Only Christians Can Love?

[TheKreativeKat]

I have been in debates before about marriages between non-christians. I have been told that my marriage is based on lust and not love because only two Christians know how to truly love one another. Here are some quotes from various websites about love:

 

The definition of true love is "God is Love." Unless God is brought into a marriage they will never experience true love. People can experience an emotional feeling we call "love", however this is only one aspect of love in a marriage. The kind of love that is needed for any marriage to be successful is the the God kind of love because this love is not a selfish love.

 

You won’t be able to truly, unconditionally love your spouse without having the love of God poured out in your heart by the Holy Spirit.

 

*snip* *snip*

 

Can you imagine the joy we would experience in marriage if both partners were truly more interested in serving the other rather than himself/herself?  It’s within our grasp – but only when both partners have the transforming power of Jesus Christ in their lives.

 

Christians believe they hold the monopoly on true love. If someone does not have the perfect love of Christ within them, how could they possibly demonstrate unconditional love for oterhs? That is their usual defense. Basically, since us nonnies do not have the love of Christ within us, how can emulate true love? Of course, the burden of proof is on them. Is God really love? How does God demonstrate his perfect benevolence throughout the Bible? Is it true love to send your own children into the flames of hell for all eternity? How do Christians demonstrate this love for their spouses, children, friends and non-christians?

[Antlerman]

I have been in debates before about marriages between non-christians. I have been told that my marriage is based on lust and not love because only two Christians know how to truly love one another. Here are some quotes from various websites about love:

 

The definition of true love is "God is Love." Unless God is brought into a marriage they will never experience true love. People can experience an emotional feeling we call "love", however this is only one aspect of love in a marriage. The kind of love that is needed for any marriage to be successful is the the God kind of love because this love is not a selfish love.

This is pathetic. The presumption so brazenly thick in this statement based on a logic argument only is so arrogant as to preclude themselves eternally, so to speak, from having clue number one what love is, let alone experience it in their lives. It is an argument for love based on reason. It is the very judgment of others from their self imagined mount of superior humanity than demonstrates, not a love from God, but arrogance and ignorance. Like they say, "Where's the humble?"

 

 

You won’t be able to truly, unconditionally love your spouse without having the love of God poured out in your heart by the Holy Spirit.

 

*snip* *snip*

 

Can you imagine the joy we would experience in marriage if both partners were truly more interested in serving the other rather than himself/herself? It’s within our grasp – but only when both partners have the transforming power of Jesus Christ in their lives.

It's this sort of ignorance of what being human is that precludes them knowing how healthy relationships work, and sends them looking for clues in a "Love in a Box" solution in their religious system to grapple with the mystery of love. You must first love yourself. Period. If you don't love yourself, you cannot give to others the beauty of your own joy, and share their joy from themselves in your life. To be selfless, must first come from being selfish, or better stated respecting yourself. This is not sin.

 

Can someone know joy in their lives without turning to a religious system for rules of how to be alive? Absolutely. My salvation, my born-again, new life began when I stood up and became a human. Now I am free to choose to love from myself, and not out of submissive obedience to some Ogre in the sky. To tell yourself you are crap, and have nothing to offer but from what comes from some source outside yourself is a disservice to the light that is uniquely yours, and can never be known if you are bowing low before some God out there.

 

The transforming power of humanity is not found in looking up to some sky-god, but the power of freedom and loving yourself. I am free to love by my choice alone. I have no obligation to do so, nor do those who choose to share their love with me. No Christian can claim this, as they are obligated to submit their wills to each other as they together submit to their master who prescribes how they should behave in the presence of his holiness. They are both ugly and unworthy without their god. This is a gross offense against the beauty of each human being.

 

I know both sides of this definition of love they give, and can say quite strongly that they speak with authority about something beyond their grasp. They view human love as not beautiful. This is a shame.

[TheKreativeKat]

You must first love yourself. Period. If you don't love yourself, you cannot give to others the beauty of your own joy, and share their joy from themselves in your life.

