Lightbearer Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 If Jesus/God is "coming back" why did he/them ever leave in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGJ@ReligionisBullshit Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 If Jesus/God is "coming back" why did he/them ever leave in the first place? He didn't want to miss his tee time? If he ever existed, he is not present now, so he had to leave because they cannot account for his eternal presence now. Of course the Christians would say that he left because he had to die for our since, that, of course, brings up the whole debate of original sin still existing in man hence the need for baptism and saving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piprus Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 If Jesus/God is "coming back" why did he/them ever leave in the first place? Well hell, I've been an x-c for 40 years and I still know that answer: "I go to prepare a place for You". As long as he's been gone it should be a real humdinger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick5 Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 I go to prepare a place for You Well I thought he was all powerful and do anything instantly but it seems like I was wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightbearer Posted May 1, 2007 Author Share Posted May 1, 2007 The question popped into my head while listening to a song by the band Cursive called "Retreat!" (great song by the way, i'm listening it too it while typing this.) talking about how people were looking for someone and since that person has "been on holiday" all these bad things happen. It doesn't come out and say "God" but you get the point of the song, it's a no brainer. Now, i'm a hardcore atheist and this question has been baffling me since the Virginia Tech Massacre. People hold prayer vigils and it makes me wonder how they can pray to God and not wonder where the fuck he was during this whole thing and why Cho ran around with Ax Ismael on his hand and comparing himself to Jesus. (For the record, please don't turn this thread into a debate about VT, Nivek moved all that stuff elsewhere). Between Jesus's apparent death (even if we do them a favor and assume he existed) and now, horriable things have happend, some in Jesus' name. It continues everyday and where the fuck is God during all of this? Sleeping? On vaction? He could of intervened and saved the millions who died in the Dark Age crusades, in the black plague, in the hundreds of wars being fought all over the globe, in the gas chamber of Nazi Germany and the Gulags of Soviet Russia. You look at all that has happend since Jesus the Perfect Super Human and wondered why he hasn't comeback, what's he waiting for? For more people to die in his name to fill his endless lust for blood? It leaves me profoundly baffled why anyone would even think about believing in this bullshit, after looking at the last 2000 years, since he has been away on holiday. I've never seen an answer to the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGJ@ReligionisBullshit Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 Sounds like someone is looking for a new messiah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightbearer Posted May 1, 2007 Author Share Posted May 1, 2007 Psshh... I am my own messiah. It's just criticism of Christians and the doctrine of "JESUS IS COMING BACK!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 If Jesus/God is "coming back" why did he/them ever leave in the first place? Awfully good question. Consider God first started the planet, and tricked A&E into sin, and then waited friggin 4000 years before Jesus came and solved the whole sin problem. Then he left, and now we've waited another 2000 years. And the result of it all? 99.99999% going to Hell... That's no frigging intelligence in that design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightbearer Posted May 1, 2007 Author Share Posted May 1, 2007 I'm having a debate with this Christian on Facebook and I asked the question about the Virginia Tech shootings after he wrote a note about how these dirt biker riders were doing great things for God and the VT thing needs to bring people closer to each other and God. The messages went like this... (spelling errors and bad grammar intact) hey man i saw you commented my note "ruts of life". i am not trying to force anything on you or judge you in any way. i published that note because it is my duty as a devout Christian to tell people about Jesus Christ......and no i have not read Cho's Manifesto.....and i will not even pick up that book because no one......and i repeat NO ONE can compare themselves to Jesus Christ and what he did for everyone's sins on the Cross. i did not really understand what you were trying to say in the comment but i am just going to say that as a Christian.....I am not perfect....and no one is. my sins are just as worse as yours or anyone else's on the planet in God's eyes. i will not try to force to my Faith on you and i will respect your beliefs......because that is what i am supposed to do as a Christian.....and you should't try to force your beliefs on me.......but i will be praying for you and maybe YOU will come around. Please read this and i will leave you with this verse: Matthew 7:3-Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Think about this and you'll see where i am coming from about me not judging