Once Saved, Always Saved

[crazy-tiger]

So, I've been playing back and forth with a certain Fundie... he's a nice enough chap, has this strange argument that he claims no-one has ever proven wrong, but that's another story... and he's managed to show that I could never have been a Christian because I left the Faith...

 

Yep, he's pulling the OSAS argument on me.

 

 

 

It's an amazing argument... one that allows the Christian defense of "you were never a True Christian or you'd still be a Christian" (one we here a lot around here...) but also allows the "You act a certain way when you're Saved, so all those who act differently aren't Saved" defense... you know, the one they use to show that no-one who does anything even remotely bad is a Christian.

 

Well, I did a little checking up on this... again... and found something very interesting.

 

Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (NIV)

 

 

Ooops... if you've been enlightened, tasted the Heavenly Gift, Shared in the Holy Spirit and so on... if you've had all that, you've been Born Again, you are Saved.

 

Yet the Bible mentions about what happens to those who were once Saved and leave the Faith... Could it be that the Bible shows the whole OSAS argument is false??

 

 

So, all you OSAS believers out there, get your belief right... Drop OSAS or you're not following the Bible.

[Lycorth]

Heh - yeah, I recall having problems with this, also. I did the Catholic thing most of my Xian life, and they believe you can lose your salvation by simply turning away from the faith. The Protestants swayed me with their Babblical verses about not being able to lose one's salvation (hyping the super-duper power of Jebus, of course) and I was with them until I found what you cited about being able to fall away.

 

Naturally, much confusion arose, and it wasn't sated until I finally gave Xianity the boot and just accepted the plain truth sitting before my eyes - that the Wholly Babble is nothing but badly-written and clearly un-proofread fiction, chock-full of contradictions.

 

That settled that right quick

[Luke Wolf]

I've read a Romanian Orthodox whatever, give the "you were never a Christian if you left."

 

I guess it comes down to the facts, you know if you was a Christian that fully believed and accepted Christ or not.

 

Personally, I hope OSAS is false, as I would hate to die, have the gates of Heaven opened up for me, and I end up running to hell on my own free will.

[Robbobrob]

It is a bizarre concept that once saved, you can do all sorts of evils and renounce God, yet once God has Chosen you, you are his from that point ever.

 

No point in trying...if you get picked for God's dodgeball team super, if not, "BOMBARDMENT"

[Guest NoGreaterLove]

It is %100 possible for a "true" Christian to fall away form the faith. The verse above as well as one other I know which basically says that "it is better to have never been a Christian at all that to have been one and fall away from the faith" are examples that this is Biblically true.

[Celsus]

This is just another argument concerning the disjointed statements in the Bible. There is no "OSAS", no salvation, no need for salvation. It is a made up bunch of superstitious nonsense. See below:

1. A talking snake caused a rib woman to sin. This rib woman got her husband (father) to sin. Thus all humans are now tainted with sin.
   
2. God, had a son, who is also somehow his own father. God died (logic be damned) to pay himself for the price of sin against himself that he himself specified.
   
3. God the son, came back to life. This Zombie God then flew off into space and will someday come back.
   
4. If you believe in God the son, who is also God the father, you are saved from the sin taint caused by the talking snake.
   

How can any person with an ounce of logic in their body, even consider this nonsensical fairy tale to have any bearing upon reality? Discussing the vagaries of Christian Internal Beliefs, is like arguing who is more evil, Darth Vader or Agent Smith. It is all fiction and is just as silly as the myths of the Greek pantheon.

 

//Bruce//

[BCRoyWatson]

It is a bizarre concept that once saved, you can do all sorts of evils and renounce God, yet once God has Chosen you, you are his from that point ever.

 

Yeah, that seems to me to be the best rebuttal to "once saved, always saved" -- "well, that means that since I was saved a long time ago, I'm set, even if I've gotta do a few centuries in purgatory; 'scuse me now, you go on to church, I'm gonna go have some fun ..."

[Piprus]

Ahh, yes...what a deliciously diabolical topic, "Once saved, always saved". What a simple and effective way to foment a hopeless conflict in the human mind.

 

So, at the beginning, one accepts Jebus, and becomes "saved". So he/she is forgiven from sin, once and forever, and can go about living...right? So then if one remains human, and commits sin, in whatever form, or to whatever degree, like murder or rape or grand theft, it doesn't matter. "Once saved, always saved."