 

Exactly. The only way a Christian can come to salvation is by first recognizing that they are disgusting, vile, pathetic human beings. I've heard Christians say, "I was nothing, a nobody before I came to know Jesus." What a sad opinion they have of themselves, a sentiment that is echoed throughout the Bible. The Bible talks of how good deeds are as filthy rags in God's eyes. Man is inherently "wicked". It's sad because these Christians honestly believe that before they came to Christianity, even if they were the most good-hearted and moral people, that they were still disgusting human beings, lower than dirt in God's eyes.

 

No Christian can claim this, as they are obligated to submit their wills to each other as they together submit to their master who prescribes how they should behave in the presence of his holiness. They are both ugly and unworthy without their god. This is a gross offense against the beauty of each human being.

 

Again, I agree 100%. Christians cannot grasp the concept of selfless love because their love is obligatory. Nine times out of ten they have a terrible misconception of what love truly is and are simply going around telling people they "love everyone" in order to be in accordance with the teachings of their sacred text. Christians claim they love everyone in the world, even people like Osama Bin Laden, because that is God's commandment to them. I say this is not possible. It is impossible to extend that sort of love to those you do not know. They believe they can separate loving the person, but hating their shortcomings (love the sinner, hate their sin). That sort of unconditional, universal love for total strangers is not possible. We love our children even when they make mistakes because we have an unconditional love for them. How many parents who are religious have disowned their sons for being gay or their daughters for getting pregnant out of wedlock? I know people who have.

 

I went to church with a couple who went so far as to refer to their son as an only child. I would later discover that they had another son who was older and was gay. They disowned him and their shame was so profound over their sons's "abominable sin" that they acted as if he had never existed in the first place. When confronted about why they denied their own child, his mother's exact words were, "God's commands are more important than anything else. We are held under accountability to God and obedience to him, first and foremost. Our son is an unrepentent sodomite and the Bible commands us to not associate ourselves with people of that sort. Besides, if we let him into our home we'd be giving the appearance of evil to others and sending him the message that we condoned his perversion." I had never witnessed anything so despicable in my life and suddenly I realized that many Christians do not love others the way they claim they do and they use God and obedience to him as an excuse to judge, condemn and shun others who don't tow the line morally.

[ShackledNoMore]

If you google for divorce rate by religion, you'll find that the divorce rate is higher for xians than for atheists, and that among xians, the divorce rate seems to appear proportional to the the amount of religious emphasis of the cult.

 

If the premise were true, it would seem rather perplexing that a higher divorce rate correlates to this "true love" that only xians are capable of, wouldn't you say?

[TheKreativeKat]

The statistics are very disturbing, Shackled; however, I wonder if the reason the number of divorced Christians is higher than divorced Atheists is because the number of Christians in America is substantially higher than Atheists. But it is still very telling that Christians are not exempt from marital troubles. I find that there is a very high percentage of domestic abuse, infidelity, pornography addiction and other serious problems among Christian families.

[Antlerman]

From here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

A recent study by the Barna Research Group throws extreme doubt on these estimates. Barna released the results of their poll about divorce on 1999-DEC-21. 1 They had interviewed 3,854 adults from the 48 contiguous states. The margin of error is within 2 percentage points. The survey found:

 

11% of the adult population is currently divorced.

25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime.

Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significently higher than for other faith groups, and for Atheists and Agnostics.

 

George Barna, president and founder of Barna Research Group, commented:

 

"While it may be alarming to discover that born again Christians are more likely than others to experience a divorce, that pattern has been in place for quite some time. Even more disturbing, perhaps, is that when those individuals experience a divorce many of them feel their community of faith provides rejection rather than support and healing. But the research also raises questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families. The ultimate responsibility for a marriage belongs to the husband and wife, but the high incidence of divorce within the Christian community challenges the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriages."