you.....that is God's job. I replied... First of all, no one is forcing their views on anyone here. To force my views on you would be to hold your life at gunpoint and tell you to accept my views or die. There are other forms of force, like coercion, blackmail, harassment, property damage and anything that generally FORCES you to something against your will at the threat of losing your life or being damaged in some way. I say that because, so far, I haven't done that too you and you haven't done that to me. A peaceful dialogue between two people hardly counts as forcing anyone to do anything. So don't sweat it dude, I don't think your forcing your views on me or anything like that. I appreciate the response actually, most people play the "If I ignore them they will go away card" you know how annoying it is to not get some kind of a response? You must of known that when writing your note, that people would respond. However, I’m willing to bet that you didn't expect a response like mine right? One of the reasons I posted on your note was because I see a lot of notes like yours, messages to Christians, and they always make me wonder. This note specifically, makes me wonder because of the Virginia Tech thing. The point I was trying to make, which would be better asked between you and I and not on the note, is to ask you how you could prayer after events like this. Does it make you wonder, "Where was God?" when all these people were being killed? I think it's terrible to see people praying to God without questioning why God would let something happen like this. I already know God doesn't exist, so the question doesn't bother me, I have my answer already. The thing that bothers me is why Christians don't ask it, or answer it when it's asked. Again, asking you that question might unnerve and offend you but it's not forcing you right? I mean it with respect and sincerity. That ties into the broader point about you wanting to spread God's word and telling people about Jesus. You said that Christians need to take the harder, nastier, tougher road and you'll be blessed in the end. Have you ever thought, what if your never blessed? What if you sacrifice and end up with nothing? Have you seriously sat down and thought about it? Did you question where God was when people were dying at Virginia Tech? You obviously thought it about and felt inspired to get online and write about it. But i'm curious as to whether there were any doubts in your mind about God after this thing. I wonder why you came to the conclusion that Christians need to be more Christian because of this. I've seen people give their entire lives to God like you suggest and in the end -- they have nothing. They still have pain, sorrow, suffering just like other human beings, believers and non-believers. I've seen people who preached God's word for years only to leave him after getting nothing out of it and realizing they only hurt themselves. There are people who follow the deepest and toughest ruts in their lives who just end up in lying in the dirt waiting for Jesus to come pick them up and they die there. Alone. Is that the path you really suggest for people? Mother Teresa had a similar idea, she would not let patients get medical treatment because she told them "suffering is beautiful" and they suffered in pain and the woman was heralded as a bastion of morality. Think about the implications your suggestion has. Would you give up motor cross for God if he asked you, after all, the tougher path has the least amount of selfish worldly pleasures right? That's the rut Jesus walked on. You said it yourself, you can't compare to Christ, so let me ask, why even try? If it's impossible why even try? How are you going to tell others to walk this and not walk it yourself? That's the basic point of your note. If you gave EVERYTHING to God and you drove through the middle rut only to crash, burn and break your legs would you still believe in him? Would you still trust him? You gave him everything and he only gave you suffering and pain. If the opposite happend would you give him all the credit, or would you say "I did this because *I* made it happen"? By the time you get down to this part of the message I can't imagine what's running through your head. Anger, most likely. I'm not going to apologize, because i'm only being honest with you. I can't really tell why this note struck me so much to reply to it. I'm willing to bet you never heard or was expecting a response like mine because, as far as I can tell, everyone around you is a Christian like yourself. But I wanted to say it. That's all that matters. If I can get you to think about it, with your mind and your reason, not by force, then writing this is worth it. Again, thanks for the response, I’m looking forward to another. Feel free to post this in a note if you want to, I don't mind. He replies with this... hey man. it was no problem responding back to you. i love to talk about things of belief, and yes, i actually did expect some kind of response like yours. not as much as the other reponses i got, but i did kind of expect it, because, as a Christian i am always prepared to stand up for Christ. To answer your question of "how can pray after events like this?" i would just have to say that as a Christian and a reader of the Bible that there is power in prayer. period. God never went anywhere in those shootings, but the Bible says that our God is a God of wrath. Look around at