Struggling With It...

[Guest Vetch]

Hi all,

 

I guess I came here because reading through the forums, I've seen how much strength people radiate; not just the passion of the arguing and the no-nonsense attitude, but because people have dealt so adroitly with the destructive chapter of Christianity in their lives. I think to move on I need to develop that same tough skin. The old fears brainwashed into me by sixteen years of Christianity don't keep me awake at night, but they are unpleasantly inside still, despite best efforts to rout them out. I don't want to be angry with Christians, because some of my classmates and friends are, but I find it difficult to explain why my current religion is like wearing the right-size shoes after years and years of wearing ones three sizes too small, restrictive and terrorising, and what it did to my head. How can I deprogram, surrounded by people that want to convert me?

 

Vetch

[Japedo]

How can I deprogram, surrounded by people that want to convert me?

 

Vetch

 

Welcome to Ex-C Vetch!

 

I think the best thing that can help you, is looking for answers using common sense and history. As with everything, education is the biggest tool. Each story in the bible, Each thing you're told find answers. It has taken some of us years to deprogram and some are still not fully deprogrammed. Each person has their own road. Fear is the cults number one way to keep people uneducated, it always has been.

 

I think some of the first things you can do to assist yourself are identify how people witness and be prepared to stump them and toss questions at them that will force them to face the ugly reality of their cult. They usually do this thru means of fear such as hell or being abandoned. (Left behind).

 

Hell is a pagan concept and the idea of such was adopted by Christianity, (as was 99% of the Christian stories). Once one knows the origins of such things (Research Hades and the underworld for example) Fear no longer has a power over you and you become less susceptible to superstition nonsense. Hell no more exists then does Zeus or the Easter bunny. There are many many people here who can assist you with difficult questions, be a sounding board and so on. You will have to seek out your own answers however, as truth doesn't come easy.

 

Seeking out "gods" so called justice and how lopsided it is, was one way to clear away cobwebs and confusion of buybull speak. Two quick examples:

 

1) Sodom and Gomorrah: The Christian Version: God saves Lot and his daughters from perverts and sexual deviants. Lot and Family is considered Righteous in gods eyes in a sea of sexual perversion and sin.

 

The Real Version in the buybull: The oh so righteous lot offers his daughters to a mad crowed to be raped to save two strangers. (This is Just?) Instead the strangers aka Angles blind the perverts. Second, God tells lot and family that the cities will be destroyed by the wrath of god because of their sex sins of lust and so forth. The wife turns to a pillar of salt because she dared to turn around and looked upon god. Lot and Daughters find a cave and what happens in the cave? Lot has out of marriage sex with his own daughters and plants his seed, providing himself with sons/grandsons. This is somehow "Righteous". Of course the buybull version also blames the harlot daughters for getting their dad drunk and seducing him, It paints them as whores, even still god still saved them for being righteous, and also allowed them to bare lots other children. Since when does having to much wine stand as an excuse for sex crimes? If it doesn't hold in a lowly human court, it shouldn't hold in an all powerful Just gods.

 

Crux of the story?: God destroys men women and children for being unrighteous due to sex acts. God saves a family who commits serious sex acts that in a court of law the father would be jailed. Justice? Fairness? Where?

 

 

2) Pharaoh and the Egyptian plagues. Christian Version: The evil pharaoh refuses to let the Israelites go. God sends plagues to Egypt to prove he is the God of all gods until the Jews are free.

 

Real version in the Buybull. The Pharaoh has zero free will, is merely a puppet on the string of gawd. God hardened Pharaoh's heart (Ex 9:7, 10:20) If you'll notice in reading the story. God hardens pharos heart and forces him to defy gods very direction. Because Pharaoh in just a mere man and no match for god, the people are killed and suffer in Egypt by no reason or power but by gods own warped sense of tribal mindset.

 

 

I could go on and on with endless examples but this will suffice for now. I'm not real sure what types of things you're looking for. Best of luck to you on your search for answers though!

[Garnet]

Something that helped me. Read, read, read. And when you're done reading, read some more. Here's a website that helped me a lot. http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/

[Brother Jeff]

Something that helped me. Read, read, read. And when you're done reading, read some more. Here's a website that helped me a lot. http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/

 

That is an excellent site! Also please feel free to browse my glorious site at:

 

http://www.christianityisbullshit.com

 

Glory!

