Peanut Gallery: Disallusioned With The American Me Presence?

[Vigile]

Yet, when one uses fear by the killing of innocent people to terrorize a country into their position by a bullying force...

 

Does the term "shock and awe" ring any bells?

 

BTW, US revolutionaries could be described as terrorists if you happened to be British in 1776.

[Vigile]

Hey, I HATE war too! Does someone have any better ideas, ones that we hadn't tried first?

 

Uh, not starting one maybe?

[Amanda]

Paul Craig Roberts is known to have a brilliant mind and an extraordinary resume. It would have been much more impressive had he stated some solutions instead of persisting in the easy realms of the Blame Game... IMO.

 

It seems to me that the only people who do nothing wrong, are people who do nothing.

[Amanda]

Hey, I HATE war too! Does someone have any better ideas, ones that we hadn't tried first?

 

Uh, not starting one maybe?

What about defending ourself? Should our defense policy be corrective, proactive, or complacent? How would you suggest to approach the terrorism happening around the world?

 

BTW, from what I've seen on TV, it is our plan to be receding from that area rather quickly. Do you think this world would have been a better place had Saddam Hussein retained his power? Why do you think we went there in the first place? Why was it that basically the whole congress had said that Saddam was an eminent threat to us? Why did the UN declare sanctions on Iraq? Nothing to you personally Vigile Del Fuocco 1, I do like and respect you and everyone else here... however it seems it's easy to sit on the sidelines and Monday morning quarterback, complaining about what went wrong, and playing demigods with such simple solutions to complex problems. The presidency "hot seat" is not an enviable position to be IMO. It's one where you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

[Amanda]

Found here:

 

<snip> World Updates

April 26, 2007

Bin Laden overseeing Iraq, Afghanistan ops - Taliban

 

By Jim Forsyth

DUBAI (Reuters) - Al Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden is orchestrating militants' operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, a senior Taliban commander said in remarks broadcast on Wednesday.

 

Bin Laden has not made any video statements for many months raising speculation that he might have died.

 

"He is drawing plans in Iraq and Afghanistan ... Praise God he is alive," Mullah Dadullah told Al Jazeera television.

 

And here:

 

Taliban: Bin Laden plans Iraq strikes

POSTED: 12:41 p.m. EDT, April 25, 2007

<snip> Taliban military commander Mullah Dadullah, shown here in a 2006 image, says Osama bin Laden has helped plan attacks in Iraq.

[Vigile]

What about defending ourself?

 

Iraq was offense, not defense. I keep repeating that. It also had nothing to do with any type of threat to the US. You don't want to accept this because you think that everything your government does is benevolent, but in fact it is imperialistic. Just like Japan; just like Germany. The justifications that you have fallen for are only for the naive and they have constantly shape shifted.

 

In the gun control thread, I wrote this (it applies here as well):

 

No one understands the percentages. The chances of anyone or anyone anyone knows getting killed by terror is smaller than winning the lottery. The chances of getting killed by a mad gunman is a wee bit higher, but about the same. The chances of dying from a heart attack because you indulged in 100-200 big macs than you should have is more than 25%.

 

People who don't get this and who get their panties in a wad over things that they are at almost 0 risk, including terror and mad gunmen, are just being irrational and are falling for emotional appeals. They are immature and their voting habits and support of bad policy is bad for society. They are worse for society than the occasional terrorist or gunman because their actions and their support leads to bad policy that has a real (read not imagined) effect on other people's and their own lives.

 

. Do you think this world would have been a better place had Saddam Hussein retained his power?

 

Absolutely. It was a better place with Sadam. It had stability, it had infrastructure, there was a balance of power in the region.

 

Now we have no more infrastructure, people are starving, scores more are dead than Sadam ever thought of killing, and worst of all, there is a power vaccum and civil wars that promise to last for decades. And on top of all that, how do we know that the next guy to come to power won't be worse than Sadam? It's happened before when US foreign policy has gone awry.