this country.....there is sin EVERYWHERE! The Bible states that homosexuality is a sin, and there is more of that every day as well as premarital sex, pornography, etc., etc. For example, when God flooded the Earth there was much wickedness on it, so he flooded it to get rid of it (Genesis 6:1-8) if you want to know. The same with Katrina...New Orleans was infested with sin. It was a terrible thing, but look at how the country came together for the people of New Orleans. For once there was some common ground. Back to my point of the VA Tech students. The shooting was terrible, but look at how colleges have thrown aside their rivalries and differences and have come together on behalf of those students that lost their lives. i said that in my note but i guess you may not have caught it. God never left or went anywhere, He uses everything to His glory....and no that question does not offend me because before i was a follower of Christ i would ask that very same question to myself. Let me ask you a question now okay. Why don't you think there is a God? What made you come to that conclusion? You don't have to answer if you don't want to but i would just like to know what your reason for not believing in God is. And your other question about not getting blessed at the end of the hard road of being a devout Christian.....I've got some scripture here for you: John 16:20- "Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep & lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn to joy." If that doesn't lay out my reason for trusting in God i don't know what does. And yes i have thought about it, because sometimes its so hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel, but that is Satan trying to get hold of me and break my spirit. But i just look back at this verse and i pray that God will give me strength to persevere, and every time i have persevered through Christ i HAVE been blessed. I thought my little sister was going to die from a brain tumor last year, so don't think i have never had anything serious happen to me personally, because i have. i prayed for her and that surgery, and it was very hard in doing so i won't even lie. i would ask God why He would take away my sister and best friend, but for some reason i would just resist asking that question and prayed that He would handle it.....and He did. She came out of the surgery like she never even had the tumor, except for the scar you can't even see now. she was back to her normal routine after about 3 months. That is just ONE blessing that i have had in my life. i NEVER doubted God after the VA Tech shootings, and i will never doubt Him. i came to that conclusion because lots of Christians are hypocrits. Lots of Christians will put on their "good face" on Sunday mornings for church then the next week go out and drink and have sex and not live a life glorifying to God. i think it was a wake up call to believers that the shooting could have just as easily happened at our school. That was a wake up call to Christians saying,"dang, i really need to change the way i'm living." and sometimes God throws us some wake up calls. And when you talk about people not getting anything out of preaching God's word, first of all those people shouldn't be preaching God's word because they are just in it for themselves. IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU, IT'S ABOUT GOD AND EVERYONE ELSE. Those people that do that are preaching for all the wrong reasons. The reason to preach God's word is to reach other people for Christ, not to hope you will just benefit from it for yourself. And YES, i would do it without question. i'm not going to give the "well since i love it and it's just what i love to do speech" YES I WOULD GIVE IT UP IN HEARTBEAT because i know that God's plan for life is greater than anything i could possibly imagine (I am very aware that you don't believe this, but it is my belief that His plan is the greatest.) There is a difference in comparing myself to Jesus Christ and striving to be like Christ. I cannot compare myself to Him at all because He was perfect, lived a sinless life, and died for my sin. I am CERTAINLY not perfect, and as a Christian, i am not ashamed to say that i have sinned. everyone has. "For we have all fallen short." but that does not give me reason to not strive to be like Him. That is what i try every day, and i am getting better at. Any devout Christian will tell you the exact same thing. And yes i would give him ALL the credit because He made it happen. Here's some more scripture for you: Proverbs 3:5-Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding." I cannot do anything on my own, so I will not give myself the credit when God blesses me because it was not me, it was God. Thank for responding back to me. And all of this i just wrote is what was running through my head, you didn't make me have any doubt whatsoever. and i am NOT, i repeat NOT angry at all.....you are wrong there. and no you don't need to apologize because you have not offended me in any way at all, and i appreciate you being honest. and i was fully expecting a response like this. Not everyone around me is a Christian, a majority of my friends are Christians, but some are not. God tells me as a believer to surround myself with Christians and non-Christians. I just try to tell the non-Christians about Christ, and if they don't want to hear it then i just pray for them. This is what you got me to think