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R. S. Martin
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It seems one problem word was ridicule. To ridicule means to make fun of.

 

The question has been raised by atheists on here as to why some people dump the Christian god in exchange for some other deity. I can't speak for anyone else and at the moment I don't think there is "somthing" out there. But I sure know why one would believe there is. There is just as much evidence that there is than that there isn't. Not all mindsets will accept this but that does not change reality. Reality is that we are not all made the same. If you have problems appreciating the very vast differences that exist in our psychological make-up, read a good Myers-Briggs book such as David Kiersey's Please Understand Me. Be very careful not to mark it up to someone's imagination when/if you read something that seems too "out there" because all sixteen Myers-Briggs types are valid and legitimate, no matter how uncomfortable I personally am with one or another type. Also, every last one of those types are pleasant if the individual is well-balanced psychologically, i.e. has sufficient self-esteem, etc. Large egos indicate a lack of self-esteem.

 

So why would we take up a different god if we have dumped the Christian biblegod? Easy. Some of us have such a psychological make-up (and I don't claim that this is due to Myers-Briggs) that we just know it. We can feel a presence, or other sensations, that prove it. I think evidence exists that the majority of people cannot "feel a presence," etc. But we should not rule out the people who cannot help but feel it. There are such people; I am one of them. Perhaps there is a physiological explanation. I think there is. But I think it is wrong to take away the calming effect of trusting that there is a God out there taking care of oneself.

 

People who have this inner sensation are very seriously sensitive people and are hurt very deeply by any ridicule. Life for these people is already very difficult because every little bump is a dagger in the heart--this is not something they can control anymore than others can control being so insensitive. It is totally cruel for anyone to suggest that the one thing that does help them cope in life is "nothing but imagination." Just because you or I can't feel it does not make it unreal or illegitimate. The fact that you can't feel it (if you are one of those people) does not give you a right to ridicule the hyper-sensitive people. That is like breaking someone's leg because you don't like their specific pace. One thing the less sensitive people can do is learn the rules of what hurts another person.

 

I will repeat some of the key points:

 

  1. If you have problems appreciating the very vast differences that exist in our psychological make-up, read a good Myers-Briggs book such as David Kiersey's Please Understand Me.
  2. There are such [hyper-sensitive] people; I am one of them.
  3. People who have this inner sensation are very seriously sensitive people and are hurt very deeply by any ridicule.
  4. Life for these people is already very difficult because every little bump is a dagger in the heart--this is not something they can control anymore than others can control being so insensitive.
  5. The fact that you can't feel it (if you are one of those people) does not give you a right to ridicule the hyper-sensitive people. That is like breaking someone's leg because you don't like their specific pace.
  6. One thing the less sensitive people can do is learn the rules of what hurts another person.

For your information, this thread was NOT started because I needed it.

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That, and those Atheists who get a bug up their butts about ex-xians taking up other gods clearly haven't evolved past the need, deeply instilled in modern Western culture thanks to Xianity, to make everyone else think like they do.

 

So long as people aren't worshipping tyrannical, oppressive gods nor promoting religions encouraging the same, people shouldn't worry about it. There are more important things to focus on.

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People who have this inner sensation are very seriously sensitive people and are hurt very deeply by any ridicule.

Do you make a distinction between ridicule and healthy, constructive criticism Ruby?

 

One thing the less sensitive people can do is learn the rules of what hurts another person.

This strikes me as reasonable. It also seems reasonable to me that people who are unable or unwilling to expose their ideas to criticism can refrain from making them public.

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People who have this inner sensation are very seriously sensitive people and are hurt very deeply by any ridicule.

Do you make a distinction between ridicule and healthy, constructive criticism Ruby?

 

One thing the less sensitive people can do is learn the rules of what hurts another person.

This strikes me as reasonable. It also seems reasonable to me that people who are unable or unwilling to expose their ideas to criticism can refrain from making them public.

 

 

Okay I will. Have a good day.

Ah c'mon Ruby. Please don't be that way. I'm just saying that if ideas are going to be expressed in the public domain then criticism is to be expected.

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Ruby I actually agree with much of what you are saying. The difference is I'm not trying to change other people's behavior as you seem to be trying to do. When I grow weary of those that paint all religious people as being bad then I simply walk away. I take a break from it all.