 

Why do you think we went there in the first place?

 

Oil

 

Why was it that basically the whole congress had said that Saddam was an eminent threat to us?

 

Because they are fools with no backbone to even ask a decent question. Bush had political capital after 911 and they were all pussies afraid of being labeled anti patriotic.

 

You do realize that Hitler was an elected official in a democratic government do you not? Why is it that his government rubber stamped his policy as well? Even early on when there was no personal threat to their well being?

 

Why did the UN declare sanctions on Iraq?

 

Pressure from the US. Don't underestimate how much pressure our government can put on other nations.

 

it's easy to sit on the sidelines and Monday morning quarterback,

 

Cheap cop out. Everyone outside the US was predicting exactly this outcome before we even invaded. The US was living in a Bush bubble of propaganda and couldn't see through to the obvious future. It doesn't take a genius to have seen this outcome before it occured.

 

As I noted earlier in this thread, I'm not so sure our government didn't see this outcome either. They just didn't care. They wanted the oil. And, as HuiDan pointed out, they wanted to spend lots of money on military and rebuilding contracts. Those you look up to don't care about your tax dollars, they care only about their corporate sponsors.

 

As for your notes on terror you posted:

 

Who knows what BL is up to now, but this is after the fact. He was not involved in Iraq when we attacked. That's important don't you think?

[Vigile]

No offense Amanda, but when debating you on this issue I feel like I'm debating an American mob, not a rational individual. Questioning your government is not only your right, but it is your responsibility as a good citizen. You have not questioned them on this issue, but have bought every one of their arguments hook, line and sinker. Which is really odd to, since the government's arguments have changed so often. I wonder have you fallen for each contradicting reason why we are in Iraq as the official line has changed?

[Lightbearer]

Vigile do you manage hedge funds by any chance? Just wondering, based on what you said in your post.

 

Anyways, i've seen everything everyones posted about the oil already. That's why back when this began I protested against the war. I fought tooth and nail with everyone around me about this whole thing. Did you know Haliburton was the only company to go in after the invansion and begin extracting oil? Doesn't that seem suspicious, off course it does. Then I talked to people who worked at Haliburton who said that they are the only ones with the specific technology and with the capital to risk taking it on. Most oil companies won't touch it. Everyone you set up oil rigs thats not in the First World you run the risk of it being bomb/nationalized. Iraq's too much of a risk for investment. Plus the army would go secure Saddams sources of financing and energy too, in order to cut him off while they went in right? It makes strategic sense.

 

It was doomed from the start because Bush wanted to bring democracy to people who want to kill each other. Democracy is not freedom, it's mob rule, and if you give that to a bunch of warring mobs then you get the situation you see here. I'd argue that these terrorists, more appropriately, jihadists, don't care about freedom. They only want everyone out of their way so they can make everyone submit to their barbaric and irrational religion. Kind of like Christians, without the influence of Western culture.

 

Plus, the army has already stated it's doing everything it can to avoid the loss of civilian life, which results in the death of our own soilders. Honestly, I know they don't care about the people fighting. They care about not being blamed for the deaths of Iraqi civilians.

 

This all sidetracts from the real issue here, which is Iran. It's always been Iran. Now that we've gone and fucked up in two other countries, actually going after Iran is going to be next to impossible. If you went after Iran then everyone would be quoting George Orwell and saying "We've always been at war with Eastasia " so forth and so on.

 

As far as connecting the dots in this situation goes, I think everyone makes up dots and connects them and ignores everything else. That goes for both pro and anti-Iraq war people.

 

Oh, and please make the distinction between the "War on Terror" and the "Iraq War" they aren't one and the same and, as we all can visible see, have little to do with each other.

[Amanda]

Iraq was offense, not defense. I keep repeating that. It also had nothing to do with any type of threat to the US.

 

Why was it that basically the whole congress had said that Saddam was an eminent threat to us?

