Mike D Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 When I was a Christian, for some reason I found the whole concept of being 'born again' or 'saved' to be rather vague and confusing. Depending on who you talk to, it could be as simple as belief in Jesus, or maybe belief plus repenting of your sins. To others, it could mean those things plus an additional task or two, or even a laundry list of additional requirements. It could be repentance, belief, plus baptism in water plus speaking in tongues, plus additional "works", plus never sinning again, etc. Some believe that if you go through the salvation "process" but then sin again, your salvation is revoked and becomes null and void, at least until you get "re-saved", each and every time you sin after that. And, to make it more confusing to me, each one of these opinions usually was "backed" by 1 or more Biblical verses to support their belief. At one point I figured you might as well take the one with the most requirements and go with that, since it's probably better to do too much than too little. Well that was until the "saved by faith" people would insist that by doing this you were demonstrating to god you did not believe Jesus' sacrafice was enough and thus rejected his sacrafice in favor of works. Basically it seemed like no matter which strategy you took, you were damned to hell according to someone. Anyway because of all the confusion I never felt like I was getting saved the "right" way and I would be cast into hell for not following the "correct" procedures. According to some Christians, god is a stickler for compliance and if you didn't cross all your "t's" and dot all your "i's" you were as good as roasting in the hottest corner of hell Jesus could find to stick you in. So, I think I got "re-saved" no less than 5 different times during my time as a Christian because I was so sure that I didn't do it right before. To make it worse, each time I got "saved" I never felt any type of "rebirth" or like a "new person" or whatever you are supposed to feel when you get saved. Basically I felt no different than I did 5 minutes before I got "saved". Did anyone else have experiences similar to me, or did you feel secure and confident in your salvation? I never felt secure in mine.... in fact I could never shake the feeling that no matter what I did, I was going to hell anyway. Praise Cheezus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrisonjj Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 When I was a Christian, for some reason I found the whole concept of being 'born again' or 'saved' to be rather vague and confusing. Depending on who you talk to, it could be as simple as belief in Jesuschrist! I was born again and see the light when I read your post! How about a lifetime of being a devoted catholic only to finally live all my doubts those years and determine its all bullshit! Now thats seeing the light! Praised be a good fuck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perianwalsh Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 they told me that it's cleanse from sin,for you(the christian) are a sinner.funny though,the jews never seen people as sinners,neither do indians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 I never felt secure in my conversion, either. There was always something I might've forgotten, or - as you say - some verse which could be used to argue that I still wasn't quite there, despite being baptized or receiving absolution or praying for forgiveness or, or, or... I don't remember how many times I was saved either. It got kind of like sex, actually: there was the first time, which was... well, the first time. Then there was the second, and then the third, and the second time was better than the first, and the third was pretty good... and there were some then that were pretty emotionally intense and phenomenal... and then after a year or two or five it got pretty routine and boring, and then in the end I really didn't want to be doing this same thing over and over again with this Jesus guy, so I dumped him. A lot like sex, actually. Except without the orgasms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smellincoffee Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 I was raised in the UPCI, where salvation is pretty stuff. You have to be called to repentance (you can't just do it when you want to), then dunked into a tub of water in Jesus' name (the titles don't work), and then filled with the Holy Ghost...and you have to speak in tounges to prove that you're saved. Then you comply with holiness standards (which covers everything from a ban on movie-going to strict dress codes) and repent of every little sin that you do. If you keep sinning, you'll "starve" the Holy Ghost and have it get it all over again. I was "saved" twice...once when I was eleven or twelve, and again when I was fourteen or fifteen. It didn't stick the first time because I was a kid and didn't really care about anything but getting out of Hell. The second time stuck for four+ years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 That's the problem with religious fundamentalism. They try to take a very human thing like a "born-again experience" and turn it into some sort of prescription for salvation. I also fell into the UPCI crowd which then took my "awakening" that occurred to me when I was in my late teens prior to them, and layered all sorts of requirements surrounding it. I came to them because I wanted to know more about the experience I saw as God, only to learn I needed to be dunked in water completely with the name "Jesus" spoken over me, like some sort of magic invocation in order for God to accept me. Then I had to produce this phenomenon of speaking unintelligible sounds in order to confirm that God now accepted me. It took what was otherwise a new-found outlook on life that I had found coming out of some dark years in my teens, and put a straight-jacket