Math Equation: History + Jesus = 0

[Mythra]

First, let me start by saying that I am in awe of some of your brains. Spooky, Neil, Lokmer, Hans, (and many others here) you guys blow me away. Your minds are definitely in tune with a higher vibration than mine. (how's that for some new-age shit)

 

That being said, I gotta say that I really don't give a damn if there is or isn't a God. (Although I find the arguments - what I can understand of them - fascinating)

 

I just wanna make gawdamn sure that there ain't a Jehovah-God that is just lickin his chops waitin to fry my ass in a big underground hibachi.

 

So, I feel that I am being called - no scratch that. I feel that I am being led - FUCKING christian thinking - I find that I am more suited to examine historical shit and bible discrepancies to help convince me.

 

So here goes. First, some quotes from Flavius Josephus (famous Jewish historian) who was a contemporary with Christianity's infancy.

 

Antiquities 18.5.2 116-119

 

"Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and was a very just punishment for what he did against John called the baptist. [the dipper]. For Herod had him killed, although he was a good man and had urged the Jews to exert themselves to virtue, both as to justice toward one another and reverence towards God, and having done so join together in washing. For immersion in water, it was clear to him, could not be used for the forgiveness of sins, but as a sanctification of the body, and only if the sould was already thoroughly pruified by right actions. And when others massed about him, for they were very greatly moved by his words, Herod, who feared that such strong influence over the people might carry to a revolt - for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise - believed it much better to move now than later have it raise a rebellion and engage him in actions he would regret.

 

And so John, out of Herod's suspiciousness, was sent in chains to Machaerus, the fort previously mentioned, and there put to death, but it was the opinion of the Jews that out of retribution for John God willed the destruction of the army so as to afflict Herod."

 

 

(And then there is this from Josephus - Now, stay with me here. I'm goin somewhere with all of this)

 

"When I was about sixteen years old I had a mind to make a trial of the several sects that were among us. There are three of these, that of the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the third that of the Essenes, as we have frequently told you. I thought that being acquainted with them all I could choose the best.

 

So I consigned myself to hardship, and underwent great difficulties, and went through them all. Nor did I content myself with the trying of these three only, for when I was informed that one whose name was Banus lived in the desert, and used on other clothing than what grew upon trees, and had no other food that what grew of its own accord, and bathed himself in cold water frequently, both night and day, to purify himself, I imitated him in those things, and continued with him three years"

 

O.K. here is my point. John the Baptist was a real historical guy. Josephus makes that pretty clear in the details that are given in his account.

 

Josephus was also a "seeker" of spiritual things. He makes that pretty clear in his account. I mean, he followed some dude named Banus for THREE freakin years in the desert. What does that tell ya?

 

In the writings of Josephus, there is a single passage about Jesus. But even a gomer like me can figure out that it's a later interpolation by a puke.

 

So, my conclusions: . What do you think are the chances that Josephus (in his entire lifetime) would have never heard about a dude named Jesus who fed 5,000 people with one chunk of bread, raised the dead, healed paralytics, and did all of the other miracles in the Bible. (and this all during a time when the Bible says that everyone in Judea knew about these happenings)

 

And yet, he knew all about John the Baptist?

 

This is starting to develop an odor. Spiritual growth is (pardon the cliche) AWESOME

 

 

 

[Celsus]

Mythra,

 

I would posit that Josephus' failure to discuss Jesus/Yeshua is a stinging indictment from silence as to Christian claims. It is clear that historically what we would term as proto-Christians existed when Josephus did, during the latter first century of the common era. However, even by the time of Josephus, the majority of proto-Christians did not live in Judea, but lived in many diverse communities, just like the Jews did. It is also pertninent to address the failure of Philo of Alexandria and other historians who were living in the Judean area of the early to mid first century to also mention jesus/Yeshua or Christianity. At this stage, history shows that proto-Christianity was not a singular belief system, but had various teachings, which were all apocalyptic. In brief these were:

 

1. Jewish Christianity (Essenes/Ebionites) - which was made up of Jewish believer and converts had to also follow Jewish law. The surviving documents by and about them show that they did not consider Jesus/Yeshua to be divine, but an annointed person, like other Jewish mosiachs. These tended to teach an immanent end of the world system and the advent of the Kingdom of God.

 

2. Gnostic Christians - These typically believed that Yahweh was not the high God of the universe, but was a deluded and flawed being who created a flawed material universe where beings with the divine spark of the true high God of the universe in them were trapped (humans). They taught that knowledge was found inside and that the material universe was all evil or flawed and that only by denying the physical can a person obtain gnosis (knowledge). Jesus/Yeshua was thought of as a very good man, in whom the Christ spirit had taken up residence (as signified by the dove descending when he was baptised) and brought this gnosis (knowledge) to those who sought it.

