Firearms/self Defense Discussion

[Vigile]

And therein lies the problem.

 

Absolutely agree. Respect for those around you is not kowtowing. Violent crime is much lower in Italia than in the US. After living there I am now under the impression that the reason why is due to respect for others and the fact that Italians are all well policed by their peers. It's far better than behaving just because you are under threat of the government's long arm. A lot classy to, IMO.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Folks...

 

For the sake of definition, care to let me in on what constitutes an "illegal gun"?

 

kFL

GSL!

One that doesn't meet the requirements of being legal, of course.

 

Just kidding.

 

I'd say an illegal gun is one that is NOT registered to a person, ie stolen, not traceable. And aren't some guns illegal, like sawed off shotguns, machineguns, and such? Don't people have to have special permits for concealed weapons? And aren't silencers illegal sometimes too?

 

Jim Bardwell's Firearms Law pages

 

Without using too much in "gungeekisms" there are many places that non-regular guns are restricted or made unholdable by Citizens via political manuverings.

 

Prior to the National Firearms Act of 1934 one could go to the hardware store or gunshop and buy off the rack any kind of arms from all over the world, pay cash and walk. Machineguns, short barreled rifles and shotguns, fighting equipment was totally unrestricted.

 

Bardwells pages will let you find the links to laws to particular States.

 

kL

[Amanda]

IMMATURITY....I don't see how it is immature to have a basic sense of self preservation,

Burned Out, I think the main purpose of a gun seems to differ with each person. Some people think the main purpose is to kill, and some people think the main purpose is to protect. There is a difference, and IMO are NOT the same. A purpose in this case is an individual perspective, and how can someone else tell me what MY purpose is?

 

I can understand a concept, to have something so we don't have to use it. I guess some people think if we have something, we want to use it. Not so in most cases. We all agree that we have to keep guns out of the hands of irresponsible people, we just don't know how to go about that EXACTLY. The people that are irresponsible are those whose purpose is to use them to kill, IMO, and the responsible ones want to use it to protect. Big difference, it seems to me.

 

England has an armed force, with lots of weapons. Are they 'chomping at the bits' to be able to go kill as many people as they can? Tell any country to just throw away all their weapons. After all, they're not all killers are they? Does this mean they have guns to kill, or to have guns to protect? What is their main purpose? Often times just the fact the rest of the world knows we have weapons makes them think twice before they just invade and take over. Japan doesn't have an armed force because they have us, but if they didn't... do you think they'd leave themselves vulnerable? It's just plain smart to be able to ultimately protect ourself appropriately.

 

I think we have weapons to have a balance of power in the world in which we live, to preserve the integrity of our boundaries, and to use force only if we have to do so to protect our family, friends, ourself, and our rights. I hate guns! I don't know if I could shoot someone if I felt my own life was in danger! Heck, I've never even hit someone since I was 6. However, if I felt my son's life was in eminent danger, or my mother's life, or even my next door neighbor's life was in danger, then I don't think I could live with myself if I did not react to do what ever I could to save them. What would be my main purpose? To protect, to protect, to protect... and if I have to kill them to do this, so be it. But my purpose, my intention is to PROTECT.

[Jun]

A culture based on shame is one I would never want to live in. If I was forced to, my middle finger would be heavily used. I don't give a shit if I embarras my elders. I used to tell my parents off regularaly even when I would get my butt kicked by my father as a teenager many years ago. I ALWAYS thought for myself and still do. There were some things I knew was bullshit and it turned out to be bullshit just as I thought. By the way, the only type of guns I would EVER own are unregistered ones.....there are ways to legally obtain them too.......

 

And therein lies the problem.

 

Problem?....What the hell is the problem? As I see it, I am simply thinking for myself. Now...I have no problem with a rule if it makes sense. However, if it puts me at risk uneededly, which taking my gun would, I will find a way to get around, over, burrow under, or destroy any rule that is stupid and needs to be defeated...simply put.

 

 

Yes, we can see. Thinking for yourself, by yourself, all about yourself.

 

I was referring to your childish behaviour and lack of respect, as well as your statement about having unregistered guns - talk about trying to be above the law. It's this type of mentality that worries me about people who are able to get hold of firearms.

 

As Gramps said - "The whole post was just reeking of bragging immaturity. The fact someone that gloating can own a gun bothers me..."

 

 

Hmmm.....you don't seem to believe that thinking for yourself is bad when it comes to someone leaving a religion, yet when someone does not agree with you...then it is a bad thing?... Cmon...either it is good in every case or never good in any case...make up your mind. Also, if Gramps will not answer my question...maybe you can Jun. What woud YOU do if the government or anyone in authority passed a rule or a law requiring something of you that puts you in unnecessary danger? Forget guns, anything. I stated a reason with the Montana ranchers...How about you? What you call immaturity is simply my refusal to be screwed? Don't tell me you think it is OK to screw people...

 

I have no problem with you agreeing or not with me or anyone else - burnedout. My first repsonse was to your apparent attitude to your elders. Your apparent lack of respect. It had nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with anything. Respect for your elders and all others around you is what earns YOU respect. I believe that's basic human morals.

