Former Follier Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 I am in personal communication with LurkinLuke about this very topic and many others and, by posting this here, I am hoping to open a free-flowing dialogue between us on this point as well as anyone else who would like to jump in. Apologists, agnostics, atheists, deists, etc... all are welcome. If God (YHWH) is omniscient, why does he see fit to allow free will since he already knows the ultimate outcome of all humanity? Free will is no longer "free" if the future is already mapped out. Along the same lines as my first question: If God is omniscient, why would he possibly test humans with hard times since the very purpose of a test is to determine the various possible results depending on actions taken within the test. God supposedly already knows everything by definition, so why would he need to test humans? It couldn't possibly be to make us stronger. If that were the case, he could simply will us to be stronger (omnipotence) rather than using a human method (testing) in order to strengthen us. Trial by fire? How is that loving? Conversely, how is that just? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick5 Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Of course yaweh doesnt know everything. He is constantly shocked and surprised by the actions of humans throughout the old testament, and at one point he even feels sorry that he ever created them. And then of course you have stories like when he's testing isaac in a way that is completely sick, twisted and wrong, which also prove that he doesn't know everything. Or when he's looking for adam in the first chapter, after he ate the fruit... "what have you done" etc etc. Of course, if he knew everything, then he's the only one to blame for putting his tree in a place that humans had access to. The list goes on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 God's Omniscience In Question, Why would God test us to see the outcome when he is omniscient?It's not for his benefit. He does it so we know, because we aren't omniscient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGJ@ReligionisBullshit Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent These contradictions present the case for a something beyond our comprehension. Space and time are intertwined. Omnipresent, present throughout everywhere. Of course, everywhere includes everywhen. If he is present everywhere and everywhen then all destinies are decided, even his own. The only exception would be if he exists outside of our space-time. If that is the case, then he does not exist in our dimension, nor would he be subject to our logic or even our definition. Omnipotent suggests all ability, including being able to step into our own dimension without being subject to our laws of physics. If he is outside our laws of phyisics, he is beyond limitation. Limitation comes through definition. If you held a three dimensional object before a two dimensional being, the being would only be able to comprehend two dimensions. Therefore, trying to prove or disprove, even define god in our terms is not possible. Defining something as the three omni's, pure love, or whatever definition religion or science tries to put on something outside our own comprehension only puts limitations and restrictions. You cannot limit what you cannot describe. You cannot describe what you do not know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 It's just another of Yahooweh's impossible attributes. If he knows all, then why test us? He knows therefore how we'll turn out - yet he punishes us, displaying the attitude that only a cruel being could, not an all-loving one. Hence, Yahooweh is impossible, and the very texts describing him are that which disprove him. He's a classic example of human inability to create coherent fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGJ@ReligionisBullshit Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Varokhar, are you agreeing with me again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Varokhar, are you agreeing with me again? Or are you agreeing with me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 It's one of the many many questions to which the morontheist replies are perfectly predictable: Option 1: (desperate attempt to change topic) Option 2: (Silence - acting as if the question had never been asked) Option 3: "You don't understand what omniscience is!" (followed by a morontheist definition that inevitably says "Omniscience = non-omniscience"... uh huh... Option 4: (also the default after everything else failed) Braindead preaching/threats/insults a la "You're blinded by saaataaan!!!11!!!!!" It never failed me so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOkkata Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 It's one of the many many questions to which the morontheist replies are perfectly predictable: Option 1: (desperate attempt to change topic) Option 2: (Silence - acting as if the question had never been asked) Option 3: "You don't understand what omniscience is!" (followed by a morontheist definition that inevitably says "Omniscience = non-omniscience"... uh huh... Option 4: (also the default after everything else failed) Braindead preaching/threats/insults a la "You're blinded by saaataaan!!!11!!!!!" It never failed me so far. I love that. I've had this argument with people before. God being omnipotent negates free will, pure and simple. It also doesn't fit his behavior pattern in the bible. For example: God left the 'tree of knowledge' in the garden of Eden right? He then told the two humans, not to screw around with it. Don't eat it, you can't have any. Eve, [in the bible, you'll notice it's always the woman's fault] ignored him, and used her feminine wiles to make Adam disobey him with her. God knew this outcome was going to happen. He's omnipotent, all knowing, and all powerful. He's god. So, basically, god made us imperfect, on purpose, and then blamed us for it? I have to pause for a moment for my brain to catch up. It always falters and screams in agony for a few moments as my logic circuits short out. Then there's the deal with the Pharao in Exodus. God sent his 'messenger' to talk with