 

3. Proto-Orthodox Christians - these were the Christian who eventually emerged as the main Christian churches and seem to have harmonized the various beliefs.

 

It is interesting to note that none of the early Christian documents discuss in any detail the supposed historical aspects of the life of Jesus/Yeshua. The earliest Christian writings, generally thought to be the authentic Pauline writings and some of the Apocrypha do not discuss the historical life of Jesus/Yeshua. Rather he is talked about as one who lived at some point in the past and what he taught is never detailed. it is only when proto-orthodox Christianity is competing with other mystery religions and other versions of proto-Christianity, that the historical stories are developed. These gospels attempted to place Jesus/Yeshua in a specific place and time, becuase this would seem to establish that Christianity was not just a mystery revelation, but based upon a real person. None of the gospels, either the connonical or the apocryphal ones, were written by Jewish/Palestinian believers, but were written by Greek speaking believers up to a century after the supposed life of Jesus. It is theorized that these all were based upon oral traditions and a probable early common document(s).

 

While there may have been a person that the Jesus Christ of Christianity is based upon, it is clear that he was not an important figure when he lived and that the stories about him and his deeds are later ancient urban legends. In summation, the silence of history is damning to the claims of Christianity, regardless of the various sectional versions of it. Jesus appears in history as a mythological being like Hercules, because that is exactly what he is.

 

Bruce

[Ouroboros]

(I posted my response this morning, but somehow it got lost.

Maybe it's in another thread now, and totally confuses everybody.

 

First, let me start by saying that I am in awe of some of your brains.  Spooky, Neil, Lokmer, Hans, (and many others here)  you guys blow me away.  Your minds are definitely in tune with a higher vibration than mine.  (how's that for some new-age shit)

First of all Mythra, I’m extremely honored that you would put me in the same sentence as Spooky, Neil and Lokmer. I really don’t feel I deserve a place like that, so thanks.

And I think you have an inquisitive and intriguing mind, and you should not consider your skills less worthy.

 

That being said, I gotta say that I really don't give a damn if there is or isn't a God.  (Although I find the arguments - what I can understand of them - fascinating)

 

I just wanna make gawdamn sure that there ain't a Jehovah-God that is just lickin his chops waitin to fry my ass in a big underground hibachi.

I like hibachi. BBQ is yummy. I hope to get to the big BBQ. Hmmm Taste like Chicken.

 

So, my conclusions: .  What do you think are the chances that Josephus (in his entire lifetime) would have never heard about a dude named Jesus who fed 5,000 people with one chunk of bread, raised the dead, healed paralytics, and did all of the other miracles in the Bible.  (and this all during a time when the Bible says that everyone in Judea knew about these happenings)

 

And yet, he knew all about John the Baptist?

 

This is starting to develop an odor.  Spiritual growth is (pardon the cliche) AWESOME

You have obviously read more from these guys, but even if I haven’t, I believe you’re absolutely right.

 

I know about the passage where supposedly Josephus writes about Jesus, and my take on that part was that, if Josephus could write that Jesus was the Christ, which is ‘the anointed one’, very much like Neo in the matrix, the chosen one, if Josephus can write that, then he must have been a believer. But then if he was a believer he wouldn’t have been so silent about his belief. Just look at the fundies that just can’t keep their yappers shut! Someone who believes is very outspoken about what their faith. Look at me, I talk and write all the time about my beliefs.

 

So it’s clear that J. didn’t know about the big J. which is very surprising, considering Jebuz made miracles of extraordinary sizes. I mean, walk the streets and heal all sick, thousands of people, wouldn’t that at least be noticed and written down in Roman history books. I surely would think so. And compare it to small events that got written down over and over again, why would the big things be forgotten?

 

The comparison would be like everyone would write articles and news stories about Dubya picking his nose, while the Iraqi war wouldn’t get one single line. And that is not happening, is it? So if thousands of pigs get demon possessed and runs for tens of miles to get to a cliff to throw themselves off, wouldn’t that get into at least few secular books other than the converts?

[Mythra]

Bruce and Hans - thanks for the responses. This is giving me lots to think about. But don't tell me too much more. I don't want it to spoil the ending.

[- AUB -]

Bruce

 

The best summation on argument from silence issue I've ever read. Great to see so many taking mythicism seriously.