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Evolution


Guest thenotchosenone
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LMAO! Almost every reference on that list is a creationist website, and I see a LOT of answersingenesis.org links in there. It's like fundies are living in an entirely different dimension or something, where the laws of nature are different.

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"It's like fundies are living in an entirely different dimension or something, where the laws of nature are different." Absolutly right, Euthyphro.

 

That website was a hoot! I could not bear to read it all, just parts. I already know the whole bunch of garbage. I attended some classes which one of the folks in the "reference section" was teaching. He was a dangerous man, nutty as a fruitcake, but very logical and totally mistaken.

 

Have you heard this one? Switching channels tonight I landed upon Trinity Broadcasting and some guy was saying that hell has been discovered-- its a black hole! He was saying in a black hole matter still survives, but it cannot escape, a perfect definition of hell! WTF! I always thought the perfect definition of hell was the planet Venus!

 

There was also the usual ridiculous usage of quantum theory to justify the existance of the eternal soul. It was so sickening I couldn't watch any more. Quantum physics can be used to explain all manner of nonsense by folks who have no idea what quantum physics really is!

 

These folks make up their own science, using some valid discoveries melded with their nonsense to fit their creationist, Bible scheme. It would be hilarious except that so many are deceived by utter foolishness.

 

Pat

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Have you heard this one? Switching channels tonight I landed upon Trinity Broadcasting and some guy was saying that hell has been discovered-- its a black hole! He was saying in a black hole matter still survives, but it cannot escape, a perfect definition of hell! WTF! I always thought the perfect definition of hell was the planet Venus!

"A" Black Hole!?! The problem is that there's billions of them, if not trillions and more, so which one of those Black Hole Hells is the true one??? Maybe there's one for each religion? So the trinity guy will go to the one in the center of the Andromeda galaxy, and we can spend eternity in another... oh my furry cute bunny gosh, how stupid can people be?

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...It's like fundies are living in an entirely different dimension or something...

 

Whatcha mean, "like"? :HaHa:

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Hansolo: Trinity guy did not specifiy which black hole in particular was hell. He had a stupid, simplistic looking diagram of a black hole stuck on an easel that he was referring to. Indeed, he talked as if there were just one black hole! You should have seen the stupid looking set he was standing in with artificial trees, torches, really weird stuff, like he was standing in the middle of a fake forest.

 

Then Trinity guy had to go on to explain why quantum physics supports the idea of a "soul". I had simply had enough at that point and did not listen further, wishing Trinity guy would himself disappear into a black hole immediately.

 

Pat

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Another problem with the Black Hole Hell is: I don't think Trinity Guy ever heard about quantum tunneling and how a black hole actually break apart over time. Black holes aren't eternal according to Stephen Hawkings.

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Another problem with the Black Hole Hell is: I don't think Trinity Guy ever heard about quantum tunneling and how a black hole actually break apart over time. Black holes aren't eternal according to Stephen Hawkings.

 

Hansolo:

 

I somehow doubt that Trinity Guy was up on the latest cosmological theories of Hawking. Yeah, if black holes aren't eternal that kind of destroys the hell theory, since we are supposed to burn forever.

 

Trinity Guy opened his wonderful little talk by saying he got a group of athiests to agree that matter is eternal, it is never destroyed. Then he said he went on to "astound" the athiests by claiming he believed the same thing! Then he went on to the destiny of these eternal souls in hell, which according to him, is perfectly described scientifically by a black hole. Of course, no real explanation of what "matter" is or how it magically is transformed into something called a "soul".

 

Have you ever heard such nonsense? I hate it when they use facts and twist them to uphold strange, repulsive and bizzare ideas found in the Bible.

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I somehow doubt that Trinity Guy was up on the latest cosmological theories of Hawking. Yeah, if black holes aren't eternal that kind of destroys the hell theory, since we are supposed to burn forever.

Considering that Hawkings came up with the theories quite a while ago, I'd say the Trinity Guy is maybe 40 years behind or so. :)

 

Trinity Guy opened his wonderful little talk by saying he got a group of athiests to agree that matter is eternal, it is never destroyed.

You sure he said that too? Amazing. Not even correct there! :HaHa: If he got the atheists to agree, then those atheists were misinformed too. Matter can be destroyed, it is energy that can't be destroyed. People tend to do that mistake. It's like the "Human from Monkeys" argument against Evolution, which is also a misunderstanding. They destroy matter, and have photo evidence of it, on a regular basis in the particle accelerators.

