Peanut Gallery: Disallusioned With The American Me Presence?

[Grandpa Harley]

Addendum - on grammar, I'd suggest answering a question with a question simply implies you don't have an answer...

Grandpa Harley... why am I NOT surprised at this remark from you? Considering my long posts on this thread addressing that very subject... this statement merely shows your jab and dodge techniques. It's easy to do on an internet forum, however, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't hide amongst the weak, vulnerable, or hospitalized... but one never knows. My vote goes to you sticking to grammar instead of logic/deduction... as your post reflects you just don't seem to pay long term attention enough to do the latter.

 

No Amanda darling, I just find playing dodge ball with the same old shit pumped out by Zombies drains my will to live.

 

I've yet to see an answer that actually makes much sense out of the Zombie flange you seem to be a member of, and thus, the only common ground we have is grammar.

 

I'd certainly not accuse you of being able to think worth squat...

 

what do you mean by the red bit?

[Grandpa Harley]

Talked via satphone to a contractor bud in Iraq today. He can't say specifically where, but he and Team are knees deep in warm body parts and blood as they provide Combat Medical Services to various contractees.

 

Yeah, he and Teams are armed, well armed.

(I'd be there if these fuckin' kidneys hadn't failed, moeny offered after a year and a half, three tours, would have paid off ALL my consumer debts..)

 

Anyway, the mess the Allies have left has done little to do shit to help anyone up to a few moments ago to do anything for anyones living standards.

 

Injured and dying of every side still continue to swamp their little three Doctor, five Nurse, 20-odd Paramed, 50 or so EMT grade medic sandbag and tin roof clinics. Think "MASH" but with weapons and rules of engagement that allow them to defend themselves with vigor..

Cut short of supplies, not allowed to practice medicine in brick and mortar Hospitals and clinics, and not recognised by any of the various sides, governments or factions. Crazy fuckers are out there doing what they can with as little concealment as posible.

 

Seems that the *natives* have not shot them up or bombed the 'infidels' due in part to the almost total drain of local medical professionals. Either murdered in ethnic shit, or just left to a place where shit isn't so *boomable*.

 

My bud, his M-16 and assorted other men and a few women are the last hope of hundreds if not thousands of people who have no place to flee, or ability to do so.

All this shit done on donations and provenence of little town fuckers like the 5th St BBQ Cooking Society and Milita sending gift boxes of what we can score here in Land of Big PX. Multiply that by the various places and persons paying for this shit out of pocket, and not from UnkaSham, in a few hundreds, this is what "Free Enterprise" is doing.

 

uS and UK residents, it is PAST FUCKING TIME to be demanding of your elected public servants "WHERE IS THE FUCKING MONEY GOING?" It, the coin we're bleeding, sure isn't going to repairing the hurts and injuries of the people of Iraq and Afghanistan after shit gets blown to phukk 'n back..

 

Nothing good is going to come from Iraq folks. We're in the hole, where our callous and calculating Admin put us, for a long haul now. Trickle down economics doesn't exist in Iraq, there seems to be no money for *the little people* we allegedly went in to 'help'.

 

Do the fuckin' math, and follow the money trails. See who is benefitting from this Occidental clusterfuck.

 

Do the homework, and find that this once rabid right wing, "Regan can do no wrong" Republican woke up...

 

k, wishing this church hadn't opened, FL

 

Godammit, K, I don't agree with you often, but hell, when you're right, you're right in spades!

[Legion]

Greetings Vigile. I hope that all is well with you there in India. I’ve missed talking with you.

 

I think before we address the specifics of this war in Iraq we probably should address war in general. Are you one who objects to war in principle? If so, we are likely not going to progress past that fundamental disagreement. I think war sometimes becomes necessary and unavoidable. If you agree with me in this, then we have to ask ourselves under which circumstances does war become necessary? Then we have to further ask ourselves if the circumstances were met in this particular instance.

 

As you have pointed out though, this is mainly an academic exercise because we are in fact already there. If we were to suddenly withdraw from Iraq then, as you have also pointed out, we will have created a power vacuum and the resulting turmoil would likely be catastrophic for Iraq. We’re committed now whether we like it or not. The real question is, what do we do next?

[Japedo]

Some people get confused by the facts, so they avoid them. Glad to see there are those like you, that still want to see proof.

 

 

Do ya mean like the Facts that there were No WMD's and it was a lie? Or the Facts that Bin Ladin ends up had no connection to Saddam as Bin ladin considered Saddam an "Infidel", And Saddam considered Bin Ladin a religious zealot nutball. Or do you mean like the Facts that the supporters of this war would pull anything out of their ass to support their country right or wrong and ta hell with the bloodshed and ta hell with the truth?

