Struggling With Alcohol

[Asimov]

The whole attitude of once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic is totally wrong. People can completely get over it and do all the time.

 

No, it's not. Alcoholism is a disease caused primarily by a difference in the way alcohol is metabolized. Alcoholics metabolize alcohol differently than other folks who don't have an addiction to it do. The disease has a strong genetic component to it, and it never goes away. Once you are an alcoholic, you will always be one. The illness can be controlled, but not cured. The only current and best "cure" for the illness is total abstinence. Alcoholics can become sober and maintain that status for many years, but they can never "get over" the illness, as it is a part of their genetic makeup.

 

Alcoholics who do try to drink occasionally are playing with fire, and I personally would strongly recommend against it, as would any competent substance abuse counselor.

 

I think it might be a good idea to cite your sources before making baseless claims like genetic predisposition.

[Brother Jeff]

The whole attitude of once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic is totally wrong. People can completely get over it and do all the time.

 

No, it's not. Alcoholism is a disease caused primarily by a difference in the way alcohol is metabolized. Alcoholics metabolize alcohol differently than other folks who don't have an addiction to it do. The disease has a strong genetic component to it, and it never goes away. Once you are an alcoholic, you will always be one. The illness can be controlled, but not cured. The only current and best "cure" for the illness is total abstinence. Alcoholics can become sober and maintain that status for many years, but they can never "get over" the illness, as it is a part of their genetic makeup.

 

Alcoholics who do try to drink occasionally are playing with fire, and I personally would strongly recommend against it, as would any competent substance abuse counselor.

 

I think it might be a good idea to cite your sources before making baseless claims like genetic predisposition.

It's not a baseless claim, and my source would be the entire medical profession. All doctors (at least, I would hope) and substance abuse counselors (it would be tragic if they weren't and I would question the quality of their education) are aware of the fact that the disease of alcoholism has a strong genetic component. That has been known for decades now.

[Asimov]

It's not a baseless claim, and my source would be the entire medical profession. All doctors (at least, I would hope) and substance abuse counselors (it would be tragic if they weren't and I would question the quality of their education) are aware of the fact that the disease of alcoholism has a strong genetic component. That has been known for decades now.

 

More baseless claims.

[Vigile]

I disagree. AA has helped and continues to help many people. Telling someone to stay away from them is very bad advice, in my opinion.

 

My source is Penn and Teller, so take it with a grain of salt, but on their AA show they claimed that those who attended AA meetings are cured at the same rate as those who go it alone. In other words, AA makes no difference.

 

I do think you have a point about alcoholism and genetics. I believe that a small percentage of those with drinking problems also have a genetic problem that will predispose them toward alcoholism. Some people just turn into drunks the first time they have a drink. My father's cousin was one of them. These people make up a very small minority I think. The rest of those who have problems with overdrinking just have personal control issues, or they are drinking to mask problems.

 

I've gone through times where I have drank regularly. I have noticed that I started to crave alcohol when I drink too much too often. I didn't wish to become dependent on it, so I backed off. Now I can take it or leave it. I don't have the genetic trigger, but that doesn't mean that if I don't exercize self control that I couldn't become an alcoholic.

 

[disclaimer: all of the above is based on common sense and personal experience. I don't have medical research to back up my claims. Research is important, but it is equally important to make sure that it is applied correctly to the individual. I continue to stand by the idea that not all with drinking problems are genetically predisposed toward alcoholism. Only a small minority are. The rest can exercise self control and actually learn to return to social drinking status, IMO]

[Brother Jeff]

It's not a baseless claim, and my source would be the entire medical profession. All doctors (at least, I would hope) and substance abuse counselors (it would be tragic if they weren't and I would question the quality of their education) are aware of the fact that the disease of alcoholism has a strong genetic component. That has been known for decades now.

 

More baseless claims.

I don't ever make baseless claims, under any circumstances. I have done nothing in this thread but state facts, or my opinions which happen to be backed up by facts. You can claim all you want that the facts I have related are "baseless claims", but that doesn't change the fact that the facts I have related are indeed facts. All doctors and all substance abuse counselors are aware of the fact that the disease of alcoholism has a strong genetic component. That's hardly a baseless claim. It is an indisputable medical fact.