on it. Being "Born Again" can happen many times in someone's life and may or may not have anything to do with a God object. They can be all equally as profound. Someone man have gone through years of depression and anxiety, then suddenly one day the light bulb goes off for them and they recognize the whole time it was themselves telling lies to themselves and believing them, only to now see that they were nothing and that their thoughts created their emotions. Suddenly their whole life becomes liberated and there is a profound sense of freedom and opportunity and hope that floods their whole being. They are now "born again" and go forth as a "new person". There are many examples of this in any one of thousands of scenarios where someone is now "born-again". Sometimes, a god-figure may be part of this "salvation" because it symbolizes a certain limitless possibility and hope for the individual coming out of a long dark tunnel. I tend to see the reference in the Bible to Jesus talking about being born again, as more of a humanistic reference set in the context of a religious culture and language. "Unless you're born again, you can't see the kingdom of God". Unless you break free from the chains of religious dogma, you can't experience life for yourself. You can tack the face of God on it if you want, but it's all the same thing really. After my experience with the UPCI, I had a second "born-again experience". My "salvation" came when I rejected them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Did anyone else have experiences similar to me, or did you feel secure and confident in your salvation? I never felt secure in mine.... Why do you think there are so many denominations? And every one of them blames Satan as the author of confussion. But yeah, I never felt secure in my salvation. Especially since I could never attain anything close to sanctification, which I thought was the overcoming of sin. Any honest xian has the same doubts and frustrations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 That's the problem with religious fundamentalism. They try to take a very human thing like a "born-again experience" and turn it into some sort of prescription for salvation. I also fell into the UPCI crowd which then took my "awakening" that occurred to me when I was in my late teens prior to them, and layered all sorts of requirements surrounding it. I came to them because I wanted to know more about the experience I saw as God, only to learn I needed to be dunked in water completely with the name "Jesus" spoken over me, like some sort of magic invocation in order for God to accept me. Then I had to produce this phenomenon of speaking unintelligible sounds in order to confirm that God now accepted me. It took what was otherwise a new-found outlook on life that I had found coming out of some dark years in my teens, and put a straight-jacket on it. Being "Born Again" can happen many times in someone's life and may or may not have anything to do with a God object. They can be all equally as profound. Someone man have gone through years of depression and anxiety, then suddenly one day the light bulb goes off for them and they recognize the whole time it was themselves telling lies to themselves and believing them, only to now see that they were nothing and that their thoughts created their emotions. Suddenly their whole life becomes liberated and there is a profound sense of freedom and opportunity and hope that floods their whole being. They are now "born again" and go forth as a "new person". There are many examples of this in any one of thousands of scenarios where someone is now "born-again". Sometimes, a god-figure may be part of this "salvation" because it symbolizes a certain limitless possibility and hope for the individual coming out of a long dark tunnel. I tend to see the reference in the Bible to Jesus talking about being born again, as more of a humanistic reference set in the context of a religious culture and language. "Unless you're born again, you can't see the kingdom of God". Unless you break free from the chains of religious dogma, you can't experience life for yourself. You can tack the face of God on it if you want, but it's all the same thing really. After my experience with the UPCI, I had a second "born-again experience". My "salvation" came when I rejected them. Antlerman, That was wonderful (as usual!). I whole-heartedly agree that that is the meaning of the born-again experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhia Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 I never felt secure in mine at all, especially since as a pentecostal I was taught that my salvation could be "given up", and similarly with the whole blasphemy of the holy spirit crap, I was constantly repenting and re-asking for salvation in case I had accidentally given mine up, or committed blasphemy in my sleep, or some crap like that. I also used to be afraid of air-horns as a kid (maybe 10 or so) because I thought that they were the sound of the trumpets calling the redeemed to rapture. I also used to wake up in the morning, and if I had been left alone, or the house was too quiet, I would get afraid that the rapture had happened and I had been left behind. I'm VERY happy to have broken away from that shit! Fuck salvation, I was born well-enough the first time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oddmanout Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 In the original languages, the phrase is 'born from above', which the Reformists took to mean Election, Predestination, and OSAS. If anyone is interested, I'll post a study from the Reformed theologists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oddmanout Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 Ah, the best 'cut & paste" can produce. John_3_3.doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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