 

When it comes to chemistry and you use the laws of conservation of mass, then matter cannot be destroyed, but when it comes to nuclear processes or physics then matter can be destroyed, but then the conservation of energy is the law instead. (At least that how I understand it. I wonder how a nuclear reactor works, unless matter is converted into energy? Does energy just get sucked in through a chemical process, or is energy created from ex nihilo just to conserve the matter?)

 

And if the soul is matter, at what point does the embryo get its soul? Which part of the diet is it that eventually is reformed into the soul-matter in the baby?

 

So much silliness and so little time.

 

Then he said he went on to "astound" the athiests by claiming he believed the same thing! Then he went on to the destiny of these eternal souls in hell, which according to him, is perfectly described scientifically by a black hole. Of course, no real explanation of what "matter" is or how it magically is transformed into something called a "soul".

It's too sad. So his misconception of "eternal matter" is the same as "eternal soul"? What a confused human being.

 

Have you ever heard such nonsense? I hate it when they use facts and twist them to uphold strange, repulsive and bizzare ideas found in the Bible.

Well, it isn't even facts since he completely misrepresent them and got the "facts" completely wrong. It's like me saying that Christians believe in human sacrifice and they slaughter thousands of innocent sheep each year. That would be a misrepresentation of what they claim to believe, but hey, that's what they do to everyone else, so why can't we?

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Odd coincidence, I'm listening to 'The Universe in a Nutshell' in the car and it's currently covering information loss and black hole evaporation... :)

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Evolution OMFG i can't believe the crazy world we live in. Just for laughs look at their references at the bottom of the page

That they bring up the bacterial flagellum as a counter argument to Evolution shows how little they keep up with science. It has been debunked. The genetic code for the flagellum can be reduced with (I think it was) up to 30 or 40 genes, and what it becomes is not a flagellum but something called type III protein secretion system which exists (IIRC) in E. Coli. Only by searching on Google one can find articles that explain the evolution of the flagellum, and the reason why they don't is because they're lazy or intentionally ignorant.

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Whatever happened to the 'hell is in the center of the earth' theory? Now they're trying to steal black holes!!! Yeah, the old book I have by Hawkings says that there are emissions from them and that at the end of its life the black hole will disappear from our region of the universe ('A Brief History of Time' 1996). I haven't paid attention in a while, their theories are always changing...Hawkings should update the book again.

 

Someone should let the Trinity Guy know this, if his black hole hell breaks apart then Hell is not eternal...

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Whatever happened to the 'hell is in the center of the earth' theory? Now they're trying to steal black holes!!! Yeah, the old book I have by Hawkings says that there are emissions from them and that at the end of its life the black hole will disappear from our region of the universe ('A Brief History of Time' 1996). I haven't paid attention in a while, their theories are always changing...Hawkings should update the book again.

 

Someone should let the Trinity Guy know this, if his black hole hell breaks apart then Hell is not eternal...

 

To Kirangel: Yes. Someone should let him know. Unfortunately there was nobody else there to enlighten him. He was giving a lecture on TV. Hell is the center of the earth theory has evidently been superceded.

 

Hansolo, you are obviously more informed on physics than I am as far as the matter, energy thing, but even I could see the stupidity of equating a black hole with hell. As well as it not being eternal, wouldn't everything be torn apart at the event horizon? What exactly is a soul, anyway? Does anyone know?

 

Yes, Trinity Guy actually said this stuff about matter being eternal, and because of that, souls exist eternally. Sorry, I did not waste any more time listening to him to hear the rest of his stupid argument. True, it might have been entertaining, but I think of all the folks that are deceived by these things.

 

This Trinity Broadcasting Network has the most ridiculous creationist programming I have ever seen. One time I saw some Australian guy was trying to prove how dinosaur T Rex was a vegetarian. Yeah, sure, with a mouth full of steak knives. I kid you not.

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Hansolo, you are obviously more informed on physics than I am as far as the matter, energy thing, but even I could see the stupidity of equating a black hole with hell. As well as it not being eternal, wouldn't everything be torn apart at the event horizon? What exactly is a soul, anyway? Does anyone know?

No one knows what a 'soul' is, since we're not even sure there is anything we can call a 'soul'. And regarding the physics and matter, it's pretty simple, light is pure energy and heat is pure energy, now where does the sun get energy and heat from if it basically only consists of matter? Somewhere matter has to be transformed into energy, the famous E=mc^2 wasn't just a random idea but based on the factual connection between matter and energy.