 

I know good people who also happen to be Christian. I don't let the fact that they are Christians foul up the potential for a good relationship.

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LOL :HaHa: You're reacting exactly as I had hoped.

 

All I'm doing is driving home your point. If you don't like it you shouldn't have posted it. By your own word, this is very reasonable.

You didn't criticise my ideas. You disengaged from the conversation. And I might add without an attempt to answer the questions that I posed.

 

Do you make a distinction between ridicule and constructive criticism?

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Oh. So now I'm a bad guy. I see.

I don't think you're bad Ruby. I'm just beginning to believe that you may have some control issues. If it is true that you have control issues then I wish you the best as you work through them.

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Ruby I actually agree with much of what you are saying. The difference is I'm not trying to change other people's behavior as you seem to be trying to do. When I grow weary of those that paint all religious people as being bad then I simply walk away. I take a break from it all.

 

I know good people who also happen to be Christian. I don't let the fact that they are Christians foul up the potential for a good relationship.

 

Oh. So now I'm a bad guy. I see.

 

No, but you are doing a wonderful job of misrepresenting and manipulating his statements to make him look like one.

 

I'm not as nice as Legion, so I'll come right out and say it. That's the kind of shady, dishonest behavior we expect from fundamentalists.

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Ruby your avatar is a wall. Okay. That says a lot to me.

 

I've feel like I've bent over backwards to be kind to you in this thread. I feel that I can do no more.

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Meaning no disrespect, Ruby, it seems clear you desperately need to know the first rule of online discussion.

 

A thick skin is absolutely necessary. "Sensitive toes" are to (especially online) debaters what fear is to dogs. A thin skin exudes a virtually palpable aura of vulnerability which, for better or worse, seems to awaken the predator in many people.

 

I'm not saying that makes them right in attacking someone ill-prepared for it, it's simply a harsh reality.

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I am not going to refrain from questioning the validity of religious faith on the chance that my doing so might offend the sensibilities of those who are more spiritual and sensitive than I am.

 

Questioning does not equate to ridicule, by the way.

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I am asking to have this thread deleted.

Seriously?

I move that the thread should stand as is. But of course I will bow to whatever decision the mods make.

 

I think that Ruby could have simply asked something to the effect of...

 

"Why can't we treat those with religious convictions with wisdom and compassion?"

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I am asking to have this thread deleted.

Seriously?

I move that the thread should stand as is. But of course I will bow to whatever decision the mods make.

I'll leave it for now. After all, "Rants and Replies" is a section where people will "Rant" and will get serious "Replies"... so message to both sides: grow a thick skin. (I think that's Kevin's aka Nivek aka SkipNChurch aka "tinhat" :) expression.)

 

I think that Ruby could have simply asked something to the effect of...

 

"Why can't we treat those with religious convictions with wisdom and compassion?"

Maybe we can't... ;)

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Tossing my tinfoilhatted opinion in, that this is a thread d i s cuss ing, heavy emph. on *cuss*, the ability to toss hard subjects out on floor, take shots at it back and forth.

 

Rants is the best place at finding a target to engage and fire for effect... Seems this particular subject is drawing fire.

 

What I'd want folks to KNOW is that we can tear apart the ideas, ideals, thoughts of others without becoming too involved in fucking over the person behind the post.

 

Indeed the first Rule of INteRnuTT PosTInG simply is: "Have or obtain a thick skin, obtain asbestos undergarments, they WILL be tested by fire".

Hell that was a fuckin' Rule postulated back in 95-ish in the 9600 BBS only boards.. (Mod? What is a ##4(***!!!## %%&&**!! MOD??)

 

Anyway, civility in strife is the hallmark of either learnin' sumthin', or capitulation in face of overwhelming informational overload..

 

Prefer that ExC work on the larnin' sumethin' end of curves..

 

k, tinfoilhat on, double wrapped, shiny side out, ear prongs aligned with Jupiter and mars, FL

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I don't know what the problem was/is. But when people start leaving then we know something is wrong. So if you think questioning is okay, here goes: Why do you think it is okay to ride rough-shod over a person who is more sensitive than you? Or less firmly established in their beliefs? Or just plain unable to put their convictions into words that make sense to you? Perhaps you are unware of it, but this kind of attitude makes no sense. That is why I am asking you for answers.