[Vigile]

I am a recovering drug addict (I mostly smoked pot heavily and used some cocaine. Never touched harder drugs that only morons even try).

 

Why would you choose to label yourself a drug addict when you admit only regular use of a non-addictive substance? Cocaine is addictive, but you said that you used it only occasionally. This doesn't seem to me to be a very healthy label to pin on oneself. If you used to be a needle-in-the-arm junkie, that's one thing, but a pot smoker?

[Vigile]

AA is harmful, in the very least, because they oppose using drugs to treat alcoholism.

 

Another area where they are even more harmful, IMO, is the fact that they force their members to express and carry with them a self-defeating label: "I'm an alcoholic." As I mentioned in my previous post, not all who abuse the stuff are genetically predisposed. It does no one any good to carry a label of defeatism on their sleeve. This defeatist label even gives one a personal excuse when they fall off the wagon. It's kind of like the parable of the snake. The snake, after promising not to, eats his rescuer under the principle "I'm a snake, that's my nature." This is a bullshit excuse for most people. It's as self defeating as the xian label "I'm a sinner."

[Dave]

My knowledge of the disease of alcoholism is admittedly more than 20 years old now, but to my knowledge, the basic facts regarding it haven't changed in that time. I don't regard AA as a religion, though as you pointed out, people can get carried away with it as they can with just about anything. I regard AA as a good program that works very well for some folks, but not for everybody. It didn't work for me. As I said, I found the meetings to be extremely boring, and I got very little out of them. Consequently, I dropped out of their program many years ago.

Apparently it doesn't work for a lot of people. My experience is from a few psych classes and studying for a recovery counselor certificate. I dropped out of the program because all they preached was AA. One teacher (an AA meeting goer and a post grad teaching for the professor) said that if anyone goes to another program they'd probably die because of it. He said; "AA or die." He's no longer teaching and the program has changed and is slowly de-emphasizing 12step programs. All the stuff you mention is AA dogma. It is pushed by a lot of AA based counselors, but those actually doing research in the field and have higher degrees than the counselors tell a completely different story.

 

I think people need to find what works best for them - whether that is AA or a program like SMART - as I have done in treating my bipolar illness myself, after well-meaning doctors tried and failed to help me. I can't answer your questions. All I do know is that the disease of alcoholism is strongly genetically determined, which explains why it tends to run in families. I also know from personal and from family experience (and from experience with alcoholic friends who have died from the disease) that someone who is truly an alcoholic simply cannot ever return to normal, social drinking. It just simply is not possible.

That's my point - it is not strongly genetically influenced. For many it is a learned behavior. Sure, that behavior can be learned in the home and passed on in families. Saying that only a "true alcoholic" has a disease is the same argument we've heard about "true christians." Alcohol dependency has a continuum like any other problem. Most "age out" as they mature and go to no program at all.... which is the most common mode of recovery. At the other end you have the hard core addict that is probably self medicating for some kind of mental illness. And it is possible for some people to return to moderate use. Some can do it although I would never recommend it, it is possible. I've seen people do it, people that were drinking at an extremely high level for decades have done it. Everyone is different.

 

If a cure for alcoholism is ever found, I certainly want to know about it, because I would like very much to be cured.

There is. Try SMART or any of the other programs I mentioned. And just because one is cured doesn't mean they should start using again. It's all in the mental attitude. AA fosters a dependency on the group. The replacements are not that kind of "support" group and help you to establish support with real people out in the real world. AA fosters a struggle by doing things only "one day at a time." The replacements use the word 'never', as in never again. The replacements teach a variety of tools to use in real life. You pick the tool that fits you best and work with it. You use these tools to restructure your thinking and your life. The replacements are not life long programs. You're to learn things and then go away and live your life.

 

Remember that "alcoholic" and "alcoholism" are AA terms, not medical ones. If you don't want to be an alcoholic, don't go to AA. And above all, never admit you're powerless. You do have the power in you. Sometimes it's buried deep and hard to get to, but it is there.

 

Right now, I'm stuck with the illness for life, and I know it and I have long ago accepted that fact. Still, I do enjoy the taste of beer, and it would be nice to be able to return to normal, social drinking. Right now that's nothing but a fantasy, but if a cure for alcoholism were to be found, it could be a reality. If a cure is ever found, and you become aware of it, please let me know about it! Thanks.