 

The black hole would break apart over trillions of years, because of the probability factors in quantum mechanics. Basically it is that a particle can not be forced to stop moving, if it is the probability for it to exist outside the restraint increases and the particle will suddenly make a quantum leap to the other position, outside the restraint. A black hole will collapse until almost zero kelvin, and you will have particles tunneling out and escape the black hole. This is the same phenomenon that currently puts limits on the size of electronic chips, which also limits the speed on the computers, and that's why you now see the new technology of dual core and quad core being popular, because they've gone as far as they can with one single CPU. Any smaller lines in the CPU, and the signals will jump (tunnel). (At least that is how I understand things, but I can, as always, be wrong on some of the details.)

 

Yes, Trinity Guy actually said this stuff about matter being eternal, and because of that, souls exist eternally. Sorry, I did not waste any more time listening to him to hear the rest of his stupid argument. True, it might have been entertaining, but I think of all the folks that are deceived by these things.

 

This Trinity Broadcasting Network has the most ridiculous creationist programming I have ever seen. One time I saw some Australian guy was trying to prove how dinosaur T Rex was a vegetarian. Yeah, sure, with a mouth full of steak knives. I kid you not.

It probably was Ken (Kenneth) Ham. The guy who runs Answer in Genesis (.org) website and started the Creationist Museum, and also I think is getting sued by his home church in Australia.

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No one knows what a 'soul' is, since we're not even sure there is anything we can call a 'soul'. And regarding the physics and matter, it's pretty simple, light is pure energy and heat is pure energy, now where does the sun get energy and heat from if it basically only consists of matter? Somewhere matter has to be transformed into energy, the famous E=mc^2 wasn't just a random idea but based on the factual connection between matter and energy.

 

It probably was Ken (Kenneth) Ham. The guy who runs Answer in Genesis (.org) website and started the Creationist Museum, and also I think is getting sued by his home church in Australia.

 

 

Hansolo: Thanks for claifying the matter/energy connection. I see now that Trinity Guy was in error about that part of his program also.

 

You are probalby right that it was Ken Ham doing the dinosaur progarm. I seem to recall he had some connection with a creationist museum.

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Hansolo: Thanks for claifying the matter/energy connection. I see now that Trinity Guy was in error about that part of his program also.

When I read my own writings again, I'm not sure it was extremely clear... I just try my best...

 

You are probalby right that it was Ken Ham doing the dinosaur progarm. I seem to recall he had some connection with a creationist museum.

Since Kent Hovind is gone from the scene, it's mostly Ken Ham and the WayofTheMaster guys that lead the debate on the Creationist/IntelligentDesign side. Ken ham got a pretty decent education, from what I seen, and yet quite confused about the concepts he's arguing against. I think he is intentionally trying to decieve people, and not like most Christians just being ignorant and uneducated. It wouldn't surprise me if Ken Ham is charged with fraud or something in the future. The way he twist things, it can only be intentionally, just like Hovind. (charged and convicted of tax evasion)

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what happened to Hovind? I'm more interested in End times than origins...

Oh, you dont' know? He was taken to court last year, and I don't remember the sentence, but he got a pretty big conviction slapped in his face, and his wifey too. Mostly for tax fraud. http://www.religionnewsblog.com/16451/kent...y-on-all-counts

 

And Ken Ham is being sued too: http://theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,2...06-2702,00.html

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And Ken Ham is being sued too: http://theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,2...06-2702,00.html

 

Good.

 

"Trinity Guy's" real name is Dr. Carl Baugh. He is responsible in some capacity for a creationist museum in Texas. I looked him up online. He has a website linked to that museum. I can only wonder where someone like this gets a doctorate.

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I tried to get in on a discussion but it is locked. I wonder why? This jokebook is called "The Trustworthy Encyclopedia". Go to the Home Page and you see the daily bible verse and news about christianity. Obviously a religious version of the wikipedia, and of course not biased in favour of religion.

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I love the part where it says creationists have many quotes to prove the fossil record is incomplete. Quotes!?!?!?!?!

Quotes are interesting, sometimes amusing, and usually enlightening with respect to someones position on something. They are not proof! The only thing you can prove with a quote is that someone thinks someone said this at some time. It doesn't even prove that the person said it. The whole arguement seems to boil down to;

 

Creationist: I've just discovered you're wrong, look...

 

Scientist: Thats just a piece of paper with "your wrong" written on it (misspelling deliberate)

 

Creationist: but look, it's written down and everything!

 

 

 

Side note: I almost laughed out loud, considering the point I'm making, as "written" looked a bit wierd so I googled it (to check the spelling) and the first few of sites are all christian!

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