 

Because they are fools with no backbone to even ask a decent question. Bush had political capital after 911 and they were all pussies afraid of being labeled anti patriotic.

 

You do realize that Hitler was an elected official in a democratic government do you not? Why is it that his government rubber stamped his policy as well? Even early on when there was no personal threat to their well being?

Vigile Del Fuoco 1, before 9/11 these congressmen and past presidents had stated Saddam Hussein was an eminent threat to the US. So you think our senators and representatives do not stand up for what they think is best for our country? If they "flip flop," they should be held accountable for that in their next election effort. If we continue to vote them in... so be it.

 

Hitler being an elected official in a democratic country is what put Germany in the position to be held accountable and responsible for their decisions they make. When a person hijacks a country by brute force and holds the people hostage under his forceful rule while his bulldogs hide amongst innocent people, then it is more difficult to hold the whole country responsible for a madman's actions.

You don't want to accept this because you think that everything your government does is benevolent, but in fact it is imperialistic. Just like Japan; just like Germany. The justifications that you have fallen for are only for the naive and they have constantly shape shifted.

I have to assume my government officials know more than me, and further they want to preside as a benevolent entity in the world. It seems we befriend countries... even Iraq. Foreign diplomatic relations are of high significance, IMO.

Absolutely. It was a better place with Sadam. It had stability, it had infrastructure, there was a balance of power in the region.

It had forced stability only because there was no choice. They hated Saddam, and that is what made it hard to hold the country accountable for a madman. A new type of collectively enforced stability is going to be hard to establish because of the generational autocratic rule of stability by terror. Those are hard to erase and begin anew, because these Iraqians don't know anything else. Brutal actions inducing fear, including widespread genocide, will rob people of their ability to think for themselves.

 

Why do you think we went there in the first place?

 

Oil

Why oil? Are we stealing it for free? Are they giving it to us for free? We have other countries that are willing to sell us oil. We just want those resources to go to the people of that country... not to terrorist that hide behind innocent people.

 

Why did the UN declare sanctions on Iraq?

Pressure from the US. Don't underestimate how much pressure our government can put on other nations.

Pressure of reason?

 

Vigile Del Fuoco 1, I respect your opinion... and more importantly your heart. If everyone was like you, this would be a perfect world, IMO. I don't like war either... and would hope that it is the last resort. We embrace other cultures and welcome them into our country. We even voted a Muslim into office somewhere in our country. I was married to a wonderful guy from the ME, whose father was from Iraq. I think most people from those countries have Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and are just tired of war. Most everyone just wants peace. I want peace, you want peace, all of us here want peace. However, there are a few fanatics that will not let that happen... so does everyone just remain complacent about it? Do we let the fanatical Muslims do what the fanatical Christians did? I hear lots of blame and accusations, but no one seems to have a better solution, other than just get out of there and just let what will happen, happen.

 

Below found here.

General Petraeus also accused Iran of playing an exstensive role in the violence in Iraq.

 

"We have learned a great deal more about Iranian involvement, very nefarious involvement, involving funding, training on Iranian soil, advice and the provision of lots of arms and ammunition including these explosively-formed projectiles that have been so lethal against some of our armoured vehicles," he said.

 

These fanatical Iranians feel this should be a fanatical Muslim world also... and we are the infadels.

[Vixentrox]

That last quoted article sounds like it could have come from a Soviet era newspaper about the US supporting the mujahadeen in Afgahnhistan when the Soviets invaded there.

[Japedo]

Vigile Del Fuoco 1, before 9/11 these congressmen and past presidents had stated Saddam Hussein was an eminent threat to the US. So you think our senators and representatives do not stand up for what they think is best for our country? If they "flip flop," they should be held accountable for that in their next election effort. If we continue to vote them in... so be it.

 

Hitler being an elected official in a democratic country is what put Germany in the position to be held accountable and responsible for their decisions they make. When a person hijacks a country by brute force and holds the people hostage under his forceful rule while his bulldogs hide amongst innocent people, then it is more difficult to hold the whole country responsible for a madman's actions.