Beer does taste good.... but life tastes even better. Social drinking can include punch or soda, it doesn't have to be alcohol. When I go to a party I bring a gallon of apple juice.

 

To be honest, and to give a full disclosure; I taught SMART Recovery because as a Secular Humanist I think that it is our obligation to do volunteer work to help out in our communities. I have never had a drinking, or drug problem.... unless you count cigarettes. I drink, maybe, the equivalent of a 6 pack a year. I have a nice collection of fine desert wines that just sits there aging. I just don't have much of a desire to drink and absolutely no desire to get drunk.

 

Now, according to AA, I had no business teaching that class since I've never been alcohol dependent. They could not be more wrong. During those 10 years I helped hundreds of people learn how to achieve a life long sobriety. Anyone can teach these programs and I highly recommend that anyone looking for some way to help in their community should think about starting a meeting in their area. It will be more rewarding than you can imagine.

[Brother Jeff]

I am a recovering drug addict (I mostly smoked pot heavily and used some cocaine. Never touched harder drugs that only morons even try).

 

Why would you choose to label yourself a drug addict when you admit only regular use of a non-addictive substance? Cocaine is addictive, but you said that you used it only occasionally. This doesn't seem to me to be a very healthy label to pin on oneself. If you used to be a needle-in-the-arm junkie, that's one thing, but a pot smoker?

Well, pot is psychologically addictive, and there is some evidence that it is mildly physically addictive, according to what I have heard. I smoked a hell of a lot of pot when I was a teenager. If I was awake, I was stoned - literally. I would regularly smoke a joint shortly after I woke up (most of the time before I even showered), and I would remain stoned for the rest of the day. I regularly smoked five joints a day, at a minimum. I was definitely psychologically dependent on the stuff. I did use cocaine occasionally. Sometimes I snorted it, but usually I smoked it rolled with pot in joints - a "primo" as such a joint was known then, if not now. In a moment of total stupidity in 1992, I tried smoking crack with a partying friend of mine, and I hated it, which I am certainly glad was the case now. I woke up with chest pains one morning in 1996 after a night of partying, and it scared the shit out of me. I swore off of cocaine that morning and I haven't touched it since, and I never will again.

 

I have a tendency to abuse anything that is mind-altering, and I recovered from an addiction to Xanax in 1998. The doctor who was treating my bipolar illness at the time prescribed it for anxiety, and I got hooked on it and abused it for the short but intense high it gave me. The doctor didn't seem to think it was that big of a deal with everything else that was going on at the time, but I hated the thought of being addicted to a drug. So, I checked into the hospital and detoxed from it. The withdrawal was hellish, but I overcame the addiction, and I haven't touched the stuff since.

[Dave]

Another area where they are even more harmful, IMO, is the fact that they force their members to express and carry with them a self-defeating label: "I'm an alcoholic."

Once you label yourself like that you start seeing that as all you can ever be. In the AA replacement programs we don't use labels like that. They admit they made a long string of bad choices but they are learning how to make different choices. They also admit that they are perfectly fallible human beings. Making mistakes is what we humans do best.

 

As I mentioned in my previous post, not all who abuse the stuff are genetically predisposed.

In the studies I read years ago about 15% with an alcohol dependency had the CREB gene, but 30% to 70% (depending on the study modality) suffered from anxiety or depression. Now those two things can be learned or inherited. Talk therapy based on REBT is the best way to help people with anxiety or depression. That is a clinical fact.

[Dave]

....The doctor who was treating my bipolar illness at the time prescribed it for anxiety, and I got hooked on it and abused it for the short but intense high it gave me. The doctor didn't seem to think it was that big of a deal with everything else that was going on at the time, but I hated the thought of being addicted to a drug. So, I checked into the hospital and detoxed from it. The withdrawal was hellish, but I overcame the addiction, and I haven't touched the stuff since.

That's part of the problem, doctors. Most are not trained in substance abuse and aren't all that interested in treating patients with SA problems. They tend to go with quick fixes, as do the patients. But isn't that part of the problem with dependency - wanting a quick fix? Isn't that part of the problem with our society - wanting a quick and easy solution to any problem? Your kid acts up in school - drug them into submission. You're overweight - take a pill to fix it. Depressed - take a pill to fix it. Mother in law hates you - take a pill to fix it. The thing is that quick fixes don't work in the long run. What you did was good, maybe the change in diet was the trick, or it was just taking control of your problems and taking control of your life. Probably a combination of the two.