 

I have no problem with you making up your own mind, so should we all - but to think that YOU alone are affected by YOUR decisions is rather short sighted. The decisions we make in life affect everyone else around us, sometimes visibly, sometimes not. Sometimes immediately and directly, sometimes not. Perhaps you didn't intend it, but your initial response appeared to me to be self-centered and selfish.

 

As for your question. If the government of the country in which I reside, were to put forth a rule that puts me in danger?

 

Heck, Australia has plenty of rules that put us in danger everyday. How about the law that states that nobody has the actual right to self-defence? That's right, in Oz you are NOT given the right to self-defence - you are required to escape, run or difuse an encounter. If you do use self-defence, and you inflict damage that is deemed "unreasonable" upon your attacker, it will be you who ends up in the slammer! You may NEVER use a weapon of any sort, unless your attacker has a weapon, and the weapon which you use must be OF EQUAL FORCE! Guns may NOT be used in self-defence, unless the attacker has a gun, and even then you WILL be held accountable.

 

How about basic Human Rights? There is no such law governing Human Rights in Australia. Discrimination is protected by a rather piss-weak law which requires extreme measures of proof.

 

The Australian government is clearly, as you put it, "screwing" Ozzies. But to go against the law, to become a law-breaker, to knowingly and determindly break the laws of the country - is that the right thing to do? I don't think so. Where would you end up then? Would the government see it from your perspective? I doubt it.

 

I can see what you are saying. But I disagree with you. The laws of the land are just that, the laws of the land. As citizens, whether we agree with them or not, we are required to uphold them. To go against the law is to lower yourself to the level of the criminals that the laws are designed to curb.

[Jun]

Japan doesn't have an armed force because they have us

 

Pardon?

 

I train with the JGSDF regularly. What's your idea of "armed force?"

[Jubilant]

I can see what you are saying. But I disagree with you. The laws of the land are just that, the laws of the land. As citizens, whether we agree with them or not, we are required to uphold them. To go against the law is to lower yourself to the level of the criminals that the laws are designed to curb.

 

You've made a very valid point. I'm staying out of it as far as you and Burnedout are concerned but everything else that you say, I completely agree with.

 

What you wrote right there is what my husband and I raise our children to understand. We may not like a lotof laws in the US but to go against them is criminal. If you do not like laws...you can protest, write congressmen, etc. and try to change things, but until they do change, we are obligated to obey those laws or face the penalties.

 

It troubles me to hear parents laugh in the face of the laws, what does that teach our children? If we ignore certain laws because we don't like them, then how can children be expected to respect the parent? If they then decide they don't like your rules and go against them, and they are punished for *breaking* the parental boundaries/laws, isn't it a bit hypocritical on the part of the parent? Isn't that what the bible is like? Do as I say, but not as I do?

 

And Nivek, your arguments are sound, whether I totally agree with you or not.

[Jubilant]

I think the main purpose of a gun seems to differ with each person. Some people think the main purpose is to kill, and some people think the main purpose is to protect. There is a difference, and IMO are NOT the same. A purpose in this case is an individual perspective, and how can someone else tell me what MY purpose is?

 

Hi Amanda! I understand what you are saying here but I don't think that anyone here, myself included, think that the main purpose is to *kill* (as if people are going around looking to kill others) but the primary purpose of a gun (even in the mind of many who solely use them for protection) is to *kill* be it animals or humans.

 

I can understand a concept, to have something so we don't have to use it. I guess some people think if we have something, we want to use it. Not so in most cases.

 

ITA...

 

We all agree that we have to keep guns out of the hands of irresponsible people, we just don't know how to go about that EXACTLY.

 

THAT is true.

 

The people that are irresponsible are those whose purpose is to use them to kill, IMO, and the responsible ones want to use it to protect. Big difference, it seems to me.

 

I agree, to an extent, but then you have numerous cases where someone who had one solely with intentions of *protecting*, use it because they flew off the handle. One case that stands out is a teen that walked on a guys lawn and the man got sick of it and shot the kid to death. NO, the teen had no right to walk on the guys property, especially when the man had repeatedly been telling this kid "Stay...off....of...MY...lawn" the teen still had no reason to be killed. Many laws are being passed now in favor of homeowners to use deadly force BUT just when does it go from killing because of *protecting* to killing because someone was a nuisance? KWIM?

 

Again, I'm not for taking guns away. There are times that I want my home armed and we go back and forth trying to decide what to do. However, I am all for stricter gun control laws, even if that means opening mental health records, in order to keep them out of the hands of someone who is a danger to themselves/society.

[Vixentrox]

Strange....I've fired thousands of rounds through guns over the years and though many a game animal, milk jug, tree stump, paper plate, or beer can has been felled, there never was a human killed with my guns and they were never bought with the intention to kill humans. The exception is the pistol I have by the bedside. That one yes, I did buy specifically to defend myself though secondarily, shooting pistols is great fun and makes a good camping/hiking companion for added security against mother nature's more predatory critters.. The only other weapons I have fire that were for killing humans was a M-16 or M-9 when I was in the military. Yes, military weapons suprisingly enough are specifically designed to kill...humans.