 

The bolded part of your question is quite the straw man. It in no way reflects what I think.

 

I think it is perfectly fine to question a person's religious faith or spiritual experiences. Such things should not be off-limits, though they may entail some potentially difficult or upsetting discussions. My motivation for questioning belief is as much for my own enlightenment, as it is a challenge to the questionee.

 

Do you, in fact, equate "questioning" with "riding rough-shod"? If so, is that because the two are in fact equal, or might it stem from a dislike of having your beliefs questioned at all?

 

If you do not equate the two, would you please explain why you phrased the bolded part of your question as you did? I would not like to assume that you intended insult, but a strawman like that is highly insulting nonetheless. If you would care to explain, I will appreciate it. Thanks.

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"

"Why can't we treat those with religious convictions with wisdom and compassion?"

 

Simple... lot here are damaged goods. The reason they're here is that a lot want moral support in getting out of the abusive relationship that is 'The Church'. Some of us are at the stage where 'any and all religion is bad'... I have days like that myself... it's like a slave escaping one master for another... or serial abused spouses... Others, I can see that it's a step up out of the hole, and that some people need some form of 'greater being', from Brahman to Wotan to a 'Caring Universe'... if they need it, that's fine... whatever gets you to the end of another day having not killed anyone... However, to expect a fully 'smooth' ride saying 'I'm following Osris these days...' on a support board for Cult escapees is not really thinking it through...

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"Have or obtain a thick skin, obtain asbestos undergarments, they WILL be tested by fire".

Amen Kevin. All praise Browning.

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"

"Why can't we treat those with religious convictions with wisdom and compassion?"

 

Simple... lot here are damaged goods. The reason they're here is that a lot want moral support in getting out of the abusive relationship that is 'The Church'. Some of us are at the stage where 'any and all religion is bad'... I have days like that myself... it's like a slave escaping one master for another... or serial abused spouses... Others, I can see that it's a step up out of the hole, and that some people need some form of 'greater being', from Brahman to Wotan to a 'Caring Universe'... if they need it, that's fine... whatever gets you to the end of another day having not killed anyone... However, to expect a fully 'smooth' ride saying 'I'm following Osris these days...' on a support board for Cult escapees is not really thinking it through...

 

Thank you. That answers my question.

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"

"Why can't we treat those with religious convictions with wisdom and compassion?"

 

Simple... lot here are damaged goods. The reason they're here is that a lot want moral support in getting out of the abusive relationship that is 'The Church'. Some of us are at the stage where 'any and all religion is bad'... I have days like that myself... it's like a slave escaping one master for another... or serial abused spouses... Others, I can see that it's a step up out of the hole, and that some people need some form of 'greater being', from Brahman to Wotan to a 'Caring Universe'... if they need it, that's fine... whatever gets you to the end of another day having not killed anyone... However, to expect a fully 'smooth' ride saying 'I'm following Osris these days...' on a support board for Cult escapees is not really thinking it through...

I understand that Gramps. I guess I went through my deconversion at a relatively young age. I remember well the anger that I harbored towards Christianity during the process. But I no longer feel that way. I'm not angry at it anymore. I've moved on.

 

I suspect that many of the more angry ex-Cs here are just passing through that same phase. I suspect in time their anger too will pass.

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I don't know what the problem was/is. But when people start leaving then we know something is wrong. So if you think questioning is okay, here goes: Why do you think it is okay to ride rough-shod over a person who is more sensitive than you? Or less firmly established in their beliefs? Or just plain unable to put their convictions into words that make sense to you? Perhaps you are unware of it, but this kind of attitude makes no sense. That is why I am asking you for answers.

 

The bolded part of your question is quite the straw man. It in no way reflects what I think.

 

.....................

 

If you do not equate the two, would you please explain why you phrased the bolded part of your question as you did? I would not like to assume that you intended insult, but a strawman like that is highly insulting nonetheless. If you would care to explain, I will appreciate it. Thanks.