 

They may have a pill to "fix" alcohol dependency, but then all you have is someone that is sober but still ailing. Much work needs to be done to the underlying issues, the stress or anxiety.

 

Edited to disappoint the grammar police.

[Vigile]

I smoked a hell of a lot of pot when I was a teenager. If I was awake, I was stoned - literally.

 

How did you afford it? When I was a teenager I had a job washing dishes 20+ hours a week and I had to buy tires for my car on layaway with weekly payments because money was so tight for me.

[Asimov]

I don't ever make baseless claims, under any circumstances. I have done nothing in this thread but state facts, or my opinions which happen to be backed up by facts. You can claim all you want that the facts I have related are "baseless claims", but that doesn't change the fact that the facts I have related are indeed facts. All doctors and all substance abuse counselors are aware of the fact that the disease of alcoholism has a strong genetic component. That's hardly a baseless claim. It is an indisputable medical fact.

 

Which you repeat ad nauseum.

 

Your contentions are highly dogmatic. Rigid adherence to what you think you know whilst abstaining from supplying any actual evidence.

 

Substantiate your claims, or concede.

[mick]

Wow. Thanks for all the responses! I do appreciate it quite a bit. Also, it is very obvious that we have alot of intelligent ex-Christians around here. It's funny because I consider myself well educated, well trained. I have a decent job. But I just don't usually bother to think out the things I type on a message board as much as I should. It seems like most everyone on this board is quite articulate. I often blast stuff onto a board and don't double check it half the time.

 

Here's the thing. I KNOW I can't do this forever, and I KNOW it is a problem. It felt good to see alot of people say that is like the most important step. (Even if I fail to stop immediately)

 

I did drink again last night, but I only had 6 beers. (I had been easily having like 10 every single day) So in a strange way I felt like it was a victory. I actually read something last night anyway that talked about weaning off it if you have been pounding it extremely, every day. (Cold Turkey can cause serious issues)

 

Thanks for all the support! It is helpful. I am going to keep trying to get better each day.

 

Definately get some help Mick, and sit down and think about that anxiety. Are you worried about having to give up drinking? Why does it worry you? Why ARE you drinking? What in your life could use some positive changes so you can reduce the need for alcohol?

 

You don't need to answer me, just sit and ask yourself a few questions about what's really going on and where you would like things to actually go. What do you want to do with your life? What's stressing you out that you need to numb yourself for it? Having a plan of action and a realistic goal helps keep your focus.

 

In the meantime, try to go for one less beer tonight. If you have ten usually, go for nine. That's still an accomplishment. This isn't just working towards defeating alcoholism, it's your day to day life. So take care of it and yourself in little ways, it's worth it.

[Dave]

I did drink again last night, but I only had 6 beers. (I had been easily having like 10 every single day) So in a strange way I felt like it was a victory. I actually read something last night anyway that talked about weaning off it if you have been pounding it extremely, every day. (Cold Turkey can cause serious issues)

Detoxing from alcohol probably wouldn't be a problem for you. I think you have to be up to something like a case a day for several years. Anyway, tapering off works for some people. I tapered off of cigarettes. The best way to quit is the way that works for you. Just be open to different methods if the one you're using doesn't work.

 

Thanks for all the support! It is helpful. I am going to keep trying to get better each day.

Anytime. While your not drinking try to keep occupied. Go play with the kids. Take them on a hike, to the park, just go do something. Make doing something your habit instead of drinking.

[fallenleaf]

My roommate in college was a seriously heavy drinker and had been since before he hit his teens. His whole family abused alcohol and he had learned his patterns of behavior from them. He would get up in the morning and have 3-4 drinks before breakfast (or for breakfast). And then the drinking would continue through the day -- just to maintain. At night he would start drinking heavily (bottle of liquor or most of a case of beer) again. When he stopped drinking or was unable to get a drink, he did start with the DTs. It could be in the mid-90s outside and he would be shaking like it was freezing. He never lasted a whole day before returning to the drink because they got so bad.