[Jubilant]

Jun and Jubilant,

 

You think that it is right of a government to pass laws that put you in danger it is OK...how about when Hitler, with the vote of the Reichstag, sent Jews to the concentration camps and the gas chamber, were Germans supposed to obey the law?.

 

Where did that come from? I seem to recall myself WRITING that there are ways we can influence our government without breaking the law and you are using a very extremist point of view, people have been doing it for DECADES.

 

Of course what Hitler did wasn't *okay*. Thankfully, we live in a republic with democracy.

 

 

......OMFG! You see, it is that kind of oppression that guns are there to give us a means to fight back when all else fails. So what if we are out gunned.

 

Stop. You really are grasping straws with your argument. Now you are putting words in my mouth with absolutely no basis.

I WILL NOT OBEY AN UNJUST LAW....CALL ME CRIMINAL IF YOU LIKE...I JUST DON'T GIVE A DAMN AT THAT POINT.

 

Then you are no better than the drug lord, or illegal arms dealer and you have no right to judge anyone a criminal who uses guns. Afterall, they are protecting themselves from other criminals and its their right to do so...fuck the little children and innocent people caught in the crossfire.

 

I got news for any of you who think the government can do no wrong...

 

There you go again. You aren't enlightening me here BO, I don't trust the government but I also think that the government is out to get me. You are coming of as a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

[Grandpa Harley]

Lets try to find the topic again:

 

Stipulation is that firearms are a net positive in a world of unexpected events and persons with ill intent and purposes.

 

I simply don't care what mental state, problem with his or her momma, mental disconnects, bas life, lousy parenting, bullying, shitty schools, lack of Government intervention or reality the bad_actor has.

 

If they are presenting a deadly danger to self of loved ones, that said actor must penetrate layers of defence before the firearm is removed from concealment and possibly used.

 

Then they have aided in making the decision for me in what happens after they have started the aggression.

*

 

Intelligent Self Defence is not bravado, bragging or any form of obvious "I'ma gonna KICK YO' ASS, MAN!", things said or done to escalate the problem into a fight, then a street battle for ones life.

It is a way of Life, not something that is practice thrice weekly at dojo in a gi, or at the range with your gun or clubs. Your mind is the best tool owned to prevent as much damage being done to your ass you've got.

 

Mack Sensei, the master of the School we attend and practice at simply says about fights "Don't be there". Damn good words to avoid getting into events in which few "win".

*

No one goes out to his or her life and expects to have a horrible VT-esque event happen on their heads and shoulders.

IN that kind of panic and rush, training and equipment are tools meant for your survival, not things designed to impress others.

 

When it is a survival question, literally "every man for themselves" how you've trained, the mental toughness combined with things practiced will amke all the difference. "Blind Luck" seems to only work for the 'Other Guy'..

*

Policitcal Reality Check 4567.6B: "Guns exist, get used to them."

*

I subscribe to the L. Neil Smith School of Zero Aggression Policies. Does not make me a sheep, nor a target. What it does do is helps me control my impulse(s) to go "lay down needed justice" on cretin's heads when angry or pissed off over things I deem *necessary* at time.

*

One ought to have his or her mind made up a long time prior to any "event" as to what options, potientials and possibilities are out there. Much like Momma taking her kids to park on a beautiful afternoon, even though the kids are carefree, Momma is watching, looking for predators and problems, knows where her resources and exits are, has her bandaid kit handy. "Just in case".

 

Life requires preparation, "Just in case".

 

Col. Cooper called this "Living in Condition Orange", being alert, watchful and informed about the immediate surroundings. Person can life live in this state and not become paranoid, nuts or go crazy. Is useful when one finds themselves away from cofortable norms of location.

*

Bad shit happens. For those who wish to negate risk totally live with a fool's errand, in a world of nice dreams rarely upset by reality.

 

Choose to live life blissfully unaware......

 

Until some nut steps in and says "You're NEXT!"....

 

kFL

 

.

 

Largely agree... although statistically the nut who steps up and says 'Time to dream' will be a family member or a close friend... and if they've been to the gun cupboard first then one is in deep, deep shit.

 

The comment

 

 

Mack Sensei, the master of the School we attend and practice at simply says about fights "Don't be there".

 

raised a wry smile... it reminded me of my old unarmed combat instructor... there was always the macho bullshit twat who turned up for about three lessons and would ask in lesson 2 'Which the best method?' edging toward what ever he specialised in (it was always a he... I think it comes of having a Y-chromosome that rots the brain, they usually got hammered in the full contact). The answer was always the same... *long pause* 'The one that works' It was never the same after they disbanded the last of Special Patrol Groups.... the bred a real 'special' form of macho git...

 

So, is a situation that one DOES get into a fire fight happen a lot in your life? Based on your description of your level of prep, you're expecting an invasion (who?) or it's like being John McClaine... avoid tall buildings around Christmas. TBH it all sounds terribly testosterone driven to me... and I do have a guy card somewhere...