[Thurisaz]

Hi Vetch, greetings from Germany

 

Not much to add here, except perhaps that wonderful site:

 

www.jesusneverexisted.com

 

Have fun, and stick it to those braindead morontheists reaal good

[R. S. Martin]

Hi Vetch. I see you ask how to get the ideas out. I'm not sure if you mean how to get the ideas out of your own head, or perhaps you mean how to get the ideas out to your Christian friends and family. If you are like me, you will want to share the wonderful good news you discovered. I am finding they don't want to know this good news. They somehow think they are in a position to judge that these "good ideas" are straight from the devil.

 

This raises the question: Who or what is the "devil"? Normally we mean Satan when we say "the devil" but where does that idea come from? The Bible says he was the highest among the angels at one time. This is acknowledged in the New Testament. Jesus acknowledges it when he says "I saw Satan fall as lightening" and that Satan was "the son of the morning." I'm just quoting off the top of my head and might not have it quite right but you probably know the passage I'm referring to.

 

How to convince the Christians? It just doesn't happen. I thought Hurricane Katrina would have an effect but it didn't. The fundies who got out believed God delivered them because of a special favour. I read one story of a man who had committed to working at a hospital for a certain length of time. But he never went to work the last day. As things turned out, if he had gone to work that last day he would have been stranded in New Orleans along with the many others who didn't get out.

 

He thought this was god's deliverance. It looks awfully suspicious to me. He broke a contract. He was irresponsible. By making those kinds of statements he is by default saying that the people who did go in to work, that whoever worked double duty or somehow covered for him, was a sinner who deserved to die. That just doesn't wash! These sick people needed to be cared for. A ship's captain is supposed to be the last to leave the sinking vessel. A captain who crowds onto a lifeboat before others is not well thought of. I don't know what I would have done in his position; I just know that I admire the people who stayed to work their shifts whether religious or not.

[R. S. Martin]

I forgot to address the question on how to get the Christian ideas out of your own head. First of all, I think it's important to accept that they are there. I'm not a therapist but I have some personal experience in retraining the mind. I don't know if we can ever be completely successful but I think we can get to the point where these ideas no longer have the power to rule the roost, so to speak. One trick worth trying is to replace an unwanted thought with a thought that is desired every time the unwanted thought comes crowding in. I think one of the worst things we can probably do is deny the existence of these thoughts, because if we do they go underground and wreak havoc by acting out in not-so-noble ways. That's just my personal opinion for what it's worth.

[Guest Vetch]

I forgot to address the question on how to get the Christian ideas out of your own head. First of all, I think it's important to accept that they are there. I'm not a therapist but I have some personal experience in retraining the mind. I don't know if we can ever be completely successful but I think we can get to the point where these ideas no longer have the power to rule the roost, so to speak. One trick worth trying is to replace an unwanted thought with a thought that is desired every time the unwanted thought comes crowding in. I think one of the worst things we can probably do is deny the existence of these thoughts, because if we do they go underground and wreak havoc by acting out in not-so-noble ways. That's just my personal opinion for what it's worth.

[XCCC]

Hi Vetch,

 

I'm new to the group also but left my faith years ago. One book that was really enlightening (and validated with actual facts what I always suspected) is Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus." He's written a number of books--I also enjoyed "Lost Christianities" but that one is a little more dry. Ehrman is a textual scholar and was a former evangelical. He lost his faith studying the origins and history of the new testament.

[R. S. Martin]

Vetch, are you having problems navigating the software of this site? I see you copied my one post but did not add any of your own thoughts. To add your own thoughts, just scroll down below the last "" and type your thoughts, then hit "add reply." That way readers will know what you are replying to, and also what your thoughts are. This enables further discussion. If you look around a bit I am sure you will get the idea.

[Robbobrob]

VTech, as a new member myself, I can honestly say this site has helped me a great deal sort out all the thoughts within my head concerning religion. At the beginning of the month I was still clinging to the idea that there is a nominal divinity, and calling myself a Theist. Today I am much more inclined to add the "A" to theist. As I have learned more about what religion has done to these great people here, and the intelligence gathered here that religion was willing to throw away, it has helped me collect my thoughts and really scrutinize what makes sense, and what makes nonsense.

 

I still have so much to sort out in my head, and I was not indoctrinated into the hardcore faith like some here were. I can't imagine how difficult it has been for them, only knowing how difficult it has been for me, even though I was nominally a theist to begin with.