Variation in divorce rates among Christian faith groups:

Denomination (in order of decreasing divorce rate) % who have been divorced

Non-denominational (small conservative groups; independents) 34%

Baptists 29%

Mainline Protestants 25%

Mormons 24%

Catholics 21%

Lutherans 21%

 

Barna's results verified findings of earlier polls: that conservative Protestant Christians, on average, have the highest divorce rate, while mainline Christians have a much lower rate. They found some new information as well: that atheists and agnostics have the lowest divorce rate of all. George Barna commented that the results raise "questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families." The data challenge "the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriage."

 

Donald Hughes, author of The Divorce Reality, said:

 

"In the churches, people have a superstitious view that Christianity will keep them from divorce, but they are subject to the same problems as everyone else, and they include a lack of relationship skills. ...Just being born again is not a rabbit's foot."

 

Hughes claim that 90% of divorces among born-again couples occur after they have been "saved."

 

Variation in divorce rates by religion:

Religion % have been divorced

Jews 30%

Born-again Christians 27%

Other Christians 24%

Atheists, Agnostics 21%

 

Ron Barrier, Spokespersonn for American Atheists remarked on these findings with some rather caustic comments against organized religion. He said:

 

"These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky.

With Atheism, women and men are equally responsible for a healthy marriage. There is no room in Atheist ethics for the type of 'submissive' nonsense preached by Baptists and other Christian and/or Jewish groups.

Atheists reject, and rightly so, the primitive patriarchal attitudes so prevalent in many religions with respect to marriage." 2

 

What can I say? Proof's in the pudding.

[Legion]

I have been told that my marriage is based on lust and not love because only two Christians know how to truly love one another.

That assertion is so ludicrous as to make it nearly unworthy of comment in my opinion.

[Former Follier]

Well, since Christians do exemplify God's Love it is safe to say that statistics would undoubtedly show a healthy dose of believers suffering from "battered spouse syndrome" just as God intended. What has Brother Jeff to say on the topic? "Glory!", perhaps?

[Lycorth]

As has been said, many Xians think they have a monopoly on love, or at least on the "proper" understanding of it. It derives from the snobbish elitism Xianity encourages in its followers as well as the depictions of its demonic god as the source of all wisdom and goodness.

 

Sometimes, one would think Xians have a monopoly on arrogance, but even that's not true

[Taphophilia]

I think this is tied to their belief that anything "good" is god and anything "bad" is Satan. They consider anyone who doesn't subscribe to their beliefs listening to "the father of lies." So, they have the truth and all good. We have only lies and all bad. Aren't they supposed to have the Holy Spirit in their hearts and are now a "new creation"? So how come they experience bad things also, anger, sadness, disappointment, etc. By their logic, only we should.

[R. S. Martin]

Taph, their logic is deeply flawed. I was going to mention the xians' belief about having the monopoly on things like true love and purity but Varokhar beat me to it. I don't know if I'm right, but often I get the feeling that their descriptions of "the world" is a reflection of their own private wishes and desires. I get this feeling because the only places where I actually see these sinister traits lived out on a large scale is the people who make these blanket statements about "the world" or heathen.

 

Then there is also this kind of reasoning they indulge in: If we who consciously live a godly life have so much trouble with purity, itis no wonder that things are so bad among the heathen.

 

PROBLEM: They never design the tests or do the stats to actually prove or disprove their blanket statements and assumptions. They do keep a selective eye on the news and thereby "prove" their statements, assumptions, and beliefs.

[Ramen666]

Sounds like propganda that just seperates more and more people. This ideology can really fuck you up big time what people need to realize that people do have oposing views. My opinion I would marry a Christian for that matter as long as we can agree to disagree. ( I would go to church for her) I am not a selfish bitch but these ideologies trully scare me in many ways.

[Guest fghnb]

Sounds like propganda that just seperates more and more people. This ideology can really fuck you up big time what people need to realize that people do have oposing views. My opinion I would marry a Christian for that matter as long as we can agree to disagree. ( I would go to church for her) I am not a selfish bitch but these ideologies trully scare me in many ways.