[Grandpa Harley]

Japan doesn't have an armed force because they have us

 

Pardon?

 

I train with the JGSDF regularly. What's your idea of "armed force?"

I wondered that...

[Grandpa Harley]

A culture based on shame is one I would never want to live in. If I was forced to, my middle finger would be heavily used. I don't give a shit if I embarras my elders. I used to tell my parents off regularaly even when I would get my butt kicked by my father as a teenager many years ago. I ALWAYS thought for myself and still do. There were some things I knew was bullshit and it turned out to be bullshit just as I thought. By the way, the only type of guns I would EVER own are unregistered ones.....there are ways to legally obtain them too.......

 

And therein lies the problem.

 

Problem?....What the hell is the problem? As I see it, I am simply thinking for myself. Now...I have no problem with a rule if it makes sense. However, if it puts me at risk uneededly, which taking my gun would, I will find a way to get around, over, burrow under, or destroy any rule that is stupid and needs to be defeated...simply put.

 

 

Yes, we can see. Thinking for yourself, by yourself, all about yourself.

 

I was referring to your childish behaviour and lack of respect, as well as your statement about having unregistered guns - talk about trying to be above the law. It's this type of mentality that worries me about people who are able to get hold of firearms.

 

As Gramps said - "The whole post was just reeking of bragging immaturity. The fact someone that gloating can own a gun bothers me..."

 

 

Hmmm.....you don't seem to believe that thinking for yourself is bad when it comes to someone leaving a religion, yet when someone does not agree with you...then it is a bad thing?... Cmon...either it is good in every case or never good in any case...make up your mind. Also, if Gramps will not answer my question...maybe you can Jun. What woud YOU do if the government or anyone in authority passed a rule or a law requiring something of you that puts you in unnecessary danger? Forget guns, anything. I stated a reason with the Montana ranchers...How about you? What you call immaturity is simply my refusal to be screwed? Don't tell me you think it is OK to screw people...

 

I have no problem with you agreeing or not with me or anyone else - burnedout. My first repsonse was to your apparent attitude to your elders. Your apparent lack of respect. It had nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with anything. Respect for your elders and all others around you is what earns YOU respect. I believe that's basic human morals.

 

I have no problem with you making up your own mind, so should we all - but to think that YOU alone are affected by YOUR decisions is rather short sighted. The decisions we make in life affect everyone else around us, sometimes visibly, sometimes not. Sometimes immediately and directly, sometimes not. Perhaps you didn't intend it, but your initial response appeared to me to be self-centered and selfish.

 

As for your question. If the government of the country in which I reside, were to put forth a rule that puts me in danger?

 

Heck, Australia has plenty of rules that put us in danger everyday. How about the law that states that nobody has the actual right to self-defence? That's right, in Oz you are NOT given the right to self-defence - you are required to escape, run or difuse an encounter. If you do use self-defence, and you inflict damage that is deemed "unreasonable" upon your attacker, it will be you who ends up in the slammer! You may NEVER use a weapon of any sort, unless your attacker has a weapon, and the weapon which you use must be OF EQUAL FORCE! Guns may NOT be used in self-defence, unless the attacker has a gun, and even then you WILL be held accountable.

 

How about basic Human Rights? There is no such law governing Human Rights in Australia. Discrimination is protected by a rather piss-weak law which requires extreme measures of proof.

 

The Australian government is clearly, as you put it, "screwing" Ozzies. But to go against the law, to become a law-breaker, to knowingly and determindly break the laws of the country - is that the right thing to do? I don't think so. Where would you end up then? Would the government see it from your perspective? I doubt it.

 

I can see what you are saying. But I disagree with you. The laws of the land are just that, the laws of the land. As citizens, whether we agree with them or not, we are required to uphold them. To go against the law is to lower yourself to the level of the criminals that the laws are designed to curb.

 

 

Jun and Jubilant,

 

You think that it is right of a government to pass laws that put you in danger it is OK...how about when Hitler, with the vote of the Reichstag, sent Jews to the concentration camps and the gas chamber, were Germans supposed to obey the law?.......OMFG! You see, it is that kind of oppression that guns are there to give us a means to fight back when all else fails. So what if we are out gunned. I WILL NOT OBEY AN UNJUST LAW....CALL ME CRIMINAL IF YOU LIKE...I JUST DON'T GIVE A DAMN AT THAT POINT. I got news for any of you who think the government can do no wrong... If my government tries to take any of my rights, I will use every means including; machiovellian, political, legal, and any other unorthodox or mainline means. It will become my aim to drive those politicians or buerocrats to the point they leave office or commit suicide if needed. Hell, I would even would not take off the table full blown revolution if needed.

No, I don't think you're a criminal... I think you're a silly little boy...

[Grandpa Harley]

Strange....I've fired thousands of rounds through guns over the years and though many a game animal, milk jug, tree stump, paper plate, or beer can has been felled, there never was a human killed with my guns and they were never bought with the intention to kill humans. The exception is the pistol I have by the bedside. That one yes, I did buy specifically to defend myself though secondarily, shooting pistols is great fun and makes a good camping/hiking companion for added security against mother nature's more predatory critters.. The only other weapons I have fire that were for killing humans was a M-16 or M-9 when I was in the military. Yes, military weapons suprisingly enough are specifically designed to kill...humans.