 

I have to completely agree with the posts by Vixentrox, Niv and of course Vigle. All 3 have said it better then I could. Regardless of your long post about reasons, they are moot as it ends up it was all written based on a known lie. Posting the original lie doesn't make it right or any more noble.

 

What about the Huge fact that you keep ignoring about the hijackers AKA Terrorists coming from Saudi Arabia? What about the lack of women's rights there? What about the horrific abuse to the people there? Your double standards and head in the sand about this so called 'righteous war' are noted. The country that has one of the worst human rights records, is where most of the terrorist came from during the attack of 9/11 gets a free pass while the smaller less wealthy countries are being

liberated from justice and peace by an occupying force who's propaganda states otherwise..

 

The desperate attempt to try to convince us all that Iraq is a terrorist hub which is the newest reason why we need to stay the course is ludicrous.

[Legion]

Japedo, what should we do next in Iraq?

[Grandpa Harley]

Some people get confused by the facts, so they avoid them. Glad to see there are those like you, that still want to see proof.

 

 

Do ya mean like the Facts that there were No WMD's and it was a lie? Or the Facts that Bin Ladin ends up had no connection to Saddam as Bin ladin considered Saddam an "Infidel", And Saddam considered Bin Ladin a religious zealot nutball. Or do you mean like the Facts that the supporters of this war would pull anything out of their ass to support their country right or wrong and ta hell with the bloodshed and ta hell with the truth?

 

I have to completely agree with the posts by Vixentrox, Niv and of course Vigle. All 3 have said it better then I could. Regardless of your long post about reasons, they are moot as it ends up it was all written based on a known lie. Posting the original lie doesn't make it right or any more noble.

 

What about the Huge fact that you keep ignoring about the hijackers AKA Terrorists coming from Saudi Arabia? What about the lack of women's rights there? What about the horrific abuse to the people there? Your double standards and head in the sand about this so called 'righteous war' are noted. The country that has one of the worst human rights records, is where most of the terrorist came from during the attack of 9/11 gets a free pass while the smaller less wealthy countries are being

liberated from justice and peace by an occupying force who's propaganda states otherwise..

 

The desperate attempt to try to convince us all that Iraq is a terrorist hub which is the newest reason why we need to stay the course is ludicrous.

With due respect, it is a terrorist hub now...

[Japedo]

Japedo, what should we do next in Iraq?

 

 

 

*Putting on flame resistant clothes before I answer... *....

 

 

"We" shouldn't be there in the first place. We should allow them to fight and struggle their own civil war. I know many don't like that answer but I don't see any other thing realistically that will work. Just as with our Civil war, we worked it out. Why is that such a horrible option?

 

I completely disagree with nation building, I completely disagree with forcing a government on a people that doesn't wish to be ruled by said government. It is their home, let them sort it out.

[Legion]

"We" shouldn't be there in the first place.

I think this is irrelevant.

 

We should allow them to fight and struggle their own civil war. I know many don't like that answer but I don't see any other thing realistically that will work. Just as with our Civil war, we worked it out. Why is that such a horrible option?

 

I completely disagree with nation building, I completely disagree with forcing a government on a people that doesn't wish to be ruled by said government. It is their home, let them sort it out.

So "we" should just pull out? Or maybe we should gaurd their borders for them as they fight it out among themselves. I think that if we withdraw it won't just be civil war. Foreign powers will involve themselves.

[Grandpa Harley]

Japedo, what should we do next in Iraq?

 

 

 

*Putting on flame resistant clothes before I answer... *....

 

 

"We" shouldn't be there in the first place. We should allow them to fight and struggle their own civil war. I know many don't like that answer but I don't see any other thing realistically that will work. Just as with our Civil war, we worked it out. Why is that such a horrible option?

 

I completely disagree with nation building, I completely disagree with forcing a government on a people that doesn't wish to be ruled by said government. It is their home, let them sort it out.

There wasn't a civil war there until 'we' decided there should be... before finishing the bloody job in Afghanistan... You'd think that "we'd" have learned the lessons of history, but no... let's open a second front before winning the first... and NOONE has 'won' in Afghanistan... historically it's a gap on a map, where only the Afghans have ever held sway... and the fact they're armed and trained by 'We' and have lots of other toys left by the Russians didn't help 'winning' there in the first place....