 

Damn! you have an ugly spirit like that damn ugly picture you posted. I CAN'T STAND LOOKING AT YOU!!! TOO DISGUSTING

[Guest fghnb]

Sounds like propganda that just seperates more and more people. This ideology can really fuck you up big time what people need to realize that people do have oposing views. My opinion I would marry a Christian for that matter as long as we can agree to disagree. ( I would go to church for her) I am not a selfish bitch but these ideologies trully scare me in many ways.

 

Damn! you have an ugly spirit like that damn ugly picture you posted. I CAN'T STAND LOOKING AT YOU!!! TOO DISGUSTING

 

 

Sorry, this post goes to show poster is Double Super Secret Probationary Stupid..

 

kFL

[Deva]

Damn! you have an ugly spirit like that damn ugly picture you posted. I CAN'T STAND LOOKING AT YOU!!! TOO DISGUSTING

 

Who asked you? Why don't you address the topic in question, or just leave? Or do you have anything interesting or productive to add? Since you say your god is "Jesus", we would like to hear your take on what love truly is.

 

I say Christians have a weird, twisted notion of what love is. They love someone who agrees with their dogma. but everyone else-- well, they say they love the unbelievers, but do their actions show this?

[Japedo]

Damn! you have an ugly spirit like that damn ugly picture you posted. I CAN'T STAND LOOKING AT YOU!!! TOO DISGUSTING

 

 

Another Christian who has trouble following the posted rules. How about being different from other cult members and post something of substance that actually addresses the topic at hand?

 

This section is for more serious debate. Although this section is not as formal as "The Arena," all posts should remain "on topic" at all times.

[Japedo]

Christians believe they hold the monopoly on true love. If someone does not have the perfect love of Christ within them, how could they possibly demonstrate unconditional love for oterhs? That is their usual defense. Basically, since us nonnies do not have the love of Christ within us, how can emulate true love? Of course, the burden of proof is on them. Is God really love? How does God demonstrate his perfect benevolence throughout the Bible? Is it true love to send your own children into the flames of hell for all eternity? How do Christians demonstrate this love for their spouses, children, friends and non-christians?

 

 

Christians believe a lot of things that aren't true. Attempt to point out the obvious "love" is that of an abuser will incite anger and rage from the victims of the cult (aka Members) . Love me or Die, Do as I say or Die and the victims of the cult will defend the abuser and the dogma with their very last breath. Some will even kill for the cult and believe the death of the perceived 'evil' being (disdainer of the dogma) is righteous.

 

The cult is quite opposite of what it claims. Like all cults, Many people who are sucked into the cult do so because they have self esteem issues, or feel they need someone to tell them how to live.. as if they aren't capable themselves. Many like to view themselves as helpless victims in the game of life and want some spiritual lotto ticket to ensure their great reward and castle in the sky. As I say to any xtian who proclaims they know the Truth ™ I wouldn't take this type of "Love" from a human, forget a god.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Sounds like propganda that just seperates more and more people. This ideology can really fuck you up big time what people need to realize that people do have oposing views. My opinion I would marry a Christian for that matter as long as we can agree to disagree. ( I would go to church for her) I am not a selfish bitch but these ideologies trully scare me in many ways.

 

Damn! you have an ugly spirit like that damn ugly picture you posted. I CAN'T STAND LOOKING AT YOU!!! TOO DISGUSTING

 

 

Post goes to show this poster is now single stupid...

 

kFL

[Lycorth]

Sounds like propganda that just seperates more and more people. This ideology can really fuck you up big time what people need to realize that people do have oposing views. My opinion I would marry a Christian for that matter as long as we can agree to disagree. ( I would go to church for her) I am not a selfish bitch but these ideologies trully scare me in many ways.

 

Damn! you have an ugly spirit like that damn ugly picture you posted. I CAN'T STAND LOOKING AT YOU!!! TOO DISGUSTING

 

Yes - more examples of why we do not wish to be Xians any longer.