And the point of that was? You were in the military, perchance... I'm sure democracy slept all the safer for it... What calibre pistol of dealing with predators? After all too small and you just piss em off... wolves and Bears are pretty hard to stop anyway... same with big cats. their skin prevent bleeding out fast, they don't go into shock easily so you need some thinng pretty powerful if one is charging you... It must be like a big game hunt going camping with you...

[Grandpa Harley]

No, I don't think you're a criminal... I think you're a silly little boy...

 

 

Gramps...you make a mistake...you really think I give a shit what people think of me....

You think I'd not noticed the neoteny and single figure IQ? not at all... I'm really quite observant... Still, I'm sure you impress the poor woman who married you... I hope she find your manifest character flaws and selfishness as merely charming.

 

EDIT: And if you truly didn't care, you'd not have responded to my throw away line... just a handy hint.

 

Why has this stopped logging I've edited my post?

[Amanda]

A culture based on shame is one I would never want to live in. If I was forced to, my middle finger would be heavily used. I don't give a shit if I embarras my elders. I used to tell my parents off regularaly even when I would get my butt kicked by my father as a teenager many years ago. I ALWAYS thought for myself and still do. There were some things I knew was bullshit and it turned out to be bullshit just as I thought. By the way, the only type of guns I would EVER own are unregistered ones.....there are ways to legally obtain them too.......

 

And therein lies the problem.

 

Problem?....What the hell is the problem? As I see it, I am simply thinking for myself. Now...I have no problem with a rule if it makes sense. However, if it puts me at risk uneededly, which taking my gun would, I will find a way to get around, over, burrow under, or destroy any rule that is stupid and needs to be defeated...simply put.

 

 

Yes, we can see. Thinking for yourself, by yourself, all about yourself.

 

I was referring to your childish behaviour and lack of respect, as well as your statement about having unregistered guns - talk about trying to be above the law. It's this type of mentality that worries me about people who are able to get hold of firearms.

 

As Gramps said - "The whole post was just reeking of bragging immaturity. The fact someone that gloating can own a gun bothers me..."

Jun, I respect you immensely. Having said that, I would like to offer you another perspective. I appreciate yours a lot, and can see benfits to them... although, coming from a different culture, they would be extremely hard for me to adapt to them... especially at my age. I'm sure you feel the same way about our culture. I don't know if anyone is wrong or right, just different.

 

Americans tend to never have the belief of being able to bring 'shame' or 'dishonor' to their family members for what they do... they only bring shame and dishonor to themselves in our culture. It's a different view. Parents may try to interject shame, but the American mindset doesn't usually go for it.

 

I've had a similar situation as Burned Out (no middle finger), and I'll share this example with you. I grew up in Florida, good ol' country people, all were from the good ol' USA, and no immigrants to speak of here in those days (mostly before Disney, after Disney many immigrants came). I was taught to associate and marry 'your own kind'. Well, I couldn't buy the rationale for that. They told me they'd be so embarassed if I dated a foreigner. When they found out I was marrying an Arab Jew from Cairo... they were not happy initially. Well, to make a long story short, they ended up really liking my husband, and even though I divorced, he and my family always remained good friends, and they never say anything bad about him. My parents love our sons to pieces. Americans feel that they make a decision based on their own set of values, which are not always analogous with their parents or their culture at the time. We don't think this is disrespectful, but respectful to each person's right to their individualtiy.

 

Burned Out isn't being self centered, or totally showing a lack of respect, IMO. Our culture believes that respect has to be from yourself, and a reflection of your 'individual' values. The other side to that is they alone are to be held accountable and responsible for that decision. If Burned Out uses their middle finger in a way I think is inappropriate, that is a reflection of Burned Out, based from my own values. Why would I allow that to bring shame to Burned Out's family? We usually avoid holding a family member in shame for what another person does, and often we sympathize with them for their agony of seeing someone close to them make a wrong choice... but it was their own choice, and they alone get the repercussions from it. A family member has the right to distant themselves from their loved one too. Hopefully resolutions come out with a positive benefit for all.

 

I'm not saying we are totally right in our culture, although I do think it does have some positive merits to it.

[Amanda]

Lets try to find the topic again:

 

Stipulation is that firearms are a net positive in a world of unexpected events and persons with ill intent and purposes.

 

I simply don't care what mental state, problem with his or her momma, mental disconnects, bas life, lousy parenting, bullying, shitty schools, lack of Government intervention or reality the bad_actor has.

 

If they are presenting a deadly danger to self of loved ones, that said actor must penetrate layers of defence before the firearm is removed from concealment and possibly used.

 

Then they have aided in making the decision for me in what happens after they have started the aggression.

*

 

Intelligent Self Defence is not bravado, bragging or any form of obvious "I'ma gonna KICK YO' ASS, MAN!", things said or done to escalate the problem into a fight, then a street battle for ones life.

