A Rant Against Mormons.

[Luke Wolf]

At a website I am a moderator at, a thread has been made discussing various death, last rites, and other rituals. A few Mormons brought up thier practice of baptising there dead ancestors. MANY non-mormon members have strongly stressed they do NOT want this to happen to them.

 

For those that don't know, the Mormon practice of baptising a dead ancestor goes like this; Someone converts to Mormonism, and decides to have thier ancestors baptisted, just 'incase they didn't get an oppurtunity to hear to true word of god.' The descendant is baptised in the ancestors place, the ancestors spirit can accept or reject this, the baptism is documented, and no one knows if the soul accepted or rejected this baptism. As you can imagine, some groups, especially the Jews, have some major issues with this practice.

 

The mormon members on this site are so blind, they do not see why someone would not want this. I asked one Mormon member if she thinks that is intrusive of someone's personal believes, and she said 'No.' The other Mormons agreed that it is no big deal.

 

Other members do see this as a big deal, as it is there name that is being associated with Mormonism, and do not want to be baptised, especially after there dead and have no consent if there name is thrown in the church records as baptised. The Mormons are clueless as to why anyone would not want that. One Mormon member even went as far as to make a smart as comment about a "mock baptist," which he proceeded to do a member who is so strongly against the baptism ritual, she views it as black magick. The mod board has even become a warzone over the mock baptism remark, as the mormon mods don't see it as that big of a deal, while the rest of us see it as insulting.

 

Not everyone sees death and last rites as that big of a deal, but some are concerned about there legacy, and view having our name in the Mormon records as being baptised by them would kill our reputation, and be a mark of disgrace.

WHY DO THE MORMONS NOT UNDERSTAND WHY SOME PEOPLE DON'T WANT THIS!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[Robbobrob]

That certainly is a strange, and underhanded, way to gain "converts".

 

This reminds me of when my son was still a baby. His mother is Jewish, and I accept fully that he will be raised Jewish (granted, a cultural Jew, not so much a religious one). Anyway, my mother's family is predominantly Catholic. We hold Easter and Christmas at the CCD center of my uncle's church. And once in a while one of the priests will visit (they live in a house behind the CCD center).

 

One of my aunts asked to hold my son, and proceeded to walk over to the priest and, before me or his mom realized what was going on, she had the priest bless my son.

 

We were anrgy and outraged at this. We were not even asked if it was OK. But others we talked to about it were like, "so what, whats the big deal."

 

But it was. It hurt to have a relative be so uncaring about our known beliefs about our son. The arrogance of faith is a destructive force. I hated her for what she did. It was wrong and rude and to this day disgusts me.

 

So, I fully understand those non-Mormons who were angry.

[Luke Wolf]

God......I can understand why you'd be furious over that.

[woodsmoke]

They don't understand because they're mentally submerged fully into the cult brainwashing. The following paragraphs will almost certainly come across as callous and arrogant, but I'm going to explain it from the point of view of the Mormons among whom I'm still considered (and counted) an inactive member.

 

Inasmuch as the living descendants need to be concerned, it's just a harmless gesture. After all, the soul of the individual in question is free to accept or reject the rite as it so chooses; so if, as those descendants so adamantly claim, s/he wouldn't have wanted to have anything whatsoever to do with the LDS church, the individual's soul will refuse and that will be that. No need to get their knickers in a bunch.

 

On the LDS side of things, however, it's extremely important. They have been commanded by God to preach the gospel to every human inhabitant of the Earth, living or dead. To them, it's not an option for those who may not have had the opportunity to learn about the Mormon gospel in their lifetime, it's an obligation; a commandment of equal importance to those borne by Moses, which they as believers and disciples of the one true organization of God's will on Earth are required to execute and fulfill.

 

So they're not necessarily being arrogant by carrying out these rites (though the act itself is certainly the height of arrogance), especially because the majority of those participating therein can't even fathom the notion descendants of people of other (or no) faiths would take issue with the practice. It's simply a mixture of naivete, ignorance and blind obedience to the orders of their leaders--who in turn receive these orders from God.

 

I'm sure that doesn't do anything to quell the anger and outrage so rightly inspired by the practice, but I hope the knowledge will at least help lend some understanding (and maybe a victory or two, inasmuch as there can be one in most online debates) to the discussion.

[pitchu]

It is a terrible, insufferably narcissistic action.

 

But...

 

Is this even more horrific?

 

From here: http://hnn.us/roundup/comments/9592.html

[bolding mine]

Pope Pius XII And The Saving Of Jewish Children

 

Elaine Sciolino and Jason Horowitz, The New York Times, 1/9/05

 

In October 1946, just a year after the defeat of the Nazis, the Vatican weighed in on one of the most painful episodes of the postwar era: the refusal to allow Jewish children who had been sheltered by Catholics during the war to return to their own families and communities.

 

A newly disclosed directive on the this subject provides written confirmation of well-known church policy and practices at the time, particularly toward Jewish children who had been baptized, often to save them from perishing at the hands of the Nazis. Its tone is cold and impersonal, and it makes no mention of the horrors of the Holocaust.

 

Its disclosure has reopened a raw debate on the World War II role of the Catholic Church and of Pope Pius XII, a candidate for sainthood who has been excoriated by his critics as a heartless anti-Semite who maintained a public silence on the Nazi death camps and praised by his supporters as a savior of Jewish lives.

 

The one-page, typewritten directive, dated Oct. 23, 1946, was discovered in a French church archive outside Paris and made available to The New York Times on the condition that the source would not be disclosed. It is a list of instructions for French authorities on how to deal with demands from Jewish officials who want to reclaim Jewish children.

 

''Children who have been baptized must not be entrusted to institutions that would not be in a position to guarantee their Christian upbringing,'' the directive says.

 

It also contains an order not to allow Jewish children who had been baptized Catholic to go home to their own parents. ''If the children have been turned over by their parents, and if the parents reclaim them now, providing that the children have not received baptism, they can be given back,'' it says.

 

This has been a practice noted throughout the conjoined histories of Catholics and Jews, but it reached its zenith (nadir?) with this proclamation, which was clearly meant for all European Catholics who sheltered and baptized Jewish children during the holocaust.

[woodsmoke]

Hell, even that's old hat for the RCC. I remember in the Inquisition special done on PBS a few months ago they told the same story, that it was and had been common practice for the church to forcibly remove (unwillingly) baptized youths of other (or no) faiths, brainwash them and raise them as catholics, never again to see or meet their family.

 

The LDS practice of baptisms for the dead is just one more lump of refuse on the towering trash heap of Christianity.

[Lycorth]

The LDS practice of baptisms for the dead is just one more lump of refuse on the towering trash heap of Christianity.

 

Heh - you can say that again. Talk about living in a fairy-tale world

 

The Mormons, the RCC, etc - forcing their religion on others is a time-honored Xian tradition that knows no sect.