[Japedo]

There wasn't a civil war there until 'we' decided there should be... before finishing the bloody job in Afghanistan... You'd think that "we'd" have learned the lessons of history, but no... let's open a second front before winning the first... and NOONE has 'won' in Afghanistan... historically it's a gap on a map, where only the Afghans have ever held sway... and the fact they're armed and trained by 'We' and have lots of other toys left by the Russians didn't help 'winning' there in the first place....

 

 

You're right, unfortunately we can't change the past, only attempt to fix a wrong. Just like WR pointed out earlier in the thread with Vietnam, it wasn't until we left that they started to prosper. How many more innocent lives are we willing to spend to 'save face'? How many more billions of dollars are we going to need to spend to 'save face' when in the end it's going to be another Vietnam with body counts rising on an hourly basis. The people there have a right to defend their home from an invading force. Many (Not all, maybe not even half) Americans are such hypocrites. They would just as soon kill anyone that attempted to invade our country and install a government. When it's us doing it to someone else we label the residents of said country 'terrorists' and have a better stomach for it, and see nothing wrong with it. The entire situation sickens me.

 

This war is unjust. I'm in the small minority that thinks we should pull out completely.

[Legion]

I'm in the small minority that thinks we should pull out completely.

I think if we do that now we'll have to face even larger problems down the road.

[Japedo]

I'm in the small minority that thinks we should pull out completely.

I think if we do that now we'll have to face even larger problems down the road.

 

 

Such as and in what way?

[Grandpa Harley]

There wasn't a civil war there until 'we' decided there should be... before finishing the bloody job in Afghanistan... You'd think that "we'd" have learned the lessons of history, but no... let's open a second front before winning the first... and NOONE has 'won' in Afghanistan... historically it's a gap on a map, where only the Afghans have ever held sway... and the fact they're armed and trained by 'We' and have lots of other toys left by the Russians didn't help 'winning' there in the first place....

 

 

You're right, unfortunately we can't change the past, only attempt to fix a wrong. Just like WR pointed out earlier in the thread with Viet Nam, it wasn't until we left that they started to prosper. How many more innocent lives are we willing to spend to 'save face'? How many more billions of dollars are we going to need to spend to 'save face' when in the end it's going to be another Vietnam with body counts rising on an hourly basis. The people there have a right to defend their home from an invading force. Many (Not all, maybe not even half) Americans are such hypocrites. They would just as soon kill anyone that attempted to invade our country and install a government. When it's us doing it to someone else we label the residents of said country 'terrorists' and have a better stomach for it, and see nothing wrong with it. The entire situation sickens me.

 

This war is unjust. I'm in the small minority that thinks we should pull out completely.

 

In some respects, pulling out unceremoniously will just result in hell... and unlike VietNam, Iraq does have economic import. It's also a cash cow for numerous interests there *cough*Haliburton*cough* other contracting agencies*cough* There's even the biblical implications of the second most mentioned country in the OT... more than Egypt by a long chalk... all sorts of vested interests, some more logical than others. Viet Nam was JFK's hobby... Iraq is a horse of a different colour... Oil, money, religion... it's like Rick's in Casablanca...

[Japedo]

In some respects, pulling out unceremoniously will just result in hell... and unlike VietNam, Iraq does have economic import. It's also a cash cow for numerous interests there *cough*Haliburton*cough* other contracting agencies*cough* There's even the biblical implications of the second most mentioned country in the OT... more than Egypt by a long chalk... all sorts of vested interests, some more logical than others. Viet Nam was JFK's hobby... Iraq is a horse of a different colour... Oil, money, religion... it's like Rick's in Casablanca...

 

So what do you suggest?

[Legion]

I'm in the small minority that thinks we should pull out completely.

I think if we do that now we'll have to face even larger problems down the road.

Such as and in what way?

I suspect that the result will be not only civil war but a conflict that will expand across the entire Middle East. I think that it may largely be a conflict between Arabs and Persians. It's just a suspicion.

[Japedo]

I suspect that the result will be not only civil war but a conflict that will expand across the entire Middle East. I think that it may largely be a conflict between Arabs and Persians. It's just a suspicion.

 

Do you not see that happening already though? It for the most part is a tribal mentality (at least with governments) over there. Neither will give up the fight for control, us being there is think is furthering fanning the flames.

 

As GH pointed out, look at Afghanistan. Also the US is largely responsible for giving the people of Iraq Saddam to begin with. Why not leave this up to the United Nations and attempt to do things peacefully? Trust me, I'm not a defender of the UN, but I believe they can better fix this problem then United States, as things will be on a vote and the people themselves and surrounding countries will have a little more say.