It is a way of Life, not something that is practice thrice weekly at dojo in a gi, or at the range with your gun or clubs. Your mind is the best tool owned to prevent as much damage being done to your ass you've got.

 

Mack Sensei, the master of the School we attend and practice at simply says about fights "Don't be there". Damn good words to avoid getting into events in which few "win".

*

No one goes out to his or her life and expects to have a horrible VT-esque event happen on their heads and shoulders.

IN that kind of panic and rush, training and equipment are tools meant for your survival, not things designed to impress others.

 

When it is a survival question, literally "every man for themselves" how you've trained, the mental toughness combined with things practiced will amke all the difference. "Blind Luck" seems to only work for the 'Other Guy'..

*

Policitcal Reality Check 4567.6B: "Guns exist, get used to them."

*

I subscribe to the L. Neil Smith School of Zero Aggression Policies. Does not make me a sheep, nor a target. What it does do is helps me control my impulse(s) to go "lay down needed justice" on cretin's heads when angry or pissed off over things I deem *necessary* at time.

*

One ought to have his or her mind made up a long time prior to any "event" as to what options, potientials and possibilities are out there. Much like Momma taking her kids to park on a beautiful afternoon, even though the kids are carefree, Momma is watching, looking for predators and problems, knows where her resources and exits are, has her bandaid kit handy. "Just in case".

 

Life requires preparation, "Just in case".

 

Col. Cooper called this "Living in Condition Orange", being alert, watchful and informed about the immediate surroundings. Person can life live in this state and not become paranoid, nuts or go crazy. Is useful when one finds themselves away from cofortable norms of location.

*

Bad shit happens. For those who wish to negate risk totally live with a fool's errand, in a world of nice dreams rarely upset by reality.

 

Choose to live life blissfully unaware......

 

Until some nut steps in and says "You're NEXT!"....

 

kFL

 

.

GREAT POST!

[Amanda]

Heck, Australia has plenty of rules that put us in danger everyday. How about the law that states that nobody has the actual right to self-defence? That's right, in Oz you are NOT given the right to self-defence - you are required to escape, run or difuse an encounter. If you do use self-defence, and you inflict damage that is deemed "unreasonable" upon your attacker, it will be you who ends up in the slammer! You may NEVER use a weapon of any sort, unless your attacker has a weapon, and the weapon which you use must be OF EQUAL FORCE! Guns may NOT be used in self-defence, unless the attacker has a gun, and even then you WILL be held accountable.

Jun, researching Oz's new gunlaws (I think called Port Arthur?), surprisingly seems to have some very positive results, statistically speaking. What I've read, it seems homicides are dropping drastically. It will be interesting to see how the long run scheme of things works out in those regards. Initially, I don't like the idea really, as I still think gun ownership keeps everyone honest. Do I understand that you don't like it either, and if so, why? Rights being taken away?

 

Japan doesn't have an armed force because they have us

 

Pardon?

 

I train with the JGSDF regularly. What's your idea of "armed force?"

I thought Japan agreed to not have an armed force after WW2. I suppose I was mistaken, and stand corrected. Good for them that they do have their own protection!

 

Hi Amanda! I understand what you are saying here but I don't think that anyone here, myself included, think that the main purpose is to *kill* (as if people are going around looking to kill others) but the primary purpose of a gun (even in the mind of many who solely use them for protection) is to *kill* be it animals or humans.

Hi Jubilant! Wouldn't the purpose of the gun be determined by the person possessing it? A gun is made with the ability to do different things, one being to fire bullets and killing. Granted.

 

However, let me use this example. Many years ago, I bought a house that needed rennovations. I hired many construction guys, here and there... being the contractor myself, to do the work. Many had to go through my bedroom to do what they had to do. I was a young single mom, and did NOT know these people other than giving me a price to do what I wanted them to do... and hiring them. They are probably nice guys, and I'd like to think so, yet I wanted to make sure my family was safe should something escalate later. My son had a pellet gun that looked absolutely real. I use to leave it out on my far nightstand by my bed. It remained untouched, and I feel it made a statement. Now... that could have very well been a real gun, and either one would serve the same purpose... to deterr any irrational problems that could occur, just by its presence being known. Did it help? IDK. Fortunately I had NO problems.

[Grandpa Harley]

Gramps...

 

Attacking me...hmmm...LOL....

 

You have to understand one thing...I don't really give a shit about what you say about guns. You have no understanding about why we in America cling to our 2nd amendment rights. You have seen arguements from Nivek, Casey, and many others. I would just be wasting megabytes trying to convice you of shit about guns so I just don't take your arguements seriously...

 

By the way, there are others whom I have communicated with on here and we just realize there is no arguing with someone who is afraid of someone who is willing to live a slave than to be free. The best thing for you is to never come to America if you are so afraid of Americans with guns. I would rather die free than live a slave. I really hold no ill will towards you personally. I also know a fan of eugenics would not like a free society anyway...they cannot control a population who reproduces without government approval......

 

He said 'shit' he must be right...