[Guest Vetch]

*grins* It's okay, my school computer system chops off posts in the middle; sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, and on this occasion it decided to filter the site out just as I was trying to post, damn it. Thanks for your advice, RubySera, Thurisaz, Japedo, and everybody else who replied. I'll definitely check out those websites!

 

There are several wannabe evangelists who want "to talk" with me; my sister's youth leader, a person in her class, another in my year. It's quite difficult to cope with when you don't know all the answers to your own religion, and I know it's probably a good idea to admit that whilst the brainwashing isn't as strong in my head anymore (doesn't keep me awake at night), somebody trying hard has a tiny chance of terrifying me back into a pew. Not that I ever went a bundle on church, but still. I want to try and get the Pagan community to teach counter-evangelism to help people deal with these nutters.

 

Do you think it's easier to argue with evangelists as a theist, or an atheist? After all, theists at least have common ground for the Christians to jump on and stamp all over.

[Garnet]

I don't think it's ever easy to argue with an evangelist. They simply are not interested in anything that you have to say that is contrary to their script.

[Guest Vetch]

That's why I started looking at their "witnessing strategies". Best to head 'em off before they start, if you can recite the verses you reckon they'll sling at you. It's not like it's anything more than delusion.

[Llwellyn]

We, more than anybody else, see how Christianity operates as a "thought virus," colonizing new minds with superstition and fear. The Christian worldview, imprecise and dissonant as it is, was functioning as the "operating system" on your computer. At the heart of the Christian mind virus is this idea of God's hellish punishment.

 

In my case, in order to run a "virus remover" from my cognitive hardware, I really needed to find a substitute worldview that would continually scrub the inside of my brain of the Christian crap. The substitute worldview that I found is Platonism. It specifically addresses the fear of God's wrath by teaching that divine retribution is a corrective punishment rather than a form of malicious vengeance.

 

It works for me.

[Garnet]

That's why I started looking at their "witnessing strategies". Best to head 'em off before they start, if you can recite the verses you reckon they'll sling at you. It's not like it's anything more than delusion.

 

*chuckle* Well, my strategy of late is to avoid the assholes all together. My blood pressure is much better as a result.

[Lycorth]

I don't want to be angry with Christians, because some of my classmates and friends are, but I find it difficult to explain why my current religion is like wearing the right-size shoes after years and years of wearing ones three sizes too small, restrictive and terrorising, and what it did to my head. How can I deprogram, surrounded by people that want to convert me?

 

Hanging in there is key. You know Xianity is shit, a terrible cult that preaches a variety of hatreds and the insidious notion that one must please a god or else be tortured eternally. Keeping these things in mind, as well as all the basics of good anti-Xian criticism, will help you stay the course. It's easy to get sucked back into a deathcult like Xianity, given the fears it instills, but those fears can be un-instilled with enough human courage and wisdom.

 

You don't have to hate Xians, unless they do wicked shit in the name of their cult, but unleash all your hate on Xianity. It deserves no less, even if the deaths of millions throughout history were not on Jebus' imaginary head. Things like that help you stay true to the free path.

 

Sometime ago, I put up a website, basically for my own amusement and to gather together things I find of interest. Anti-Xian criticism is one such thing, so here is a link to my online ex-testimony and at the bottom of the page there is a link to a page that contains yet more links, to websites with very useful anti-xian information. I hope they serve you as well as they did me

 

Hang in there, bro

[R. S. Martin]

*chuckle* Well, my strategy of late is to avoid the assholes all together. My blood pressure is much better as a result.

 

That sounds like an excellent idea. I can't avoid the people but I can perhaps avoid talking religion with the wrong people.

 

From things my landlady has said I think perhaps she heard from someone else about my deconversion. She goes to church every Sunday and we agreed before I moved in that we would not aim to be friends, even though we're close enough in age to make it reasonable. We do share things with each other once in a while but we've never discussed religion in any depth, except for the way my sibs treated me around mom's funeral.

 

Recently, she mentioned a person who was atheist for a while, who then eventually figured out what Christian church he wanted to go to. That may have been an invitation for me to open up about my own position. I have never felt comfortable doing so. Nor has the need arisen and I don't see why it should if she is comfortable having me here.