someone who he knew wasn't going to listen. He then purposely hardened the guy's heart, just to be a prick. [i know it says his wife did it, but come on. Omnipotent, and all powerful remember?] Couldn't he have just used his SUPREME and WONDROUS POWER to make the guy a little nicer? Pharao didn't even need to know it was him? I mean, sure, he could have just come down out of the sky and slaped him upside his head, but nooooo. He had to torment an entire region for a while. Such a kind a generous all knowing being. The god in the bible is an ignorant arrogant hateful prick, plain and simple. I've no idea where this all knowing crap came into play, but the very idea is just silly. Even if he did exist, [i'm convinced he doesn't] it doesn't fit the profile of what the bible tells us about him at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qadeshet Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 If Yahweh is all knowing, there is no free will. Our every thought and action have been known since the beginning of time. If he is all powerful, how then to explain the existence of evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 I don't beleive in god so there! A nonexistent being could be all of those contradictory things and more, whatever is needed to placate anxious humans and salve their fears and fancies and feelings. Oops! I see this is the Coleseum and we're supposed to be half-decent here. Not sure if that is half-decent. I'm pretty much brain-dead right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 I am in personal communication with LurkinLuke about this very topic and many others and, by posting this here, I am hoping to open a free-flowing dialogue between us on this point as well as anyone else who would like to jump in. Apologists, agnostics, atheists, deists, etc... all are welcome. If God (YHWH) is omniscient, why does he see fit to allow free will since he already knows the ultimate outcome of all humanity? Free will is no longer "free" if the future is already mapped out. Along the same lines as my first question: If God is omniscient, why would he possibly test humans with hard times since the very purpose of a test is to determine the various possible results depending on actions taken within the test. God supposedly already knows everything by definition, so why would he need to test humans? It couldn't possibly be to make us stronger. If that were the case, he could simply will us to be stronger (omnipotence) rather than using a human method (testing) in order to strengthen us. Trial by fire? How is that loving? Conversely, how is that just? i think there is a difference in knowing the future and mapping out the future. just because you know someone is going to do something, doesn't mean you caused them to do it, or took away thier choice in the matter. i truely doubt anybody can ever say "God made me do it," or at least i can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 i think there is a difference in knowing the future and mapping out the future. just because you know someone is going to do something, doesn't mean you caused them to do it, or took away thier choice in the matter. i truely doubt anybody can ever say "God made me do it," or at least i can't. Well, that depends on how you view things I guess. Let's imagine that our existence is a movie. From the "inside" it appears that we are making spontaneous choices. We wake up. Go into another room. Turn left. Turn right. Get some food. All because we choose to do so. From the "outside," it's a different story though. We must do those things I describe above. The movie is made. There is no ability for the "actor" to sleep in. It's not part of the movie. When we watch movies we don't make the actors do anything but they cannot do anything differently...ever. They have no will of their own. Assuming that the viewer of the movie knows the show intimately this means that there are no surprises. The actors are locked in forever. So "free will" becomes an illusion. Something that we believe we have but it's not real because all of our "moves" are known by this outside observer. To this "god" that deathbed conversion scene was written in from the start. He knew we'd do it. We couldn't NOT do it. So it's not that we're being forced one way or the other to make decisions but the decisions we are making were known before the universe itself was created (according to this concept). As soon as this all knowing being "envisioned" all there was to envision then everything was simply set in stone by that one fact. He knew all in that fleeting moment. All he'd ever do. All we'd ever do. All. In one single thought. Now we're just letting the "movie" run and it can only play out one way. Any changes means he didn't know "all" or those changes were taken into account in the first thought that was "all." We're trapped in his omniscience and so is he. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 i think there is a difference in knowing the future and mapping out the future. just because you know someone is going to do something, doesn't mean you caused them to do it, or took away thier choice in the matter. i truely doubt anybody can ever say "God made me do it," or at least i can't. you are talking about a god who has numbered the hairs on our heads and knows when a sparrow drops. One with that much knowledge and one who has infinite power to create would then know the precise effect of each and every cause that he/she were responsible for. Think Back to the Future for a moment. Recall that as MJ Fox interacted with the past that he affected the future. God's cause would be the same. As such, he is responsible for everything. He can't claim ignorance or impotence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Personally I find the whole ide of omniscience to be absurd. If god knows everything in the future before it happens, then he knows everything he himself will do before he does it, forever. Then why would god bother thinking at all? Apparently he made all his own decisions before he thought about them, so there's nothing to think about today. Or ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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