[Grandpa Harley]

A culture based on shame is one I would never want to live in. If I was forced to, my middle finger would be heavily used. I don't give a shit if I embarras my elders. I used to tell my parents off regularaly even when I would get my butt kicked by my father as a teenager many years ago. I ALWAYS thought for myself and still do. There were some things I knew was bullshit and it turned out to be bullshit just as I thought. By the way, the only type of guns I would EVER own are unregistered ones.....there are ways to legally obtain them too.......

 

And therein lies the problem.

 

Problem?....What the hell is the problem? As I see it, I am simply thinking for myself. Now...I have no problem with a rule if it makes sense. However, if it puts me at risk uneededly, which taking my gun would, I will find a way to get around, over, burrow under, or destroy any rule that is stupid and needs to be defeated...simply put.

 

 

Yes, we can see. Thinking for yourself, by yourself, all about yourself.

 

I was referring to your childish behaviour and lack of respect, as well as your statement about having unregistered guns - talk about trying to be above the law. It's this type of mentality that worries me about people who are able to get hold of firearms.

 

As Gramps said - "The whole post was just reeking of bragging immaturity. The fact someone that gloating can own a gun bothers me..."

Jun, I respect you immensely. Having said that, I would like to offer you another perspective. I appreciate yours a lot, and can see benfits to them... although, coming from a different culture, they would be extremely hard for me to adapt to them... especially at my age. I'm sure you feel the same way about our culture. I don't know if anyone is wrong or right, just different.

 

Americans tend to never have the belief of being able to bring 'shame' or 'dishonor' to their family members for what they do... they only bring shame and dishonor to themselves in our culture. It's a different view. Parents may try to interject shame, but the American mindset doesn't usually go for it.

 

I've had a similar situation as Burned Out (no middle finger), and I'll share this example with you. I grew up in Florida, good ol' country people, all were from the good ol' USA, and no immigrants to speak of here in those days (mostly before Disney, after Disney many immigrants came). I was taught to associate and marry 'your own kind'. Well, I couldn't buy the rationale for that. They told me they'd be so embarassed if I dated a foreigner. When they found out I was marrying an Arab Jew from Cairo... they were not happy initially. Well, to make a long story short, they ended up really liking my husband, and even though I divorced, he and my family always remained good friends, and they never say anything bad about him. My parents love our sons to pieces. Americans feel that they make a decision based on their own set of values, which are not always analogous with their parents or their culture at the time. We don't think this is disrespectful, but respectful to each person's right to their individualtiy.

 

Burned Out isn't being self centered, or totally showing a lack of respect, IMO. Our culture believes that respect has to be from yourself, and a reflection of your 'individual' values. The other side to that is they alone are to be held accountable and responsible for that decision. If Burned Out uses their middle finger in a way I think is inappropriate, that is a reflection of Burned Out, based from my own values. Why would I allow that to bring shame to Burned Out's family? We usually avoid holding a family member in shame for what another person does, and often we sympathize with them for their agony of seeing someone close to them make a wrong choice... but it was their own choice, and they alone get the repercussions from it. A family member has the right to distant themselves from their loved one too. Hopefully resolutions come out with a positive benefit for all.

 

I'm not saying we are totally right in our culture, although I do think it does have some positive merits to it.

I'm afraid he comes across as an arrogant, ignorant, macho-man child (and a spoiled child at that). A lot like the perceptions that the rest of the world has of the US.

[Grandpa Harley]

[name=Jun' post='275294' date='May 1 2007, 12:18 PM]Heck, Australia has plenty of rules that put us in danger everyday. H if so, why? Rights being taken away?

 

Japan doesn't have an armed force because they have us

 

Pardon?

 

I train with the JGSDF regularly. What's your idea of "armed force?"

 

I thought Japan agreed to not have an armed force after WW2. I suppose I was mistaken, and stand corrected. Good for them that they do have their own protection!

 

name='Jubilant' post='275309' date='May 1 2007, 01:22 PM']Hi Amanda! I understand what you are saying here but I don't think that anyone here, myself included, tand killing. [/color]Granted

 

However, let had NO problems.

 

what else can it do... paper weight? coat hook? wall decoration? I'm intrigued to know what else it can do?

[Grandpa Harley]

Lets try to find the topic again:

 

StipuFL

 

.

GREAT POST!

 

Say why it's a great post...

[Grandpa Harley]

Gramps...

 

Attacking me...hmmm...LOL....

 

You have to understand one thing...I don't really give a shit about what you say about guns. You have no understanding about why we in America cling to our 2nd amendment rights. You have seen arguements from Nivek, Casey, and many others. I would just be wasting megabytes trying to convice you of shit about guns so I just don't take your arguements seriously...

 

By the way, there are others whom I have communicated with on here and we just realize there is no arguing with someone who is afraid of someone who is willing to live a slave than to be free. The best thing for you is to never come to America if you are so afraid of Americans with guns. I would rather die free than live a slave. I really hold no ill will towards you personally. I also know a fan of eugenics would not like a free society anyway...they cannot control a population who reproduces without government approval......

 

He said 'shit' he must be right...