 

She's not the only one who has suggested that it's just a stage I'm going through. I figure so long as they accept me as a decent human being I am not going to argue their point. I very seriously doubt that it's just a stage because I have given so much very deep thought to it over a course of many decades. I don't know all the answers and I never will. However, it's time to come to some sort of conclusion so I can move on in life. I can even enjoy church now that I am no longer so desperate for answers. I am quite sure that I believe in god every bit as much as a lot of Christians do. They just don't want to think it through on such a deep level and they want to fit in, so they just decide to believe whatever they're told....

 

I'm not sure if any of this story contributes to your questions, Vetech. I'm thinking perhaps it will but I'm not sure.

[Eric_PK]

Hi all,

 

I guess I came here because reading through the forums, I've seen how much strength people radiate; not just the passion of the arguing and the no-nonsense attitude, but because people have dealt so adroitly with the destructive chapter of Christianity in their lives. I think to move on I need to develop that same tough skin. The old fears brainwashed into me by sixteen years of Christianity don't keep me awake at night, but they are unpleasantly inside still, despite best efforts to rout them out. I don't want to be angry with Christians, because some of my classmates and friends are, but I find it difficult to explain why my current religion is like wearing the right-size shoes after years and years of wearing ones three sizes too small, restrictive and terrorising, and what it did to my head. How can I deprogram, surrounded by people that want to convert me?

 

Vetch

 

Vetch,

 

If you're like most ex-christians, you were brainwashed - and I don't use that term lightly - into specific beliefs. Your religious beliefs didn't come from study or introspection, but were introduced beneath your rationality, as it were.

 

That makes them difficult to counter through rational thought - just as you can't tell yourself not to think about yellow elephants, you can't tell yourself not to be afraid. So don't feel bad that you're "weak" - you've made the first step, but it's a big step and it's going to take a while for everything inside you to settle down.

 

Virtually everybody here has gone through the same journey that you are on. In my case, reading a lot helped, as did really exploring the arguments that christians use and realizing just how bad they were. Over time, the fear will fade.

[Legion]

Hey there Vetch. Welcome to Ex-C.

 

Something that helped me. Read, read, read. And when you're done reading, read some more.

I think Garnet has offered some good advice here. Another that I can offer is to give yourself plenty of time. I think it takes a while to depressurize from the whole thing. There is no need to expect yourself to accomplish it overnight in my opinion.

 

Hang in there.

[Grandpa Harley]

Something that helped me. Read, read, read. And when you're done reading, read some more. Here's a website that helped me a lot. http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/

 

That is an excellent site! Also please feel free to browse my glorious site at:

 

http://www.christianityisbullshit.com

 

Glory!

Is that still up?

[Former Follier]

VETCH:

 

This is going to be a quick reply as I am just about to step out the door to do some materials pricing for an upcoming renovation. I would reccomend not only reading but listening[/]. This works incredibly well for me because I can just listen and listen and listen all day long while I'm at work. It also helps to fend off wannabe evangelists as they walk by my office. You can find some really good free podcasts out there to introduce you to some good material. If you find a particular site you like, subscribe and support their efforts and their entire catalog will be open to you. I would reccomend a few of the following and I'm sure others will be able to expound on this list:

 

www.rationalresponders.com

www.infidelguy.com

www.freethoughtmedia.com

and even www.youtube.com is a good place to find some related videos and reach out to some very strong free-thinkers in our society.

 

I'm not sure what kind of music you like but if you're into hip-hop you should check out Greydon Square at www.thecomptoneffect.com. He's a great free-thinking lyricist and rapper. He has some very, very important content which must be the case I'm endorsing him (I'm a washed up punk rocker).

[Former Follier]

I suck at HTML... sorry you will have to copy and paste those. I'm in too big of a rush to post hyperlinks. Sorry about that.

[Brother Jeff]

Something that helped me. Read, read, read. And when you're done reading, read some more. Here's a website that helped me a lot. http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/

 

That is an excellent site! Also please feel free to browse my glorious site at:

 

http://www.christianityisbullshit.com

 

Glory!

Is that still up?

 

No, it's not.

[Grandpa Harley]

Something that helped me. Read, read, read. And when you're done reading, read some more. Here's a website that helped me a lot. http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/

 

That is an excellent site! Also please feel free to browse my glorious site at:

 

http://www.christianityisbullshit.com

 

Glory!

Is that still up?

 

No, it's not.

shame...