 

But wait...If one is forgiven, and is "born again", he/she is a new creature, right? So that new creature in Jebus won't have a sinful nature, right? But oh shit...we're still committing those damn sins......WTF??? So now we wonder...were we really forgiven? Were we really "born again"? May be we need to re-dedicate ourselves. Maybe it wasn't real the first time, since we still have this conflict. Something's missing! So we answer another alter call, pray "harder" (whatever that entails), be more "humble", etc. etc. until we throw up our hands.

 

Then we begin to doubt the whole scheme.

 

Until finally, those who somehow were able to find their way through the un-navigable maze point their fingers at us and say "You were never saved!"

 

Small wonder there are those of us who simply said "Bullshit!" to the whole mess.

[nick5]

"it is better to have never been a Christian at all that to have been one and fall away from the faith"

 

Wait a sec. Let me fix that.

 

"it is better to have never been a Christian at all that to have been one"

 

There. All better.

[ShackledNoMore]

Yeah, I was taught that it is possible to lose your salvation, and that you could be "truly saved" and then become damned to hell for all eternity with no hope and no further chance of redemption if you turned away. Fun going through the intermediate stages of deconversion from THAT!

[TheKreativeKat]

The once saved, always saved fundie argument holds about as much water as the argument about how once you have sex with someone you are "spiritually married" to them and have a soul tie. I'm not buying it. I believe that there are people like me who truly believed wholeheartedly they were saved, until they just weren't any more. I didn't "lose" my salvation. I know exactly where it went. I made a conscious choice to renounce Christianity as it no longer had a place in my life. Of course, fundies tell me I'm either in denial and some sort of "closet Christian" rebelling against God or I was never really saved to begin with. Once saved, always saved is yet another unbiblical myth that the Protestant movement created and has propagated and it falls in line with the whole "age of accountability" myth.

[Kuroikaze]

When people tell me I was never really saved, these days, I just point out to them that they are right, because Christian salvation is a myth anyway. Usually shuts them up about that.

[garrisonjj]

Heh - yeah, I recall having problems with this, also. I did the Catholic thing most of my Xian life, and they believe you can lose your salvation by simply turning away from the faith. The Protestants swayed me with their Babblical verses about not being able to lose one's salvation (hyping the super-duper power of Jebus, of course) and I was with them until I found what you cited about being able to fall away.

 

Naturally, much confusion arose, and it wasn't sated until I finally gave Xianity the boot and just accepted the plain truth sitting before my eyes - that the Wholly Babble is nothing but badly-written and clearly un-proofread fiction, chock-full of contradictions.

 

That settled that right quick

 

 

Hey! Don't forget the prodigal son! You know the guy who lived it up ,ate well, fucked everybody and then was welcomed back! Thank god there is hope!

[Everglaze]

OSAS is bullshit. That's like saying one is obligated to faith forever, yet how can anyone guarantee that their mind or heart isn't going to change? It sort of just happens the minute one begins to show initiative for thinking. As for Christians, claiming to be OSAS is like saying they know their heart better than their god does while hiding behind the excuse of faith.

[L.B.]

OSAS = Obviously-Saved-Asshole Science

 

I just LOVE the "la, la, la... can't HEAR youuuuu!" argument that the typical Xtian uses. Show them a person who is supposedly a Xtian that acts shitty towards people and then goes into the 'worship' service, and they'll say, "well, we're not perfect". Show them an avowed atheist who is kind, loving, etc., and they'll make up some shit about 'common grace', or how the influence of Jayzus-fucks in the world makes for a generally nice atmosphere that those hell-bound atheists are privileged to breathe for free... for NOW.

 

Then show them a FORMER Xtian bull-eiver who came out from under his or her fucking rock and found the real world, and they'll either start crying that "they'll come back... I'll praaaaay for them" or "they were never really saved".

 

No matter how you slice it (and it is thick enough to be sliced, for damned sure), the Xtian rationale is always a fucked-up mix of Pollyanna naivete towards their own 'kind', and brutal, arrogant intolerance toward anyone who doesn't fit their frame.

 

Oh, and have I mentioned, FUCK them?