 

What...you only comment on my one foul word....where's your courage man? I thought you had more in you than that....LOL Funny, you would attack me and anyone else who believes in the free access to firearms but your belief in eugenics tells a story...you don't believe in freedom for anyone....That is the obvious truth. You have the same belief about government as Karl Marx and Joseph Stalin. No...I don't attack you...your tooo funny.......

There was and is nothing to comment on... why argue with a demented child? but rant away little one...I'm sure you impress someone.

[Ramen666]

Nivek..Nivek..Nivek...

 

I read your little article and looked on the internet for more information on it. Nothing I am finding says this is recent as of this year. The farthest date I could find is back to 1998. I like where this argument is heading it just seems to be going down away from it.That is also an issolated incident if those people wanted they can take it up with the court because it is is viloating the consitution. Give me two more links of the same story then I will believe it is not bull shit because that website does not look credible to me.

 

Why did you give me this information it clearly has nothing to do with the core main argument I am addressing. Amanda seems to be the only person on here from the US that gets my point. I am just saying stricter laws the harder for people to get their little weapons...weapons not tools, buckets,ladders,water, guns are classified as weapons. If you care so much about protection, I feel that there should be ways harder for people to buy them and be registered. I know you are against that but that is what I think if you are siging protection in every line of guns, protection from the guns owners that shouldn't be owning.

 

Cho the gunmen did get them legally...makes me wonder how that worked it just shows the bull shit of people that shouldn't own guns.

[Grandpa Harley]

Name calling? No... it was simile. If I was name calling it would have been far more inventive. The bragging, emotive nonsense that constitutes 'debate' is just immature. I've pointed it out but you keep wallowing in it to try to prove otherwise... Word to the wise... you're failing miserably...

 

Now do run along, there's a good fellow... I'm sure an adult would like to say something...

 

Meanwhile, on topic...

 

Anyone feel equal to pull the bones out of this?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_...e_United_States

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_...e_United_States

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_t...ates_(by_state)

 

http://www.soros.org/initiatives/justice/a...1/GunReport.pdf (requires download)

 

I'm sure there's some stuff in there

[Devilin]

"Those who wish to argue with me may do so, I invite that discussion."

My strong RKBA/2A stance is a "conviction", an ideal in which I would die before changing

 

"Be prepared to contra-discuss with fact and opinion, as I won't hold back on yours."

"My strong RKBA/2A stance is a "conviction", an ideal in which I would die before changing"

 

lets look at the evidence presented

 

 

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/mailto:blackrb1@hotmail.com ..........Error 404 Object not found!

http://digg.com/login..........Login to Digg page

http://www.rationalreview.com/content/28180 .......... rant devoid of any hard scientific evidence

http://www.acton.org/ppolicy/comment/article.php?article=380 .......... rant devoid of any hard scientific evidence

http://www.fff.org/comment/com0704m.asp .......... rant devoid of any hard scientific evidence

http://www.libertyforall.net/?p=628 .......... rant devoid of any hard scientific evidence

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/...&thispage=1 .......... rant devoid of any hard scientific evidence

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=11342 .......... rant devoid of any hard scientific evidence

http://maymin.com/node/51 .......... rant devoid of any hard scientific evidence

http://www.clairewolfe.com/wolfesblog/00002553.html .......... pics and rant devoid of any hard scientific evidence

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/ .......... rant devoid of any hard scientific evidence

http://jpfo.org/ .......... pics and rant devoid of any hard scientific evidence

 

Scotland tops list of world's most violent countries ...... .......... anything about the issue guns ?

 

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1487949/posts ....... knives crime

http://www.theherald.co.uk/mostpopular.var...ade_culture.php ....... knives crime

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgo...est/4788881.stm ....... Swords crime

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1487949/posts ....... knives crime

http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh.cfm?id=9792006 ....... knives crime

http://www.theherald.co.uk/mostpopular.var...ade_culture.php ....... knives crime

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/blackstock6.html .... what do we have here statistics.and a romantic idea of how Scotland used to be in the good old days "Scotland is once more a picturesque land where you and your mates can gather for a peaceful pint at the local pub". knives crime and this is obviously written by somebody with very limited historical knowledge about Scotland

 

Nope a part from the occasional mention of Dunblane nothing about guns

 

This is no debate this is somebody who is fanatical about guns "My strong RKBA/2A stance is a "conviction", an ideal in which I would die before changing"

and with no solid evidence just some scare stories and he's decided to preach .... thus

 

The end is nhy

The end days are upon us brethren.arm thyself brothers and sisters.or ye will stand defenseless against Satan and all his works. but with Gods instrument of justice (ak47) in your hands you can defeat all that stands before ye. brethren

Ye government is run by Satan and his devilish followers. only gods instrument of justice can free ye from this tyranny brethren

 

Can I have a amen brethren

 

Devvie old bean, you don't get an amen, but a "Strike One" for being an obtuse dumbass in a fairly intense discussion. Figured your participation in this thread was a joke to begin with, you've proved yourself. Feel free to discontinue use of this Thread at the invitation by the Board's mean_old_man.

 

Strike Two