 

Edit to rephrase:

Amanda, Who assisted greatly to put Saddam Hussein in Power?

[Vigile]

So you think our senators and representatives do not stand up for what they think is best for our country?

 

Ah, Amanda, you really are naive if you think that they are your protectors. No, they stand up for what is best for their own political asses. Exceptions to this rule would never make it through the guantlet it takes to get where they got in the first place.

 

Hitler being an elected official in a democratic country is what put Germany in the position to be held accountable and responsible for their decisions they make.

 

I have no problem with that.

 

 

I have to assume my government officials know more than me, and further they want to preside as a benevolent entity in the world.

 

then you have an irrational faith in your government and it is not a healthy place to stay. It's not even very American when the ideals of what we were all taught "America" is is taken into account.

 

Why oil? Are we stealing it for free? Are they giving it to us for free? We have other countries that are willing to sell us oil. We just want those resources to go to the people of that country... not to terrorist that hide behind innocent people.

 

What, was I absent the day that the new Iraqi government nationalized their oil? No, the contracts have already been handed out to those corporations that have close ties to the admin. A tiny amount of the procedes might trickle into the Iraqi economy.

 

Pressure of reason?

 

No, they were fed lies via Powell's testimony. This has since been proved. In addition, some members of the security council who had a veto abstained from the vote. We can only reason that they did so based on US pressures since it was in their own country's best interest to not sanction and not invade. The UN is just a political organization. Political comprimise takes place there as much as it does in our own Congress.

[Vigile]

That last quoted article sounds like it could have come from a Soviet era newspaper about the US supporting the mujahadeen in Afgahnhistan when the Soviets invaded there.

 

Uh, actually the US did.

[Vixentrox]

I know, that's what I meant. The US acted just like Iran is accused of doing now.

[Vigile]

Oh, ok. I understand now.

 

I'm a little bit slow.

[Amanda]

Edit to rephrase:

Amanda, Who assisted greatly to put Saddam Hussein in Power?

Japedo, I thought that after Saddam Hussein got out of prison, he was involved in a bloodless coup that took over the country. He then worked his way up the ranks, initially doing some rather impressive things for Iraq. I've heard he changed the country from being 90% illiterate to being 90% literate, and improved their economy greatly. Working his way up the ladder quickly, he soon became the leader... basically because the other ones were too old, so effectively by default.

 

The people of his country really liked him till... he became president. IMO, he became paranoid that someone was going to attempt a coup on him. Very soon after he became president he rounded up about 70 people and had them executed for not being loyal to him. Yep... that clearly made a statement. Then you know the ol' saying, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

He must have been an incredible military leader because I watched him on TV take over Kuait without hurting anyone until he had completely seized the whole country! I watched the whole thing, and Kuait didn't even defend themselves or ask for help till they were completely captured! Amazing!

 

If the US helped him in his rise through the ranks, I can see why he seemed like he would be a good guy then. Everyone liked him once upon a time, even his own people. Also, I remember when we were friends with Iran. I went to a state college with a lot of Iranian students here in Florida. Now it seems like someone is in power there that is completely different, and considers us the infidels. It seems some people just will not be happy till the whole world is fanatical Muslims. So, here we are.

 

Yes, I know... it seems like they are following the Christian tactics for their rise to be the dominating presence. So, just because the west did it, does that mean we have to let them do it now? Gosh, the Buddhists seem to be the only ones that don't start wars or evangelize FORCEFULLY.

 

BTW... I know the US is far from perfect, but no one here ever offered an alternative solution to the problem of them hating infidels and wanting to do away with us. I guess everyone here is happy to pull out of there and let what ever happens, happen? Do we wait till it comes here before we decide to take action? IDK... just curious as to what plans do we migrate to if we were to just raise the white flag to the terrorists and go home?