about, thank you for this because now you have driven me to tell more people about Christ and i'm super pumped! I thank you as well for your response and i hope to get another so we can continue this. I love talking about anything that has to do with Christ. Write back and i'm praying for you. Basically when it comes to God, the ends justify the means. It's kinda sick. I don't like posting private messages on public forums, but I wanted you guys to see it and it furthers the discussion on the subject and it's my private messages in the first place I can do what I want with them. I don't think he will be coming around here anytime soon either. But you can see why i'm frustrated with this simple question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGJ@ReligionisBullshit Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 Geesh, saying "I will pray for you and maybe you will come around" is so condescending and arrogant. It is smackfull of pride; it psychologically raises one's ego above the prayer 'victim' to the status of godhood, as though, by command, he can sway your beliefs by supernatural means. If he really cared about you and not about how others view him, he wouldn't tell you he was praying for you, he would just pray for you. By telling you he is making the statement that you are inferior and he is superior. There is a reason Jesus said to go into your closet and pray, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, etc. It is so you won't get one of the seven deadly sins latched onto your soul. He is what I call a 'public Christian' because he is more concerned of what others think of him, that he is a "good Christian" so anytime he does something Christ-like, he has to let everyone know. I guess his reward will not be in heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 Geesh, saying "I will pray for you and maybe you will come around" is so condescending and arrogant. It is smackfull of pride; it psychologically raises one's ego above the prayer 'victim' to the status of godhood, as though, by command, he can sway your beliefs by supernatural means. If he really cared about you and not about how others view him, he wouldn't tell you he was praying for you, he would just pray for you. By telling you he is making the statement that you are inferior and he is superior. There is a reason Jesus said to go into your closet and pray, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, etc. It is so you won't get one of the seven deadly sins latched onto your soul. He is what I call a 'public Christian' because he is more concerned of what others think of him, that he is a "good Christian" so anytime he does something Christ-like, he has to let everyone know. I guess his reward will not be in heaven. Isn't that the truth! Many Christians are exactly like what Jesus preached against. And they remain clueless... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 If Jesus/God is "coming back" why did he/them ever leave in the first place? It's one of those textual problems that Xians must argue around. They can't prove their god ever came down to earth, or existed to begin with, so the story that he's gone but will come back real, real soon is their way of covering the gaps in their story. All that's required is for people to just take it all on faith and not try to pick it apart. An all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good god would not leave and wait to make things better. Such a god would be bound by his or her nature to pony up and fix things immediately. Waiting would allow all the fucked-up things to continue as they are and cause more harm where none should ever be, so it would not be acceptable to such a deity. But the fact that this doesn't happen proves that no such god exists - a concession no Xian is willing to give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightbearer Posted May 1, 2007 Author Share Posted May 1, 2007 If Jesus/God is "coming back" why did he/them ever leave in the first place? It's one of those textual problems that Xians must argue around. They can't prove their god ever came down to earth, or existed to begin with, so the story that he's gone but will come back real, real soon is their way of covering the gaps in their story. All that's required is for people to just take it all on faith and not try to pick it apart. An all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good god would not leave and wait to make things better. Such a god would be bound by his or her nature to pony up and fix things immediately. Waiting would allow all the fucked-up things to continue as they are and cause more harm where none should ever be, so it would not be acceptable to such a deity. But the fact that this doesn't happen proves that no such god exists - a concession no Xian is willing to give. That's what it comes down too. If you look at it with any shred of logic you can see God isn't there, that's why he didn't come down and intervene. But they point to things where people survived, like the Holocaust, and say God limitedly intervened because of too much Sin or whatever. Which begs the question, why doesn't he just come back and get rid of the sin? God's behavior is irrational, which points to him not even existing. Then there is the camp that says bad things happen because God is punishing them for their sins, like America suffering because there are homosexuals here. Why would people want to worship a