutch jelly ... a lot depends on where you stand in terms of interpretation of the Bible.

 

3. Do you think that saying 'no he's not incompatible' is a useful or respectful answer to the serious issue of the various omni concepts appearing to be inconsistent.

 

Alice

 

Hi, Alice.

No offence; I came here to here the arguments against Christianity, and speak against them, not to talk about login names.

As for your second question; I view the Bible, of course, as completely truthful. Not so much because that's how I've been raised, but because I have personally read the entire Bible and not found a single mistake; I've found that it truly gives an accurate picture of the world.

 

Third question; if my beliefs seem inconsistent, then please point out the flaw.

[Vigile]

Don't be stupid. You can't prove a negative.

 

I'm an atheist and I and other members here will answer all your proofs that there is a god. You're the one making the claim dumbass.

 

Just another burden of proof shift like so many that came before you and that will follow in your place once you get pissed off and leave.

 

Was I rude? That’s because we are getting weary of the same old tired arguments. At least come up with something new why don’t ya?

 

Yawn...

[Alice]

The idols of other gods were made by the hands of humans; they have eyes, but they can't see. They have noses, but they can't smell. They have legs, but can't walk- humans have to carry them.

 

Do you really have so little knowledge of other faiths that you believe that Islam is a religion based on a hand carved idol with eyes, noses and legs?

 

Before you then assume that I am an adherent of Islam - let me advise you that I'm not. I am just as much of an atheist when it comes to Islam as you are, however I do try and establish what it is I'm talking about before deciding whether or not I believe it.

 

Alice

[Wanderer]

OK. When Moses came down from the mountain after God allegedly told him the Israelites were indulging in a bit of idol worship, he got his knickers in a twist and destroyed the golden calf (Exodus 33) right?

 

But in Numbers we have

The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."

 

And

So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

 

So when you make a calf and worship that, that's idolatry. When you make a snake and people look at it, they are cured?

Explain

Casey

 

The golden calf and the bronze snake are like symbols. When the people of Israel made the calf, it was betraying the true God who performed miracels before their eyes.

The snake on the pole represents something like the defeat of Satan, and of sin. (The devil is often referred to as a snake in the Bible.)

The symbol of that snake was invented by God, and was *not* worshipped. When people looked at the snake, it was showing they had faith in the Lord that he could heal them, and so He did so.

[Wanderer]

Don't be stupid. You can't prove a negative.

 

I'm an atheist and I and other members here will answer all your proofs that there is a god. You're the one making the claim dumbass.

 

Just another burden of proof shift like so many that came before you and that will follow in your place once you get pissed off and leave.

 

Was I rude? That’s because we are getting weary of the same old tired arguments. At least come up with something new why don’t ya?

 

Yawn...

Okay then, explain this; when scientists designed a craft with the purpouse of landing on the moon, it was a strange-shaped machine with many long "legs". The reason was the scientists believed that since the world had been around for millions of years, the rock of the moon would have therefore weakened and there would be many metres of dust above the solid ground- or some theory like that. Turned out the dust was only a few inches deep when they actually landed on April 69.

[Wanderer]

The idols of other gods were made by the hands of humans; they have eyes, but they can't see. They have noses, but they can't smell. They have legs, but can't walk- humans have to carry them.

 

Do you really have so little knowledge of other faiths that you believe that Islam is a religion based on a hand carved idol with eyes, noses and legs?

 

Before you then assume that I am an adherent of Islam - let me advise you that I'm not. I am just as much of an atheist when it comes to Islam as you are, however I do try and establish what it is I'm talking about before deciding whether or not I believe it.

 

Alice

[Wanderer]

Do you really have so little knowledge of other faiths that you believe that Islam is a religion based on a hand carved idol with eyes, noses and legs?

 

Before you then assume that I am an adherent of Islam - let me advise you that I'm not. I am just as much of an atheist when it comes to Islam as you are, however I do try and establish what it is I'm talking about before deciding whether or not I believe it.

 

Alice

 

Do you mean to say I didn't establish what I'm talking about? I'm talking about Christianity as logical truth as opposed to other theories that are not based on fact.

[Alice]

Hi, Alice.

No offence; I came here to here the arguments against Christianity, and speak against them, not to talk about login names.

As for your second question; I view the Bible, of course, as completely truthful. Not so much because that's how I've been raised, but because I have personally read the entire Bible and not found a single mistake; I've found that it truly gives an accurate picture of the world.

 

Third question; if my beliefs seem inconsistent, then please point out the flaw.

 

Hi Wanderer,

 

it appears that courtesy is important to you. Implicit in my first question was a request for information as to whether or not you are likely to abandon the conversation when the going gets tough. Your choice of login name certainly seems to imply this and a regular experience on these forms is the arrival of christians claiming to know all the answers who then scarper when they realise they have bitten off more than they can chew. I would suggest that your choice of login name is based on a psychological self preparation for this to happen.