 

If you find yourself suffering from the DTs, you are in a serious state and should not go it cold-turkey without medical supervision. The withdrawal can be fatal without medical assistance if it takes a turn for the worse. I do not now if you are that physically dependent on alcohol at this time -- you could be. If you are, then you will need to wean yourself or get medical help to go cold turkey.

 

Keep a positive attitude. Find a group to teach you the skills to cope with your behavior and also the underlying things which make you want to drink so much. And work hard at it. There is hope and light at the end of the tunnel... you might need to put some work in digging the rest of the tunnel though.

[mick]

Well, I did not drink any alcohol at all yesterday. That was the first day in at least 2 months where I had nothing. I feel good about it. I seriously doubt I am going to have any DTs or anything. I will take it one day at a time. Thanks all.

 

 

My roommate in college was a seriously heavy drinker and had been since before he hit his teens. His whole family abused alcohol and he had learned his patterns of behavior from them. He would get up in the morning and have 3-4 drinks before breakfast (or for breakfast). And then the drinking would continue through the day -- just to maintain. At night he would start drinking heavily (bottle of liquor or most of a case of beer) again. When he stopped drinking or was unable to get a drink, he did start with the DTs. It could be in the mid-90s outside and he would be shaking like it was freezing. He never lasted a whole day before returning to the drink because they got so bad.

 

If you find yourself suffering from the DTs, you are in a serious state and should not go it cold-turkey without medical supervision. The withdrawal can be fatal without medical assistance if it takes a turn for the worse. I do not now if you are that physically dependent on alcohol at this time -- you could be. If you are, then you will need to wean yourself or get medical help to go cold turkey.

 

Keep a positive attitude. Find a group to teach you the skills to cope with your behavior and also the underlying things which make you want to drink so much. And work hard at it. There is hope and light at the end of the tunnel... you might need to put some work in digging the rest of the tunnel though.

[Vigile]

You're probably going to feel tired or a bit sick as your liver cleans itself. After 10 beers a day your liver is probably like pate. Perhaps it will help to focus on the idea that you need to give that poor guy a rest in case you get the urge to take another drink over the next few days.

 

You might also lay off the fatty foods for a few days in order to speed up the healing process.

 

[disclaimer: I have no medical training, this just comes from hearsay living amongst the Russians for the past few years]

[Garnet]

Congratulations mick! That's about the only thing I take from a 12 step program...one day at a time. Keep on keepin' on.

[mick]

I'm on day 3 with no alcohol so far. I think I'm doing better. If I make it to like 4 days in a row that will be the longest I have not drank since I deconverted 1 1/2 years ago.

 

Congratulations mick! That's about the only thing I take from a 12 step program...one day at a time. Keep on keepin' on.

[Panther]

Hi! I admire you for speaking up and recognizing a problem and trying to correct it. That's half the battle! It's not always easy to be honest with yourself, that's for sure.

 

I was married to an alcoholic for 15 years. He went in and out of programs and meetings. Sometimes he would "white knuckle" it. But after a period of abstinence (in which he was so proud of himself) he would go out on a bender from hell. The longer he stayed sober in between, the worse it would be when he did pick up. Then when the bender was over, he would be remorseful, ashamed and seek help. This got to be quite a pattern throughout the years and it always saddened me that he could never be honest enough with himself to face his problems.

 

In the meantime throughout those years, I had educated myself to death on alcoholism so I could understand it. My suggestion to you is that you read as much as you can about it. I don't believe the beer itself is the problem...the problem is within and with some work and honesty, you can get better. Life can be great again and you can put this behind you. It can be done. There are going to be really tough days, but like some sober people say...your worst day sober is still better than your best day drunk.

 

At first drinking can be that escape you are looking for, but eventually this "best friend" will turn on you. It will cause you more problems than you had without it until it is causing more havoc in your life than what you were originally trying to escape from.

 

Big hugs, my friend. I'm so glad you spoke up and are trying to get some help.

[Ouroboros]

I'm on day 3 with no alcohol so far. I think I'm doing better. If I make it to like 4 days in a row that will be the longest I have not drank since I deconverted 1 1/2 years ago.

Congratulations. Keep it up Mick.

[Eric_PK]

I apologize for this off-topic post.

