Interesting Vid

[Euthyphro's Thorn]

I know it's naive to assume no such attacks would ever happen if the government changed its foreign policy, but I think the real solution to 9/11 would have been to close up shop in any country we're not wanted in and adopt the type of neutral, introverted foreign policy the founders intended; not entering into military treaties, "avoiding foreign entanglements"--essentially limiting said policy to foreign trade with willing and respectable nations for the benefit of the domestic U.S. economy.

It's never too late to start, imo. Unfortunately, our government doesn't want peace. It wants power and wealth... not for The People, but for themselves.

[Grandpa Harley]

"...our government doesn't want peace. It wants power and wealth... not for The People, but for themselves."

 

That doesn't make then unusual, just politicians...

[Outback Jack]

(Euthy, no need to apologize for quoting. I was just trying to find out if it was done easily. My big quote of you took a whole hour or so. UGH!)

 

Am I misunderstanding your point?

 

Possibly. It could be another irreconcilable difference. They found out about the hijackers on the flights that had crashed because they had already crashed. They had to specifically go to the classified intelligence sources to get them. The list we now use was not available outside of intelligence circles because of the wall erected in 1995. It took 9-11 to get that list declassified.

 

They've had a terrorist watch list for decades. They just don't have it linked up with airline ticket sales.

 

Exactly! See above

 

Warrantless wire taps have been allowed since the FISA act of 1978 and it's not like some rouge cop can just decide to do it without a good reason. Those taps are overseen by the FISA court (and I think, not sure, by a Congressional panel).

 

Governments control minds just as churches do: with fear, intimidation, and empty promises made to gain our trust.

 

Sure, but, unlike religion, that doesn't mean that everything the govt. says is a lie. I just don't understand why people accuse the govt. of complicity in 9-11. Stupidity, blindness, and slothfulness but not complicity.

 

Before you think I'm pissed off at you because of these last few paragraphs...

 

No sweat! Didn't even enter my mind.

[Anad]

The Bush Admin still have gotten Osama Bin Laden after all these years, but I'm not under the impression they ever really tried. They were in too big of a hurry after 9/11 to rush into Iraq.

[Anad]

The Bush Admin still have gotten Osama Bin Laden after all these years, but I'm not under the impression they ever really tried. They were in too big of a hurry after 9/11 to rush into Iraq.

 

Bojrk! That should have read: "The Bush Admin still haven't gotten Osama Bin Laden..."

 

Time for bed.

[HuaiDan]

Yeah really. If it's so easy to find and extradite a nobody on a tax evasion or embezzlement, it shouldn't take a major operation to track down Osama. Been said a billion times before, I'm saying it again. So what are we doing in Afghanistan again?

[Vigile]

Yeah really. If it's so easy to find and extradite a nobody on a tax evasion or embezzlement, it shouldn't take a major operation to track down Osama. Been said a billion times before, I'm saying it again. So what are we doing in Afghanistan again?

 

Shhh.... Don't ask questions degenerate traitor. They are protecting our freedoms. You should be greatful.

[woodsmoke]

I think you're thinking of the Patriot Act. That's an entirely different thing than the wall I mentioned.

 

The wall to separate intelligence and law enforcement was established in 1995. It never existed before then and it was established for dubious reasons. There's no reason to hold it in such high regard. The reason for it was questionable but the effect of it was this: if foreign intelligence sources were aware of a threat, they were not allowed to share that information to those who might be able to stop it.

 

(lets see if I can embed links!)

 

See this article and the memo itself

 

(I think it worked!)

 

Ah, I see. Thanks for the info.

 

I'm still leery of law enforcement having unhindered access to excessive surveillance and intelligence such as the government can collect under the PATRIOT Act, but I can see the logic behind allowing a degree of communication and information-sharing between them for legitimate purposes--so long as there's oversight to ensure those purposes are, in truth, legitimate.

[Euthyphro's Thorn]

Hi Jack,

 

Re: Terrorist suspect lists

 

That was pretty much my point with that. In light of both the apparently imminent threat as well as the ongoing threats, the terrorist suspect list should've been linked up with airline ticket sales before 9/11, just like faulty equipment on an airplane should be fixed before a plane malfunctions and crashes.

 

And it's not like they would have to give every ticket agent the ability to browse the entire list of suspects. It could simply put up a flag whenever someone buys a ticket under one of the names on the list, and if a picture of the suspect is on file, a picture can come up as well. If, when the person comes to board the plane, they don't look like the person in the picture, then they just go about their business like anyone else. If there is no picture, or if the picture does look like them, then airport security can search them like they would randomly search anyone else.

 

An alternative is to have law enforcement (who may even patrol the airport regularly) alerted instead of the ticket agent, and plain-clothes law enforcement can show up at the gate before the plane boards.

 

Re: Warrantless wiretaps

 

Yes, it's legal to wiretap someone before obtaining a warrant in urgent cases, but legally, a warrant must still be obtained within a specified amount of time after the wiretap is in place. The U.S. administration has been bypassing warrants all together, which is why there have been hearings on the matter and so much talk about them online. At least when a warrant is obtained immediately after a wiretap is put in place, there are still checks in place to make sure the taps are there for a good reason. By bypassing warrants completely, the administration can run rampant wiretapping people for simply being an activist or Arab, for example, because the court has no way of knowing who's being tapped.

 

I'm glad you know I'm not pissed at you, lol.

 

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"...our government doesn't want peace. It wants power and wealth... not for The People, but for themselves."

 

That doesn't make then unusual, just politicians...

So unfortunately true, Harley.

 

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Anad and HuaiDan, I'm with you both on this. First Osama was wanted "dead or alive," then later Bush said, "We're just not that worried about him," referring to Osama. Freudian slip, perhaps? I think http://dubyaspeak.com might have an audio clip of it, actually.

 

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LOL Vigile. I run a message board where we trash the Commander Guy left and right, and I've told them if I ever go missing, they'll know why.

 

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Woodsmoke, the problem is making sure the info is obtained legitimately, only used for legitimate purposes, and handled responsibly in general. Even my idea of electronically linking the terrorist watch list to ticket sales would need close oversight, to make sure people aren't being whisked off to overseas detention camps (read "black zones" aka torture camps) due to mistaken identity, which has already happened if I'm not mistaken.