 

I accept that you do not wish to discuss this choice of yours, however I would ask you to give me the courtsey of answering this question, 'will you scarper as soon as the going gets tough or will you stay and thoughtfully review the information you read here, with an open mind and a willingness to learn - in the same way that you would hope us to consider the information you impart?'

 

p.s if keeping the tone of the conversation courteous is important to you, you may wish to ask one of the moderators if they will move this topic to the collesium - which is the area especially designed for conversations conducted thus.

[Casey]

ON THE END OF THE WORLD

"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. " -- Matthew 16:28

 

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. " -- Luke 21:32-33

 

"And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light." -- Romans 13:11-12

 

"Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." -- James 5:8

 

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." -- 1 John 2:18

 

"But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer." -- 1 Peter 4:7

 

These words were written between 1800 and 1900 years ago and were meant to warn and prepare the first Christians for the immediate end of the world. Some words are those supposedly straight out of the mouth of the "Son of God." The world did not end 1800 or 1900 years ago. All that generation passed away without any of the things foretold coming to pass. No amount of prayer brought it about; nor ever so much patience and belief and sober living. The world went on, as usual, indifferent to the spoutings of yet another batch of doomsday prophets with visions of messiahs dancing in their deluded brains. The world, by surviving, makes the above passages contradictions.

Casey

[Wanderer]

Hi, Alice.

No offence; I came here to here the arguments against Christianity, and speak against them, not to talk about login names.

As for your second question; I view the Bible, of course, as completely truthful. Not so much because that's how I've been raised, but because I have personally read the entire Bible and not found a single mistake; I've found that it truly gives an accurate picture of the world.

 

Third question; if my beliefs seem inconsistent, then please point out the flaw.

 

Hi Wanderer,

 

it appears that courtesy is important to you. Implicit in my first question was a request for information as to whether or not you are likely to abandon the conversation when the going gets tough. Your choice of login name certainly seems to imply this and a regular experience on these forms is the arrival of christians claiming to know all the answers who then scarper when they realise they have bitten off more than they can chew. I would suggest that your choice of login name is based on a psychological self preparation for this to happen.

 

I accept that you do not wish to discuss this choice of yours, however I would ask you to give me the courtsey of answering this question, 'will you scarper as soon as the going gets tough or will you stay and thoughtfully review the information you read here, with an open mind and a willingness to learn - in the same way that you would hope us to consider the information you impart?'

 

p.s if keeping the tone of the conversation courteous is important to you, you may wish to ask one of the moderators if they will move this topic to the collesium - which is the area especially designed for conversations conducted thus.

 

Leave when the going gets tough? I doubt it will. Will you?

[Alice]

Do you mean to say I didn't establish what I'm talking about? I'm talking about Christianity as logical truth as opposed to other theories that are not based on fact.

 

Wanderer,

 

you dismissed a belief in various other Gods by suggesting that these were all based on the worship of man made carved idols, there are no man made carved idols in Islam - therefore I am suggesting that you have decided that you are an islamic atheist (you do not believe in the existence of allah) without knowing what you are talking about.

 

If the God you believe in is the God of the Jews, then the God you believe in is also the God of Islam. Same basic belief drawn form the same core set of scriptures.

 

Of course - christianity teaches that the revelation given in these core scriptures was incomplete until the arrival of Jesus, so christians therefore believe they have a better understanding of the nature of God as a result - but its the same God being worshipped by all three groups, christians, Jews and muslims. Please at tleast get this straight!

[Wanderer]

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. " -- Luke 21:32-33

 

"And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light." -- Romans 13:11-12

 

"Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." -- James 5:8

 

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." -- 1 John 2:18

 

"But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer." -- 1 Peter 4:7

 

These words were written between 1800 and 1900 years ago and were meant to warn and prepare the first Christians for the immediate end of the world. Some words are those supposedly straight out of the mouth of the "Son of God." The world did not end 1800 or 1900 years ago. All that generation passed away without any of the things foretold coming to pass. No amount of prayer brought it about; nor ever so much patience and belief and sober living. The world went on, as usual, indifferent to the spoutings of yet another batch of doomsday prophets with visions of messiahs dancing in their deluded brains. The world, by surviving, makes the above passages contradictions.

Casey

First of all, Jesus is referring to "hell" as death. The death you think Jesus refers to is the kind that is merely the leaving of the spirit from the body. Hell is true death. Also, the book of John is talking the future of our own age, when the last days finally take place.

[Wanderer]

Do you mean to say I didn't establish what I'm talking about? I'm talking about Christianity as logical truth as opposed to other theories that are not based on fact.