 

There is nothing wrong with drinking alcohol. However, I obviously was compensating for some feeling of hurt or loss. (Or trying to deal with being surrounded by Christianity all the time)

 

Now I am at the point where I drink like 10 beers every day. I realized that I need to stop. Yesterday I said I was not going to drink. I grabbed a bottle cap off one of th beers I had drank the night before. I was going to keep it in my pocket and squeeze it when I wanted a drink. I didn't make it. I started drinking around 2 oclock. (I work in the field, and I can pull stuff like that off alot)

 

I told myself that if I can't even make to official "Miller Time" to have a drink I am in deep trouble. Also, I could not make it through one day. I ended up drinking about 10 beers last night.

 

I am going to try and have none today. It is only 11AM, and can feel my anxiety level kicking in, wanting alcohol. Also, I always only wanted beer in the past. Now when I go into the liquor store I start staring down those Vodka bottles. I got a "White Russian" the other day.

 

It sucks because I really like to have some beer. Do you think if I was able to get to the point where I have like just 2 at night, and don't feel like I need more it would be allright to not quit entirely? (Or am I too prone to be dependant on it)

 

I have three little kids, and it has changed the way I am with them. I hide in my office to drink beer rather than hang out with them. I just recently started drinking in front of them.

 

I drank ALOT when I was in college, but I did for the most part stop entirely for 15 years.

 

Anyway, sorry for such a long, unrelated post.

 

I also think that you need help.

 

While I have friends who are successful on AA, I don't think it's the best approach.

 

The biggest problem I have with it is that it takes the Christian perspective that "you are always a weak sinner". From what I know about psychology, one of the worst things to do around a behavior is to dwell on it, and to think that it is beyond your control.

 

I do think that some people are more prone to addiction. I have an ex-alcoholic friend who is still a very addictive personality, but he's learned to channel his addiction towards less destructive pursuits.

[Dave]

I'm on day 3 with no alcohol so far. I think I'm doing better. If I make it to like 4 days in a row that will be the longest I have not drank since I deconverted 1 1/2 years ago.

Good work. Just keep busy. Do something. Take a walk with the kids. Go fly a kite. Take a hike. :-)

[dr_funkenstein]

It's the age-old question isn't it? How do we stop ourselves doing the things we know we shouldn't, yet we do anyway?

 

I look at it this way:

 

When we believe we have the presence of mind to overcome our bad habits by willpower alone, we deceive ourselves.

 

We are being quite unrealistic and egostical to believe that in all circumstances we make rational decisions based on what we know is good and bad for us. We don't. Rather, we run programs in our mind - very much like a computer. Programs that are triggered by various things - sense information (sights, sounds, smells), hearing words or phrases, maybe a particular routine. Whatever the trigger is, we find ourselves compelled to run the program, despite the fact that we know it isn't good for us.

 

We have allowed ourselves to be programmed in this way for various reasons, but at their core the reasons all have to do with a positive association that we have made at some point in time. A positive association that's been reinforced.

 

I'll use gambling as an example. Consider the person who sits at a poker machine and loses their entire paycheck in an hour. This person obviously associates gambling with a positive emotion - the emotion of going for the double-up and winning. The emotion of leaving with extra cash. The exhiliration when you spin up the feature prize. Such a person should instead be associating gambling with the feeling of losing all their money, with the despair of not knowing where their next meal is coming from.

 

So how does one shift these associations? How do I re-associate my problem behaviour with something negative? A little re-programming is required.

 

I truly think that some simple visualisation exercises can help in this regard. What you would do is lock yourself away from all distractions for a period of time, and then visualise yourself feeling the trigger for your behaviour. Determining what that trigger is might take some time, and there may be several - requiring you to do the exercise for each trigger. Whatever it is, you close your eyes and visualise yourself experiencing it - in as much detail as you can. You then recall to mind the awful feelings that result from your problem behaviour. And you do this repeatedly. Every day.

 

Using the gambling example, the trigger might be when you realise it's payday and you have money in your account. So you visualise yourself on the Wednesday when your money goes in, realising that your money is available. You allow yourself to feel the exhiliration of the prospect of gambling for a moment, but then you call to mind the feeling of losing all that money and having none of it left, as a result of gambling.

 

In short - you tie a negative association to the problem behaviour.

 

This technique requires repetition and discipline - but I believe that if you spend the time to alter the association you have with your problem behaviour, you are essentially reprogramming your mind and halting the bad habit you've developed.

 

Anyways that's my coupla pennies.