being that punishs innocents for "sins" that have no basis in rationality!? If I created the universe, I really woudn't care if your gay or not. It doesn't seem like a big enough issue to kill tons of people over. It's a way to rationalize death and destruction, and the absence of divine intervention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 I'm having a debate with this Christian on Facebook and I asked the question about the Virginia Tech shootings after he wrote a note about how these dirt biker riders were doing great things for God and the VT thing needs to bring people closer to each other and God. The messages went like this... (spel Please folks let us avoid Whole Quoting of lengthy posts with one line answers. If you've got content to reply specifically to, do so, but QUIT HOGGING PAGE SPACE AND SERVER TIME WITH "WHOLE QUOTES". Your consideration appreciated. kFL r. But you can see why i'm frustrated with this simple question. On Katrina... God hates poor black folk... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbobrob Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 OK, so we have the time line: Beginning of Time: Adam and Eve find Original Sin 4,000 years later: Jesus removes Sin (sort of). 2,000 years later: still waiting for Jesus to finish the job. The way I see it, we got another 2,000 years to wait before Jesus comes back. Took him 4K to get anything done the first time, why would we expect him to hurry up this time. So, my vote goes for 4000 AD for his return to finish the half-assed job he started back at the turn of the calendar from BC to AD (or if you prefer politically correct semantics, BCE to CE). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 I use BCE and CE when dealing with histories of non-Chrsitian nations.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 I use BCE and CE when dealing with histories of non-Chrsitian nations.... I use them as a general rule; the real political correctness would be to use Xian terminology (as if in fear of reprisal for not obeying them). The "Domini" in "Anno Domini" or the "Christ" in "Before Christ" do not exist, therefore using those terms is just plain silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Florida Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 If Jesus/God is "coming back" why did he/them ever leave in the first place? What if He already came back and no one recognized Him because He came from within this time, since He had been there and done that outward appearance thing already? Maybe He left so He could do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 What if I have an invisible goblin living inside my spleen who enjoys gouging it with his miniature trident? Does that make any more sense than your recent contribution? No. Let me guess, you believe in fairytales too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 What if I have an invisible goblin living inside my spleen who enjoys gouging it with his miniature trident? Does that make any more sense than your recent contribution? No. Let me guess, you believe in fairytales too? Damn...doesn't that hurt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Only emotionally. haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 What if He already came back and no one recognized Him Impossible. The world will come to a grinding halt when Jesus returns. Maybe your specific Christian doctrine does not say that but some legitimate Christian doctrines do say that and the Bible says it too. Since the world still exists we know Jesus has not returned. So there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 Just for a moment assuming that the tales of Jesus were some how 'real'... If he came back, he'd be in an insane asylum within the day... The church has no interest in Jesus coming back, and I don't see a single politico handing over an iota of power... Jesus would be a monstrous inconvenience to everyone. We killed him once, we can do it again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 What if He already came back and no one recognized Him because He came from within this time, since He had been there and done that outward appearance thing already? Maybe He left so He could do this. What proof or evidence can you offer to back this up? You do understand you have to prove this individual exists, prove he is as you say he is, and then explain why he does not behave as the all-powerful, allknowing, all-loving god he is made out to be? If he were what you claim he is, he'd know better than to come back in any sort of form that people couldn't recognize. Doing otherwise would only complicate his mission to save us all from eternal torture. However, being the ubergod you and others claim he is, he wouldn't have let any evil come into the world to begin with nor would he create a universe in which his creatures all have to devour, destroy, or displace each other for the sake of survival. Everything in nature and every faculty of reason proves no such entity as Jebus can possibly exist. If I am mistaken, please prove me wrong. I'll wait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCrystal Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 If Jesus/God is "coming back" why did he/them ever leave in the first place? I've always wondered that too. I also wondered, "where did he go?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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