 

Wanderer,

 

you dismissed a belief in various other Gods by suggesting that these were all based on the worship of man made carved idols, there are no man made carved idols in Islam - therefore I am suggesting that you have decided that you are an islamic atheist (you do not believe in the existence of allah) without knowing what you are talking about.

 

If the God you believe in is the God of the Jews, then the God you believe in is also the God of Islam. Same basic belief drawn form the same core set of scriptures.

 

Of course - christianity teaches that the revelation given in these core scriptures was incomplete until the arrival of Jesus, so christians therefore believe they have a better understanding of the nature of God as a result - but its the same God being worshipped by all three groups, christians, Jews and muslims. Please at tleast get this straight!

 

If you read the book of Islam you will find that it merely copies wise teachings from the Bible, then undermines it. Christiantiy and Islam are different religeons with different beliefs. Also, truly accepting Jesus is not so much about words with nothing behind them, but a true acceptance of the Holy Spirit. Other religeons try to make themselves righteous and improve themselves in human ways, while Christianity accepts that mankind is sinful by nature and is baptised and cleansed in the Holy Spirit.

[Alice]

Leave when the going gets tough? I doubt it will. Will you?

 

I'm not known for leaving when the going gets tough, but I am liable to opt out if questions are not answered openly and respectfully. I will also be likely to leave if it seems that someone is not approaching the conversation with an open mind and a willingness to learn. This needs to be a two way street of course and I am open to new ideas. There are a lot of incredible people on this site and I have learnt masses in the years I have been a member. I note that your opening post was very much set out as a challenge, so I may not have an approach that you find engaging. I'm much more interested in shared dialogue than in competative debate.

 

In a previous post you mention seeing the Bible as 'the truth'. From this I take that you see the Bible as the 'inherent word of God'? Please correct me if I've gotten this wrong. I believe that the Bible contains some 'truths' and once upon a time I believed that it was the actual word of God.

 

What changed this belief for me was a gradual realisation about our ability to 'access truth'. I dawned on me that if there was an actual word of God (even if God had written it him/herself with a giant celestial biro!) I could never access it as such - as soon as the words left the page and entered my understanding they became the limited human fallible understanding of the words. The Bible taught me this - who can know the mind of God.

 

How did you arrive at your belief that the Bible is 'true' and what does this mean for you in practice?

[Wanderer]

I'm not known for leaving when the going gets tough, but I am liable to opt out if questions are not answered openly and respectfully. I will also be likely to leave if it seems that someone is not approaching the conversation with an open mind and a willingness to learn. This needs to be a two way street of course and I am open to new ideas. There are a lot of incredible people on this site and I have learnt masses in the years I have been a member. I note that your opening post was very much set out as a challenge, so I may not have an approach that you find engaging. I'm much more interested in shared dialogue than in competative debate.

 

In a previous post you mention seeing the Bible as 'the truth'. From this I take that you see the Bible as the 'inherent word of God'? Please correct me if I've gotten this wrong. I believe that the Bible contains some 'truths' and once upon a time I believed that it was the actual word of God.

 

What changed this belief for me was a gradual realisation about our ability to 'access truth'. I dawned on me that if there was an actual word of God (even if God had written it him/herself with a giant celestial biro!) I could never access it as such - as soon as the words left the page and entered my understanding they became the limited human fallible understanding of the words. The Bible taught me this - who can know the mind of God.

 

How did you arrive at your belief that the Bible is 'true' and what does this mean for you in practice?

 

I have answered your questions respectfully enough. Can you point out anything "disrespectful" that I've said?

You are right in these things; my opening was set out as a challenge. Was that wrong of me?

And yes, I view the Bible as the Word of God.

Also, you said you viewed the Bible as "limited human fallible understanding". Okay. You've just told me what we've been debating about. Your point being?

 

Now let me ask you the question I asked previously, that caused one loud-mouthed member to leave because the going got tough.

What of April 69 when the first landing on the moon was made? Read what I wrote and tell me... can you answer this question?

[Evolution_beyond]

Why did God suddenly decide part way through history that he wanted to forgive people for their sins? Did he change his mind?

 

And why would he have to come down and die for us in order to simply forgive us? Why not simply forgive us? Who is forcing him to stick to the rules that he set up originally in the first place? Hardly an Omnipotent deity.

[Casey]

Also, the book of John is talking the future of our own age, when the last days finally take place.

 

Yeah, right. Which brings us to the strange case of Hal Lindsay. I remember reading some book of his, The Late Great Planet Earth if I remember rightly. Therein he stated that the world would end as a result of a catastrophic nuclear war between Russia and Israel. Yack yack yack. The Soviet Union is now as dead as Julius Caesar but that doesn't stop Hal from raving on. Ah well, he might as well rave there as in bed, eh?

Casey