[Deva]

I asked myself the question "How can I be certain that I am saved?" This was after hearing a radio preacher say something like " you can (or must) be certain you are saved." After a certain number of years of deliberation, I came to the conclusion that there was no answer to this question. Then in disgust, I dropped the whole thing.

 

The whole OSAS thing just doesn't even address this important question, does it?

[BlueGiant]

Can't say I buy into OSAS. Some of us believe in backsliding. I, for one, practice it.

[Oldjew]

So they believe once brainwashed you are brain dead and therefore you are hopeless. Well it would seem so but several years ago even before I was born they had a way to save the brain dead hopeless "born again Xians" and clear their minds and deprogram them by true saviors called atheist who awaken the dead brains by a form of shock treatment called the truth by showing all of the contradictions and other bullshit in the silly bible and to show these "once saved" persons that they had been so brainwashed they were not even aware of it.

 

So once brain dead not necessarily is it a permanent condition thanks to modern methods called the "truth."

[BlueGiant]

So they believe once brainwashed you are brain dead and therefore you are hopeless. Well it would seem so but several years ago even before I was born they had a way to save the brain dead hopeless "born again Xians" and clear their minds and deprogram them by true saviors called atheist who awaken the dead brains by a form of shock treatment called the truth by showing all of the contradictions and other bullshit in the silly bible and to show these "once saved" persons that they had been so brainwashed they were not even aware of it.

 

So once brain dead not necessarily is it a permanent condition thanks to modern methods called the "truth."

 

 

...dude, I know that we are supposed to be on the same side. I know that some people like writing stream of consciousness. However, reading it constantly is a rather painful activity. There is no scarcity of punctuation. There is no reason for you not to use it.

 

 

The period is your friend; along with her buddy, the comma. We can introduce you to the others later. Apparently 'and' is getting tired, and is requesting vacation time, which I suggest you grant.

 

Thanks,

The Typographical Union

[Oldjew]

..dude, I know that we are supposed to be on the same side. I know that some people like writing stream of consciousness. However, reading it constantly is a rather painful activity. There is no scarcity of punctuation. There is no reason for you not to use it.

 

 

The period is your friend; along with her buddy, the comma. We can introduce you to the others later. Apparently 'and' is getting tired, and is requesting vacation time, which I suggest you grant.

 

Thanks,

The Typographical Union

 

So whats your point? Are you some kind of perfectionist bend on correcting everyone's posts?

 

I expect that from Christians but not ex-Christians.

 

I'll write the way I want and you write the way you want. I quit Christianity partially because I did not want some one telling me what to do all of the time and now that I am 75 years old I will not let anyone tell me what to do, how to write or what to write.

 

If you don't like how I write then don't read it.

 

[BlueGiant]

Seems you got the point, this was much, much more readable. As far as what you write, I tend to value the experiences of those who have them, and seems you have quite a lot.

 

Formatting, grammar and the like just makes communication between people easier, a standard there keeps things understandable, wouldn't you agree?

[Robbobrob]

OSAS.....I'd like to redefine what I want to be saved from. Death. Don't want to go to Hell, don't want to go to Heaven, don't want to disipate back into the Universe. When God can get around to saving people from bodily Death, then I may want to jump on his bandwagon.

 

OBNS....Once Born, Never Saved. As the old adage goes, as soon as you are born you are dying. So, maybe we should be encouraging Christians to believe....

 

NBAS.....Never Born, Always Saved. That is the only way to protect oneself from "Original Sin" and the chance of going to Hell for all eternity. Imagine Souls telling God..."don't you dare put me in there, I don't want to go, you can't make me, I'm a Physical Plane Objector." If given the choice, then we all came here willingly, and it is our own fault what happens. If forced to by the power of God, how dare He then turn around and punish us for how we decide to deal with this unwanted situation.

 

 

Abortion becomes the most Moral Tool. Can't sin or go to Hell if you are never born.

 

The idiocy of all of this really drives me crazy. Any universal plan that involves a creator who punishes its creation is nonsense and immoral on all levels. If there is more to our existence than life, then that is the "REAL" and this universe is the "IMAGINARY PLAYTIME".

 

I will do everything in my power to keep playing, and not hear my mom call me in for supper, and not see the street lights come on. Not ready to go home. If there is even a home to go to.

[Robbobrob]

Well, that was more rant-y than I intended. Oh well. Playtime is over, back to work.