[Vixentrox]

He took over Kuwait without hurting people? Where did you learn that nonsense? Here's an alternitive solution to help them stop hating us. Get out of Saudia Arabia and let Isreal stand on her own. Isreal isnt our friend.

[Vigile]

Get out of Saudia Arabia and let Isreal stand on her own. Isreal isnt our friend.

 

Amen Sister!

 

And Amanda, not only did the US help him, we armed him and the Iraqi army in the multi year war against Iran. And who do you think gave him the illegal gas he used on the Kurds that made him such an evil guy in the American mind? None other than daddy Bush and the CIA crew.

 

And for Iran, who do you think created the political vacuum in the country that caused such a backlash that Khomeni was elected sending Iran into a reactionary tailspin towards a theocracy? If you guess the US. Bingo! Right again. It was the US who propped up the Shah, who was eventually overthrown.

 

Just blaming Islam for all the evils of the middle east is ignorant and naive. The west has been creating political instability in the region for centuries. The later half of the 20th century can be laid at the feet of the CIA.

 

They don't hate us because they hate freedom or our religion. As Vixentrox points out, they hate us for screwing up their region so horribly and for our support of Israel.

 

Thier hate is justified.

[Amanda]

He took over Kuwait without hurting people? Where did you learn that nonsense?

Vexentrox, as I watched it on TV, he did not encounter any resistance until he had virtually taken over the whole country! It happened so fast! Then after he had seized Kuait, then it seems his militants started looting and hurting people... however, as my memory serves me, I don't think that it was Saddam's intentions for much of this to happen... then again, maybe it was.

Here's an alternitive solution to help them stop hating us. Get out of Saudia Arabia and let Isreal stand on her own. Isreal isnt our friend.

You mean, get out of Iraq, right? Further, I don't think Israel has any involvement in us being there. Sure, Israel seems to be our ally... especially since we have such a stong Jewish presnece in this country. I'd like to think we could be freinds with everyone, instead of having to choose sides. That seems rather juvenile to me. If we're friends with Israel... they're not going to like us?

[Amanda]

Just blaming Islam for all the evils of the middle east is ignorant and naive. The west has been creating political instability in the region for centuries.

 

Vigile Del Fuoco 1, it seems to me that the Middle East has been unstable for millenias... way before the US was even discovered!

 

And no... I don't blame Islam for all the evils of the ME. I actually think the core values of the typical Islamic person is probably very peaceful. I have met some amazing Islamic people of the utmost integrity, and they seem to want peace as much as the rest of us here.

 

There seems to be serious propaganda against us, much like the Christians against other groups in the past, that makes us expendable... to put it mildly. Did you see the CNN show by Glen Beck about it in the ME? I was only able to watch a few minutes of it... and I think you'd be surprised at the ME mass media encouraging anti-west positions. Some of it can be found

. I don't have sound on my computer, however, I'm sure this is basically some of the same stuff I watched on his show.

[Vixentrox]

No, I absolutely mean get out of Saudi Arabia...along with Iraq. Iraq is a given. Part of the reason why the muslims have so much contention with the US is we are in Saudia Arabia.

[Japedo]

BTW... I know the US is far from perfect, but no one here ever offered an alternative solution to the problem of them hating infidels and wanting to do away with us. I guess everyone here is happy to pull out of there and let what ever happens, happen? Do we wait till it comes here before we decide to take action? IDK... just curious as to what plans do we migrate to if we were to just raise the white flag to the terrorists and go home?

 

Saddam was a modern day street thug until the US (CIA) Trained and anointed him as Leader. He did dastardly deeds before even holding power so the excuse that the US believed him good doesn't hold water. The US was one of the main reasons Saddam was there in the first place, what makes you think the people of Iraq want us to anoint them another leader?

 

Again I'm going to stress they don't hate us for being infidels, they hate us for forcing US policy on them and having bases built on their holy land in Saudi Arabia. Why do you think it's the United states Job to dictate policies and governments across the globe?