 

Thanks for demonstrating why Xianity is garbage. If it makes us like you (as many of us once were), accepting it only leads to ethical and intellectual retardation

[Mankey]

God is Love. God is a jealous God. God is a man of war. -from the bible.

 

Are these hyperbole's?

 

They are either hyperbole or contradictions. Antlerman? RubySera?

 

No matter how you cut it the bibles God is incoherent.

 

....but love is not. G-John and apostle paul both define love.

 

1 John :8-10

God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love:.........that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

 

But the apostle Paul defines love differently than the other bible writer:

1 Corinthians 13:4-8

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.....Love never fails.

 

God IS love. What is Gods love? That we are saved. We will continue to live because of Christs atoning sacrifice....but love as the apostle Paul writes is love also. God IS love. Both writers are inspired by God and so both definitions can't be ignored. Paul's definition must be true also. God IS love and with God all things are possible. (Luke 1:37 For nothing is impossible with God. ) .....and love never fails.

 

But those of us who lost faith are blamed, and accused of never having had faith or never really having loved Jesus. Apostates are slandered.

 

The story of Job never really made sense to me but I put it out of my mind. Still believed, still loved, but was never protected. I know I come off as immature, but I am a tax payer. I grew up in a violent home...and we all believed. I was emotionally abused but we all believed. My mom went through the same....we all believed. She feels guilty about her divorce's. She still believes. I challenge any Christian to cite scripture were woman and children have rights for protection. Instead we see scripture that maintains a hierarchy of obedience with God at the top. God is love , love always protects and it is unfailing....according to scripture. We do not see God's protection in the world or in scripture. Women and children have no rights giving them protection against other believers. Women can not divorce or separate, children must obey their parents. Honor them. No matter what. God is love? Bullshit.

 

1 John :8 God IS love. With God all things are possible. (Luke 1:37 For nothing is impossible with God. ) .....and love never fails.

 

1 Corinthians 13:4-8

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.....Love never fails.

 

Deuteronomy 6:15 "for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land."

 

1 John :8-10 God is love. Love does not envy.

 

Contradiction. In some bibles Paul's expose on love has the word jealous instead of envy. Trickery on the N.I.V.'s part.

 

God is love. Love is patient, kind, not easily angered.

 

Psalm 7:11 God is a righteous judge, a God who expresses his wrath every day.

 

Contradiction.

 

God is love. For God so loved the world...God loves humanity.

 

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.....Love never fails.

 

Exodus 15:3 NIV The LORD is a warrior; the LORD is his name. New King James Version The LORD is a man of war; The LORD is His name.

 

Contradiction.

 

Some Christians do all sorts of mental gymnastics from trying to explain their God coherently to redefining love through scripture.

 

Merriam-Webster

Main Entry: 1love

Pronunciation: 'l&v

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Old English lufu; akin to Old High German luba love, Old English lEof dear, Latin lubEre, libEre to please

1 a (1) : strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties <maternal love for a child> (2) : attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers (3) : affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests <love for his old schoolmates> b : an assurance of love <give her my love>

2 : warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion <love of the sea>

3 a : the object of attachment, devotion, or admiration <baseball was his first love> b (1) : a beloved person : DARLING -- often used as a term of endearment (2) British -- used as an informal term of address

4 a : unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another: as (1) : the fatherly concern of God for humankind (2) : brotherly concern for others b : a person's adoration of God

5 : a god or personification of love

6 : an amorous episode : LOVE AFFAIR

7 : the sexual embrace : COPULATION

8 : a score of zero (as in tennis)

9 capitalized, Christian Science : GOD

- at love : holding one's opponent scoreless in tennis

- in love : inspired by affection

 

I think this definition is more coherent than the mental gynmnastics that Christians try when spoiling a good thing.

 

We can know them by their fruits and this definition is the best, except for the parts about an incoherent being that is mentioned. We know love exists, and we see people from all walks of life expressing love......but we see no God.

 

Nuff said.