[Grandpa Harley]

In some respects, pulling out unceremoniously will just result in hell... and unlike VietNam, Iraq does have economic import. It's also a cash cow for numerous interests there *cough*Haliburton*cough* other contracting agencies*cough* There's even the biblical implications of the second most mentioned country in the OT... more than Egypt by a long chalk... all sorts of vested interests, some more logical than others. Viet Nam was JFK's hobby... Iraq is a horse of a different colour... Oil, money, religion... it's like Rick's in Casablanca...

 

So what do you suggest?

 

There's no neat 'suggestion' I can make... The west has to get the hell out... but then the area destabilises, so then they have to go back in (either as 'The Allies of Light' or what ever Bush calls them, NATO, or the UN) to prevent it dragging the planet into an economic hell...

 

To me, it's a rock and a hard place... there are too many variables for a clean solution that doesn't make "us" all monsters... Fight not demons lest ye become a demon, as mad Freddie pointed out (or was that 'Tie your mother down...' I can never remember probably doesn't matter) Meanwhile, people die on the back of the adventuring of a few men...

[Legion]

I just don't know. I'm afraid that I'm not informed enough to really suggest a policy.

[Legion]

Damned if we do and damned if we don't.

[Grandpa Harley]

I hate to say...really...but with the way the factions hate each other in the Middle East, basically draw a perimeter and arm all sides equally and let them kill each other until they are satisfied or they grow weary of war and the United States and the European countries stay out. As far as the oil, make some kind of arrangement and just leave it on a trade basis only and nobody else interferes.......The only way this issue will be solved is by who ever becomes the king of the hill and that will only occur when everyone else is dead....

 

Well, that one ranks with 'Kill them all, God will know his own'... I wondered if some monster would come up with that answer... You've not let me down yet

[Grandpa Harley]

I have a question for you folks from the UK. With Tony Blair soon to leave office, who do you expect to replace him and what do you expect if any in a difference in policy?

 

Gordon Brown and virtually none... New face, same lies....

[Legion]

I do know one thing. I grow weary of those who have no suggestions and plenty of accusations.

[Japedo]

I do know one thing. I grow weary of those who have no suggestions and plenty of accusations.

 

I think sometimes it's hard to come up with suggestions when just about anything will have to be done by force. I understand what you say, but as it's been stated it's a rock and a hard place. I think turning the situation over to the UN would be more feasible, this way everyone will get a say of what happens and we won't be like the dictators we are appearing as right now. There is no easy fix for this sadly.

[Grandpa Harley]

I do know one thing. I grow weary of those who have no suggestions and plenty of accusations.

 

 

Well, who knows, perhaps carpet bombings will finally work this time. The last time some one managed to work was Dresden, and the press was a killer even then.

 

To be honest, Burnedout's solution is probably the only realist one... Wipe out ever motherfucker in the place... it worked for the Romana, and even Islam managed if once. Now, pulling in my personal distaste for 'final solutions', pull all our lads and lasses out and neutron bomb the place... I'm sure there were a few made for just such a contingency... after all the demon never gets back into the box when it comes to weapons. The nature of the beast is such.

 

And what accusation are you meaning? The essential lying venality of or respective governments? Ask our esteemed Senior Moderator abut how trust worthy they are... In fact, prove they WEREN'T lying about WMD, Al Qaida links...

[Vigile]

Hello LR, yes we meet in disagreement again. Nevertheless, let not this fact betray the respect I have for you.

 

Are you one who objects to war in principle?

 

Interesting question. If you had asked me 5 years ago, the answer would be yes, most definately. Now, it's an "I don't know." The reason I answer this way is that while I can certainly imagine a scenario where war might be necessary, I have not yet seen a good example where the US has fought a necessary war. And yes, I'm including the revolution, but these are complicated issues, which demand more time to explore in detail.

 

As you have pointed out though, this is mainly an academic exercise because we are in fact already there.

 

Absolutely. It's an intellectual exercise. I will probably never agree that we had a reasonable motivation for starting it, but now that we are there I'm open about what needs to be done to extract ourselves from the situation.

 

What to do next? Man, this is an area where I have no opinion. I'm sure that surprises a few here since I'm generally so opinionated. Like you said, I agree, we have created a power vacuum and pulling up stakes will leave the ME with a level of instability that I don't think we or the world can easily live with. At a minimum, I don't think we will be able to, nor should we force a government on them the way we did Japan and Germany to a lesser extent. Perhaps they need a Clinton-like Balkan solution where territories are separated and power is shared?