[Vigile]

Vigile Del Fuoco 1, it seems to me that the Middle East has been unstable for millenias... way before the US was even discovered!

 

That's not exactly a true statement, but even if it were, does that justify the fact that the US is now and has been for decades the major destabilizing force?

[Amanda]

No, I absolutely mean get out of Saudi Arabia...along with Iraq. Iraq is a given. Part of the reason why the muslims have so much contention with the US is we are in Saudia Arabia.

Vixentron, if the Saudi government didn't want us in their country... we wouldn't be there! I was married to an Arab, and there's nothing Mickey Mouse about them. Never underestimate them, as they are some very shrewd businessmen. Having said that, visiting each other and exchanging cultural ideas are positive steps for world harmony, IMO. Some say we are using them, some say they are using us... however, I think we are scratching each others' back.

 

Saddam was a modern day street thug until the US (CIA) Trained and anointed him as Leader. He did dastardly deeds before even holding power so the excuse that the US believed him good doesn't hold water. The US was one of the main reasons Saddam was there in the first place, what makes you think the people of Iraq want us to anoint them another leader?

Japedo, it says here:

 

Saddam established and controlled the "National Campaign for the Eradication of Illiteracy" and the campaign for "Compulsory Free Education in Iraq," and largely under his auspices, the government established universal free schooling up to the highest education levels; hundreds of thousands learned to read in the years following the initiation of the program. The government also supported families of soldiers, granted free hospitalization to everyone, and gave subsidies to farmers. Iraq created one of the most modernized public-health systems in the Middle East, earning Saddam an award from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO).[16][17]

 

And we didn't anoint them their new leader. These people of that country voted him into office, and it is NOT who we would have liked in there. However, that is NOT the point. The issue is that there is a government established with which the people are alligned, so that the country can then be held accountable and responsible for their actions.

 

That's not exactly a true statement, but even if it were, does that justify the fact that the US is now and has been for decades the major destabilizing force?

 

Vigile Del Fuoco 1, did you know that we are rather friendly with a lot of the ME goverments? Syria and Pakistan actually helped us capture our offending terrorists in their country. Saudi Arabia is having their own problems fighting terrorism, as I saw on CNN last night. It seems we have a healthy rapport with most of the ME government... like I said, no one jumped in to help Saddam but the terrorists. Who are we destabilizing?

 

I can understand the frustration in what appears to be the US as the "police" of the world. I'm not so sure that is accurate, yet it sure seems that way sometimes. I think a lot of people immigrate here all the time, and more want to come all the time, yet we can't have everyone move here. Why can't every country's people like living there too? I live and basically grew up in central Florida, and you just don't see many people that are the 'traditional' American any more. It's hard to get work here if you're not at least bilingual. I love immigrants, however, there are so many coming here so fast that lots of people are getting frustrated because we can't assimilate them into society fast enough.

 

Heck, I love living in Florida, yet when I retire, I'm seriously considering goint to a modest little Spanish country somewhere so that I can enjoy the luxuries the US affords most of the other countries without having to endure all this stress. In many regards I can see what many here are saying, I just haven't seen anyone come up with a better plan.

 

Another thing, I just want to say I respect all of you here, even if we have differing opinions. Additionally, it doesn't really matter what my opinion is ultimately, because no one with even the teeniest tiniest influence in the matter knows I exist.

[Vixentrox]

Amanda, you are confusing the Saudi government...IE...the Royal Family, with the rest of the muslims in the middle east. And speaking of those wonderful Saudi's, what nationality were the 9/11 hijackers and Osam bin Laden again?

 

Why didnt we invade Pakistan when they were developing nukes? Dont even attempt to claim it was a secret. 20 years ago when I was in school our social studies class played a national politics game where teams of students represented the governments of many nations. Pakistan was one of them and even then it was assumed that Pakistan and India were on the verge of becoming nuclear powers.