[Luke Wolf]

Damn! you have an ugly spirit like that damn ugly picture you posted. I CAN'T STAND LOOKING AT YOU!!! TOO DISGUSTING

Just remember, on the inside, your just as ugly.

[Robbobrob]

God's perfect love didn't work for any of us here (not even the fundie intruder), but this is the example we are to follow.

 

I wonder if the stats were broken down among the Jews (Orthodox vs. the more secular ones) whether the same pattern as seen in Christians would emerge.

[angel.white]

Good post Mankey.

I think this definition is more coherent than the mental gynmnastics that Christians try when spoiling a good thing.

I had a xian who would tell me the OT didn't count when it suited him, and then the NT didn't count when it suited him later, he would tell me the dictionary defined terms wrong, the encyclopedia had incorrect information, and if all else failed, he would say that I was taking a verse out of context because my conclusion differed from his (the logic was that if I were taking it in context, the bible would make sense, therefore I must be taking it out of context).

 

Oh, heres a good example of xian mental gymnastics, when I was debating w/ a xian friend about the bible's sexism, he quoted some guy named josh harris who took the word "equality" and gave it the definition of sexism, and then pointed to that as evidence of women's equality in the bible. (ask for links )

[מה טבו]

I wonder if the stats were broken down among the Jews (Orthodox vs. the more secular ones) whether the same pattern as seen in Christians would emerge.

 

I haven't been able to find any good data on it. I've seen sources cited that the divorce rate among Orthodox Jews is very low (<10%), but I don't know where that study comes from. The divorce rate in the modern state of Israel is pretty high. Divorce has always been allowed in Judaism. While it's not seen as a good thing, it isn't seen as sinful like in Christianity. I don't see why this cultural attitude wouldn't carry over to secular Jews.

 

On the other hand, Orthodox Judaism has a truly horrible tradition of placing the balance of power in marriage and divorce in the hands of the man. Only the man can make the divorce happen - the woman has no say. Given that the gender roles of woman-as-submissive also tend to be enforced in Orthodox marriages, it's no wonder Orthodox men don't often divorce. Who wants to give up a good servant? On the other hand, the wife determines if and when the nookie is dispensed, and adultery is forbidden (masturbation is too, among the Orthodox). So if hubby refuses the divorce, wifey can make his life pretty frustrating.

 

That FUBAR definition of love is a uniquely Christian thing - it has no basis in Christianity's Jewish roots. The Tanakh accepts both love and hate as natural, and you'll see several verses encouraging you to hate so-and-so. The graggers that are used on Purim are to blot out the name of Haman - not exactly an act of love or forgiveness. Ask a rabbi what he thinks of Hitler - you won't hear "love" come out of his mouth (unless it's, "i'd love to shove a pineapple...").

 

"Love your enemies," aside from being just fucking stupid, is a denial of both our humanity and the very nature of enmity. In creating this false universal "love," Christianity denegrates the real thing - and the real thing is one of the most truly beautiful things we have in ourselves. What is friendship if you love your enemy? What is kinship - what is true love - if you love your enemy? This warped idea doesn't stop hate - it just gets it repackaged as a perverse, Christian imitation of love. This is why you will see fundies do the most hateful and horrible things to people whom they swear they love.

 

When you have real love, you know you have love. You don't have to tell yourself it's love, and nobody else has to be convinced either. True love is obvious.

[angel.white]

I haven't been able to find any good data on it. I've seen sources cited that the divorce rate among Orthodox Jews is very low (<10%), but I don't know where that study comes from. The divorce rate in the modern state of Israel is pretty high. Divorce has always been allowed in Judaism. While it's not seen as a good thing, it isn't seen as sinful like in Christianity. I don't see why this cultural attitude wouldn't carry over to secular Jews.

In America, the CDC keeps track.

 

Best report I could find: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/elec_prod...ect/divorce.htm

 

Its a bit old though, I expect if you fish around between cdc.gov and census.gov you might be able to find more up to date or relevant info.