 

 

 

 

That's a false accusation if ever there was one. Nothing is more insulting than being told my questions don't count. And that is what a whole batch of people are doing on this thread and nobody cares. You know I live in the city and that there is no straw in the city. I couldn't make a strawman if I wanted to. So what you are telling me is that my questions don't count and that they're nothing but straw.

 

 

I think it is perfectly fine to question a person's religious faith or spiritual experiences. Such things should not be off-limits, though they may entail some potentially difficult or upsetting discussions. My motivation for questioning belief is as much for my own enlightenment, as it is a challenge to the questionee.

 

Same here. However, given how utterly devastating it can be to be forced to leave one's community, I think you are pretty heartless for not caring how a person feels who has found an alternative god belief. As I explain in the op (which you obviosuly read because you posted when it was still up), there is lots of evidence or reason to believe there is. To discount this is to discount human beings. And that is what people here apparently are all about.

 

Do you, in fact, equate "questioning" with "riding rough-shod"? If so, is that because the two are in fact equal, or might it stem from a dislike of having your beliefs questioned at all?

 

It could not possibly mean that because I love talking about my beliefs. Anyone who has been reading my posts knows that. The fact that a whole batch of poeple here pretend not to know that tells me nobody here cares about anyone.

 

hope i get killed good and dead next time i go on the street but it wobn't happen besause i wished this nearlt all mylife, and i just never get luckt that way

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I don't know what the problem was/is. But when people start leaving then we know something is wrong. So if you think questioning is okay, here goes: Why do you think it is okay to ride rough-shod over a person who is more sensitive than you? Or less firmly established in their beliefs? Or just plain unable to put their convictions into words that make sense to you? Perhaps you are unware of it, but this kind of attitude makes no sense. That is why I am asking you for answers.

 

The bolded part of your question is quite the straw man. It in no way reflects what I think.

 

.....................

 

If you do not equate the two, would you please explain why you phrased the bolded part of your question as you did? I would not like to assume that you intended insult, but a strawman like that is highly insulting nonetheless. If you would care to explain, I will appreciate it. Thanks.

 

 

 

 

That's a false accusation if ever there was one. Nothing is more insulting than being told my questions don't count. And that is what a whole batch of people are doing on this thread and nobody cares. You know I live in the city and that there is no straw in the city. I couldn't make a strawman if I wanted to. So what you are telling me is that my questions don't count and that they're nothing but straw.

 

 

I think it is perfectly fine to question a person's religious faith or spiritual experiences. Such things should not be off-limits, though they may entail some potentially difficult or upsetting discussions. My motivation for questioning belief is as much for my own enlightenment, as it is a challenge to the questionee.

 

Same here. However, given how utterly devastating it can be to be forced to leave one's community, I think you are pretty heartless for not caring how a person feels who has found an alternative god belief. As I explain in the op (which you obviosuly read because you posted when it was still up), there is lots of evidence or reason to believe there is. To discount this is to discount human beings. And that is what people here apparently are all about.

 

Do you, in fact, equate "questioning" with "riding rough-shod"? If so, is that because the two are in fact equal, or might it stem from a dislike of having your beliefs questioned at all?

 

It could not possibly mean that because I love talking about my beliefs. Anyone who has been reading my posts knows that. The fact that a whole batch of poeple here pretend not to know that tells me nobody here cares about anyone.

 

hope i get killed good and dead next time i go on the street but it wobn't happen besause i wished this nearlt all mylife, and i just never get luckt that way

 

 

Ruby,

 

I'm sorry that you feel as though no one cares, you know most of us here well enough to know that's not the case. This statement above, is a manipulative statement that is said for no other reason then to incite a guilt trip on people who just simply questioned you. Your public display of a pity-party is childish and unwarranted.

 

From where I sit people give you more of a pass then any other poster on this site. You take most statements made in the literal context, surly you know that Gwen didn't literally mean a man made from straw. You contrive the most innocent of things said... as an attack on you. This allows you to be a victim of your own interpretations, or rather misinterpretations. Many people attempt to help you, but unfortunately Ruby you only welcome what you want to hear, and if you feel someone is not giving you what you want to hear, you paint their statements as full blown attacks. Not one person attacked you on this thread, not one.

 

Your angry, I understand that. Perhaps you should follow your own advice you gave to wood or LR (I forget which one) that was posted but has since been deleted. You want everyone to give 100% to understand you and feel for you. How much do you give in return of what you expect from others on this board? I'm not angry at you Ruby but someone has to say it. This death wish statement you posted is absolute manipulation to the highest degree, I expected better from you. Statements like this are not made by confident secure people. When all else fails in an argument behave in a manor that will shock and awe I suppose. I'm extremely disappointed in this spoiled brat attitude you have developed. You deserve a time out, you should log off and reflect.

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next time you hate a person as much as the batch of you have obviously hated me for the past ten months do them the courtesy of not lying to them about how much you love them.

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That's a false accusation if ever there was one. Nothing is more insulting than being told my questions don't count. And that is what a whole batch of people are doing on this thread and nobody cares. You know I live in the city and that there is no straw in the city. I couldn't make a strawman if I wanted to. So what you are telling me is that my questions don't count and that they're nothing but straw.

 

Are you serious?

 

In reality, what I'm telling you is that you are unwittingly using a logical fallacy called the straw man argument. It is a misrepresentation of an opponent's argument or position. You are continuing to use it in the above paragraph by informing me that I am telling you that your questions don't count, when I have in fact done nothing of the sort. (Nor would I.)

 

Your questions "count" here as much as anyone's. It's your passive-aggressive attitude that people are having a problem with.

 

Same here. However, given how utterly devastating it can be to be forced to leave one's community, I think you are pretty heartless for not caring how a person feels who has found an alternative god belief. As I explain in the op (which you obviosuly read because you posted when it was still up), there is lots of evidence or reason to believe there is. To discount this is to discount human beings. And that is what people here apparently are all about.

 

Your capacity for misrepresenting my opinions is remarkable, especially when I haven't actually been that forthcoming about them in this thread. With so little to go on, I have to wonder where you're getting your impressions from.

 

In reality, I care a great deal about other people's emotions and experiences. (This is why I like to participate in fora such as this one.) It is true, however, that I care more about finding out the truth - and about intellectual integrity - than I do about the delicacy of people's feelings. While I would not ridicule someone interested in having an honest discussion, I refuse to be silent about challenging a belief I find untenable. If that makes me heartless, so be it.

 

To discount your (or anyone's) evidence or argument for or against the existence of god is to discount the argument alone. Nothing more, nothing less. If you feel the need to turn it into a personal attack on "human beings", then that's your prerogative. I have no control over your perspective.

 

It could not possibly mean that because I love talking about my beliefs. Anyone who has been reading my posts knows that. The fact that a whole batch of poeple here pretend not to know that tells me nobody here cares about anyone.

 

I know that you love talking about your beliefs. For the most part, I have enjoyed reading about them. It's unfortunate that you've chosen to adopt a defensive, passive-aggressive, manipulative, martyrlike stance for this thread. It makes actual dialogue with you very, very difficult.

 

hope i get killed good and dead next time i go on the street but it wobn't happen besause i wished this nearlt all mylife, and i just never get luckt that way

 

I am sorry you are feeling this way. I would not wish such a thing on you. If you are feeling suicidal, I highly recommend contacting your local suicide crisis hotline. Participation in heated discussions on web fora can be intense, but should not result in self-destructive feelings. If you need to take time out from posting in order to care for your mental health, I am sure that folks here will understand and support whatever measures you need to take in order to heal. Take care.

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next time you hate a person as much as the batch of you have obviously hated me for the past ten months do them the courtesy of not lying to them about how much you love them.

 

If I remember correctly it was Dale Carnegy who told this story:

 

An old man was standing on the street corner one day when a man drove up in a moving van. The man in the van asked the old man "So, how are the people in this town?" The old man replied with a question "How were the people in the town you just moved from?" The driver of the moving van said, "Oh, they were wonderful people. I had many friends there and I was sad to leave." The old man replied, "You will find that people here are very friendly as well."

 

A few days later a second man in a moving van spotted the old man and stopped. The man in the van asked the old man "So, how are the people in this town?" The old man replied with a question "How were the people in the town you just moved from?" The driver of the moving van said, "They were a miserable bunch. I couldn't wait to get out of that place." The old man replied, "You will people here are much the same."

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